Retrobyter concerning All Israel???

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guysmith

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Shalom Retrobyter,

Paul stated, in most English translations of Romans 11:26, that ALL Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion;he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

However, he clarified in Romans 9:27 that not every Israeli will be saved, that only the "remnant" will be saved.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Obviously, not every Israeli will be saved. These two verses seem to contradict each other. Could ALL also be translated to mean "only" or "alone"? Could you shed some light on this?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 

Arnie Manitoba

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I think you will find the answer in Romans 9: 6-8

"All Israel" can refer to all the descendents of Israel (Abraham) .... which today includes Islam (through Ishmael)

It is only the "Israel" descended from Issac that will (all) be saved
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, guysmith.

guysmith said:
Shalom Retrobyter,

Paul stated, in most English translations of Romans 11:26, that ALL Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion;he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

However, he clarified in Romans 9:27 that not every Israeli will be saved, that only the "remnant" will be saved.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Obviously, not every Israeli will be saved. These two verses seem to contradict each other. Could ALL also be translated to mean "only" or "alone"? Could you shed some light on this?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Sure, but it may take a paradigm shift.

In the first place, remember that Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) prophesied during the latter part of the 700th century B.C. because he starts his book this way:

Isaiah 1:1
1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
NIV


`Uziyaahuw, Yowtaam, Aachaaz, and Ychizqiyaahuw were some of the last kings of the Southern Kingdom of Y'hudah before they were taken captive to Bavel (Babylon). So, to what generations of Isra'el was Yesha`yahu's prophecy addressed? While some portions of his prophecy may transcend his period as universal truths about the distant future, some portions of what he wrote were addressed SPECIFICALLY to those generations and should NOT be interpreted as universally applicable.

Secondly, one should be sure of the terminology. "Saved" in the Scriptures, particularly in the prophecies, is NOT about one's standing with God!!! It's about DELIVERANCE or RESCUE!!! When the Scriptures are talking about one's standing with God, the CORRECT terminology is to be "justified by God." So, one must ask himself or herself, "Am I correctly understanding this passage?" when that passage contains the words "salvation," "save," "saves," or "saved." Nine times out of ten, a modern-day Christian WON'T correctly understand it! That's unfortunate because it means that that Christian will be "spinning his or her wheels," trying to make the passage fit into his or her system of theology. The Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) CAN help one to learn what He wants him or her to learn, but if there is a preconceived system of theology to overcome first, then He has that obstacle in His way. The Christian would be better as a "tabula rasa" than to have such a preconceived system.

One must SEVER the umbilical cord between the word "saved" and the concept of being "born again." They are NOT THE SAME!!!

"Being justified by God" is the same as "being born again."
"Being saved" is the same as "being rescued" or "being delivered!"

As I recently said to Poppin, one has to realize that one has a faulty view on what a "remnant" is if one FAILS to recognize that GROWTH occurs after God has disciplined His people. Think of it as pruning roses in the autumn for winter. Branches are lopped off so that new growth will have plenty of room to grow in the spring! And, when it grows back, it is fuller and healthier than before. People, too, like plants, are NOT static! A remnant doesn't STAY a remnant! It grows back with time, literally, as children are born and the people multiply!

The "Remnant" is NOT a group of people different than the people from whom they came! They are the SAME PEOPLE, just fewer of them! They are the "left-overs," the "scraps," the "crumbs!"

So, when Yesha`yahu said,

Isaiah 10:22
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
KJV


quoted by Paul in his letter to the Romans,

Romans 9:27
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
KJV


it would be wise to go back and read the context of what Paul quoted!

Isaiah 10-11
10:1 Woe to those who enact unjust decrees
and draft oppressive legislation
2 to deprive the impoverished of justice
and rob my people’s poor of their rights,
looting widows and preying on orphans!
3 What will you do on the day of punishment,
when calamity comes from afar?
To whom will you flee for help?
Where will you leave your wealth,
4 so as not to squat among the prisoners
or fall among the slain?

Even after all this, his anger remains,
his upraised hand still threatens.

5 “Oh Ashur, the rod expressing my anger!
The club in their hands is my fury!
6 I am sending him against a hypocritical nation,
ordering him to march against a people who enrage me,
to take the spoil and the plunder
and trample them down like mud in the street.
7 That is not what Ashur intends,
that is not what they think;
rather, they mean to destroy,
to cut down nation after nation.
8 For [their king] says,
‘Aren’t all my commanders kings?
9 Hasn’t Kalno [suffered] like Kark’mish,
Hamat like Arpad,
Shomron like Dammesek?
10 Just as my hand reached the kingdoms of non-gods,
with more images than in Yerushalayim and Shomron;
11 so won’t I do to Yerushalayim and her non-gods
what I did to Shomron and her idols?’”

