Marriage equality

theophilus · Feb 15, 2014

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17 ESV

The nation of Israel was established by God to be the means of bringing Christ into the world so that he could atone for our sins by his death. God gave Israel a system of laws that included animal sacrifices, dietary laws, and the observance of special days. These laws were symbols of what Christ would do; they have served their purpose we are no longer required to follow them.

Today there is another God given practice that is a symbol of something that is still in the future: marriage.

Marriage does serve a purpose in this life.

Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth.
Malachi 2:15 ESV

But it does more than that. It is also a symbol of the relationship between God and his worshippers.

For your Maker is your husband,
the LORD of hosts is his name;
and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
the God of the whole earth he is called.
Isaiah 54:5 ESV

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Ephesians 5:22-24 ESV

Like the Old Testament ceremonial laws it is shadow of something that is still in the future.

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,
“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—
for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Revelation 19:6-8 ESV

The Bride spoken of here is the Church, which is made up of all whose sins have been forgiven because they put their faith in Christ. This is the real Marriage; the marriages that exist today are only pictures to help us understand what it will be like.

Many people never marry. Some of them are disappointed and feel that failure to marry means that their lives are failures. If you are one of these people remember that marriage in this life is only a picture of something better. If you put your faith in Christ you will experience the reality and in the end the fact that you missed out on the shadow won’t matter.

Some people don’t marry because they are gay and unable to be part of a heterosexual relationship. Advocates of legalizing same sex marriage claim that doing so would establish a state of marriage equality between gays and straights but they overlook one thing. When our relationship with God is compared with marriage God is the male partner and his followers are the female. A union between two men or two women isn’t an accurate picture of this relationship.

Marriage equality is a goal that is impossible to achieve in this life but for Christians it will be a reality in the next one. All believers, whether they are gay or straight, will be part of the true marriage which will take place when Christ returns to the earth. The best way to promote marriage equality for gays is to tell them how to be saved so they will be part of that future marriage.

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 16, 2014

theophilus said:
Marriage equality is a goal that is impossible to achieve in this life but for Christians it will be a reality in the next one. All believers, whether they are gay or straight, will be part of the true marriage which will take place when Christ returns to the earth.

Homosexuals that believe can be saved when Christ returns?

Wormwood · Feb 16, 2014

I think I understand what the OP is trying to say, but I disagree with the premise. A Christian isn't "gay" anymore than a Christian is defined by any behavior or desire that is contrary to the will of God. We need to stop speaking in accordance with how the culture defines things. A Christian is a new creation. Personal struggles and desires are battles we all face, but we are not defined by them as believers.

Moreover, the issue in marital headship is not one of "equality." Headship does not mean the wife is unequal with the husband but that the roles are different. Jesus was submissive to the Father, but it does not mean Jesus and the Father are unequal. The triune God functions in various roles and our marriages are modeled to reflect God. People need to stop thinking in terms of submission being a negative thing. Perhaps this is why there is so much fighting and division in our Christian homes and churches.

theophilus · Feb 16, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
Homosexuals that believe can be saved when Christ returns?

They can be saved now just as any other sinner can.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)

Some people who are gay but who also believe in Christ choose not to act on their sexual desires but to remain celibate. Here is information about a book that one of them wrote.

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/washed-and-waiting/

Here is a site that is whose purpose is to help people like this:

http://truefreedomtrust.co.uk/

TfT is a confidential Christian support and teaching ministry that holds to authentically biblical teaching on sexuality. We offer support to individuals who experience same-sex attraction, but who choose not to embrace a gay identity or to pursue a same-sex relationship because of convictions of faith. We also support families, friends and church leaders of those who experience same-sex attraction.

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 16, 2014

theophilus said:
They can be saved now just as any other sinner can.

Some people who are gay but who also believe in Christ choose not to act on their sexual desires but to remain celibate. Here is information about a book that one of them wrote.

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/washed-and-waiting/

Here is a site that is whose purpose is to help people like this:

http://truefreedomtrust.co.uk/

I still do not see how one can have homosexual tendencies yet be a saved believer in Christ. Whether he/she acts on those tendencies or not, homosexuality is still wrong. In their belief, even if they are celibate, they think nothing would be wrong with homosexuality when in reality it is a sin. So their belief system would be wrong being based on the false idea that nothing is wrong with homosexuality whether it is acted upon or not.

