Please HELP Dan. 2:45

Shalom, DaDad.

DaDad said:

To All,


INTRODUCTION

Daniel Chapter 2 outlines the sequence of world empires, which most would propose is as follows:

1. Head of Gold, -- Babylonian
2. Breast of Silver, -- Medo/Persian
3. Belly of Bronze, -- Grecian
4a Legs of Iron, -- Roman
4b Feet of Clay, -- Revived Roman

However, verse 45 provides the following text:

Dan. 2:45
the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold

... which appears to deliberately propose a 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE World Empire scenario.


I have argued that this appears to align with world history, in that today's FIFTH empire of Clay is "divided" between 3-superpowers:

Dan 2:41
And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom


... and that a residue Iron exists in virtually all governments in this empire of Clay, because when the Roman Empire collapsed, there was no conqueror to establish a NEW model. So the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, and regions simply retained the Roman Representative Republic model (Iron), and became independent governments (Clay), as evidenced by our own Pledge of Allegiance:

... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible ...


PROBLEM

Many people have insisted that the 1,2,3,4a/4b model is complete and that the 4,3,5,2,1 sequence does not alter that the world empires end at the Roman Empire. However, they leave it there, without any explanation for the significance of the 4,3,5,2,1.


NEED ASSISTANCE

I believe that GOD is the PERFECT Intelligent Designer, but I cannot come up with an alternate rationale for the 4,3,5,2,1.


PLEASE help identify why GOD added this sequence in the Perfection of HIS WORD:

Dan. 2:45
the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold




Thanks in advance,
DD




PS:
COROLLARY
I believe that GM uses an intelligent design in the firing order of their pre-LS series 8-cylinder engines: 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2. And I would expect that if GM is intelligent, that GOD is much more so.
Perhaps someone can explain how that expectation is either misguided, or misplaced.

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Have you considered something more simple, like the HARDNESS of the material dictating its order? He started with iron and bronze, fairly hard materials, then basic rock-like clay, which as a ball, can have significant hardness. Then, he ended with the malleable metals, silver and gold.

When one considers the single Hebrew word "v-hadeqet," translated as "and that it broke in pieces," simply meaning "and-it-crushed," then it could indeed be referring to how easily it could be "crushed."

Shalom, DaDad.


Have you considered something more simple, like the HARDNESS of the material dictating its order?

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Now you are thinking like God!

DaDad said:

Hi Purity,

I think that GOD already provided a "hardness" sequence 5,3,4,2,1 ALREADY as outlined per the above. What I'm asking for are your thoughts on resolving the 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE sequence.

Any help on the 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE sequence would be GREATLY appreciated.

With Best Regards,
DD

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Your sequencing is incorrect to begin with as you have no fifth beast in Dan 7 - your theology is based on sequences, rather than God's divine revelation. If you understood the feet phase was a continuation of the legs you would have understood not only Dan 7 but also the apocalypse.

I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this but I fear your heart is set on numerology and not actual fulfilment of a continuous historic prophecy. I could be wrong.


- 4 Empires

- The 4th Kingdom is Rome - legs, feet, toes

- This Roman power continues until Christ returns

God’s Kingdom is the 5th and final empire!

Shalom, DaDad.

DaDad said:

Hi Retrobyter,

Thanks for the response!

Apparently you propose the following heirarchy:

4. Very Hard -- Iron
3. Moderately Hard -- Bronze
5. Extremely Hard -- Clay
2. Fairly Soft -- Silver
1. Very Soft -- Gold


Using your concept GOD has already provided YOUR sequence:

5. Extremely Hard -- Clay
4. Very Hard -- Iron
3. Moderately Hard -- Bronze
2. Fairly Soft -- Silver
1. Very Soft -- Gold
5,4,3,2,1 -- ?!?

... so I'm confused how your proposal addresses the 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE sequence?!?


Toward a "hardness" concept, please consider the ceramic (Clay) technology available today:

HARVEST PRECISION COMPONENTS
A new approach to forming and sintering ceramic material, will create a high density, single-phase ceramic material, capable of 1,000 Angstrom-level precision machining, by non-contact (hence non-damaging) Electro Chemical Machining (ECM) processes. Resulting surgical tools will be more corrosion resistant than all metal, ceramic, carbide and diamond materials used today. Tools (i.e. ophthalmologic surgical knives) will be harder than polycrystalline diamond and within 15% of the theoretical hardness of diamond materials used today.



