this age, and the age to come

Shalom, Angelina.

Angelina said:

Too many words Retro...miles too many... :unsure:

Click to expand...

Sorry, but what would you have me cut?

Shalom, Arnie.

Arnie Manitoba said:

Retrobyter is very knowledgeable and often correct (in my opinion)

Trouble is , when somebody asks him for the correct time , he proceeds to tell everybody how to build a Swiss watch.

To put all that effort into a huge post , and not have anybody read it , or learn anything , accomplishes nothing

Shorter concise replies are much more beneficial.

I hate to see his talent go to waste ..... but I also hate to waste time reading how to construct a Swiss watch when I do not need it.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your encouragement.

What if someone THOUGHT he had a "Swiss watch" but didn't know it was a cheap knock-off? He might read on how a Swiss watch is built and realize, "Oh! That's why my watch is always losing time! I've been sold a fake!"

My problem is that I know how hard it is for ME to access the archives of what has been said in this forum. So, I just want to make sure that everyone who comes here with a typical Christian background knows where I'm coming from.

Shalom, Poppin.

Poppin said:

Ezekiel 45 for example
thank you retro
nevertheless the passages people use for millennialism state explicitly animals are to be brought to a temple and sacrificed to make atonement for sIn.
they say for sin.
how anyone might change that meaning is another matter.
but they say make atonement for .
Poppin

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this for a while, and the best way I think that I can get this across to you is to use the old saying, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." It's a matter of interpretation ... LITERALLY! A single word in Hebrew is often responsible for a whole phrase in English. For instance, the Hebrew word kachaTaa't has been translated as "according to the sin offering." However, the ka- prefix means "like" or "as," which MAY mean "according to," depending on the context, but "chaTaa't" means "an-offense" or "an-offender," which also MAY refer to the "offering" that pays for such an offense. Thus, it could read, "like-an-offense-offering," and it probably SHOULD read that way.

The other thing that many miss in Ezekiel is this:
Ezekiel 45:17
17 It will be the duty of the prince (Yeshua`) to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths — at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel. HE will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement (to cover) for the house of Israel.
NIV

Most Christians FEAR and SHY AWAY from the Old Testament sacrificial system, but the truth is that it was mostly a way for the cohaniym (priests) and haLviyim (the Levites) to EAT! Even the word "chaag" which means "festival" refers to a FEAST!

One should not think of these feasts as "required by the Law" but rather as "celebrations; parties" for a happy time with God and His Prince. Think of the sacrifices as "cook-outs," and SOMEBODY has to slaughter the meat!

HE brings the meat ("the burnt offerings"), the vegetables ("grain offerings"), and the wine ("drink offerings") and desserts ("fellowship offerings") at the parties! He just says, "Y'all come!"

Poppin said:

What are the two ages?
May we examine them?

Luke 18
29And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 10
29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

.....

is the age to come eternity (after Judgment)?
Poppin

Click to expand...

[SIZE=11pt]Poppin, can we take Psalm 72 as one such example of the millennial age. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Can you explain when and how Psalm 72 will be fulfilled? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Sorry and make that Psalm 45 & 46 also[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]45:17[/SIZE][SIZE=80%] [/SIZE]I will proclaim your greatness through the coming years,[SIZE=80%]49[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]then the nations will praise you50[/SIZE] forever.

This cannot happen in the earth if Christ is not King from Jerusalem

[SIZE=80%]46:5 [/SIZE]God lives within it (Jerusalem) ,[SIZE=80%]13[/SIZE] it cannot be moved.[SIZE=80%]14[/SIZE]
God rescues it[SIZE=80%]15[/SIZE] at the break of dawn.[SIZE=80%]16[/SIZE]
[SIZE=80%]46:6 [/SIZE]Nations are in uproar, kingdoms are overthrown.[SIZE=80%]17[/SIZE]
God[SIZE=80%]18[/SIZE] gives a shout,[SIZE=80%]19[/SIZE] the earth dissolves.[SIZE=80%]20[/SIZE]
[SIZE=80%]46:7 [/SIZE]The Lord who commands armies is on our side![SIZE=80%]21[/SIZE]
The God of Jacob[SIZE=80%]22[/SIZE] is our protector![SIZE=80%]23[/SIZE]

Christ in Jerusalem enthroned while with the nations are raging round about.

