Retrobyter concerning All Israel???

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Jun2u

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If you want to play blind to the words set forth in Mt. 24:29 and refuse to recognize the word “immediately” then you are not contending with me but with God. The phrase “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” in Rev. 20:2-6 cannot be literal years because of the language of I Th. 4:17 which reads:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

I Cor. 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Between the scripture texts above along with Mt.24:29 there is really no room for a thousand year reign of Christ on earth.

The “thousand years” must be understood as “completeness of whatever is in view” otherwise; we will run into all kinds of problems. In the case of Rev. 20:2-6 it is the "completeness of God's timetable" to what's in view.

To God Be The Glory
 

Floyd

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No Jun2u; you are contending with God in trying to use His word against Him!!!
Satan tried that approach with our Lord just after His Baptism.
If you are sincere, you are in danger!
Do not try to use God's word against Him!
Floyd.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, Jun2u.

Jun2u said:
If you want to play blind to the words set forth in Mt. 24:29 and refuse to recognize the word “immediately” then you are not contending with me but with God. The phrase “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” in Rev. 20:2-6 cannot be literal years because of the language of I Th. 4:17 which reads:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

I Cor. 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Between the scripture texts above along with Mt.24:29 there is really no room for a thousand year reign of Christ on earth.

The “thousand years” must be understood as “completeness of whatever is in view” otherwise; we will run into all kinds of problems. In the case of Rev. 20:2-6 it is the "completeness of God's timetable" to what's in view.

To God Be The Glory
Sorry, bro', but you need to re-think 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The context of this verse never says WHERE we're going to go, being "with the Lord!" Many ASSUME it means we're going to "go to Heaven," but it never says that. It only says that wherever He goes, we go with Him! IF He were to "bounce back up" to "Heaven," THEN we would go to "Heaven," too. BUT, what if He's on His way SOMEWHERE ELSE?! Is He coming back just to "rapture" His people and then go away? OR, does He have a more pressing, urgent need? I believe from other passages that He is resurrecting an ARMY to take with Him in His fight against the enemies of His Land and of His People!

The thousand years are to be understood as the MESSIAH'S (the CHRIST'S) time! Those whom He can trust to reign beside Him and under His control are peripheral to HIS reign, and HE will reign until all of His enemies are under His feet! They're not there, yet! And, since people still die, it is obvious that death - the last of His enemies to defeat - is not yet defeated! (I Corinthians 15:20-28.)

As far as Job 14:10-12 goes, be careful to what you give credence in the Scriptures! Not everything recorded in the Scriptures is to be taken as God's own words! For instance, surely you wouldn't take Genesis 3:4-5 as words to live by, would you?

Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
KJV


So, why would you take the despondent words of a hurting man, `Iyov (Job), as though it was "gospel?" He was merely answering the words of one of his three "friends," Tzofar the Na`amatiy, who blamed him for sinning as the cause of his illness! There are five human beings in the story of `Iyov giving long speeches: `Iyov himself, Elifaz the Teimaniy, Bildad the Shuchiy, Tzofar the Na`amatiy, and Elihu the son of Barakh'el the Buziy from the family of Ram. And, NONE of them should be thought to be completely right in what they say (although YHWH doesn't put any blame to Elihu)!
 

guysmith

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Shalom Retrobyter,

Retrobyter said:
One must SEVER the umbilical cord between the word "saved" and the concept of being "born again." They are NOT THE SAME!!!

"Being justified by God" is the same as "being born again."
"Being saved" is the same as "being rescued" or "being delivered!"
I agree with this and had held this position for 30+ years.

You stated: Tell me, if you had ... say ... three sons asleep in a house and the house caught fire, which one would you rescue? That's an unfair question, right? Wouldn't you want to rescue ALL of them?! Say now that you're an old man with grandchildren in the house. Wouldn't you still want to rescue ALL of them, too?! The Hebrew mentality that you will find THROUGHOUT the Bible is that they are FAMILY! "MISHPACHAH," in Hebrew!

So, even if God has to resurrect them and bring them back to life first, ALL ISRA'EL WILL BE RESCUED!!!

My response: Earlier, you had made it clear that there is a difference between being "rescued" and being "born again." To me being "born again" means salvation/avoiding the second death/ being in the first resurrection. Your last statement implies that being "rescued" = (equals) salvation/avoiding the second death/being in the first resurrection. Please clarify.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 

Floyd

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V.4

And his tail dragged the (a)third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon (b)is standing before the woman which is about to bring forth, in order to eat up her (c)child as soon as it was born.



(a) Satan, since his original fall, has persuaded to his cause many angelic creation which are numbered in Scripture (see V.9) as a third of all the angels of heaven, which have done and are doing his bidding. The exact timing of his fall was certainly when Satan as a son (created) of God rebelled against his Creator, and claimed equality, (Ezk. 28:12-19.) Satan is a well kept secret. Although known of from Scripture he is not taken seriously by people, and is even regarded as a sort of joke, or figure of Halloween imagery. Almost all of the world's misery is attributable to him, even though Almighty God usually gets the blame. Almost everybody at some time has blamed The Almighty for some misfortune, which in fact should be laid at the door of Satan, or human fallen nature, or both. There is no more powerful entity on earth at the present time than Satan, (except for the Holy Spirit.)