12 Therefore when Adonai has done everything he intends to do to Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim, “I will punish the king of Ashur for the boasting that comes from his proud heart and from reveling in his arrogant looks. 13 For he says,
“‘With my own strong arm I have done this,
and with my wisdom, because I’m so clever!
I erased the boundaries between peoples,
I plundered their stores for the future;
as a mighty man, I subjugated the inhabitants.
14 My hand found the riches of the peoples like a nest;
and as one gathers abandoned eggs,
I gathered the whole earth!
Not one wing fluttered,
not one beak opened or let out a chirp!’”
15 Should the axe glorify itself
over the one who chops with it?
Should the saw magnify itself
over the one who moves it?
It’s as if a stick could wave
the hand that raises it up,
or as if a wooden staff could lift
[a person, who is] not made of wood.
16 Therefore the Lord, Adonai-Tzva’ot,
will send leanness to his well-fed ones;
and in place of his glory,
a fire will be kindled that will burn and burn.
17 The light of Isra’el will become a fire
and his Holy One a flame,
burning and devouring
his thorns and briars in a single day.
18 The glory of his forest
and of his fertile land
he will consume body and soul,
like an invalid wasting away.
19 So few forest trees will remain
that a child could list them.
20 On that day the remnant of Isra’el,
those of the house of Ya‘akov who escaped,
will no longer rely
on the man who struck them down,
but will truly rely on Adonai,
the Holy One of Isra’el.
21 A remnant will return,
the remnant of Ya‘akov,
to the mighty God.
22 For, although your people, Isra’el,
are like the sand of the sea,
only a remnant of them will return.
Destruction is decreed, overflowing with justice.
23 Adonai Elohim-Tzva’ot
will bring about this decreed destruction
throughout all the land.
24 Therefore Adonai Elohim-Tzva’ot says:
“My people living in Tziyon,
don’t be afraid of Ashur,
even when he strikes you with a stick
and raises his staff against you,
the way it was in Egypt.
25 For in but a little while, my fury will end;
and my anger will have destroyed them.”
26 Adonai-Tzva’ot will wield a whip against them, as he did when striking Midyan at the Rock of ‘Orev; as his staff was over the sea, he will raise it, the way it was in Egypt.
27 On that day his burden will fall from your shoulders
and his yoke from your neck;
the yoke will be destroyed
by your prosperity.
28 He has come to ‘Ayat
and passed through Migron.
He has stored his equipment at Mikhmas.
29 They have crossed the pass,
then lodged at Geva.
Ramah is shaking,
Giv‘at-Sha’ul has fled.
30 Cry, shriek, Bat-Gallim!
Listen, Layish! Poor ‘Anatot!
31 Madmenah is in flight,
The people of Gevim take cover.
32 This very day he will stop at Nov;
and he will shake his fist
at the mountain of the daughter of Tziyon,
at the hill of Yerushalayim.
33 See how Adonai Elohim-Tzva’ot
lops off the branches with terrible violence!
The ones standing highest are chopped down,
the lofty are laid low.
34 He will hack down the forest underbrush with an axe,
and the L’vanon in its splendor falls.
11:1 But a branch will emerge from the trunk of Yishai,
a shoot will grow from his roots.
2 The Spirit of Adonai will rest on him,
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and power,
the Spirit of knowledge and fearing Adonai
3 he will be inspired by fearing Adonai.
He will not judge by what his eyes see
or decide by what his ears hear,
4 but he will judge the impoverished justly;
he will decide fairly for the humble of the land.
He will strike the land with a rod from his mouth
and slay the wicked with a breath from his lips.
5 Justice will be the belt around his waist,
faithfulness the sash around his hips.
6 The wolf will live with the lamb;
the leopard lie down with the kid;
calf, young lion and fattened lamb together,
with a little child to lead them.
7 Cow and bear will feed together,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 An infant will play on a cobra’s hole,
a toddler put his hand in a viper’s nest.
9 They will not hurt or destroy
anywhere on my holy mountain,
for the earth will be as full
of the knowledge of Adonai
as water covering the sea.
10 On that day the root of Yishai,
which stands as a banner for the peoples —
the Goyim will seek him out,
and the place where he rests will be glorious.
11 On that day Adonai will raise his hand
again, a second time,
to reclaim the remnant of his people who remain
from Ashur, Egypt, Patros,
Ethiopia, ‘Eilam, Shin‘ar,
Hamat and the islands in the sea.
12 He will hoist a banner for the Goyim,
assemble the dispersed of Isra’el,
and gather the scattered of Y’hudah
from the four corners of the earth.
13 Efrayim’s jealousy will cease —
those who harass Y’hudah will be cut off,
Efrayim will stop envying Y’hudah,
and Y’hudah will stop provoking Efrayim.
14 They will swoop down on the flank of the P’lishtim to the west.
Together they will pillage the people to the east —
they will put out their hand over Edom and Mo’av,
and the people of ‘Amon will obey them.
15 Adonai will dry up the gulf
of the Egyptian Sea.
He will shake his hand over the [Euphrates] River
to bring a scorching wind,
dividing it into seven streams
and enabling people to cross dryshod.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
who are still left from Ashur,
just as there was for Isra’el
when he came out from the land of Egypt.
CJB

First, one should notice that Isra'el mentioned here is in contrast to Y'hudah (Judah); so, Isra'el is the NORTHERN kingdom when Isra'el was divided before either went into captivity. However, Yesha`yahu is describing how God is USING Ashur or Asshur or Assyria as a weapon to accomplish his punishment of the northern kingdom of Isra'el. And, he also says that Adonai tells him to say to those living in Tsiyown (Zion), the southern kingdom of Y'hudah (Judah), not to fear Asshur, for God will not let him harm Y'hudah. God will lay them low before they can do anything to Y'hudah.

Second, chapter 11 goes into the future and talks about the "Branch" (Hebrew: Neetser, from which we get the word "Nazarene") that grows from the roots of Yishai (Jesse), and verses 1 and 2 were already fulfilled during Yeshua`s first coming. (See Romans 15:12.) However, from verses 3 onward, these won't happen until they happen literally when Yeshua` comes the second time.

So now, let's go back and review these two verses in context and with "saved" replaced with "rescued." Also, let's put the two in the correct order. I'm also going to use the NIV for the sake of clarity in the English language:

Romans 9:19-33
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes (such as a stylish vase) and some for common use (such as a latrine)?
22 (So) What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 (So) What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:


"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," (Hosea 2:23)
26 and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" (Hosea 1:10)

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be rescued.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality." (Isaiah 10:22, 23)

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah." (Isaiah 1:9)

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." (Isaiah 8:14; 28:16)
NIV


Romans 11:22-32
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be rescued, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20, 21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33, 34)


28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are LOVED on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are IRREVOCABLE. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
NIV


Not to be a "Scripture Monkey," I've left out the middle part, but consider this: BOTH of these passages are part of the one and same treatise by Paul to the Romans! Therefore, the order in which they occur is also important!

Stop and think this out: God loved Avraham and Sarah enough to give them a child in their old age, Yitschaq (Isaac). Yishma'el was not the child of the promise; he was a child made after the flesh - a human attempt to "help God out." Still, God did not allow Yishma'el to suffer and blessed him, too.

Yitschaq was the heir of this love. He, in turn, had two children, Esav (Esau) and Ya`aqov (Jacob). Through God's foreknowledge, Ya`aqov was the heir of this love. Esav, who sold his BIRTHRIGHT for a mere bowl of tomato soup, was likewise belittled and hated in the sense that God's attention was turned to Ya`aqov. (Remember: children spell "love" T-I-M-E, according to Dr. James Dobson.)

Ya`aqov, whose name was later changed to "Yisra'el," has twelve sons and a daughter; each of his sons had sons and daughters, and each of their sons had sons and daughters, etc.

Tell me, if you had ... say ... three sons asleep in a house and the house caught fire, which one would you rescue? That's an unfair question, right? Wouldn't you want to rescue ALL of them?! Say now that you're an old man with grandchildren in the house. Wouldn't you still want to rescue ALL of them, too?! The Hebrew mentality that you will find THROUGHOUT the Bible is that they are FAMILY! "MISHPACHAH," in Hebrew!

So, even if God has to resurrect them and bring them back to life first, ALL ISRA'EL WILL BE RESCUED!!!

One last question to consider: To what covenant is Yesha`yahu referring in Isaiah 59:20 and 21, quoted by Paul in Romans 11:27?

Isaiah 59:21
21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the Lord. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the Lord.
NIV


That IS the covenant! And, as the translators of the NIV imply, it's the same as the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31.
 

Poppin

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Arnie Manitoba said:
I think you will find the answer in Romans 9: 6-8

"All Israel" can refer to all the descendents of Israel (Abraham) .... which today includes Islam (through Ishmael)

It is only the "Israel" descended from Issac that will (all) be saved
Greetings Arnie:
Regardless of whether they rejected Jesus in His own day, and ever since, or not?
(I don't mean those of Israel who were saved by faith in Christ)

For your thesis to be true: "It is only the "Israel" descended from Issac that will (all) be saved", that means even those who rejected Jesus will be saved.

There's an actual solution to this issue:

The Israel of God - Galatians 6:16
14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/gal6-16.html - very short.

Paul says here that many from Jacob (Isaac) would NOT be saved. Would not inherit.

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

---

not only was Christ foreshadowed by the sons born MIRACULOUSLY (humanly impossible), Here Paul is saying above that Christians, New Covenant believers...like Isaac, are children of promise.