[SIZE=80%]46:9 [/SIZE]He brings an end to wars throughout the earth;[SIZE=80%]26[/SIZE]
he shatters[SIZE=80%]27[/SIZE] the bow and breaks[SIZE=80%]28[/SIZE] the spear;
he burns[SIZE=80%]29[/SIZE] the shields with fire.[SIZE=80%]30[/SIZE]
[SIZE=80%]46:10 [/SIZE]He says,[SIZE=80%]31[/SIZE] “Stop your striving and recognize[SIZE=80%]32[/SIZE] that I am God!
I will be exalted[SIZE=80%]33[/SIZE] over[SIZE=80%]34[/SIZE] the nations! I will be exalted over[SIZE=80%]35[/SIZE] the earth!”
[SIZE=80%]46:11 [/SIZE]The Lord who commands armies is on our side![SIZE=80%]36[/SIZE]
The God of Jacob[SIZE=80%]37[/SIZE] is our protector![SIZE=80%]38[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Christ will bring an end to wars during the millennial age; initially and then finally before sin and death is swallowed up.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Of course then you have an even greater problem with Psalm 67 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]47:1 [/SIZE]All you nations, clap your hands! (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]Shout out to God in celebration!1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]47:2 [/SIZE]For the sovereign Lord[SIZE=80%]2[/SIZE] is awe-inspiring;[SIZE=80%]3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]he is the great king who rules the whole earth!4[/SIZE] (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]47:3 [/SIZE]He subdued nations beneath us[SIZE=80%]5[/SIZE] (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]and countries6[/SIZE] under our feet. (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]47:4 [/SIZE]He picked out for us a special land[SIZE=80%]7[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]to be a source of pride for8[/SIZE] Jacob,[SIZE=80%]9[/SIZE] whom he loves.[SIZE=80%]10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Selah)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]47:5 [/SIZE]God has ascended his throne[SIZE=80%]11[/SIZE] amid loud shouts;[SIZE=80%]12[/SIZE] (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]the Lord[/SIZE] has ascended his throne amid the blaring of ram’s horns.[SIZE=80%]13[/SIZE] (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]47:6 [/SIZE]Sing to God! Sing!
[SIZE=11pt]Sing to our king! Sing![/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]47:7 [/SIZE]For God is king of the whole earth! (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]Sing a well-written song!14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]47:8 [/SIZE]God reigns[SIZE=80%]15[/SIZE] over the nations! (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]God sits on his holy throne![/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]47:9 [/SIZE]The nobles of the nations assemble, (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]along with the people of the God of Abraham,16[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]for God has authority over the rulers17[/SIZE] of the earth. (This is unfulfilled prophecy)
[SIZE=11pt]He is highly exalted!18[/SIZE] (This is unfulfilled prophecy)

I am proving the millennial age from the Psalm and we have not look at the apocalypse

Psalm 2

[SIZE=80%]2:1 [/SIZE]Why[SIZE=80%]1[/SIZE] do the nations rebel?[SIZE=80%]2[/SIZE]
Why[SIZE=80%]3[/SIZE] are the countries[SIZE=80%]4[/SIZE] devising[SIZE=80%]5[/SIZE] plots that will fail?[SIZE=80%]6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=80%]2:2 [/SIZE]The kings of the earth[SIZE=80%]7[/SIZE] form a united front;[SIZE=80%]8[/SIZE]
the rulers collaborate[SIZE=80%]9[/SIZE]
against the Lord and his anointed king.[SIZE=80%]10[/SIZE]

The nations are yet to collaborate against the Master.

[SIZE=80%]2:5 [/SIZE]Then he angrily speaks to them
and terrifies them in his rage,[SIZE=80%]17[/SIZE] saying,[SIZE=80%]18[/SIZE]
[SIZE=80%]2:6 [/SIZE]“I myself[SIZE=80%]19[/SIZE] have installed[SIZE=80%]20[/SIZE] my king
on Zion, my holy hill.”
[SIZE=80%]2:7 [/SIZE]The king says,[SIZE=80%]21[/SIZE] “I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me:[SIZE=80%]22[/SIZE]

God is yet to install His King in Zion - get use to it Poppin hes going to be there for a typical period of 1000 years until he has put all his enemies under his feet.


[SIZE=11pt]Purity[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]

Shalom, Poppin.

Poppin said:

It says clearly - FOR A SIN OFFERING. Animal sacrifice.
And you know it does.
All the passages do.
Because they were all fulfilled while there was a temple.
Millennialism is error. We can easily discount it.
There's a thread.

Love in Christ
Poppin

Click to expand...

Nonsense. Now, you're just grasping at straws. There are a LOT of prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled.

Sure there's a thread, and it's in the fabric of amillennialism, and if you pull on it, it will unravel.

Not all animal sacrifice is for a sin offering! Qorbanot are often for other reasons. It only says "for a sin offering" in the English translations! English translations are NOT inspired! To the contrary, they are works of men in an attempt to make God's Word originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek available to the masses. However, no translation is perfect, because no translation between two languages is one-to-one.