Our Lord Himself acknowledged Satan as the prince of this world (John 12:31,) (John 14:30,) (John 16:11.) The Apostle Paul writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit, called Satan, "the prince of the power of the air," (Eph. 2:2.) These and many other Bible references show the power that is at present Satan's, and people will find to their cost that he is real, and behind all of the evil events, trends and control of humans that Paul wrote about so vividly and accurately to Timothy 2000 years ago, (2 Tim. 3.)

( B) The A.V. says "stood;" but the correction "is standing," and will continue to do so until he is broken "by no human hand," (Dan. 8:25) and then bound in the bottomless pit.

(c) "Child;" this is Jesus the Christ (anointed,) who is at present at the Right Hand of the Majesty, in Heaven, awaiting the time that His enemies are made His footstool. There are a number of people who feel that this child is the "new Israel," and will be caught up to God and His throne for protection. In the view of the writers this cannot be, as Satan must almost annihilate the Jews before Christ will return to save the remnant of them. If the Almighty intervened at this stage, and took a part of Israel out of the Tribulation, Satan would claim the victory, as the events prophesied in Scripture would have not been allowed to run their full course on earth, which is his (Satan's) sphere of rule. The help given to the suffering Jews will be via Christ's Spirit as described in Chp. 11:4; and elsewhere. Also if that were to happen, unregenerate humans would be in the most Sacred Place (The Throne,) which clearly would not accord with the main message (the Fall, and Regeneration work of Christ Jesus) of all of Scripture. Only Christ can be with Jehovah God on His throne after He became the first fruit in resurrection. Only He has the sanctity to be with the Father. On the contrary the Jews who are at the present still "lo-ammi," (not my people) are yet to see, accept and mourn Christ whom they pierced (Zech. 12:10,) only then will their cleansing begin, and together with the righteous resurrected Jews, form the reborn, new, nation of Israel, the eventual Jeshurun, (the ideal Israel.) There is a curious verse (Isa. 66:7) which seems to say that a child (nation) will be born before the normal travail of labour. However; the "before" (Str. 2962) is probably mistranslated in the A.V., and should read "delayed," "suspended," "not yet," "none-occurrence." The meaning being that the nation being brought to being is suspended! That prophecy foreshadows the rejection of Christ by Israel, and therefore their own rejected ("lo-ammi,") state for 2000 years. After the Zech. 12:10 experience, the rest of Isa. 66 applies and is wonderful for Israel and other peoples of God. That a nation is being brought forth cannot be disputed, as in the following verse (Isa. 66.8,) Zion is travailed! Verses 7 & 8 therefore seem to contradict, except for the above possible explanation, and a filling full of the prophecy. It is supremely significant, that as soon as Antichrist breaks his peace agreement with Israel, (2nd ½ of 70th week Dan.) Chapter 11 of Rev. and its events start, which correspond with Isa. 66:8, "for as soon as Zion travaileth, she brought forth her sons (children.)" This is the birth of the new nation of Israel. The one that will have such earthly blessing in the 1000 years of Jehovah / Christ's reign on earth, whose borders will be as the promise made to Abraham by Jehovah (Gen. 12:2-3,) (Gen. 15:18,) (Jer. 32:37-42,) (Jer. 33:14-16,) (Jer. 33:25-26,) (Ezk. 11:17-20,) (Ezk. 34,) (Ezk. 47:15-21,) and many other references throughout Scripture. The birth of this nation is one of the great events in the plan of Jehovah Zebaoth on earth, and will be greeted with great joy in heaven and earth, as it corresponds with the praise of the heavenly hosts for the vanquishing of the Evil One on earth (Rev. 19:1,) which was prophesied in Psalm 104:35.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, guysmith.

guysmith said:
Shalom Retrobyter,


I agree with this and had held this position for 30+ years.

You stated: Tell me, if you had ... say ... three sons asleep in a house and the house caught fire, which one would you rescue? That's an unfair question, right? Wouldn't you want to rescue ALL of them?! Say now that you're an old man with grandchildren in the house. Wouldn't you still want to rescue ALL of them, too?! The Hebrew mentality that you will find THROUGHOUT the Bible is that they are FAMILY! "MISHPACHAH," in Hebrew!

So, even if God has to resurrect them and bring them back to life first, ALL ISRA'EL WILL BE RESCUED!!!

My response: Earlier, you had made it clear that there is a difference between being "rescued" and being "born again." To me being "born again" means salvation/avoiding the second death/ being in the first resurrection. Your last statement implies that being "rescued" = (equals) salvation/avoiding the second death/being in the first resurrection. Please clarify.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Sure. I never said that all Isra'el would be justified! I merely said that all Isra'el would be rescued! That IS what "saved" means. What they do with the Messiah after they have met Him will determine whether they live on or not. Most, I believe, will treat Him with the respect and honor He deserves. Many will treat Him as His more immediate family, particularly the ones listed in Zechariah 12, will treat Him. They will mourn for Him - for what they as a people have done to Him - and they will accept Him as their King. A few will not. They are the "bneey Bliya`al," the "sons of Belial," who of their own volition will choose against the Messiah ... to their own demise.

