Retrobyter concerning All Israel???

Mt. 1:21

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall "save" his people from their sins.


Lu 2:11

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a "Saviour", which is Christ the Lord.

Wormwood: It sounds like you're doing it, too. "Saved" does NOT mean "justified by God." It means "rescued" or "delivered." It is a common mistake, but once one is aware of the difference, he should work to avoid that mistake in the future. It's hard, I know. It took me a long time to make the correction, especially when I was constantly going to church and hearing the same mistake over and over by every Christian with whom I talked.

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Retrobyter

The Scripture texts above declares that Jesus will "save" His people from their sins and that He is the "Saviour" of the world. Why would you want to change what God wrote? It seems to me you are saying that you know more than God!

Have you ever thought that it was you all along who was mistaken and not the people in your church?

I'm beginning to wonder if you really know the meaning of the phrase,"Saviour of the world."

Jesus' title was "Saviour" and NOT "rescuer."

To God Be The Glory

Shalom, Jun2u.

Jun2u said:

Mt. 1:21

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall "save" his people from their sins.


Lu 2:11

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a "Saviour", which is Christ the Lord.



Retrobyter

The Scripture texts above declares that Jesus will "save" His people from their sins and that He is the "Saviour" of the world. Why would you want to change what God wrote? It seems to me you are saying that you know more than God!

Have you ever thought that it was you all along who was mistaken and not the people in your church?

I'm beginning to wonder if you really know the meaning of the phrase,"Saviour of the world."

Jesus' title was "Saviour" and NOT "rescuer."

To God Be The Glory

Click to expand...

As far as Matthew 1:21 is concerned, the key question is "WHEN?" That is, "When will Yeshua` save His people from their sins?" God, knowing that the Jews would REJECT His Son and crucify Him, would place this occurring in the future AFTER He had been crucified, AFTER He was buried, AFTER He rose again, AFTER He ascended, and AFTER He returns! To reiterate:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
KJV

Isaiah 59:15-21
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
KJV

Isaiah 27:2-13
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
3 I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
5 Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.
6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.
7 Hath he smitten him, as he smote those that smote him? or is he slain according to the slaughter of them that are slain by him?
8 In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.
9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.
10 Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof.
11 When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, and set them on fire: for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will shew them no favour.
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
KJV

Micah 7:18-20
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.
KJV

This will be at a FUTURE EVENT! He doesn't "save His people from their sins" one at a time; He will save them COLLECTIVELY when He returns! That's what Romans 11 is talking about because that is also what Jeremiah 31:31-34 is talking about! All we have today is a SAMPLING of that New Covenant - a mere GLIMPSE of what is to come!

As far as Luke 2:11 is concerned, the key words are "Christ the Lord!" He is not only the Savior; He is also the Christ - the Messiah! - the Lord - the Master! For any newbies out there, "Christ" is not a name; it is His TITLE! The Greek word "Christos" is the translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiach." "Christos" was transliterated into English as "Christ," but "Mashiach" was transliterated into Greek as "Messias" which in turn was transliterated into English as "Messiah."

There have been several "mashiach" figures in history since the early days of the Exodus. Mosheh's (Moses') own brother, Aharown (Aaron), was the first high priest and was the first to be anointed (along with his sons) with the new anointing oil, described in Exodus 30:22-33. Thus, they became the first to be "anointed ones" or "mashiachiym" or "messiahs." In addition to priests, prophets and kings were also so anointed, and one that was anointed was one whom God specifically selected for that particular office.

The term "Mashiach" in Hebrew prophecy is PREGNANT with meaning! It was talking about the great Descendant of David who would reign as King forever, even becoming the King of kings, like N'vukhadnetsar (Nebuchadnezzar) of Bavel (Babylon) was - a World Emperor! He was the superhero of the Jews, as powerful as the Superman of our comic books ... WITHOUT the kryptonite! Every Jew was elated to hear the prophecies about the coming of Mashiach! Many would even cheer when He was mentioned, especially children!

But, as Galadriel of "The Lord of the Rings" movie trilogy said, "And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth." And, many of the Hebrews changed the image of the Messiah into that of Santa Claus - a nice bed-time story for the children, but without any real hope for fulfillment. So, when Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) and Yeshua` came on the scene, the message was ...

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

And, what was this "gospel (or good news or good tidings) about God's Kingdom?"