Here's the passage in transliterated Hebrew:

Yechezq’el 45:15-25
15 V-seh achat min hatso’n min hamaa’tayim mimashqeeh Yisaa’eel l-minchaah uwl`owlaah v-lishlaamiym l-khapeer `aleeyhem n’um Adonaay YHWH:
16 Kol haa`aam haa’aarets yihyuw el hatruwmaah hazo’t lanaasiy’ b-Yisraa’eel:
17 V`al hanaasiy’ yihyeh haa`owlowt vhaminchaah vhaneecek bachagiym uwVechaadashiym uwVashabaatowt b-khaal mow`adeey beeyt Yisraa’eel huw’ ya`aseh et hachaTaa’t v’et haminchaah v’et haa`owlaah v’et hashlaamiym l-khapeer b`ad beeyt Yisraa’eel:
18 Koh aamar Adonaay YHWH baari’shown b’echaad lachodesh tiqach par ben baaqaar taamiym v-chiTee’taa et hamiqdaash:
19 V-laaqach hakoheen midam hachaTaa’t v-neetan el m-zuwzat habayit v’el arba` pinowt haa`azaaraah lamizbeeach v`al m-zuwzat sha`ar hechaatseer hapniymiyt:
20 V-kheen ta`aseh b-shiV`aah bachodesh mee’iysh shogeh uwmipetiy v-khipartem et habaayit:
21 Baari’shown b’arbaa`aah `aasaar yowm lachodesh yihyeh laakhem haPaacach Chaag Sh’Vu`owt yaamiym matsowt yee’aakheel:
22 V`aasaah hanaasiy’ bayowm hahuw’ ba`adow uwV`ad kaal `am haa’aarets par chaTaa’t:
23 V-shiV`at ymeey hechaag ya`aseh `owlaah la-YHWH shiV`at paariym v-shiV`at eeyliym t-miymim layowm shiV`at hayaamiym v-chaTaa’t s`iyr `iziym layowm:
24 Uwminchaah eeyfaah lapaar v’eeyfaah laa’ayil ya`aseh v-shemen hiyn laa’eeyfaah:
25 BashViy`iy bachamishaah yowm lachodesh bechaag ya`aseh kaa’eeleh shiV`at hayaamiym kachaTaa’t kaa`olaah v-khaminchaah v-khashaamen:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

Show me where it says "for a sin offering."

Poppin said:

What are the two ages?
May we examine them?

Luke 18
29And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 10
29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

.....

is the age to come eternity (after Judgment)?
Poppin

Click to expand...

The purposes of the Ages is for God to reveal to His people His Plan of the future. It is
a progressive plan that is unveiled to people who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Most
people, as Jesus said, will not understand the message, but that will not stop the progress
in the Kingdom.

When Moses came on the scene, he revealed to the people the Passover Feast, which was,
the type and shadow of the Lamb without spot or blemish that represented Jesus Christ, the
true Lamb that took away the sin of the world. The world lived in that Age of Passover for
about 1500 years, because Israel as a nation, rejected their Pentecost @ Mount Sinai (Exodus
20:19).

The world lived under the Passover influence until Jesus came and changed the way a person
could relate to God. At Passover the Spirit was upon the congregation and they would have to
move where the Spirit (cloud by day and fire by night) would move for their protection. But
things changed or progressed when Jesus came on the scene several hundred years later. Now,
after Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, fifty days later the Pentecostal church was born.

What was the difference? Now we can have the Spirit within us (Pentecost) and not just upon
us (Passover). John says in 7:39,

39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed
in Him were to receive ; for the Spirit was not yet given,
because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Did you see that? Things were fixing to change and the Kingdom of God was @ the point of a
great and progressive change that would cause the church to operate with POWER . In the
first chapter of Acts verse eight, Jesus said you will receive POWER after that the Holy Ghost
comes upon you. In other words, the Age of Pentecost began when about 120 people were in
the upper room and the Holy Ghost sat upon each of them and they were filled with POWER
(Acts 2:4).

For the last 2000 years, we have been living under the influence of the Pentecostal Feast, but
that brings us to the present. The next great and progressive change that Christians should be
waiting for is the redemption of their bodies. Rom. 8:23 says,

23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the
first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within
ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the
redemption of our body.

We are @ the brink of even a greater progression of the Kingdom called "the Tabernacles Age",
where overcomers will be chosen by God to increase the Kingdom in a mighty way. Now, I don't
know if God is going to choose me, but I am going to press towards that mark for the prize of
the High Calling in Christ Jesus. I am for from perfect, but that is where Jesus comes in and He
makes me perfect.