You've got to realize that there are some people who are just vile by nature, while there are others who are hurt so deeply that they APPEAR to be vile, but have really been hurt so long and so deeply that they've just given up. If they would only see that they've been loved all along and that they are NOT alone, that there IS a God - YHWH - who loves them, and will rescue them when they are in the worst straits by sending them His Son - His Messiah, they will become His biggest supporters and His biggest fans! Many Jews in Isra'el who claim to be atheists are these kinds of people. They only call themselves "atheists" because they feel abandoned by God! Most of them know absolutely NOTHING about the Messiah Yeshua`, except what they are told by well-meaning rabbis who don't know Him either! They find branches of Judaism that say that God is not a personal God (Reconstructionist Judaism) or that God doesn't exist (Humanistic Judaism) in an attempt to satisfy their hunger, but they honestly DO NOT believe deep down inside that they are right. These are just feeble attempts to get back at God for abandoning them!

When the day of the Rescue comes, you will be AMAZED at how quickly these Jews will turn around! As vehemently and as ardently as they fought AGAINST the "missionaries," they will side WITH the Messiah when He arrives with many proofs of both God's existence and His own authenticity!

HOWEVER, any time that one of them can be rescued ahead of time, it would be better for that Jew to know God's Messiah early! There is no need for that person to wait until that day of Rescue to know Him and the power of His resurrection! How much easier it will be for that person to face uncertain times with confidence in the Messiah and knowledge of His soon return! How much more could a Jew teach us in our congregations about God and His Word? We were originally to be congregations of Jew and Gentile, worshipping God TOGETHER in unity! But, the Gentile-born "Christian" should NEVER think that a Jewish believer would have nothing to contribute to the congregation!

Jews and other Isra'elites used to trickle into the group of people considered to be "believers"; today they are being born again thousands at a time! They are learning about their Messiah through organizations such as the Messianic Movement and Jews for Jesus and the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews daily! These are SURE signs that Yeshua` is soon to return! When the Jews of Jerusalem can say, "Baruwkh haba' bshem YHWH," "Welcome, the Comer in the authority of YHWH," Yeshua` said they would see Him again! (Matthew 23:39)

Everyone seems to think that Ezekiel 37 (the valley of dry bones) is just some figurative language meant to indicate Isra'el's revival, but what if it is true?! What if this chapter's prophecy is FULFILLED LITERALLY?!

Just some more things to think about.
 

Wormwood

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The salvation of ALL Israel in Romans 11 is referring to the MANNER in which all Israelites will be saved. It is not teaching that every Israelite will be saved.

It breaks down like this...

Paul says that God is saving Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Through this jealousy and seeing God's work among Gentiles, Israelites will come to faith. It is IN THIS MANNER that all Israel will be saved (through seeing God's grace at work among Gentiles through faith in Christ). So the point is not that EVERY Israelite will be saved (Paul has made this clear that NOT every Israelite will be saved in chapters 9-10. Rather, all the Israelites who are saved will be saved in the manner of seeing God's work among the Gentiles by faith in Christ.

I think the Greek substantiates this as well. Arnie, I think Poppin has a better grasp on Romans on this issue than you give her credit for.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Wormwood.

Wormwood said:
The salvation of ALL Israel in Romans 11 is referring to the MANNER in which all Israelites will be saved. It is not teaching that every Israelite will be saved.

It breaks down like this...

Paul says that God is saving Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Through this jealousy and seeing God's work among Gentiles, Israelites will come to faith. It is IN THIS MANNER that all Israel will be saved (through seeing God's grace at work among Gentiles through faith in Christ). So the point is not that EVERY Israelite will be saved (Paul has made this clear that NOT every Israelite will be saved in chapters 9-10. Rather, all the Israelites who are saved will be saved in the manner of seeing God's work among the Gentiles by faith in Christ.

I think the Greek substantiates this as well. Arnie, I think Poppin has a better grasp on Romans on this issue than you give her credit for.
It sounds like you're doing it, too. "Saved" does NOT mean "justified by God." It means "rescued" or "delivered." It is a common mistake, but once one is aware of the difference, he should work to avoid that mistake in the future. It's hard, I know. It took me a long time to make the correction, especially when I was constantly going to church and hearing the same mistake over and over by every Christian with whom I talked.
 

guysmith

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Shalom Retrobyter,

I contend that Zechariah 14: 1-5 is a description of the only ones "rescued." Just as God provided Noah with divine survival instructions, God has provided end time believers with divine survival instructions to be "rescued." I also contend that all unfulfilled prophetic scripture supports this "rescue."


Retrobyter said:
With a few exceptions, I'm about to give up on y'all as UNTEACHABLE!
Those that are going to be "rescued" are called (Joel 2:32). Your trying to convince those that aren't called to be "rescued."

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 

Eric E Stahl

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guysmith said:
Shalom Retrobyter,

I contend that Zechariah 14: 1-5 is a description of the only ones "rescued." Just as God provided Noah with divine survival instructions, God has provided end time believers with divine survival instructions to be "rescued." I also contend that all unfulfilled prophetic scripture supports this "rescue."