God waited until they were both beyond childbearing years to miraculously - by Promise - open Sarah's womb and she bore Isaac miraculously, according to a promise. Paul is comparing born again believers to Isaac in that way - miraculous, and by promise, and even including the promise of being heirs (as the faithful in Israel (Jacob) were).

He proceeds to say that just as in those days Ishmael (born of the will of man; flesh) persecuted Isaac (heir; miracle birth; promise), so too in Paul's day, were those born of the FLESH persecuting those born of the Spirit (like Isaac).

He is talking, in context of Israel of the flesh (NOT the Israel of God) persecuting the children born of the Spirit, children of promise, the heirs:

But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
 

Poppin

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Retrobyter said:
So, even if God has to resurrect them and bring them back to life first, ALL ISRA'EL WILL BE RESCUED!!!

One last question to consider: To what covenant is Yesha`yahu referring in Isaiah 59:20 and 21, quoted by Paul in Romans 11:27?

Isaiah 59:21
21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the Lord. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the Lord.
NIV


That IS the covenant! And, as the translators of the NIV imply, it's the same as the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31.

Retro:

So, even if God has to resurrect them and bring them back to life first, ALL ISRA'EL WILL BE RESCUED!!!

This is really reaching and is reincarnation.
Or something. Jewish Universalism. Which is Unbiblical.
And it's because you have to reconcile the passage in Romans giving you so much trouble :)

These were descendants of Isaac (Abraham):

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Matthew 23
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

And:

Isaiah 59:21 is about all of us in The New Covenant, in eternity. You know Hebrew language uses pictures.
If it hasnt been provided to and accepted by the Israel of God, you have NO covenant.
not saved. not adopted.
Not to mention who gave us the NT :)

God bless and keep you
Peace in Christ the Lord
Poppin
Arnie Manitoba said:
Poppin .... you need to go back and read Romans over and over again until you understand it.
Thanks Arnie.
I think I do. But which part do you think I have wrong?
the ALL Israel who ever lived will be saved?

grace and peace to you
Poppin.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Poppin said:
Thanks Arnie.
I think I do. But which part do you think I have wrong?
the ALL Israel who ever lived will be saved?

grace and peace to you
Poppin.
Paul systematically lays it out in Romans chapters 9 , 10 and 11
It is best to read all three chapters in order to see the whole picture (about Israel vs the Gentile Church)

Some of it is very hard for the Protestant gentile to accept and understand , but that is beside the point

God has a covenant with Israel that he will not break , in spite of their disobedience
He keeps the covenant for His own reasons , and His Holy Name , and not because Israel necessarily deserves it.
This can be difficult for the Christian to reconcile , but that is beside the point.

We are not given all the answers on how "all Israel" will be saved , but I expect it will ultimately be done through Christ somehow. I dont think it could be any other way.

Keep in mind that the Non-Messianic Jew did not receive the automatic forgiveness available through Christ (back then) (and since then)
Thus they have been punished and scattered and terminated and exterminated , and causted and holocausted.
Talk about punishment for sin !!!

That punishment is over now , we see the regathering back to the land and all the prosperity , they still do not Have Christ but it will come one day ,,,, several times in the OT it is described as God cleansing them all in a moment. (He does it) (He initiates it)

I love Israel and the Jewish people and am thankful they still are important to God and he still has favorable plans for them

In spite of the objections of many Christians.

Poppin .... you mentioned you were Jewish by birth .... I think that is very special .... cherish it .... the Messianic Jew has it all.

Salvation is first for the Jew , and second for the Gentile .

We Gentiles have an easy ride and share in some of the promises and blessings destined for Israel

But we are not Israel , never have been , never will be

Israel is a special group of people God has chosen to use down here for special purposes
 

Poppin

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Paul systematically lays it out in Romans chapters 9 , 10 and 11
It is best to read all three chapters in order to see the whole picture (about Israel vs the Gentile Church)

Some of it is very hard for the Protestant gentile to accept and understand , but that is beside the point
There is only one (1) section which discusses Israel of the flesh (national Israel).
Paul does not set the "gentile church" (there is no such thing) against Israel (the jewish church/people).
He is explaining something.
It's about in WHAT WAY God will save all of Israel He is going to save.

Protestant gentile?
i was a Jew until i became a christian.
It's not hard to understand....

Arnie Manitoba said:
God has a covenant with Israel that he will not break , in spite of their disobedience
He keeps the covenant for His own reasons , and His Holy Name , and not because Israel necessarily deserves it.
This can be difficult for the Christian to reconcile , but that is beside the point.
What Covenant?
This one? Which is ALL about Israel?

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jeremiah 31
A New Covenant
31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Hebrews 8:10
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Luke 1
And all these things were talked about through all the hill country of Judea, 66and all who heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, “What then will this child be?” For the hand of the Lord was with him.

Zechariah’s Prophecy
67And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying,
68“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
for he has visited and redeemed his people
69and has raised up a horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David,
70as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,
71that we should be saved from our enemies
and from the hand of all who hate us;
72to show the mercy promised to our fathers
and to remember his holy covenant,

73the oath that he swore to our father Abraham, to grant us
74 that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
might serve him without fear,
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
76And you, child [John the Baptist], will be called the prophet of the Most High;
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways,
77to give knowledge of salvation to his people
in the forgiveness of their sins
,
78because of the tender mercy of our God,
whereby the sunrise shall visit ush from on high
79to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

That Covenant?
Or is there something more important than Jesus?

Arnie Manitoba said:
We are not given all the answers on how "all Israel" will be saved , but I expect it will ultimately be done through Christ somehow. I dont think it could be any other way.
Yes, Arnie, we are:

Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,a a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

3“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
9And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In
11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing rootc of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

--

couple of things to consider:

- how much more will their full inclusion mean! (as life from the dead - pretty clear)

- you need make the distinction between THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES.....and THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES. - they are 100% different.

- were those Covenant promises (going back to Abraham (promise), not Moses (Law/schoolmaster)) for Israel or not?

- did paul indicate by his distress that all Israel would be saved regardless?

- why bother mentioning magnifying his office, "in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them."?

- what was THE CONDITION that unbelieving Israel would be accepted? - race? promises to Patriarchs? supremacy in God's eyes?

and even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

The Condition is BELIEF.

So there`s no mystery as to HOW All Israel who God had reserved (remnant); THE iSRAEL OF GOD will be saved......

BELIEF.
The Gospel.

Arnie Manitoba said:
Keep in mind that the Non-Messianic Jew did not receive the automatic forgiveness available through Christ (back then) (and since then)
Thus they have been punished and scattered and terminated and exterminated , and causted and holocausted.
Talk about punishment for sin !!!
HUH :wub:

http://biblehub.com/esv/hebrews/11.htm - Hebrews 11.
Hebrews..that mean Messianics, or Jews.