My point is... there will still be more Ages that will progress the Kingdom after the 1000 year reign
of Jesus and the overcomers (Rev. 20:6). The ultimate goal is to bring every rebellious enemy to
know their God. 1st Cor. 15:28 says,

28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son
Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected
all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Poppin said:

What are the two ages?
May we examine them?

Luke 18
29And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 10
29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

.....

is the age to come eternity (after Judgment)?
Poppin

Click to expand...

Yes you are exactly right - as usual. The Jews of ancient times differentiated their generation from the coming age or generation of the Messiah with the very common phrase "The World to Come." There were very few Jews that were excluded from this coming age of the Messiah, which would be ruled in righteousness by the messiah. Even those Jews convicted of capital crimes were given the chance to confess their crimes just before execution. If they did - they still had a place in the "World to come." There were only two ages seen by the sages back in the first century. The totally corrupt age that they lived in and the coming age of Messiah where righteousness would abound. The only people excluded from "the world to come" were those arch villains like the Sons of Korah, blasphemers, and false prophets (like Jesus - who was accused of these things).

Today, the Jews are still looking for that "World or age to come," which will begin when their “Messiah” comes riding up to the temple mount on a white donkey (Zechariah). The Mount of Olives has been used as a cemetery for over 3,000 years by the Jews, which is why it was never inhabited with homes and buildings. (The city of Jerusalem was not Built on the Mount of olives and its peaks cannot be used in the “Hill count.”). Today there are about 150,000 Jews buried on the MoO all feet first toward the temple. But they are running out of room and only have enough space for about another ten years. When Messiah arrives - then all of these Jews will be resurrected and will participate in that unending "World (or age) to come".)

We on the other hand have the advantage of hindsight - which they didn't have. We know today that their belief system was totally faulty. They thought that Messiah was going to destroy or subjugate Israels enemies and raise the Jews up to a level of preeminence, wealth and power. Never happened because God was in reality dealing with the sin problem and the refinement of character. Those entering this “world to come” or “age of Messiah” were entering by repentance and obedience and not by their genetic blood line. The Christian call was to “whosoever will.”

So if we were to choose a starting point for the age or world to come I guess we could use the triumphal entry of Jesus just before the crucifixion. Thats what the Jews believed. We are living in the spiritual kingdom of God now but Revelation shows that the LITERAL kingdom on earth will not occur until after the Second Coming. (Sorry no Millennium.) After the Second Coming there will no longer be an unbeliever in existence and God will openly show himself visibly to all of his people – forever.






[/QUOTE]

Shalom, Poppin.

Poppin said:

...

Retrobyter,

Ezekiel 43:25
You will offer a goat for a sin offering each day for seven days. A young bull and a ram from the flock, both unblemished, must also be offered.

2403b. chattath
chattath: sin, sin offering
Transliteration: chattath
Short Definition: offering
2398. chata
http://biblehub.com/bdb/2398.htm

...

Click to expand...

This is a ritual for the nation of Isra'el, and it would appear to be a one-time occurrence in this time period. However, whether it's a once-in-a-thousand-years occurrence or something that happens yearly, what's that to you? If God requires it, then it doesn't matter. It is something that GOD sanctions, regardless how you think it goes against your theological expectation, right?

However, I'm telling you that it's still a one-word to four-word-phrase translation between the two languages! I just counted the number of words in the verse you quoted above and got 29 words in English.

Would you care to guess how many words it is in Hebrew? It's only 14 words! It took over twice as many words in English to say (hopefully) the same thing! Here's the Hebrew transliterated:

Yechezq’eel 43:25
25 ShiV`at yaamiym ta`aseh s`iyr chaTaa’t layowm uwfar ben baaqaar v’ayil min hatso’n tmiymiym ya`asuw:
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

Here's how each word translates:

25 ShiV`at = 25 Seven
yaamiym = days
ta`aseh = you-(singular)-shall-make
s`iyr = a-goat
chaTaa’t = of-an-offense
layowm = to-(each)-day
uwfar = and-a-bull
ben = a-son
baaqaar = of-an-ox
v’ayil = and-strength/ram
min = from
hatso’n = the-flock
tmiymiym = spotless
ya`asuw: = shall-make:

Let's look at a few more study helps: Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary says,

OT:2403 chattaa'aah (khat-taw-aw'); or chattaa't (khat-tawt'); from OT:2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender:
KJV - punishment (of sin), purifying (-fication for sin), sin (-ner, offering).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Judaism.about.com at http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Do-Jews-Believe-In-Sin.htm says,

Missing the Mark
The Hebrew word for sin is "chet," which literally means "missing the mark." According to Jewish beliefs, a person sins when he or she goes astray. A sin could be actively doing something wrong, such as stealing, or it could be not doing something, such as walking by a person in need.
There are three kinds of sin in Judaism: sins against God, sins against another person, and sins against yourself. Sins against God could include making a promise you don't keep. Sins against another person could include things like saying hurtful things, physically harming someone or lying. Sins against yourself could be addiction or even depression. In other words, if despair prevents you from living fully or being the best person you can be, it could be considered a sin.