Those that are going to be "rescued" are called (Joel 2:32). Your trying to convince those that aren't called to be "rescued."

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
God will send a country from the other end of the earth to carry away part of Israel's people at the time the judgment by fire falls and the heavens are darkened over Israe.

Isaiah 5:24-30
24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:
27None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
28Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:
29Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.
30And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the
heavens thereof.

I believe it is the wives and children that are carried away to America.

Zechariah 12:10-14
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, guysmith.

guysmith said:
Shalom Retrobyter,

I contend that Zechariah 14: 1-5 is a description of the only ones "rescued." Just as God provided Noah with divine survival instructions, God has provided end time believers with divine survival instructions to be "rescued." I also contend that all unfulfilled prophetic scripture supports this "rescue."



Those that are going to be "rescued" are called (Joel 2:32). You're trying to convince those that aren't called to be "rescued."

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
You're right in part; however, Zechariah 14 is only PART of the prophecy of Yeshua`s return and His rescue of the people in His Land. Zechariah 14 has to do with the rescue of those in Yerushalayim itself. One should NOT discount Zechariah 12, which is also part of this "oracle" from God through the prophet Z'kharyahu: (I'm going to use the NIV purely for readability.)

Zechariah 12:7-9
7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
NIV


In other words, God (through His Messiah) is going to rescue the people of Y'hudah FIRST; that is, He is going to rescue the Jews in Isra'el BEFORE He rescues those living in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). There, He puts a shield around them until He can get there. Furthermore, we learn from other passages, particularly in Isaiah 34 and 63:1, that He will start His campaign in Botsrah, south of the Dead Sea.

Also, we learn from other passages, like Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 37 and Joel 2, that He gathers an army even before that! And, what good is an army of raw recruits if they don't know what to do? There must also be some training involved! Even if someone is in a new body, he must still be given the training he needs so he can work together effectively with the others! Meanwhile, according to Isaiah 34, Yeshua` starts without us!

Don't make the mistake of thinking that Zechariah 14:1-6 is all there is to the rescue!

I would strongly recommend that one read through the whole book of Zechariah in a version that is easy to read in a single sitting (if one can eke out the time to do so). It's a relatively short book, and in the right version (that is, a version that is right for you), one can read it fairly quickly. I would suggest first the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) or the New International Version (NIV). Even the New American Standard Updated version (NASU) would be good. The KJV works well for me because I grew up with the "King's English," being a PK all my life, but if you don't understand something in the KJV, it will slow you down, and you need to be able to "see the forest for the trees!" You will discover that chapters 12 through 14 are a UNIT!
 

Wormwood

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Retrobyter,

Yes, you already made this argument and I refuted it. There are dozens, if not hundreds of Scriptures that use the term "saved" in reference to justification. I would point you to the book of Acts and the preaching of the Apostles. Salvation is almost always and ONLY used of justification which "saves" one from a wicked and corrupt generation. 1 Peter 3 declares that "baptism now saves you. Not the washing of dirt from the flesh but the plea to God for a clean conscience." I don't think you made a correction. I think you made an error and the folks conversing with you at church were right all along.
 

guysmith

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, guysmith.

In other words, God (through His Messiah) is going to rescue the people of Y'hudah FIRST; that is, He is going to rescue the Jews in Isra'el BEFORE He rescues those living in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). There, He puts a shield around them until He can get there.
Shalom Retrobyter,

This shield will go up the first day of the GT and last for the 1260 days of the GT. Just as God protected Israel in the wilderness with a "cloud and fire", He is going to also protect Jerusalem (Isaiah 4).

I can't discount your position on Judah. The problem is that 2/3 of the inhabitants of Israel are going to be killed by the armies of the A/C as it closes in on Jerusalem. Is it possible that there may be pockets of survivors in Judah? Maybe, however, there are no specific locations identified in the Bible like Jerusalem.

1. The two witnesses will prophesy from Jerusalem for the 1260 days of the GT (Revelation 11)
2. The 144,000 will be found "standing" on Mount Zion with Christ (Revelation 14)
3. Christ will fight for Jerusalem at His advent (Zechariah 14:1-5)
4. The Daughters of Zion will be protected on Mount Zion (Isaiah 4)
5. The "Remnant" will be "rescued" on Mount Zion (Joel 2:32)

…..just to name a few.

This is a "Noah Event" where God has deemed that certain end time believers are going to survive the coming "flood" of destruction and persecution. Mount Zion is the future "ark" and those "believers" that make it to this "sanctuary" will be "rescued".

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 

keras

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Yes, all Israel will be saved, that much is clear from Scripture.
The questions are: Who is Israel? And saved from what?

It was Jacob who was re-named Israel and his sons comprise the 12 tribes of Israel. They separated into two Houses [nations] at the time of Rehoboam as God planned it to happen. 1 Kings 12:24 The two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, plus part of Levi were joined by some of the other tribes before the Assyrian conquest and all became known as Jews. They have remained as a visible entity to this day. But the Northern ten tribes were taken away into exile and have now scattered around the world. Zech 2:6 Only God knows who they are. Amos 9:9 They are prophesied to rejoin in the last days and go back to their inheritance, all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 37
We also have the NT promises for those who believe in Jesus and keep His commandments, of grafting into Israel. In Rev 7:9...people from every race, nation and language...