So I guess I'm still stuck with the obvious Intelligent Design that there are FIVE World Empires (4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE), of which the FIFTH is "divided" between 3-superpowers, unless you have any other ideas.

...
With Best Regards,
DD

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Are you meshuggah?! Which breaks which, iron or clay? And, I'm NOT talking about modern ceramics! Use what THEY used at the time the prophecy was written! Sheesh! Which will hold up better? An iron sword or a clay pot?

Y'know what? Don't bother to answer. I can see you've got your own agenda and can't be bothered with the details.

Purity said:

Your sequencing is incorrect to begin with as you have no fifth beast in Dan 7 - your theology is based on sequences, rather than God's divine revelation. If you understood the feet phase was a continuation of the legs you would have understood not only Dan 7 but also the apocalypse.

I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this but I fear your heart is set on numerology and not actual fulfilment of a continuous historic prophecy. I could be wrong.

- 4 Empires

- The 4th Kingdom is Rome - legs, feet, toes

- This Roman power continues until Christ returns

God’s Kingdom is the 5th and final empire!

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AMEN....Four oppressive Kingdoms. that's clear.
And Christ's is the 5th!

but:

There's nothing that says 'the Roman Power' continues until Christ returns.
Daniel 2 says He struck the image at it's feet ( IN THE DAYS OF THOSE KINGS - THE IRON ROMAN FEET) when He was victorious - at the First Advent; his sinless life; & resurrection to David's Throne - where He received all authority.

Where is the Roman Empire now? dust.
Where are the people of Israel who plotted with the Romans? dust.

The Catholic Church is not in scripture. neither is Constantine or the UN or Obama.
---

Here is what my friend DaDad overlooks - Hello DaDad! Love in Christ to you!

Daniel 2
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

DD does not acknowledge that the Image's body includes the members or extremities (arms; legs; thighs) in the kingdoms:

head of this image was of fine gold,
its chest and arms of silver,
its middle and thighs of bronze,
its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

head - gold
silver - chest AND arms (does this make 3 silver kingdoms? 1 chest, 2 arms - or one kingdom?)
bronze - belly AND thighs (does this make 3 bronze kingdoms? 1 belly and 2 thighs - or one kingdom?)
legs of iron, AND its feet a mixture of iron and clay (does this make 12 iron kingdoms - legs and feet (including toes)?

No, it's obvious that the kingdoms are simply represented on the great Image of Man - the body parts are included because it's the image of man. its has arms and legs (which have feet and toes).

There's no division time-wise, either.
These kingdoms followed and overlapped each other intensely.
History bears and proves every minute detail in Daniel.

example:

Though during the critical time (Daniel & his people from Babylonian to Roman oppression - their KING Jesus coming during that prophecy))...these passges are about the GREEK empire - its middle and thighs of bronze.

Daniel 8
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Daniel 8
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

DaDad said:

I think you've mistakenly assigned GOD's Word to me! I didn't write the sequence, -- GOD did:


Dan. 2:45
the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE.


So the question still is: What is the significance of the sequence in this passage of Scripture.

I've been told to ignore it, (ignore Scripture), but I have to OBEY it in SOME rational, reasonable fashion. But I only have one argument for the sequence which I'm told is incorrect. So now I'm asking for an alternate explanation for this sequence, so that I don't disobey GOD, or violate HIS Word.



With Best Regards,
DD

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But DD
It is your having made it a sequence with significance which makes it seem important to you:

Dan. 2:45
the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1, = FIVE.

Without your assigning a numerical (in chronology/time) significance to it, it's exactly what it reads out (exegesis) as - a simple literary device, recounting the elements as they are dust in the wind.

Dan. 2:45
the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold...5 elements.

But nowhere does Daniel say those 5 elements are 5 kingdoms.
He includes the iron with the clay in place and time (Pilate & Herod for short) as one kingdom.
In v 45 it's just a vision of all the kingdoms like chaff.