Why are you trying to include unbelievers in the Household of God - on what ground do you do this.
Who does this NOT apply to.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Arnie Manitoba said:
That punishment is over now , we see the regathering back to the land and all the prosperity , they still do not Have Christ but it will come one day ,,,, several times in the OT it is described as God cleansing them all in a moment. (He does it) (He initiates it)

Jews celebrate Pentecost as the day Moses received the Law on Mt. Sinai and the nation of Israel was born. - Exodus 19-20
Christians celebrate Pentecost as the day the Holy Spirit came upon the Disciples in Jerusalem, and the Church was born - Acts 2.

STILL about Israel. It would be years before the gentiles were called.

Arnie Manitoba said:
That punishment is over now , we see the regathering back to the land and all the prosperity , they still do not Have Christ but it will come one day ,,,, several times in the OT it is described as God cleansing them all in a moment. (He does it) (He initiates it)

I love Israel and the Jewish people and am thankful they still are important to God and he still has favorable plans for them

In spite of the objections of many Christians.

There is no 3rd re-gathering in the Bible (1948; 67..whenever).
There is salvation by grace through faith (if they continue not in unbelief) in Christ.
Evangelism. thats the how.

Romans 1
I am Not Ashamed of the Gospel
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

I only object when we go through contortions to make Romans say what it does not say.

Luke 16
29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

John 5:47
46"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Jon 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

2 Corinthians 3
The Glory of the New Covenant
15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Arnie.

Arnie Manitoba said:
Paul systematically lays it out in Romans chapters 9 , 10 and 11
It is best to read all three chapters in order to see the whole picture (about Israel vs the Gentile Church)

Some of it is very hard for the Protestant gentile to accept and understand , but that is beside the point

God has a covenant with Israel that he will not break , in spite of their disobedience
He keeps the covenant for His own reasons , and His Holy Name , and not because Israel necessarily deserves it.
This can be difficult for the Christian to reconcile , but that is beside the point.

We are not given all the answers on how "all Israel" will be saved , but I expect it will ultimately be done through Christ somehow. I dont think it could be any other way.

Keep in mind that the Non-Messianic Jew did not receive the automatic forgiveness available through Christ (back then) (and since then)
Thus they have been punished and scattered and terminated and exterminated , and causted and holocausted.
Talk about punishment for sin !!!

That punishment is over now , we see the regathering back to the land and all the prosperity , they still do not Have Christ but it will come one day ,,,, several times in the OT it is described as God cleansing them all in a moment. (He does it) (He initiates it)

I love Israel and the Jewish people and am thankful they still are important to God and he still has favorable plans for them

In spite of the objections of many Christians.

Poppin .... you mentioned you were Jewish by birth .... I think that is very special .... cherish it .... the Messianic Jew has it all.

Salvation is first for the Jew , and second for the Gentile .

We Gentiles have an easy ride and share in some of the promises and blessings destined for Israel

But we are not Israel , never have been , never will be

Israel is a special group of people God has chosen to use down here for special purposes
Thank you for your understanding and consideration. I also appreciate you working with Poppin. You have a great beginning for how God is working with the Hebrews.

Regarding the way God will rescue ALL Isra'el, I'd like you to consider a few things about Zechariah 12. (If you're reading this, Poppin, you can follow along, too.) Although chapter and verse divisions aren't inspired and occasionally they hinder a good understanding of a passage, this chapter was well divided. I'm using the Complete Jewish Bible for the right names, both here and in the B'rit Chadashah (the New "Testament" or the New Covenant). (I'm not trying to be a "Scripture Monkey" here. Please, get yourself a cup of coffee (or whatever you drink), sit down, relax, and read through this slowly as though you're reading this for the first time.)

Z'kharyahu (Zechariah) 12
12:1 A prophecy, the word of Adonai (YHWH) concerning Isra’el — here is the message from Adonai, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings:
2 “I will make Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) a cup
that will stagger the surrounding peoples.
Even Y’hudah (Judah) will be caught up
in the siege against Yerushalayim.
3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim
a heavy stone for all the peoples.
All who try to lift it will hurt (herniate) themselves,
and all the earth’s nations will be massed against her.
4 When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“I will strike all the horses with panic
and their riders with madness;
I will keep watch over Y’hudah,
but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples.
5 The leaders of Y’hudah will say to themselves,
‘Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength
through Adonai-Tzva’ot (YHWH of-Armies) their God.’
6 When that day comes,
I will make the leaders of Y’hudah
like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood,
like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain;
they will devour all the surrounding peoples,
on the right and on the left.
Yerushalayim will be inhabited
in her own place, Yerushalayim.
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God (Elohiym),
like the angel of Adonai (the messenger of YHWH) before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon (a Syrian king)
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 ALL the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB


When I first looked at these four names, I wondered. I said to myself, "Levi was one of the twelve tribes; David was a great king, but he was NOT one of the twelve tribes; Natan (or Nathan) was a prophet who served in David's time, but who in the world is "Shim`i?" Now, let's compare this to Luke 3:

Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB


Here we see the same four names mentioned, but notice: They are not only in the lineage of Yeshua` (Jesus) but they are also vertically related in His family tree!

This tells me two things directly:

(1) "Somehow," they are all present at the time they see the One who was "pierced" come back and rescue His people, and
(2) They are all mourning for this One who was "pierced" as an only son or as a firstborn son.

Thus, they EACH see Yeshua` AFTER He has returned and is fighting as the "messenger of YHWH," seeking "to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim - the One who was pierced! Since they are all VERTICALLY RELATED, this MUST occur AFTER THE RESURRECTION! Therefore, the RESCUE of Isra'el (or at least, the RESCUE OF YERUSHALAYIM (JERUSALEM) will occur AFTER THE RESURRECTION!

Also, consider this carefully: Their seeing Yeshua` and recognizing Him as their kin would explain why they mourn for Him so! He is their DESCENDANT! He is their HEIR! If they had an only son, He was the DESCENDANT of their only son! If they had more than one son, He was the DESCENDANT of their FIRSTBORN son, their son who was heir to the inheritance!

Therefore, we may conclude that this prophecy has not been fulfilled, yet, and that there will not only be a LITERAL RESURRECTION (which Poppin likes to call "reincarnation"), and that it will happen AFTER (or at least DURING) the RESCUE - the SALVATION - of the Hebrews, particularly those of Y'hudah or Judah or Judaea or the Land of the Y'hudiy or the Jews. (So, Poppin, this is PROOF that NOT all prophecies have been fulfilled, yet!)

So, David had a SON named Natan (Nathan), who had a great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandson named Levi, who in turn had a great, (15x) grandson named "Shim`i," and technically both authors are talking about the CHILDREN OF Shim`i! And then, Z'kharyahu takes pains to say, "all the remaining families," as well! So, they will ALL weep for the suffering that Yeshua` went through, whether they caused it themselves or were simply ancestors of those who DID cause Him to suffer! And, they will all learn, as Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) said,

Isaiah 53:4-6
4 Surely he took up OUR infirmities
and carried OUR sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for OUR transgressions,
he was crushed for OUR iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 WE ALL, like sheep, have gone astray,
EACH OF US has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of US ALL.
NIV


Also, I would remind you (as I'm sure Poppin would also, although from a different perspective) that IN CHRIST, that is IN THE MESSIAH, who is representative for the WHOLE nation, YOU, TOO, are a part of Isra'el and have equal inheritance with the believing Isra'elis! For IN HIM, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile! (But, for Poppin's sake, I will add "but ONLY IN HIM!" Outside of the Messiah, there is still a difference between Jew and Gentile.)