Saved: Luke 21:34-36 puts it best - ...that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over [NO rapture at this time] pray for strength to escape all these things [REB trans: pass safely through] and to stand before the Son of Man. [in judgement]
Ezekiel 20:34-38 is a prophecy that says what will happen. Israel, true descendants and those grafted in, will be taken from the places to which they have been dispersed, 'by My strong hand and outpoured wrath'. This refers to the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, a worldwide punishment of His enemies by a judgement of fire. Deut 32:22 & 34-35, Isaiah 30:25-28
Israel will be 'passed under the rod' of judgement and those 'who revolt and rebel against the Lord, will not enter the holy Land'.
Righteous Israel will settle and become prosperous in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5 They will at last, be 'a light to the nations' and will 'display His glory to the world'. Ezekiel 39:27 It will be several years later, after all that must happen - such as the Gog/Magog attack and the Anti-Christ desecration the new Temple, that Jesus will Return for His millennial reign.
 

Retrobyter

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Oct 29, 2011
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Shalom, Wormwood.

Wormwood said:
Retrobyter,

Yes, you already made this argument and I refuted it. There are dozens, if not hundreds of Scriptures that use the term "saved" in reference to justification. I would point you to the book of Acts and the preaching of the Apostles. Salvation is almost always and ONLY used of justification which "saves" one from a wicked and corrupt generation. 1 Peter 3 declares that "baptism now saves you. Not the washing of dirt from the flesh but the plea to God for a clean conscience." I don't think you made a correction. I think you made an error and the folks conversing with you at church were right all along.
With all due respect, that's nonsense. You've "refuted" nothing. Only in your mind have you killed the straw man. "Saved" is LINKED to the concept of justification by God because many in Isra'el are indeed justified by God at the time of the Rescue when Yeshua` returns; however, the terms are NOT synonymous! 1 Peter 3:21 is a good example. If you think baptism has ANYTHING to do with God's justification of an individual, you have a LOT to learn about GOD'S justification of an individual!

I would submit to you that all of those "dozens, if not hundreds of Scriptures" that you THINK employ the term "saved in reference to justification" are misunderstood passages on your part. Here they are:

NT:4982 soozoo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):
KJV - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.


Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
KJV
Matthew 8:25
25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
KJV
Matthew 9:21
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
KJV
Matthew 9:22
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said,
Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
KJV
Matthew 9:22
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said
, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
KJV
Matthew 10:22
22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
KJV
Matthew 14:30
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
KJV
Matthew 16:25
25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
KJV
Matthew 18:11
11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV
Matthew 19:25
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
KJV
Matthew 24:13
13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
Matthew 24:22
22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV
Matthew 27:40
40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
KJV
Matthew 27:42
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
KJV
Matthew 27:42
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
KJV
Matthew 27:49
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
KJV
Mark 3:4
4 And he saith unto them,
Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
KJV
Mark 5:23
23 And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.
KJV
Mark 5:28
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
KJV
Mark 5:34
34 And he said unto her,
Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
KJV
Mark 6:56
56 And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as many as touched him were made whole.
KJV
Mark 8:35
35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
KJV
Mark 8:35
35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
KJV
Mark 10:26
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
KJV
Mark 10:52
52 And Jesus said unto him,
Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
KJV
Mark 13:13
13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
Mark 13:20
20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV
Mark 15:30
30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
KJV
Mark 15:31
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
KJV
Mark 15:31
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
KJV
Mark 16:16
16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV
Luke 6:9
9 Then said Jesus unto them,
I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
KJV
Luke 7:50
50 And he said to the woman,
Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
KJV
Luke 8:12
12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
KJV
Luke 8:36
36 They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed.
KJV
Luke 8:48
48 And he said unto her,
Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
KJV
Luke 8:50
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying,
Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
KJV
Luke 9:24
24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
KJV
Luke 9:24
24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
KJV
Luke 9:56
56
For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
KJV
Luke 13:23
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
KJV
Luke 17:19
19 And he said unto him,
Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
KJV
Luke 18:26
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
KJV
Luke 18:42
42 And Jesus said unto him,
Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
KJV
Luke 19:10
10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
KJV
Luke 23:35
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
KJV
Luke 23:35
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
KJV
Luke 23:37
37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
KJV
Luke 23:39
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
KJV
John 3:17
17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
KJV
John 5:34
34
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
KJV
John 10:9
9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
KJV
John 11:12
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
KJV
John 12:27
27
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
KJV
John 12:47
47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
KJV
Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV
Acts 2:40
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
KJV
Acts 2:47
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
KJV
Acts 4:9
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
KJV
Acts 4:12
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
KJV
Acts 11:14
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
KJV
Acts 14:9
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
KJV
Acts 15:1
15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
KJV
Acts 15:11
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
KJV
Acts 16:30
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
KJV
Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
KJV
Acts 27:20
20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
KJV
Acts 27:31
31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.
KJV