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (Hebrew: yeshuw`ah = "RESCUE"); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

THAT'S the message of the Gospel of the Kingdom!

"Savior" MEANS "Deliverer" or "Rescuer" just like "salvation" MEANS "deliverance" or "rescue!"

OT:3444 yeshuw`ah (yesh-oo'-aw); feminine passive participle of OT:3467; something saved, i.e. (abstractly) deliverance; hence, aid, victory, prosperity:
KJV - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It's also the Aramaic/Hebrew word from which Yeshua`s name comes!

OT:3442 Yeshuwa` (yay-shoo'-ah); for OT:3091; he will save; Jeshua, the name of ten Israelites, also of a place in Palestine:
KJV - Jeshua.

OT:3443 Yeshuwa` (Aramaic) (yay-shoo'-ah); corresponding to OT:3442:
KJV - Jeshua.

OT:3091 Yehowshuwa` (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); or Yehowshu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); from OT:3068 and OT:3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader:
-Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare OT:1954, OT:3442.

OT:3068 Yehovah (yeh-ho-vaw'); from OT:1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:
KJV - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare OT:3050, OT:3069.

OT:3467 yasha` (yaw-shah'); a primitive root; properly, to be open, wide or free, i.e. (by implication) to be safe; causatively, to free or succor:
KJV - at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.

OT:1954 Howsheea` (ho-shay'-ah); from OT:3467; deliverer; Hoshea, the name of five Israelites:
KJV - Hosea, Hoshea, Oshea.
NT:2424 Ieesous (ee-ay-sooce'); of Hebrew origin [OT:3091]; Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites:
KJV - Jesus.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, with all due respect to the people who wrote the Dictionary of the Greek Language in Strong's Concordance, "Jesus" does NOT come from "Yehowshuwa`" but rather directly from "Yeshuwa`." The beginning yod (Y) simply is the translation of the third-person, singular, masculine form of the verb. Still they both come from the same root.

Isaiah 4:4-6
4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

5And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
6And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the day time from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

The fleeing Jews will have the glory cloud again like in the 40 year wilderness trip.

Shabbat shalom, Eric. (Shabbat starts at sundown with the sighting of the first three stars.)

Eric E Stahl said:

Isaiah 4:4-6
4When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

5And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
6And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the day time from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

The fleeing Jews will have the glory cloud again like in the 40 year wilderness trip.

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Absolutely right! That is PRECISELY the same cloud! It represents His presence (Hebrew: shkinaah) and His glory (Hebrew: kvowd) in a VERY literal way!

in Rev.1:7 the same question arises. There won't be anyone living that pierced him. It says they that pierced him. We have to remember Greek to English translation. Also that The Jews put him to the cross but by the Romans. I like how the bible does these things. Those who read with a strong analysis of the bible also are required to think and put things together. other wise they just read
and miss the value of things that are important.

When Jesus comes back to Jerusalem for his reign on the earth, All people's will call him who he is by their language. Some will say Jesus others will say Yeshuah others will call him Lord, others my Messiah. The Father said to Moses tell them Yahweh sent you. His name meant I am to be. Jesus (salvation and deliverer) Christ or Messiah mean anointed.

Demons came out in the name of Jesus, and a Jew could say his name in Hebrew would be the same.

The Greek new Testament (covenant) Came about due to Jews and Greeks going into the gentile Islands
preaching the gospel of Christ. Paul being the leader as a Jew and a Greek and of Roman also. That should help us see the differences of language by one man who preached the gospel in different languages. Not forgetting he spoke in tongues to other peoples around the world. He said I speak in tongues more than you all. He said that humbly.

Shabbat shalom, brodav9.

brodav9 said:

in Rev.1:7 the same question arises. There won't be anyone living that pierced him. It says they that pierced him. We have to remember Greek to English translation. Also that The Jews put him to the cross but by the Romans. I like how the bible does these things. Those who read with a strong analysis of the bible also are required to think and put things together. other wise they just read
and miss the value of things that are important.

When Jesus comes back to Jerusalem for his reign on the earth, All people's will call him who he is by their language. Some will say Jesus others will say Yeshuah others will call him Lord, others my Messiah. The Father said to Moses tell them Yahweh sent you. His name meant I am to be. Jesus (salvation and deliverer) Christ or Messiah mean anointed.

Demons came out in the name of Jesus, and a Jew could say his name in Hebrew would be the same.