7angels · Feb 17, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
I still do not see how one can have homosexual tendencies yet be a saved believer in Christ. Whether he/she acts on those tendencies or not, homosexuality is still wrong. In their belief, even if they are celibate, they think nothing would be wrong with homosexuality when in reality it is a sin. So their belief system would be wrong being based on the false idea that nothing is wrong with homosexuality whether it is acted upon or not.

it happens just like people who are porn addicts. there are christians who are porn addicts. does this make them nonchristians because they are willfully committing adultry with porn? i know christians who are struggling with this problem. it is the intent of the heart that God looks at. God does not look at any one sin being any worse then another sin. according to God's word it is us that rejects God and not God rejecting us. thus it comes down to how much we willfully sin because it is never God who rejects us but our continued sinning that hardens our heart until sooner or later we cannot hear God anymore.

God bless

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 17, 2014

7angels said:
it happens just like people who are porn addicts. there are christians who are porn addicts. does this make them nonchristians because they are willfully committing adultry with porn? i know christians who are struggling with this problem. it is the intent of the heart that God looks at. God does not look at any one sin being any worse then another sin. according to God's word it is us that rejects God and not God rejecting us. thus it comes down to how much we willfully sin because it is never God who rejects us but our continued sinning that hardens our heart until sooner or later we cannot hear God anymore.

God bless

1 Jn 3:8,9 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Note that the two underlined verbs are present tense denoting a Christian CANNOT CONTINUE being a porn addict and be saved. It is a sin he must repent of or else perish, Lk 1:3,5 Christian do commit sins on occasions and must repent of those sins but a Christain "CANNOT" continue in a lifestyle of living in sin else he is of the devil. And God can and has disinherited His chosen, Numbers 14:12, Romans chapters 9-11.

Harry3142 · Feb 17, 2014

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our hearts.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (I John 1:8-2:2,NIV)

Those who claim to be without sin are in reality embracing the most dangerous sin of all, namely, the sin of Pride. The truth is that just as there are many people, there are also many different spiritual 'Achilles heels'. God does not order us to be sinless; he knows better. But he does expect us to recognize our failings and own up to them.

Wormwood · Feb 17, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
1 Jn 3:8,9 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Note that the two underlined verbs are present tense denoting a Christian CANNOT CONTINUE being a porn addict and be saved. It is a sin he must repent of or else perish, Lk 1:3,5 Christian do commit sins on occasions and must repent of those sins but a Christain "CANNOT" continue in a lifestyle of living in sin else he is of the devil. And God can and has disinherited His chosen, Numbers 14:12, Romans chapters 9-11.

I think we need to keep those verses in context. 1 John is referring to antichrists who are leading believers astray by false doctrine. That doctrine essentially seemed to teach that it was okay to sin since what was done with the body did not effect the spirit. I don't think it is teaching that a believer cannot continue to struggle with sin (note: struggling and indulging are very different things). Of course we should all expect victory, but that does not mean there will not be times of prolonged struggle.

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 17, 2014

Harry3142 said:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our hearts.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (I John 1:8-2:2,NIV)

Those who claim to be without sin are in reality embracing the most dangerous sin of all, namely, the sin of Pride. The truth is that just as there are many people, there are also many different spiritual 'Achilles heels'. God does not order us to be sinless; he knows better. But he does expect us to recognize our failings and own up to them.

The Christian is "holy and without blame" Eph 1:4, spotless and blameless, 2 Pet 3:14.

God does not expect the Christian to be able to be perfectly sinless on his own, so how can the Christain be spotless, blameless and holy? By being "in Christ" where Christ's blood continues to cleanse away all sin, 1 Jn 1:7 but that requires the Christian to continually walking in the light. And one addicted to porn is not walking in the ight whereby Christ blood can clease away all sin therefore the porn addict is not holy, spotless and blameless. Walking in the light requires repentance of sins.

Wormwood said:
I think we need to keep those verses in context. 1 John is referring to antichrists who are leading believers astray by false doctrine. That doctrine essentially seemed to teach that it was okay to sin since what was done with the body did not effect the spirit. I don't think it is teaching that a believer cannot continue to struggle with sin (note: struggling and indulging are very different things). Of course we should all expect victory, but that does not mean there will not be times of prolonged struggle.

The particular verse I had under consideration says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

So those "born of God" are under consideration, not anti-Christ's. Those born of God "doth not commit sin" not meaning, of course, they will be perfectly sinless but they cannot continue to live a lifestyle in sin.