Romans 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
KJV
Romans 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
KJV
Romans 8:24
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
KJV
Romans 9:27
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
KJV
Romans 10:9
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV
Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV
Romans 11:14
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
KJV
Romans 11:26
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
KJV
1 Corinthians 1:18
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
KJV
1 Corinthians 1:21
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
KJV
1 Corinthians 3:15
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
1 Corinthians 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV
1 Corinthians 7:16
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
KJV
1 Corinthians 7:16
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
KJV
1 Corinthians 9:22
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
KJV
1 Corinthians 10:33
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:2
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
KJV
2 Corinthians 2:15
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
KJV
Ephesians 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
KJV
Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
KJV
1 Thessalonians 2:16
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
KJV
2 Thessalonians 2:10
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
KJV
1 Timothy 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
KJV
1 Timothy 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
KJV
1 Timothy 2:15
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
KJV
1 Timothy 4:16
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
KJV
2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
KJV
2 Timothy 4:18
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
KJV
Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
KJV
Hebrews 5:7
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
KJV
Hebrews 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
KJV
James 1:21
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
KJV
James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
KJV
James 4:12
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
KJV
James 5:15
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
KJV
James 5:20
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
KJV
1 Peter 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV
1 Peter 4:18
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
KJV
Jude 5
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
KJV
Jude 23
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
KJV
Revelation 21:24
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
KJV

NT:4990 sooteer (so-tare'); from NT:4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ:
KJV - saviour.


Luke 1:47
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
KJV
Luke 2:11
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
KJV
John 4:42
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
KJV
Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
KJV
Acts 13:23
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
KJV

Ephesians 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
KJV
Philippians 3:20
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV
1 Timothy 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
KJV
1 Timothy 2:3
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
KJV
1 Timothy 4:10
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
KJV
2 Timothy 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
KJV
Titus 1:3
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
KJV
Titus 1:4
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
KJV
Titus 2:10
10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
KJV
Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
KJV
Titus 3:4
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
KJV
Titus 3:6
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
KJV
2 Peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
KJV
2 Peter 1:11
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
KJV
2 Peter 2:20
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
KJV
2 Peter 3:2
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
KJV
2 Peter 3:18
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
KJV
1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
KJV
Jude 25
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
KJV

NT:4991 sooteeria (so-tay-ree'-ah); feminine of a derivative of NT:4990 as (properly, abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally):
KJV - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.


Luke 1:69
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
KJV
Luke 1:71
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
KJV
Luke 1:77
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
KJV
Luke 19:9
9 And Jesus said unto him,
This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
KJV
John 4:22
22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
KJV
Acts 4:12
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
KJV
Acts 7:25
25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
KJV
Acts 13:26
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
KJV
Acts 13:47
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
KJV
Acts 16:17
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
KJV
Acts 27:34
34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
KJV

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
KJV
Romans 10:1
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
KJV
Romans 10:10
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
KJV
Romans 11:11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
KJV
Romans 13:11
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
KJV
2 Corinthians 1:6
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
KJV
2 Corinthians 1:6
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
KJV
2 Corinthians 6:2
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
KJV
2 Corinthians 6:2
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
KJV
2 Corinthians 7:10
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
KJV
Ephesians 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV
Philippians 1:19
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
KJV
Philippians 1:28
28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
KJV
Philippians 2:12
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
KJV
1 Thessalonians 5:8
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
KJV
1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV
2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
KJV
2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV
2 Timothy 3:15
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
KJV
Hebrews 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV
Hebrews 2:3
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
KJV
Hebrews 2:10
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
KJV
Hebrews 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
KJV
Hebrews 6:9
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
KJV
Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV
Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
KJV
1 Peter 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
KJV
1 Peter 1:9
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
KJV
1 Peter 1:10
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
KJV
1 Peter 2:2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
KJV
2 Peter 3:15
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
KJV
Jude 3
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
KJV
Revelation 7:10
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV
Revelation 12:10
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
KJV
Revelation 19:1
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
KJV

NT:4992 sooteerion (so-tay'-ree-on); neuter of the same as NT:4991 as (properly, concretely) noun; defender or (by implication) defense [sic]:
KJV - salvation.


Luke 2:30
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
KJV
Luke 3:6
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
KJV
Acts 28:28
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
KJV

Ephesians 6:17
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
KJV
Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
KJV
Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
KJV


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc. Also used the Englishman’s Concordance employed by Biblesoft.)

Regarding 4982, there are 109 occurrences in the New Testament, 13 in the book of Acts.
Regarding 4990, there are 24 occurrences in the New Testament, 2 in the book of Acts.
Regarding 4991, there are 46 occurrences in the New Testament, 6 in the book of Acts.
Regarding 4992, there are 6 occurrences in the New Testament, 1 in the book of Acts.

Simply substitute "rescue" for "save," "rescuer" for "saviour" (Brittish spelling), and "rescue" for "salvation" and see how the verses are slightly altered. What you are experiencing is the correction to this common error.

Shalom, guysmith.

guysmith said:
Shalom Retrobyter,

This shield will go up the first day of the GT and last for the 1260 days of the GT. Just as God protected Israel in the wilderness with a "cloud and fire", He is going to also protect Jerusalem (Isaiah 4).