The Greek new Testament (covenant) Came about due to Jews and Greeks going into the gentile Islands
preaching the gospel of Christ. Paul being the leader as a Jew and a Greek and of Roman also. That should help us see the differences of language by one man who preached the gospel in different languages. Not forgetting he spoke in tongues to other peoples around the world. He said I speak in tongues more than you all. He said that humbly.

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OH, NO!!! Don't tell me YOU'VE never heard of a resurrection, either! What good is a "Christian church" or "Christianity" without the "BLESSED HOPE?!!" Look, the people who put Yeshua` (His GIVEN name, not a translation but a TRANSLITERATION into English) to the Roman execution stake called a "cross" were ALL OF US! ANYONE OF US WHO NEEDED GOD'S JUSTIFICATION is guilty of nailing Him to the cross, for He went to the cross FOR THAT PURPOSE! It wasn't "just the Jews" or "just the Romans" who crucified Him! The Jews may have said,

Matthew 27:24-26
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
KJV

but Yeshua` also cried from the cross,

Luke 23:33-34
33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
KJV

This shows that Yeshua` Himself did not hold their sin of crucifying Him against them!

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV

A ball chain (or a bead chain) is that type of chain usually attached to light sockets and fans to pull the switch and turn on the light or the fan. Think of a ball chain or a bead chain such that each ball is solder-fused on one side with the connecting bar leading to the next ball. That's the image we are given in the book of Hebrews regarding the generational link from father to son in each generation down through time.

Hebrews 7:1-10
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
KJV

It is the genetic link that each child has with his father (and mother)! It's a TELESCOPING effect! Therefore, whether it is the future part of the chain or the past part of the chain, all who are related to those who actually caused the death of the Messiah Yeshua` are tied to that crucifixion! This is why the Jews said, "His blood be on us and on our children." Whether the ancestors of the Messiah who was crucified or the ancestors of those who crucified Him (often being the same ancestors), they, too, are linked to His crucifixion. That is also why Zechariah 12 says,

Zechariah 12:8-14
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

For when one looks at the names in Hebrew used in verses 12 and 13, they are identical to the names in Hebrew used in Luke 3:

Zechariah 12:12-14
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB

Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB

Thus, these families named in Z'kharyahu's prophecy are the SAME FAMILIES in Yeshua`s lineage! Therefore, this will occur AFTER their Resurrection! Why else would they be so distraught by Yeshua`s death as "the death of their only son or of their firstborn son?" When one rattles a particular link in a hanging chain, it affects all the links above and below it! Just as a child gone bad reflects on the parents through that child's up-bringing, the piercing of the Messiah will reflect on the parents of the ones doing the piercing!

And, in closing, I'll just say it again, directly for you: Paul didn't preach any gospel different than did the Messiah Himself!

Retrobyter

[SIZE=11pt]You are smart academically but you are not spiritual, and therefore do not understand the things of God (ICor. 2:13-14). Please, don’t get me wrong. You may understand many verses in Scripture but overall, you do not see the bigger picture because they are spiritually discerned as per the example of the “all Israel” in Ro 11[/SIZE]

As far as Matthew 1:21 is concerned, the key question is "WHEN?" That is, "When will Yeshua` save His people from their sins?" God, knowing that the Jews would REJECT His Son and crucify Him, would place this occurring in the future AFTER He had been crucified, AFTER He was buried, AFTER He rose again, AFTER He ascended, and AFTER He returns!

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Do you really believe the occurrences you stated above has happened and/or will happen “after” each occurrence? While Jesus hung on the cross and Did Not Die as yet, He uttered the words "It is finished!" How can this be seeing that without the shedding of blood there is no remission (for sin)? Heb 9:22

What was finished? The atonement! Did Jesus really shed His blood in A.D. 33? Could He have died prior? Yes He did!

The cross was only a demonstration! Surprised? Shocked? Did I not say you do not see the bigger picture? If Jesus literally died back there in A.D. 33, how then did the Old Testament believers like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, and the like have become saved? Only when we see that Jesus is the “lamb slain” from the foundation of the world Re 13:8. Ever wondered how the Old Testament believers become saved? Now you know.

The above is one of many reasons why you don’t understand the deeper meaning of scripture texts. Each and every true believer have a very special unique relationship with Jesus. Four times in Jo 6 He said “I will raise him up on the last day” Do these terms in Jo 6 suggests to you that the believers are saved from their sins “collectively?” Scripture tell us that Jesus gives us eternal life “now” (Jo 6:47). God takes us out of the dominion of Satan into the dominion of Jesus.