Wormwood · Feb 17, 2014

I am not questioning the issue of those who are born of God. The issue is what exactly is meant by "continue in sin." In the context, it appears there was a teaching that knowledge from the Christ was all that was necessary for salvation. What one did with their body was immaterial. I believe John is refuting this teaching. That is my point.

theophilus · Feb 18, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
I still do not see how one can have homosexual tendencies yet be a saved believer in Christ.

Having homosexual tendencies simply means that someone is tempted to commit a certain kind of sin. Like anyone else who is tempted he must choose whether to resist the temptation or to yield to it. He is only guilty of sin if he gives in to the temptation. Being tempted isn't a sin. Here is a more detailed explanation of what I mean.

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/angel-of-light/

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/born-that-way/

Suhar · Feb 18, 2014

What happened to:

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-28.htm

If homosexual lusts after a man, even if he does not actually engages in sodomy he still sins. Right?

theophilus · Feb 19, 2014

Suhar said:
What happened to:

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-28.htm

If homosexual lusts after a man, even if he does not actually engages in sodomy he still sins. Right?

If he lusts after a man he sins; if he is tempted to lust but resists the temptation he doesn't sin.

Suhar · Feb 19, 2014

theophilus said:
If he lusts after a man he sins; if he is tempted to lust but resists the temptation he doesn't sin.

So if I am tempted to shoot somebody who cut me of on the freeway then I am a murderer?

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 19, 2014

Wormwood said:
I am not questioning the issue of those who are born of God. The issue is what exactly is meant by "continue in sin." In the context, it appears there was a teaching that knowledge from the Christ was all that was necessary for salvation. What one did with their body was immaterial. I believe John is refuting this teaching. That is my point.

Yes, the Christian "doth not commit sin" and "cannot sin" relates to a Christain's lifestyle in that he cannot continue to live in sin and be saved.

There were Gnositcs John speaks about, Jude also in Jude 1:4, who erroneously thought they could live in sin and that sin would only affect the flesh but not the spirit.

As pertaining to the OP, can one be an "inactive" homosexual yet at the same time a saved believer in Christ? I say 'no".

Can I continue to lust, [not act on that lust], but can I lust in my heart after women and be a saved believer in Christ?

theophilus said:
Having homosexual tendencies simply means that someone is tempted to commit a certain kind of sin. Like anyone else who is tempted he must choose whether to resist the temptation or to yield to it. He is only guilty of sin if he gives in to the temptation. Being tempted isn't a sin. Here is a more detailed explanation of what I mean.

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/angel-of-light/

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/born-that-way/

My point is that I can lust after a woman and be tempted to act on that lust, but the lust is still sinful.

Homosexuality is always wrong, whether acted upon or not.

Heterosexaulity is not necessarily wrong if acted upon within marriage but is wrong outside of marriage when man lusts after a woman or vice versa or commits the act with a partner unmarried to.

I guess my main point is that the act does not have to be committed for something to be a sin, just the thought or intent can be wrong. In Matt 5:21ff the difference bewteen the law of Moses and Christ's law is that the act had to be committed under the law for it to be wrong but under Chris's NT just the thought or intent can be wrong:

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Suhar said:
What happened to:

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-28.htm

If homosexual lusts after a man, even if he does not actually engages in sodomy he still sins. Right?

Right.

theophilus said:
If he lusts after a man he sins; if he is tempted to lust but resists the temptation he doesn't sin.

I would say there is nothing wrong with being tempted for Christ was Himself tempted by Satan but resisted that temptation. Yet Jesus's temptation came from without not from within Himself...."For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

Homosexual tendencies comes from within one's own heart and what is in the heart (homosexuality tendency/fornication) that defiles.

But how can a man have a homosexual tendency yet never think about homosexuality? Is not the thought/tendency just as wrong as the act even if he resists to act upon the thought/tendency?

Suhar said:
So if I am tempted to shoot somebody who cut me of on the freeway then I am a murderer?

"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:..."

theophilus · Feb 20, 2014

Here are some answers to questions about homosexuality from someone who was once a practicing homosexual but who is now a Christian.

http://www.christopheryuan.com/mobile/faqs.html

Elizabeth · Feb 24, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
I still do not see how one can have homosexual tendencies yet be a saved believer in Christ. Whether he/she acts on those tendencies or not, homosexuality is still wrong. In their belief, even if they are celibate, they think nothing would be wrong with homosexuality when in reality it is a sin. So their belief system would be wrong being based on the false idea that nothing is wrong with homosexuality whether it is acted upon or not.

You're right. Homosexuality is an abomination (Romans 1). Take a look at this video. It's very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kcacw2jnDMw

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Marriage equality

theophilus

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