I can't discount your position on Judah. The problem is that 2/3 of the inhabitants of Israel are going to be killed by the armies of the A/C as it closes in on Jerusalem. Is it possible that there may be pockets of survivors in Judah? Maybe, however, there are no specific locations identified in the Bible like Jerusalem.

1. The two witnesses will prophesy from Jerusalem for the 1260 days of the GT (Revelation 11)
2. The 144,000 will be found "standing" on Mount Zion with Christ (Revelation 14)
3. Christ will fight for Jerusalem at His advent (Zechariah 14:1-5)
4. The Daughters of Zion will be protected on Mount Zion (Isaiah 4)
5. The "Remnant" will be "rescued" on Mount Zion (Joel 2:32)

…..just to name a few.

This is a "Noah Event" where God has deemed that certain end time believers are going to survive the coming "flood" of destruction and persecution. Mount Zion is the future "ark" and those "believers" that make it to this "sanctuary" will be "rescued".

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Actually, that's not quite right. Do you really think that God has to put up a shield for 3.5 years while He's rescuing Y'hudah?! NO! While it WILL take some time to do the rescuing, it won't take NEARLY that long! The shield doesn't go up until He has arrived and is actually in the PROCESS of rescuing His people. Before that time, Z'kharyahu tells us that the people of Yerushalayim are taken captive, the women are raped, and the houses are plundered! Why do you think He's in such a hurry to rescue them?!
 

Wormwood

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Retro,

I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that you are restructuring the parameters of this discussion to make your argument. I never said the word "saved" and justification are synonymous. I said the Bible often uses passages that speak of salvation in reference to justification. You said, "saved does not mean justified by God." I have shown you multiple passages that clearly indicate that the term saved OFTEN does mean this very thing. Take, for instance, Romans 5:1-11.

It is very obvious from this passage that Paul is clearly linking salvation and justification here. He begins by saying, "Since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." In verse 9 he goes on to say, "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." So, contextually, Paul is clearly linking justification through Christ as bringing salvation from God's wrath.

John 3:17 is another example. God so loved "the world" that he sent his son so that the world would not be condemned but would be saved through faith in the Son.

These verses clearly apply to all people and are not directed specifically to Israel (Romans was directed to the church in Rome that clearly had a large Gentile population). Justification in Christ and salvation from the wages of sin are two sides of the same coin. Certainly "saved" can refer to something other than justification and salvation from God's wrath. I never claimed otherwise. However, to suggest that salvation is not used in reference to justification is a tremendous error.

I would encourage you to read the verses that specifically relate to NT teaching on baptism. The Bible references baptism as being "washed, clothed with Christ, buried with Christ, raised with Christ and immersed into the body of Christ." And as I pointed out before, 1 Peter 3 says, "Baptism now saves you" and qualifies this statement that it is faith in Christ displayed in the act and not the water alone that brings salvation. In fact, Peter here links baptism and the Great Deluge as both saving the righteous from a world of evil. In my opinion, you are not dealing directly with the text. If the Bible says "baptism now saves you" and you claim baptism has nothing to do with salvation...my allegiance belongs to the Scripture unless you can show me how I am misinterpreting this seemingly straight-forward passage.

Finally, I would encourage you not to make statements that suggest that my disagreement with you revolves around my struggle in being reoriented with the truth you have presented. This comes across as arrogant and presumptuous. My disagreement is not because I am struggling with coming to the truth from a common error, but because I believe you are in error on this issue.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Wormwood.

Wormwood said:
Retro,

I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that you are restructuring the parameters of this discussion to make your argument. I never said the word "saved" and justification are synonymous. I said the Bible often uses passages that speak of salvation in reference to justification. You said, "saved does not mean justified by God." I have shown you multiple passages that clearly indicate that the term saved OFTEN does mean this very thing. Take, for instance, Romans 5:1-11.

It is very obvious from this passage that Paul is clearly linking salvation and justification here. He begins by saying, "Since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." In verse 9 he goes on to say, "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." So, contextually, Paul is clearly linking justification through Christ as bringing salvation from God's wrath.

John 3:17 is another example. God so loved "the world" that he sent his son so that the world would not be condemned but would be saved through faith in the Son.

These verses clearly apply to all people and are not directed specifically to Israel (Romans was directed to the church in Rome that clearly had a large Gentile population). Justification in Christ and salvation from the wages of sin are two sides of the same coin. Certainly "saved" can refer to something other than justification and salvation from God's wrath. I never claimed otherwise. However, to suggest that salvation is not used in reference to justification is a tremendous error.

I would encourage you to read the verses that specifically relate to NT teaching on baptism. The Bible references baptism as being "washed, clothed with Christ, buried with Christ, raised with Christ and immersed into the body of Christ." And as I pointed out before, 1 Peter 3 says, "Baptism now saves you" and qualifies this statement that it is faith in Christ displayed in the act and not the water alone that brings salvation. In fact, Peter here links baptism and the Great Deluge as both saving the righteous from a world of evil. In my opinion, you are not dealing directly with the text. If the Bible says "baptism now saves you" and you claim baptism has nothing to do with salvation...my allegiance belongs to the Scripture unless you can show me how I am misinterpreting this seemingly straight-forward passage.