In the first paragraph, we have the same thing, right? We say there are "sins of commission" and "sins of omission." And, we may not teach the three kinds of sin, per se, but we believe that we should "love God with all our heart, with all our soul, and all our strength" and "love others" "as (we love) ourselves."

And, http://christianity.about.com/od/Tabernacle/fl/Tabernacle-Offerings.htm gives us,

The tabernacle offerings were a grisly reminder that sin has terrible consequences, and the only remedy for it is the shedding of blood.
God set up a system of animal sacrifice for the Israelites in the Old Testament. To impress upon them the seriousness of sin, he required that the person offering the sacrifice lay his hands upon the animal to symbolize that it stood for him. Also, the person making the sacrifice had to kill the animal, which was usually done by cutting its throat with a very sharp knife.
Only certain "clean" land animals were allowed for sacrifice: oxen or cattle; sheep; and goats. These animals had cloven or split hooves and chewed the cud. Doves or young pigeons were included for poor people who could not afford bigger animals.
God explained to Moses why blood had to be shed for sin:
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life. (Leviticus 17:11, NIV)
Besides being a certain type of animal, the sacrifice also had to be unblemished, only the best from the herds and flocks. Animals that were deformed or sick could not be sacrificed. In Chapters 1-7 in Leviticus, details are given for five types of offerings:
The Sin Offering was made for unintentional sins against God. The common people sacrificed a female animal, the leaders offered a male goat, and the high priest sacrificed a bull. Some of that meat could be eaten.
Burnt Offerings were made for sin, but the entire carcass was destroyed by fire. Blood from the male animal sacrifice was sprinkled on the brazen altar by the priests.
Peace Offerings were usually voluntary and were a kind of thanksgiving to the Lord. The male or female animal was eaten by the priests and worshiper, although sometimes the offering would consist of unleavened cakes, which were eaten by the priests except for a sacrificed portion.
Guilt or Trespass Offerings involved the repayment of money and a sacrificed ram for unintentional sins in fraudulent transactions (Leviticus 6:5-7).
Grain Offerings included fine flour and oil, or cooked, unleavened loaves. A part with frankincense was thrown on the altar's fire while the rest was eaten by the priests. These offerings were considered food offerings to the Lord, symbolizing gratitude and generosity.
Once each year, on the Day of Atonement, or Yom Kippur, the high priest entered the Holy of Holies, the most sacred chamber of the tabernacle tent, and sprinkled the blood of a bull and of a goat on the Ark of the Covenant. The high priest laid his hands on a second goat, the scapegoat, symbolically placing all the sins of the people on it. This goat was released into the wilderness, meaning the sins were taken away with it.
It's important to note that animal sacrifices for sin provided only temporary relief. The people had to keep repeating these sacrifices. A major part of the ritual required sprinkling blood on and around the altar and sometimes smearing it on the horns of the altar.

However, one must realize that the "sin offering" was basically for UNINTENTIONAL sins, while the BURNT OFFERINGS were the offerings made most for sin!

You've got to understand that the sacrificial system in the Tanakh (the OT) was more complicated than that! Of the 613 commandments in the Torah, over a hundred of them were about how to make sacrifices! Some of these commandments, yes, were about sacrifices for sin, but a good many of them were how to prepare the food for the cohaniym (the priests), haL'viym (the Levites), and the Tabernacle/Temple servants.

You've got to get rid of this dichotomistic viewpoint! It's not "sacrifice/no-sacrifice," but rather it's all about what were the REASONS for the sacrifices in question! Some of the sacrifices are still needed! They're just not those sacrifices for sin (except when God's Representative, the Messiah Yeshua`, is initially purging the Temple and the Altar after having rebuilt them)! We may not understand WHY Yechezq'eel (Ezekiel) predicts these sacrifices, but one does NOT "throw out the baby with the bath water!" If God says there must be sacrifices, then there will be sacrifices! END OF DISCUSSION!

It's like when someone says, "Oh, I believe Jonah was a fictional story." "Oh, really? Why is that?" "Because everyone knows that no whale has literally swallowed a man!" BUT, if the power of God was at work in the account of Yonah (Jonah), then He "prepared a fish" large enough to swallow a man, and it swallowed him! Just because that "someone" doesn't believe the account of Jonah was literal, does that make it not literal?! Who's GOD here?! The person who says "I don't believe," or the GOD they SHOULD believe?!