I have a little chart I made back in 2003 that I will try to make a picture I can include here (although not in this post). It has SIX (or FIVE) different groups of people talked about in the prophecies: The Gentiles have three subgroups: those who are true Gentile believers (today often calling themselves "churches" or erroneously "the Church"), those who will be the "sheep nations" of Matthew 25, and those who will be the "goat nations" of Matthew 25. The Hebrews (both Jews and Isra'elis not from the tribe of Y'hudah) also have three subgroups: those who also are true believers (today, either calling themselves "Christian converts" or "Messianic Jews"), those who are the Remnant of unbelieving Isra'elis who become the nation "born at once" when they "look on Him whom they pierced", and those who are "sons of Beliya`al," worthless fellows who will refuse to believe even AFTER they have met the true Messiah face to face! The two true believing groups are actually ONE group, for there is no difference between them IN THE MESSIAH.
 

Rocky Wiley

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Paul systematically lays it out in Romans chapters 9 , 10 and 11
It is best to read all three chapters in order to see the whole picture (about Israel vs the Gentile Church)

Some of it is very hard for the Protestant gentile to accept and understand , but that is beside the point

God has a covenant with Israel that he will not break , in spite of their disobedience
He keeps the covenant for His own reasons , and His Holy Name , and not because Israel necessarily deserves it.
This can be difficult for the Christian to reconcile , but that is beside the point.
God did not break the covenant with Israel, they did. However, he did make a new one with Israel.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
The Jews broke the old covenant and then the Lord regarded them not.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The new covenant would do away with the old covenant God had made with their fathers. We know the old has passed away because we are the beneficiaries of the New. That being the case, the old covenant that you spoke of became null and void when the Jews broke it. God had always said in the old covenant “if you will do this, then I will do that”. (My wording.)

Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
Deu 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
Deu 28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
Deu 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.



 

guysmith

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When I first started this thread I was sincerely at a loss as to what was meant by the term “all.” I have since found an answer which works for me and I would like to share what I have found.

God’s promises are not exclusive to just the tribes of Judah and Levi, but rather to “all” 12 tribes of Israel. Not every one that is a descendent of Jacob will be “saved,” but representatives from “all” 12 tribes will be part of the “remnant” that will be “rescued.”

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 

Eric E Stahl

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All Israel will be saved that survive the fire.

[SIZE=14pt]Ezekiel 39:6-7[/SIZE]
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7[SIZE=14pt]So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel[/SIZE]; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

[SIZE=18pt]Zechariah 13[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]7[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]8[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]9[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.[/SIZE]


Isaiah 4
2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, Eric.

Eric E Stahl said:
All Israel will be saved that survive the fire.

...
This is what I'm talking about! This statement is SO full of irony and redundancy that it would be comical if it weren't so tragically misunderstood! It's like saying, "Everybody in the burning building will be saved that survive the fire!" :wacko: DUH!

"All Isra'el shall be saved" does NOT mean "all Isra'el shall be justified by God!" It means "ALL ISRA'EL SHALL BE RESCUED!" With a few exceptions, I'm about to give up on y'all as UNTEACHABLE!
 

Floyd

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The following is an extract from www.revelationsmessage.co.uk. Chapter 14:1.

V1

And I saw, lo, (a)The Lamb standing on the (b)Mount Sion, and (a)with Him an (a)hundred forty and four thousand, (c)having His name and (c)His Father's name written (c)on their foreheads.

(a) "The Lamb;" unfortunately, the Church of England again diminish the original in the Authorised Version, by changing to "a Lamb," which could mean anything! The intent of the Holy Spirit was/is to convey "The" Lamb, (Str. Interlinear number 721.) The origin of the meaning through various levels is, "a male, strong to lift or raise." It is interesting that the Authorised renders, "a Lamb," the N.I.V., the Lamb both with a capital L, but both without the definite article The Lamb. The Interlinear has Lamb without the definite article, but in the vernacular Greek used, the word (721) means the above. There is only One, which is The Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the World, (John 1:29 & 36;) and Who also was found worthy to open the seals of the scroll in the sole timing of Jehovah Zebaoth (Rev. 5:9.)

"With Him an hundred forty and four thousand;" (see Rev. 7:3-8;) (144,000,) the number we know is made up of 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel (12 x 12,000) see Rev. 7. The number 12 in Scripture means "Governmental perfection," (App. 10 Comp.) Here there is 12 x 12 = 144, which could indicate extreme governmental perfection (or ultimate governmental perfection,) which can only mean Government by Almighty God is about to begin.

This therefore confirms that which was stated in chapter (1:10) "in the LORD'S DAY," (as opposed to the day of man, which is the present case.) An interesting aspect to this grouping is that they are "With Him!" They are all male (Rev. 7:4, where the Greek word "Huios," is son, or male, [Str. 5207].) There is a parallel to be drawn with King David's "Adullam," group (1Sam. 22:1, 1Sam. 23:13, 1Chron. 11:15, Micah 1:15,) so called, being a cave in enemy territory (Nephilim,) and just prior to David attaining power. But certainly a parallel can be drawn with David's early companions in arms (1Sam. 21,) in light of V.4(a) where ceremonial cleanliness in David's men was required to be allowed the priests bread! (Shew bread) (1 Sam. 21:1-6.) It is clear from our Lord's statement in Matt. 12:3-6, when the Pharisees criticised His 12 disciples He referred them to 1 Sam. 21:4, and by implication to Exodus 28:36-38, Lev. 15:15-30, and Lev. 24:9, which confirms the priestly function, the separation, and the Holiness (separation) of the Names on the foreheads of the 144,000.

The Lord's statement about Himself in Matt. 12:6 - 8 stated the Truth about His person, and the importance of the grouping, of Himself and His disciples, (see Rev. 14:4, and compare with 1 Sam. 21:1-6.) The importance of being in a state of ceremonial cleanness for a priestly function, such as that by David, and his men, our Lord and his disciples and in Rev. 14:4 by the 144,000 with The Lamb, is essential in the plan and work of Jehovah Zebaoth towards the undoing of the work of Satan in the Garden of Eden. This shows that a great work is about to be accomplished with Christ leading the change/battle!

Eve's was the first sin, Gen. 3:13, but Adam's is the responsibility, Gen. 3:17, so that the persuasive effect of Eve upon Adam, and the weakness of Adam upon Eve must be eliminated for the cleansing service and function, because the order of Jehovah Zebaoth will be established upon the earth, which Satan successfully reversed at the Garden of Eden. Eve and Adam (Separate Study); and see note V4.

The Apostle Paul's teaching on this subject showed the mind of Christ as regards the male and female roles, and will be the case in the Millennial period. This is mentioned only to illustrate the Lord's statement above re Himself and His disciples, and the ceremonial cleansing of the 144,000 male servants.