God Bless You!
Poppin.

hello DD
I do not say any Scripture should be ignored
simply trying to point out that the kingdom that have the legs of iron is the same Kingdom that had the feet of iron.
the interesting part is set the clay was mingled with the iron.
if you understood what was happening in first century Judea, there would be no issue.
the Herods were not true jews.
we were products of the Maccabees forced conversion of edomites.
the Herods and other apostate Jewish rulers mingled and intermarried with Romans to consolidate power.
anyways God bless you

Poppin said:

AMEN....Four oppressive Kingdoms. that's clear.
And Christ's is the 5th!

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Its pleasing when we agree

but:

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there's often a but though

There's nothing that says 'the Roman Power' continues until Christ returns.

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1. The iron (Rome) finds it way into the toes.
2. The territory previous dominated by Rome is now united Europe.
3. The Holy "Roman" Catholic Church still to this day is the dominant ecclesiastical body in Europe.

So, while you might consider the power of Rome as dust, we have today a remnant of Rome still very present in the earth.

Daniel 2 says He struck the image at it's feet ( IN THE DAYS OF THOSE KINGS - THE IRON ROMAN FEET) when He was victorious - at the First Advent; his sinless life; & resurrection to David's Throne - where He received all authority.

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Ah I see your mistake. Follow the prophetic Word and you shall see the whole picture - the hope of Israel is Christ's future work.

Christ "Which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and day, and break them to pieces"

Compare with the prophetic statements of 2 Sam. 22:43; Psa. 18:42 relating to the future work of Messiah.

Christ is yet to crush the Kingdoms of men. ALL FOUR KINGDOMS!

2 Sam 22:43 I (Christ) grind them as fine as the dust of the ground; I crush them and stomp on them like clay in the streets.
Psalm 18:42 I grind them as fine windblown dust; I beat them underfoot like clay in the streets.

Notice the Lord's citation of this passage in illustration of his own future work (Matt 21:43-44)?
Poppin - its impossible to have Dan 2's stone as his first advent else the Kingdom of God would be here and the King ruling from Zion!

The use of the word together is significant. It teaches that in "the latter days" (Dan 2:28) the Image must stand upon its feet. The dream, therefore, anticipated the latter-day development of a confederacy of the powers (Read Ezek 38. I wont go into who these nations are now needless to say the point being made is this is a future work of Christ and the saints.

The description of the dream says that the feet were smitten; and 'then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together'; thereby intimating that the breaking of the power of the ten kingdoms would precede that of the conjoint destruction of all the other parts. That when they are conquered, the dominion of the conqueror will be overturned by the revelation of power from above.

The Catholic Church is not in scripture. neither is Constantine or the UN or Obama.

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It's not there if you say so.

If you would like me to expound the numerous prophecies speaking to the grinding of the nations down before they can kiss the son - let me know.

Purity.

Note:

Poppin, you might like to consider the Revelation to better appreciate this future work of Christ and the saints.

Rev 5:10 "Kings and priests"

This is better rendered A kingdom of priests, and therefore identifies the song with the promise. That which was set before Israel as being possible of attainment, will be obtained by the Redeemed. See 1 Pet. 2:9. "We shall reign on the earth" The Greek is in the present tense: "They reign." The four living ones and the elders sing their song at the time when Christ will "prevail" over his enemies, and the world will acknowledge his power (Rev 2:13). The book will then be completely open, in that it will be fulfilled. From that point of time, they look back over the unfolded record of history and acknowledge that the triumph of the Millenium stems from the triumph οf Calvary, through the resurrection of the Lord. For the earthly rule of the Redeemed, also see Rev. 20:4-6.


If you misunderstood Dan 2, I can only imagine how many prophecies are still yet to be revealed through His Grace.

Later day fulfilment of Dan & Dan 7 looks like this:

Purity said:

1. The iron (Rome) finds it way into the toes.
2. The territory previous dominated by Rome is now united Europe.

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What do you mean "finds its way to the toes"?
The text neither says nor suggests any such thing.

It reads clearly and simply that the toes are of the Iron kingdom (just as the arms were of the silver).

Truly...if we just studied the history of about 10BC to 70AD we'd see the toes and clay.
United Europe? But you're leaving out Judea! and all the other area Rome controlled (northern Africa etc).
Please Google: Roman Empire.
There's no GAP proposed in scripture, and the kings of the iron and the people of clay are in the 1st century - not said anywhere to suddenly be roman catholics or political entities in the 20th/21st centruy

Purity said:

2. The territory previous dominated by Rome is now united Europe.
3. The Holy "Roman" Catholic Church still to this day is the dominant ecclesiastical body in Europe.