It's a dangerous business to twist one's understanding of the Scriptures to accommodate his or her theology!

Shabbat shalom, Poppin.

Poppin said:

hello retro
all the passages used to justify animal sacrifices for sin in a future millenium after Jesus Christ paid once for all time are....

... already fulfilled in history while the temple system was in operation they are not future passages
and it is nothing short of heresy to suggest God will approve the sacrifice of even a single animal ever again for sin.
honestly those Old Testament prophecies can be shown to be fulfilled.
I'm using my iPhone today so perhaps another day I'll post on the fulfillment of those passages continue to use to suggest that there will be sacrificed his in the Millennial kingdom

Poppin

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Hmmm.... What happened to "kindness among believers?" This is NOT "heresy," as you so nobly call it. I didn't SAY it was for YOUR sin. Look, we know that the Messiah Yeshua` paid for all; however, the Hebrews - both Jews and the ten-tribe remnant of Isra'el - will be "born in a day!" They will finally meet their Messiah - GOD'S Messiah - face to face when He returns and rescues them from their enemies. They will need an OBJECT LESSON to jog their memories regarding what they and their ancestors did to the Messiah! So, as these rituals are performed, HE will be telling them of what He did for them! At least, that is why I think these sacrifices will be made.

You may not like it, but the prophecies of Ezekiel have NEVER BEEN FULFILLED, YET! The Temple found described in Ezekiel is MUCH different than Herod's Temple! Therefore, to prove that God is not a liar, they WILL BE FULFILLED! LITERALLY! When God says something in His Word, you need to accept it, even if it goes against what you currently believe! Disagree with me all you want; that's fine. I'm only human. You could be just as right as I could be, and to be in agreement, one of us will have to change. But, when we disagree with God's Word, it's not God's Word that must change; it's WE who much change!

You either have to accept the Word of God, or you have to TWIST IT VIOLENTLY and MAKE it fit into your little system of theology! FORCE it into your mold! You may not like this prophecy to be in Ezekiel, but IT'S THERE! You can deny it all you want, but IT'S STILL THERE! What are you going to do about it? Ignore it? Explain it away by saying, "Oh, it didn't really mean that," or somehow say, "It's already been 'SPIRITUALLY' fulfilled" in some way? (How I HATE how that word, "spiritually," is abused!) That's what the early allegorists did! THEY started this "Oh, it's only an allegory," or "Oh, God didn't mean to say that" mess! This didn't happen until the early 4th century A.D, when they broke away from their Hebrew roots and started to view Christianity as a separate religion from original Judaism, forcing Jewish believers to recant their heritage and everything Jewish!

There's an excellent little book I would recommend you read. It's Restoring the Jewishness of the Gospel: A Message for Christians by David H. Stern, the same guy who translated the Complete Jewish Bible. Stern quotes the "Profession of Faith, from the Church of Constantinople: From Assemani, Cod. Lit., I, p. 105," as cited in James Parkes, The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue (NY: Atheneum, 1974), pp. 397-398)." It was written in the early 4th Century:

"I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations, and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce absolutely everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom. ... and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils."

Where's the love in all THAT nonsense?! Never mind the fact that "Good Friday" comes from the death of the Sacrificial Lamb of God (haKeves Elohiym), Yeshua`, on Pesach, the JEWISH Passover! Never mind the fact that one of those "purifications" in the mikvah (a place with "living" or running water) was the BASIS and FOUNDATION for the water baptism of Christianity! Never mind the fact that the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper was the last Pesach (Passover) Seder He had with His disciples! Never mind that the Resurrection of our Lord (often called "Easter" after the false god "Ishtar" because it was close to the pagan holiday of the spring equinox) occurred on the Feast of First Fruits (the first harvest of barley in Isra'el)! Never mind the fact that the day of Pentecost ("fiftieth"), in which the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) was given, was the same as the Festival of Shavu'owt ("Sevens"), which commemorates the giving of the Law on Mount Sinai and was calculated by "counting the omer" or counting each day for fifty days after Pesach, the first day after seven full weeks!

Do you feel, like others before you, that Messianic Jews have to "prove their Christianity" by eating a ham sandwich?! Do you agree with this confession that Messianic believers were FORCED to say if they wanted to "join the holy Community?!"

Be forewarned. For you to prove that all of the prophecies in Ezekiel were fulfilled in the past, you must prove EVERY prophecy was fulfilled. For me to prove that they weren't all fulfilled, all I have to do is find ONE!

Shalom, Poppin.

Poppin said:

Ezekiel's Temple was a vision. a picture.
it wasn't and will not be built.
Israel met her Messiah - some rejected Him.