When the Lamb and His 144,000 start their work all the order will start to be established, as it is in Heaven, i.e. first Jehovah God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, second man, third woman, then children, followed by animals. (This not to be confused with the position of men and women in Christ.)

The Davidic example projects through to Rev. 14:1, where the "endtime," grouping of Christ and His representative 12 (12,000 x 12) are stated, preparing and prepared for the purpose of Jehovah Zebaoth about to be enacted. As we know from Scripture that Christ is "great David's greater Son," (Num. 24:17, Zech. 6:12-13, 2 Peter 1:19, Rev. 22:16,) and in Rev. 14:1 is here poised for action to take Jerusalem and rule, the Davidic account in Sam., Chron., and King's is significant, which of course His Greater Son will perform perfectly, to His Father's will. In Matt. 12:6, Jesus refers to Himself as "greater than the temple," meaning that He is the Anointed One, The Christ, The One who is to come. Here, Jehovah Zebaoth in Christ is about to change the whole world, starting in Jerusalem.

( B) "Mount Sion;" Sion, or Zion (both spellings are used) is synonymous for or with Jerusalem, (one definition of "Zion," is "Stronghold.") There is dispute as to the actual location of Zion. In the Old Testament, it is the easternmost of the two hills of ancient Jerusalem, the site of the Jebusite city captured by David in the 10th century B.C. (2 Sam. 5:6-9.) Also probably refers to "the stronghold of Zion," (2 Sam. 5:7) taken by David and established as his royal capital. Josephus possibly mistakenly, identified Zion as the western hill (1st cent. A.D.,) this opinion remained until 19th/20th century, when the eastern hill was re-established (modern Ophel.) It was not included in the 16th century fortifications, and is still covered in fields and vineyards (Ency. Brit. 1977.) The actual site has huge significance for the future, as is seen from this verse alone. It is the true site of the "shining forth in Glory," (HEB. YAPHA) of the promised one (Deut. 33:2) which corresponds with "Maranatha" (1 Cor. 16:22.) The Law was given by God Almighty on Mt. Sinai ("HOREB,") the Law and the Prophets will be fulfilled by Messiah/Christ Jesus at His return (Deut. 33:2.)

The antithesis to this from Satan was/is Sion (Deut. 4:48,) (Mt. Hermon) which was/is a sacred site to Satanic paganism, propagated by Canaanites (Nephilim,) (Num. 21:33, Deut. 3:1-13.) The Nephilim were of large stature, 9' to 13' or more tall, and the tomb size is shown in Deut. 3:11, and testified in Deut. 3:13, "the land of the giants." The certain fact that they had spread from Babylon is shown by the tombs of the Marduk kings in Babylon, which were of the same size as Deut. 3:11. Babylon as is well known was founded by Nimrod, whose father was Cush and grandfather Ham! Nimrod was "great in rebellion against God," (Gen. 10:9,) (the word "before," Str. Hebrew 6440 can be either; "the face that turns," is from the number 6437, "to turn," "to face up to," "to turn aside / away," "turn the back," "turn the face," "turn the self," or as chosen by the translators, "before." Both are prepositional, but the context of Nimrod's story gives the sense, i.e., he was a great rebel against Jehovah, and in great sin in his life in the face of Jehovah. He and his mother were founders of false "religion" in Babylon.) (Nimrod's mother is reputed to have altered the "heavenly message," and created the "Zodiac," of which there is a copy in the temple at Dendera in Egypt. She is also reputed to have treated Nimrod as her husband sexually!) Babylon became the fountainhead of Satanic opposition to Jehovah God, until its destruction, and the removal of its priests to Pergamos (Anatolia.)

It was inevitable that the Nephilim/giants would resist the children of Israel (Jacob,) when they started their conquest of "the promised land." By that time the Nephilim had blended into other tribes and peoples, and a thorough mix had been established. For that reason Jehovah forbad Israel any inter-marriage with the Canaanite tribes (Caanan was the son of Ham and uncle to Nimrod Gen. 10:6,) which would have thwarted the Messiah line from Genesis.

Nephilim are the fruit of "the sons of God," (ha-Elohim = the Creator,) or fallen angels (Gen. 6:4) (Rev. 12:4 & 9) which have mated with "the daughters of men," (Gen. 6:2,) and had they succeeded in spreading their seed totally in men/Israel, the promise of Messiah (Gen. 3:15) could not have happened, and Satan would have had the victory. (There is much debate and varied opinion, as to whether the resultant Nephilim/giants are of "sons of God," or fallen angels. The Interlinear Hebrew uses the word "God," in the delegated sense [Str. 430,] which should be spelt with a small g (god,) which can mean an "authority," lower than Elohim [God,] which brings in to play; angel, created being, etc. The Interlinear Hebrew for "the son," (Str. 1121) (BEN) is the word "family builder," which implies just that possibility in these "sons of God!")

However, the result is evil. Therefore is not of the will of Almighty God, but does show the fact of the free will of the created being, whether "sons," or angels. In the view of the writers the Hebrew Interlinear "son," which is followed by most of the translations, except Moffatt (James) is certainly correct; as they were not led by the Holy Spirit in their act of procreation but by the spirit of the Enemy of God, Satan! That is in contrast to Rom. 8:14, which confirms that those led by the Holy Spirit ("Spirit of God,") are "the sons of God;" so that God in Christ has created a pathway contrary to that of the fallen sons of Gen. 6!, which allows fallen human beings to become "sons of God," by their own will, in the acceptance of Christ, as Saviour, (Jn.1:12,) (Rom. 8:4 & 19,) (Phil. 2:15,) (1Jn. 3:1 & 2.) Genesis 6:4 shows clearly that after the flood destroyed all the Nephilim infiltrated humans, leaving Noah and his family only; there was at a later date a further eruption of Nephilim “and also after the flood.” These are described in detail in Num. 13:33, and in the book of Joshua.

It is notable that on a number of occasions the Divinely ordered task of annihilating the Nephilim was not completed i.e. Josh. 11:22, 13:13, 16:10, 17:12 and elsewhere. That the task was probably never completed is implicit in the renewed warning to Israel regarding the forbidding of intermarriage with the local tribes, Josh. 23. It is almost certain that both King Saul and King David also did not eradicate Nephilim, as both failed to obey the commands of Jehovah. Although David’s heart was directed correctly, as Scripture records as he slew Goliath (a Nephilim,) that is probably symbolic and prophetic regarding The Son of David’s action when He (Christ) returns to Earth.

Whether or not physical Nephilim survive until this day in smaller form is unknown, and impossible to determine at the present time. However, when we recognise that the Nephilim purpose was to thwart Jehovah’s plan of Salvation for Israel and the world, the fact that “great David’s greater Son," "the second Adam,” Christ has appeared, died the death of the cross (Gal. 3:13,) and risen, shows the utter failure of the physical Nephilim.

We know now that in this Age (of Grace,) the battle is spiritual (Eph. 6:1.) Those who truly wish to embrace God and Redemption can only do so through Christ (Acts 4:12) and that through faith only (Gal. 2:20,) (Gal. 3.)