This will be at a FUTURE EVENT! He doesn't "save His people from their sins" one at a time; He will save them COLLECTIVELY when He returns! That's what Romans 11 is talking about

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Lu 17:35,36

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

[SIZE=11pt]These verses is a picture of the believers being “caught up/rapture” NOT “collectively” but “individually.” The verses do not support your theory that Jesus saves “collectively” when He Returns.[/SIZE]

And, what was this "gospel (or good news or good tidings) about God's Kingdom?"

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (Hebrew: yeshuw`ah = "RESCUE"); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

THAT'S the message of the Gospel of the Kingdom!

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Isa 52:7 mirrors Ro 10:15. The message of the Gospel of the Kingdom is “Mercy” as the example set forth by the publican in Lu 18 as he cried, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner.” This is how we ought to come to God.

Concerning the term, “Saviour of the world” it merely states that in all the world there is only one who has the power to save and that there is no other.


Which Israel is in view in Ro 11?

Is it JESUS? National Israel? or The Israel of God?

Jer 3:8

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

When a woman was found in adultery in the Old Testament, she was punished by being stoned to death. When Ancient Israel committed adultery against God He could not put her away by stoning her for out of Ancient Israel, Jesus still had to be born. God had to create a law so He could separate Himself from backsliding Israel. And, the divorce became final as Jesus hung on the cross and the veil of curtain in the temple was rent in two and did signal the separation .

De 24:1-4

1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

The scripture texts above are self explanatory and need no interpretation.

I believe the key passage that ended the relationship between God and Ancient Israel as the chosen people is verse 4. God does not owe any more promises to National Israel except for a remnant chosen by grace, which is also true for every nations in the world that consists of true believers… the "Israel of God."

To God Be The Glory

Jun2u said:

Retrobyter

[SIZE=11pt]You are smart academically but you are not spiritual, and therefore do not understand the things of God (ICor. 2:13-14). Please, don’t get me wrong. You may understand many verses in Scripture but overall, you do not see the bigger picture because they are spiritually discerned as per the example of the “all Israel” in Ro 11[/SIZE]

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First, let me just say THANK YOU! I've seen what being "spiritual" does to one's interpretation of the Bible, and I'm glad I'm NOT "spiritual," in your estimation! Sometime, however, take the time and effort to look up every verse in the New Testament that uses the word "spiritual." Forget all the "definitions" floating around out there for this Greek word (pneumatikos), and just look at the contextual clues as to how this word was used and applied in those various Scriptures. THEN come back and tell me that you found that it means what you currently THINK it means!

Jun2u said:

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Do you really believe the occurrences you stated above has happened and/or will happen “after” each occurrence? While Jesus hung on the cross and Did Not Die as yet, He uttered the words "It is finished!" How can this be seeing that without the shedding of blood there is no remission (for sin)? Heb 9:22

What was finished? The atonement! Did Jesus really shed His blood in A.D. 33? Could He have died prior? Yes He did!

The cross was only a demonstration! Surprised? Shocked? Did I not say you do not see the bigger picture? If Jesus literally died back there in A.D. 33, how then did the Old Testament believers like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, and the like have become saved? Only when we see that Jesus is the “lamb slain” from the foundation of the world Re 13:8. Ever wondered how the Old Testament believers become saved? Now you know.

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In an English translation, Yeshua`s words were "It is finished." In Greek, it is the single word "Tetelestai!" Isn't it interesting that it is the VERY WORD that was used in the Greek culture to stamp a bill "PAID IN FULL" when someone paid off his debt? The cross was only a demonstration?! Are you MESHUGGAH (Hebrew for "CRAZY")?!!!

No, Yeshua` DID LITERALLY DIE AND SHED HIS BLOOD in (or around) 33 A.D. Yes, Yeshua` was already slated to die before the foundation of the world and in God's eyes (who sees all of time at once), it was a done deal before the Creation week began, but that doesn't make the actual occurrence unnecessary! God is like Yogi Berra in this respect: "It ain't over 'til it's OVER!" If God had it all decided before the Creation, then WHY didn't He just go ... POOF! ... all done! Jump to the back page of the Bible! NO! God knows the future perfectly; in fact, He DECLARES the future perfectly, controlling how it unfolds, but He doesn't RECOGNIZE it as having happened until it happens!