For every prophecy i show you that ezekiel happened in the past, AND points to the eternal state (NOT a Millennium), you'll just drop everything into an interim 1,000 year period for "Israel".
but Israel already received all the promises.
There's ONE Covenant.
in Christ's blood.
salvation is by FAITH (before the Second Coming.
Animal sacrifices are heresy - particularly since they are said specifically to atone for SIN.
love Poppin

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You're repeating yourself more and more adamantly. Are we finished exploring WHETHER you are speaking the truth? If so, I guess it's time to move on. Salvation has NOTHING DIRECTLY TO DO WITH being justified by God. That's a common fallacy these days, but "salvation" refers to the RESCUE of God's people, particularly the Hebrew people, since the prophecies were to THEM.
There are TWO covenants currently in play, the New Covenant and the Davidic Covenant.
And, animal sacrifices are NOT heresy if YHWH requires them for whatever purposes He may have!
And, Isra'el has YET to receive all the promises God has given them, especially in the prophecies.

Poppin said:

Oh my.
Salvation has nothing to do with being justified?
We are justified (declared or reckoned righteous before God) in order to be saved from His wrath.
Because our SINS are forgiven, and the wrath of God is coming on the world due to to SIN - actually, it will be due to the rejection of His only plan for the removal of sin - Jesus Christ His Beloved.

Romans 5
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!


He fulfilled His promises to them. The entire Bible was written by Hebrews - the NT by Jewish Apostles.
They believed they had been rescued - from hell and wrath, and transferred to New Jerusalem.
And they believed being rescued was related to forgiveness of sins - JUSTIFICATION (aquittal; not guilty).

Colossians 1:13
13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 11
By Faith
1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

13These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

39And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

http://biblehub.com/esv/hebrews/11.htm - Chapter


The Davidic Covenant? I've posted many times that God KEPT His Promise to set one of David's descendants on his throne.
If you are looking for a carnal earthly reign on a cursed earth out of the rubble of Jerusalem, what is the difference between this and what the 1st century Pharisees believed (and were wrong about)?

John 18
35Pilate answered, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?" 36Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." 37Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."


Animal sacrifices are total heresy.
Israel received ALL the promises given to her. Nothing remains but the heavenly city.
All that remains is the eternal state.

God Bless - Poppin.

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I thought we were talking about Ages, but somehow we got side tracked by animal sacrifices. I
guess I will comment on animal sacrifices for the moment to clear up some things for the readers
of this thread. Ps. 51:16-17 says,

16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit ; A broken and a
contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

God has never been interested in animal sacrifices, but it was a tool to bring His people to a place
of understanding. David understood what God was looking for in the Spirit. He was looking for a
different sacrifice that pertained to the beast nature (animal) being eliminated in every created
being. It is our responsibility as priests to offer up sacrifices of praise and worship to the Lamb of
God. We are to build the walls of (New) Jerusalem, which is, being witnesses of the purpose and
plan that God has revealed by His holy prophets for the Ages to come. Ps. 51:18-19 says,

18 By Your favor do good to Zion ; Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering
and whole burnt offering ; Then young bulls will be offered on
Your altar.

God delights in righteous sacrifices, but what is a righteous sacrifice? It is when a person that loves
God begins to mature in the things of God. In other words, he/she begins to understand what God is
actually doing and they become disciples (discipline Christians) that put on the divine nature and the
Mind of Christ. Micah 6:7-8 says,

7 Does the LORD take delight in thousands of rams, In ten thousand
rivers of oil ? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, The
fruit of my body for the sin of my soul ?
8 He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD
require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly
with your God ?

There's what God is looking for in man. That means we become that living sacrifice when we allow God
to change us by the Holy Ghost and FIRE. Yes... we will still offer up animal sacrifices in the Ages to
come, but it will be spiritual sacrifices that come about when God works His Fire within us and changes
the way we do things. Roman 12:1-2 says,

1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present
your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is
your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the
renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is,
that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

God is looking for someone who is going to submit to Him. Do we really want to please God? Well... we
know what He requires now. We have much better sacrifices to offer up to God in this present Age and
also in the Ages to come. Why would we want to go back to the old way of offering sacrifices. Heb. 9:23
says,

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the
heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things
themselves with better sacrifices than these.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

In the context you seem to be speaking in, Age is a period of time in Gods Plans.
The great Apostle Paul refered to them as "administrations"; some call them "Dispensations".

The interesting thing to note is that when an Administration changes, so do the conditions or "rules"; which so confuse some Bible students.

Some od the confusion is caused by translators over time, and recourse to some original documents for study is a great help.

Some good academics have done the work for us; one such is the cooperation between Dr. David Ginsberg of Massorah fame; and Dr Bullinger of companion Bible fame.