The Nephilim were/are the Satanically inspired fruit of fallen beings, who attempted to thwart the physical birth of Christ/Messiah. The current attempt of Satan is twofold;

1) To thwart the spiritual birth of the Body of Christ (Christians true,) which Body must be complete prior to the Lord’s return (and, in the opinion of the writers, probably during Israel’s Lo-Ammie state,) which confirms that now is a spiritual warfare.

2) To thwart the promises of Jehovah Zebaoth to Israel.

To that end spiritual forces are arrayed against mankind (Eph. 6:12) (particularly Gentiles since Acts 28.) These Satanic forces are the equivalent of the physical Nephilim, and as deadly. As the Nephilim were/are a mixture of human flesh and Satanic spirit, the same applies today, and are described in the Gospels and other parts of the New Testament (Matt. 10:1, Mk. 1:27, Mk. 3:11, 5:13, Mk. 6:7, Lk. 4:36, Acts 5:16, 8:7, Rev. 16:13.) It is a sad fact that people have high regard for wizards, mediums etc., (Acts 8:11, and Acts 8:9-24,) but as the Holy Spirit shows in Acts 8:21-24, there is only one way of escape for such people, Simon had to acknowledge his error, repent of it, and request prayer for release. That was prior to Acts 28, and as shown below, there is a change. Therefore, it is incumbent on Christians to be wary of all humans, to attempt to determine their condition, many people are difficult to assess as regards their true position re our Great Enemy, whether they are his by default or decision.

The definitive text on this subject is Leviticus 19:31, "regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards to be defiled by them:" Dr Bullinger's comments on this verse is crucial. "Familiar spirits are evil spirits personating dead humans, and attach themselves to mediums or those that give their wills to them." Once that exposure takes place, the only way of escape for the individual is: 1) acknowledgement of the fact of possession, 2) a genuine desire for release, 3) their own prayer for the power of Jesus The Christ to remove the possessing spirits. People who take these steps are usually ill, disturbed, and sometimes violent, or a combination of these expressions, but the result is wonderful release. There are groups in the world that say they can do the releasing for a person, this is certainly false, and puts the subject person into greater bondage, human and Satanic. That particular power ceased at Acts 28, when the Administration (Age) changed, due to the final rejection of Christ by the Jewish hierarchy.

The great danger and tragedy with young people and children, is that Satan can begin the ensnarement and possession by various means (such as Ouija Boards, drugs , people etc.,) which/who are empowered by him. These people then go on into the world, taking their places in society, and by their own problem backgrounds create and expand the problems mentioned. Others are cognisant agents of Satan, who can rally others when required.

The last verse of the book of Zechariah is conclusive, "there shall be no more Canaanite in the house of Jehovah Zebaoth." Also, in Zech. 13:2 idols, prophets and unclean spirits are banished (presumably to the same abyss as Satan.) This takes place after the return of Christ/Jehovah, and as the Millennial kingdom is established. It is considered (Ency. Brit. N. p. 232) that Christ the "Nazarene," is also under a Nazarene/Nazarite vow, yet to be completed when the Canaanite is eliminated. The Holy Spirit through John is lucid on the Antichrist, and particularly 1Jn. 2:18-28, see also (2Thess. 2:3-12,) (1Jn.4:2-3,) (1Jn. 4:6,) (1Jn. 5:19,) (2Jn. 7,) where "the last time," (i.e. this last Age time) is described in detail. In both 1 and 2 John, the conditions described are recognisable now by true Christians. The spirit of Antichrist is in every part of human life, and its profanity is evident continually around us, in all media, communications and contact, and unfortunately in false christian teaching world wide.

Special Note:

It is a curious fact that many Christian teachers are not aware of, or find the subject of fallen angels/Nephilim a difficult subject to discuss or teach. Scripture however must be taken as it is written, and not taught in selected sections. One can only imagine that is because of personal problems/blocks, as Scripture is clear that one third of heaven's angels follow Satan! (Rev.12:4-9.)

The above is quoted, as clearly the events of the culmination of Rev.14:1 are of great importance to the “Shining forth” of Christ Messiah of Israel at that stage of culmination.

That the exact location is in dispute historically (see Josephus etc), puts even more emphasis on trying to understand the truth re location and meaning.

Most people have heard that “Zion” is linked to Israel, and vaguely think of Jerusalem as meaning the same, which is broadly accurate, but the fact that the Enemy is working constantly to confuse the world on this issue means that the Christian in particular should try to understand what information there is.

It is a fact that other organisations have adopted the same term of “Zion”, such as Mormons, Rastafari, Arab and Islamic tradition, anti-slavery Organisations to name but a few, shows the appeal of the term!

The following is the prime description in Wikipedia:.

Zion (also transliterated Sion, Tzion or Tsion) is a place name often used as a synonym for Jerusalem.[1][2] The word is first found in Samuel II, 5:7 dating to c.630-540 BCE. It commonly referred to a specific mountain near Jerusalem (Mount Zion), on which stood a Jebusite fortress of the same name that was conquered by David and was named the City of David. The term Tzion came to designate the area of Jerusalem where the fortress stood, and later became a metonym for Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, the city of Jerusalem and generally, the World to Come.

In Kabbalah the more esoteric reference is made to Tzion[3] being the spiritual point from which reality emerges, located in the Holy of Holies of the First, Second and Third Temple.

The most commonly known term is “Zionism”, which refers to 19th Century movement for the migration of Jews worldwide, back to the land of Palestine (Biblical Israel); see the following Wikipedia extract.

The term "Zionism" coined by Austrian Nathan Birnbaum, was derived from the German rendering of Tzion in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890.[13] Zionism as a political movement started in 1897 and supported a 'national home', and later a state, for the Jewish people in Palestine. The Zionist movement declared the re-establishment of its State of Israel in 1948, following the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine. Since then and with varying ideologies, Zionists have focused on developing and protecting this state.

While Zionism is based in part upon Torah mitzvot linking the Jewish people to the Biblical land of Israel, the modern movement is largely secular. Indeed, until 1967 the Tzion of the Tanakh (the Old City of Jerusalem) was not even within the boundaries of Israel (although Mount Zion itself, was).

The modern Jewish opinion of the site is shown in the following Wikipedia extract:

Today, Mount Zion refers to a hill south of the Old City's Armenian Quarter, not to the Temple Mount. This apparent misidentification dates from the Middle Ages, when Christian pilgrims mistook the relatively large, flat summit (the highest point in ancient Jerusalem) for the original site of the Jewish Temple. The Dormition Church is located upon the hill currently called Mount Zion.

However, whatever the various adoptions and annexations of the term by humans and by the Enemy, only what Almighty God’s Plans and actions mean from Scripture have any lasting veracity and effect for human kind, and God’s Plans of Redemption for both his people Israel and His Son’s people, the Body of Christ!

As has been seen from the extract at the beginning above, the battle is spiritual between the Almighty and Satan; and therefore what God states, Satan will counterfeit, hence Satan’s Mount Hermon (Sirion, or Sion, a Nephilim area Deut.3:9)!