Finally, I would encourage you not to make statements that suggest that my disagreement with you revolves around my struggle in being reoriented with the truth you have presented. This comes across as arrogant and presumptuous. My disagreement is not because I am struggling with coming to the truth from a common error, but because I believe you are in error on this issue.
Yes, it appears I misspoke suggesting that "your disagreement with me revolves around your struggle in being reoriented with the truth I've presented." There probably ISN'T a struggle in you regarding what you think my "truth" is, from your perspective, and I can see where that has been offensive to you and appears to you as arrogant and presumptuous on my part. Most aren't even AWARE that there is a "problem," as I have come to perceive it. Consequently, as I suggest that there is a problem of such magnitude, the simple answer is that I'm wrong. (I don't think so.)

Let's just take a closer look at Romans 5:1-11:

Romans 5:1-11
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

This is a past event in our lives, different timing for each one of us, but continues into the present. However, what is this "peace" we have? Upon what is this "peace" based? What was its opposite; with what was it contrasted?

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It's this "hope" that projects this statement into the future! "Hope" in the Bible is not a wish-so "feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen"; it's a KNOW-so "anticipation" and "feeling of trust!" It's a CONFIDENCE in what's coming because God is a God of His word! And, "glory" is not an abstract concept nor is it talking about "Heaven" to come! It is talking about a LITERAL GLOWING, just as Moses experienced when he had to hide his face with the veil!

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

This all has to do with our current standing with God BECAUSE we are already justified by God. Thus, it has to do with the present.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This has to do with the past. It describes the events in the Messiah's death as God's love toward us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Starting in the past - our past - namely, when we were justified, the first clause continues into the present, "now." The rest of the sentence is referring to a FUTURE event - God's wrath - and through the Messiah Yeshua` we SHALL BE rescued from it! It's not talking about "hell"; it's talking about God's JUDGMENT on this world!

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The "reconciliation" or the "trading places" is the means by which God can justify us. This is a past event that gives us good standing in the present. However, the last clause again projects into the FUTURE!

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

And, not just in the future, but also in the present, because we have received the atonement through our Master Yeshua` the Messiah.

KJV

Certainly, they are related! One cannot have the peace of God and confidence that we will be exempt from God's coming Wrath without God's justification/reconciliation/atonement! However, most personalize this coming Wrath as though it had to do with an INDIVIDUAL'S destiny with judgment and punishment if one is not already justified by God. Instead, one should see this coming Wrath at a NATIONAL level! Furthermore, we are not talking about a PERMANENT "spiritual" condition; we are talking about a particular event in the future when God stands up and fights for His people, righting the wrongs done against them! This doesn't happen just at the Great White Throne Judgment; it will also happen THROUGHOUT the 1,000 years prior to that Judgment, starting with God, through His Messiah, fighting against those who abuse His people, Isra'el.
 

Wormwood

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Yes, it appears I misspoke suggesting that "your disagreement with me revolves around your struggle in being reoriented with the truth I've presented." There probably ISN'T a struggle in you regarding what you think my "truth" is, from your perspective, and I can see where that has been offensive to you and appears to you as arrogant and presumptuous on my part. Most aren't even AWARE that there is a "problem," as I have come to perceive it. Consequently, as I suggest that there is a problem of such magnitude, the simple answer is that I'm wrong. (I don't think so.)
Thank you for the retraction and clarification. I appreciate your humility in the matter. I understand your point, so I am aware of what you feel the problem is. However, I disagree with your view (as you do with mine).

I understand your point that you are trying to distinguish between a present or past tense justification with the future event of salvation from God's wrath on a national or worldwide level. While I think contextually many passages speak of salvation and justification in these aspects, that is not always the case. I don't think we should try to classify every use of justification as always indicative of one particular idea or that salvation is always in reference to a future deliverance from wrath. Many times, "saved" is used in the aorist tense and refers to something that happened in the past as it is linked with justification. If what you are proposing is true, salvation should always be used in the future tense..but the Scriptures do not only address the concept in this way.

I think it is important to note that Paul does not only refer to God's wrath as a future event. In fact, Paul declares that the wrath of God is currently being revealed against ungodliness and wickedness of man that chooses to suppress the truth (Romans 1:18). Salvation is multifaceted. Not one word or concept can say all there is to say about these matters and so the Biblical authors often employ various terms, concepts, and images to convey how the work of Christ saves, justifies, sanctifies, and renews our past, present and future.

Finally, I again think you are taking some of these concepts way out of context. Paul says nothing of the 1,000 years, national Israel, or anything of that nature in Romans 5. In my opinion, this passage is clearly talking about the people of faith (Jews and Gentiles) in the first century and their standing before God in that moment (and why both have equal standing through faith in Christ)...there is nothing here about some future event involving God's judgment on nations who mistreat national Israel. To suggest otherwise is a major hermeneutical error in my opinion. You are importing ideas into the letter to the Romans that you assume he implied based on your reading of John's Revelation. I think we need to allow Paul's letter to speak for itself without trying to decode it by inserting eschatological ideas you have derived from other places in the Bible (and even they don't explicitly teach what you are suggesting).