An example is:



(a) Those that hear and see, this indicates that this writing is probably pre. Acts 28. However, we feel strongly that it is pre AD 70, as at no time is the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple mentioned. (The majority view of the dating of Revelation is one of the Christian persecution periods. Nero's persecution between AD 54 - 68. Vespasian's persecution between AD 69 -79. Domitian's persecution between AD 81- 96.) The whole emphasis is the Lord's return, and the Judgement of God on the nations, and the re-establishment of Israel to the original promises to Abraham and the Patriarchs. (The argument for a pre Acts 28/AD 70 writing is well covered by Mike Penny on page 312 and 313 of his book "Approaching the Bible", www.obt.org.uk).

The fact of the rejection of Jesus by Israel at Acts 28, means a later fulfilment. However, Christ came "at the end of the Ages," (Heb. 9:26, the C. of E. translators show "end of the world," again to suit their dogma. The Greek states "completion of the Ages" Interlinear, Strongs, Comp.) the length of which is too immense for our comprehension. So, whether 20 years as would have applied in the Acts period, if the Jews had accepted Christ, or 2000 years or more, these times are infinitesimally small, by comparison with, "Age times," as defined by the Almighty which can be millions of years, as we understand time. This also is a classic double fulfilment, or fill-full (completed,) of which there are many in Scripture. Because of the wrong translation of the Bible by the churches over hundreds of years (Roman, C of E, and others,) (Link Corruption of the Bible Text to suit their dogmas, care must be taken by the reader to determine the original meaning. A common example is "end of the world." Almost every case in the New Testament should read "end of the Age." An example is Matt. 12:32,"neither in this world, or in the world to come." This should read "neither in this Age, or in the Age to come." The implications as to meaning are enormous, as our Lord only ever talked about the Kingdom Age to Israel only! The current churches talk about and teach a world ending calamity! See also Rev. 14:1(c.)
In the context you seem to be speaking in, Age is a period of time in Gods Plans.
The great Apostle Paul refered to them as "administrations"; some call them "Dispensations".

The interesting thing to note is that when an Administration changes, so do the conditions or "rules"; which so confuse some Bible students.

Some od the confusion is caused by translators over time, and recourse to some original documents for study is a great help.

Some good academics have done the work for us; one such is the cooperation between Dr. David Ginsberg of Massorah fame; and Dr Bullinger of companion Bible fame.

An example is:



(a) Those that hear and see, this indicates that this writing is probably pre. Acts 28. However, we feel strongly that it is pre AD 70, as at no time is the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple mentioned. (The majority view of the dating of Revelation is one of the Christian persecution periods. Nero's persecution between AD 54 - 68. Vespasian's persecution between AD 69 -79. Domitian's persecution between AD 81- 96.) The whole emphasis is the Lord's return, and the Judgement of God on the nations, and the re-establishment of Israel to the original promises to Abraham and the Patriarchs. (The argument for a pre Acts 28/AD 70 writing is well covered by Mike Penny on page 312 and 313 of his book "Approaching the Bible", www.obt.org.uk).

The fact of the rejection of Jesus by Israel at Acts 28, means a later fulfilment. However, Christ came "at the end of the Ages," (Heb. 9:26, the C. of E. translators show "end of the world," again to suit their dogma. The Greek states "completion of the Ages" Interlinear, Strongs, Comp.) the length of which is too immense for our comprehension. So, whether 20 years as would have applied in the Acts period, if the Jews had accepted Christ, or 2000 years or more, these times are infinitesimally small, by comparison with, "Age times," as defined by the Almighty which can be millions of years, as we understand time. This also is a classic double fulfilment, or fill-full (completed,) of which there are many in Scripture. Because of the wrong translation of the Bible by the churches over hundreds of years (Roman, C of E, and others,) (Link Corruption of the Bible Text to suit their dogmas, care must be taken by the reader to determine the original meaning. A common example is "end of the world." Almost every case in the New Testament should read "end of the Age." An example is Matt. 12:32,"neither in this world, or in the world to come." This should read "neither in this Age, or in the Age to come." The implications as to meaning are enormous, as our Lord only ever talked about the Kingdom Age to Israel only! The current churches talk about and teach a world ending calamity! See also Rev. 14:1(c.)

Floyd... I agree with you 100%. If we would take the time to look things up, we could
find the TRUTH that would set us free from believing a lie.

The only thing that bothered me when God opened my eyes to a truth was I became
embarrassed about believing some lies that I had been taught all of my life. It took me
several years before I could openly tell someone about what God had revealed to me.

Thank God for His Mercy!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Hello Logabe:
I endorse your remarks with enthusiasm!
When discovered (a painfully long period for us) the freedom is wonderful!
Regards.
Floyd