The fact remains that in the culmination of the Great Tribulation (Rev.7:14), God states that “for Zion’s sake I will not hold my peace” (Isa.62:1), and also at the time of His vengeance against His, and Israel’s enemies it will be “the year of recompense for the controversy of Zion” (Isa.34:8, 63:1-6, 2:10-22, Rev. 19:11-21)!

The “controversy” God is referring to, is that which has been under way since He cursed Satan in Gen.3:14, and promised him that he would be defeated in Gen.3:15, by none other than the “woman’s seed”! That seed was Mary the mother of Jesus, God’s “only begotten Son”. That Promise, and the ones that followed in Israel’s history; regarding Israel’s glorious future, the Promised Land borders, Jerusalem, and their future standing in the world; are all part of the “controversy” which Satan constantly ferments! All these will be resolved in the final actions of Jehovah Zebaoth in Christ Messiah Jesus: see Wrath of God;

Note

The Ottomans were part of the German 'Axis' in the 1914-18 war, and as their southern flank, was crucial to the outcome. Allenby gave his support for the state of Israel together with Winston Churchill, and T.E. Lawrence. It is not generally known that Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia,) was so involved with this effort, as so much of his life is unknown, due in part to many of his roles for the Government. Government Papers released so far show his very active role in trying to establish a 'State of Israel with Churchill and Allenby.' Allenby commented that "without Lawrence's efforts with the Arabs during the 1914-18 war, we could not have won!"

The historian Sir Martin Gilbert stated of Lawrence "he was a serious Zionist."

Thus the 1914-18 war paved the way for the 1948 League of Nation's sanction of the 'Jewish State,' and the events still current leading from the temporal State, to that of the one of prophecy!
 

Jun2u

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What I have observed from reading the posts in this thread is that there seem to be an agreement that an Israelite has some kind of advantage over a Gentile. Not only is this attitude contrary to Acts 10:34, but also has a negative effect on National Israel in that they were the first people to receive the Gospel and Salvation,. They were the custodian of the Gospel but because of unbelief and disobedience, and except for a remnant, they will instead be last. The condition of “blindness in part” of Israel will last until the fullness of the Gentiles come in, that is until the last Gentile that is to be saved have become saved which will be on the last day (Jo. 6:44).

“The last shall be first and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.”
Matthew 20:16

I believe the verse above points to National Israel!

Before we make any kind of conclusions about anything in Scripture we ought to first learn who or what is in view.

The Nation of Israel have been oppressed for so long since Egypt that they look for the promised king who will come to “rescue” and “deliver” them from their oppression. They are not looking for a king who will “save” them from their sins, and this is the reason they did not recognize Jesus as Messiah and King the first time He came nor will they ever. Today, they still wait for a king who will “rescue” and “deliver” them.

The “ALL Israel” of Ro. 11:26 CANNOT nor WILL IT EVER point to National Israel because the condition of “blindness in their part” will last until the last day.


The word “Israel” has multiple meanings:

Jesus……………………………(Matthew 2:15; Ex. 4:22; Hos. 11:1)
Jacob…………………………...(Genesis 32:28)
Israel/people of God…….(Gal. 6:16)

Likewise, an example with the word “Messenger:”

Jesus ……………(Mal. 3:1)
Angels…………..(Heb. 1:14)
People…………..(Isa. 52:7; Ro. 10:15)

To God Be The Glory
 

Eric E Stahl

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Retrobyter said:
Shabbat shalom, Eric.


This is what I'm talking about! This statement is SO full of irony and redundancy that it would be comical if it weren't so tragically misunderstood! It's like saying, "Everybody in the burning building will be saved that survive the fire!" :wacko: DUH!

"All Isra'el shall be saved" does NOT mean "all Isra'el shall be justified by God!" It means "ALL ISRA'EL SHALL BE RESCUED!" With a few exceptions, I'm about to give up on y'all as UNTEACHABLE!
Retrobyter,

What you don't seem to understand is that God has had it with Israel's rejection. He is going to cleanse Israel by fire.

Isaiah 4:2-4
2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Eric.

Eric E Stahl said:
Retrobyter,

What you don't seem to understand is that God has had it with Israel's rejection. He is going to cleanse Israel by fire.

Isaiah 4:2-4
2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
So, which is it? Is it by fire (the "spirit of burning") or by water ("washed away")? Look, I understand that these are BOTH analogies of purging out the "filth" and the "blood" from Tsiown and Yerushalayim, but what you need to understand is the END RESULT! WHY?! What is the PURPOSE of "washing away the filth" or "purging the blood by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning?" Why would God take such pains to perform this cleansing? Is He going to burn/cleanse them CLEAN AWAY?! NO!!!! He is REDEEMING THEM!

NEVER FORGET that the children of Isra'el - ALL of them - are MISHPACHAH! FAMILY!

I never had a physical brother growing up, but I had friends who had brothers, and I know how they treated one another! They'd bicker, wrestle, punch each other, and pull all sorts of tricks on each other. They looked at times like the worst of enemies! But, if someone ever picked on one of them, the other would stand by his brother and they'd fight side by side against the common enemy!

Yes, God has a bone or two to pick with Isra'el, but they are His FAMILY! Although He has at times used other nations to punish His children and whip them back in line, if those nations overstepped their bounds as to misunderstand what Isra'el means to God and pushes them TOO hard, God will fight FOR Isra'el and end up punishing the nations that came against them! They are the people through whom He has preserved His Word and through whom He has given His SON! He is not about to lose them to the "dark side!" What would be the point of disciplining them if they could not be redeemed?!
 

Floyd

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"All Israel will be saved"
See Dan.12:1&2; all raised, but not all to everlasting life!!
The Millennial Reign participants (the Kingdom of priests unto God), are the "ideal Israel" called in the OT "Jeshuran"!
Floyd.
 

Jun2u

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"All Israel will be saved"
See Dan.12:1&2; all raised, but not all to everlasting life!!
The Millennial Reign participants (the Kingdom of priests unto God), are the "ideal Israel" called in the OT "Jeshuran"!
Floyd.
Many believe Michael is an angel however; no angel can be a prince over a people. The Great Prince is none other than Jesus Himself (Dan. 10:13, 21; Eze. 37:25).

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with the word “Jeshuran.” Not everybody understands Hebrew and Greek, at least not I.

But I do know that all true believers in the New Testament are priests of God and Christ (Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6).

Can you or anyone tell me where in Scripture does it mention that Christ will reign in this sin cursed earth for a thousand years?

To my understanding, the term “one thousand years” means “the completeness of whatever is in view.”

If we read the “one thousand years” literally many red flags will arise. This term and like any other passages, must be read in light of the whole Bible.

Mt. 24:29-31 reads::

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

ITh. 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The verses above is describing the “catching up” (rapture) of the believers. Note the word “immediately” in Mt. 24:29. This is the same word we find in Ac. 16:26 that is “immediate or instant.”

If the rapture of the believers is on the last day (Jo. 6:44) and ITh. 4:17 “so shall we ever be with the Lord,” when will the one thousand year reign of Christ begin?

As you have read the scripture texts above there is no place for a thousand year reign of Christ to occur either before or after the rapture of the believers.

To God Be The Glory