Yes, I'm shocked ... that you would even SUGGEST such a hair-brained idea! How did the Old Testament believers like Avraham, Mosheh, Ya`aqov, Yitschaq, and the like have become justified by God? They were justified THROUGH FAITH by God's grace and by the blood of an animal sacrifice which was a PICTURE of what was to come when haKeves Elohiym (the Lamb of God) was sacrificed!

Let me try Isaiah 53 again because you OBVIOUSLY missed what it says!

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV

NOTICE! The words are "HE SHALL" not "He did" in verses 10 and 11!

Jun2u said:

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The above is one of many reasons why you don’t understand the deeper meaning of scripture texts. Each and every true believer have a very special unique relationship with Jesus. Four times in Jo 6 He said “I will raise him up on the last day” Do these terms in Jo 6 suggests to you that the believers are saved from their sins “collectively?” Scripture tell us that Jesus gives us eternal life “now” (Jo 6:47). God takes us out of the dominion of Satan into the dominion of Jesus.

Lu 17:35,36

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

[SIZE=11pt]These verses is a picture of the believers being “caught up/rapture” NOT “collectively” but “individually.” The verses do not support your theory that Jesus saves “collectively” when He Returns.[/SIZE]

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Nope. First, don't confuse the beginning of that last 1000-year day with the ending of that last 1000-year day!
Second, God does give us eternal life now, but He does so by giving us the EARNEST (or DOWN PAYMENT) of the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit)! Neither you nor I have our indestructible, incorruptible, immortal, and indefatigable bodies, as yet. We don't get those until the resurrection.
Third, Luke 17:35-36 are not about the future - our future - at all! They were fulfilled in the first century! This is not a "rapture" context! It's not those who are taken who are rescued; it is those who are LEFT! TIMING is EVERYTHING!

Jun2u said:

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Isa 52:7 mirrors Ro 10:15. The message of the Gospel of the Kingdom is “Mercy” as the example set forth by the publican in Lu 18 as he cried, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner.” This is how we ought to come to God.

Concerning the term, “Saviour of the world” it merely states that in all the world there is only one who has the power to save and that there is no other.


Which Israel is in view in Ro 11?

Is it JESUS? National Israel? or The Israel of God?

Jer 3:8

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

When a woman was found in adultery in the Old Testament, she was punished by being stoned to death. When Ancient Israel committed adultery against God He could not put her away by stoning her for out of Ancient Israel, Jesus still had to be born. God had to create a law so He could separate Himself from backsliding Israel. And, the divorce became final as Jesus hung on the cross and the veil of curtain in the temple was rent in two and did signal the separation .

De 24:1-4

1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

The scripture texts above are self explanatory and need no interpretation.

I believe the key passage that ended the relationship between God and Ancient Israel as the chosen people is verse 4. God does not owe any more promises to National Israel except for a remnant chosen by grace, which is also true for every nations in the world that consists of true believers… the "Israel of God."

To God Be The Glory

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There you go confusing "saved" with "justified by God" again! While you're right that "in all the world there is only One who has the power to save and that there is no other," you are wrong to think that "to save" is talking about "to justify!" And, you have NO CLUE what the message of the Gospel of the Kingdom is. That's a shame, because you will consistently miss the point until you understand this gospel.

Which Isra'el is in view in Romans 11? The SAME Isra'el as it has ALWAYS been, because this Isra'el is CONTRASTED WITH the Gentiles who are believers in that chapter!

"The divorce became final"?!!!! You ARE meshuggah! You better HOPE that the divorce is not final! If God can put away national Isra'el permanently, then He LIED! and you have NO HOPE FOR A FUTURE! If God can renege on His promises to Isra'el, then who's to say that He won't renege on promises to YOU?!!! (In fact, Romans 11 SAYS that!)

Romans 11:17-24
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you! 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER!
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF! 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE!
NIV

This "replacement theology" you're teaching is JUST PLAIN NUTS!!!

Isaiah 49:7-15
7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee!
KJV

Psalm 89:1-37
89 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

And, this is just TWO passages among many that promise blessings to national Isra'el!

Again, IF HE CAN'T KEEP HIS PROMISES TO ISRA'EL, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HE WILL KEEP HIS PROMISES TO YOU?!!!