So, while you might consider the power of Rome as dust, we have today a remnant of Rome still very present in the earth.

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Could you explain how Daniel 2; 9; 10; 11 or 12 (or any other book including Revelation) makes the leap from Imperial Pagan Rome ruling the region including Judea - to hundred and thousands of years in the future and suddenly the Roman Pagan Beast is now the RCC?
Mystery Babylon the Great was Jerusalem.
thank you
Poppin.

Poppin said:

What do you menan "finds its way to the toes"?
The text neither says nor suggests any such thing.
It reads clearly and simply that the toes are of the Iron kingdom (just as the arms were of the silver).

Truly...if we just studied the history of about 10BC to &)AD we'd see the toes and clay.

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Dan 2:33

"His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay"

The deterioration of the metals continues, until, finally, there is the introduction of clay. Hence the image rested upon an unstable foundation, easily broken.

i.e The iron in the legs is present also in the feet.

Come down to Dan 2:35 Christ having returned now with his glorified saints to battle with the image as it stands victoriously over all the earth.

"And became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors"

The judgment of Armageddon is likened to the threshing of nations (Mic. 4:11-13; Joel 3:12-14). Armageddon, when considered in the light of its Hebrew derivatives denotes a heap of sheaves in a valley of judgment (see on Rev. 16:16 See also Psa. 1:4 on the destiny of the wicked).

Poppin.

1. Rome in legs and feet prior to Christs second coming!
2. Gogian host will be destroyed by Christ and the saints!
3. Gathering the Kings of rev 16:16 is representative of all the Kingdoms of Men from the Head of Gold to the Feet of Iron and clay.

Its impossible to believe Dan 2 has been completed.

"And the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them"

Following the destruction of the Gogian confederacy at Armageddon, the Catholic countries of Europe will re-group under "the beast" (Rev. 17:13), and will prepare to resist the demands and ultimatum of the king in Jerusalem (Psalm 2:10-12; Revelation 14:6-7). But without waiting for them to attack, he will invade their territories, and so "rebuke strong nations afar off (Micah 4:3). In this work of conquest, he will use Israel after the flesh officered by the saints, and so re-formed into "a new sharp threshing instrument" designed to thresh the nations (Isa. 30:27-28; 41:15-16).

Purity said:

Ah I see your mistake. Follow the prophetic Word and you shall see the whole picture - the hope of Israel is Christ's future work.

Christ "Which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and day, and break them to pieces"

Compare with the prophetic statements of 2 Sam. 22:43; Psa. 18:42 relating to the future work of Messiah.

Christ is yet to crush the Kingdoms of men. ALL FOUR KINGDOMS!

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If the hope of Israel is Christ's future work, you are not saved.
Who is Israel?

Christ "Which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and day, and break them to pieces"
Christ is yet to crush the Kingdoms of men. ALL FOUR KINGDOMS!

If that were true, Nebuchadnezzar would still be alive.
Daniel CLEARLY says ...AFTER YOU will arise another kingdom....then AFTER THAT....etc.

the mistake is is not believing Jesus fulfilled all He came to do.
Nothing remains but rescue from wrath and the entry of the sons of God into the eternal kingdom.
let's get on with the Great Commission for THIS is how our King conquers.

Purity said:

Dan 2:33

"His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay"

The deterioration of the metals continues, until, finally, there is the introduction of clay. Hence the image rested upon an unstable foundation, easily broken.

i.e The iron in the legs is present also in the feet.

Come down to Dan 2:35 Christ having returned now with his glorified saints to battle with the image as it stands victoriously over all the earth.

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Daniel 2
34"You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. 36"This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king.

"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

ACCOMPLISHED.

Poppin

In Dan 7:17,18

Has this taken place yet?

I wonder if the penny has dropped yet

Dan 2:35 cmp Dan 7:18

NOT ACCOMPLISHED YET!!!!!

Show me where the stone has become a mountain which has filled the whole earth?
Show me where the holy people of the Most High have received the kingdom (on earth!) and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever?

And YOU say its accomplished?

Let me tell you about the meaning of forever and ever.

"Even for ever and ever"

The Millennium, though an age complete in itself, will be divided into various epochs, even as was the Mosaic age (see Ezek. 46:17; Isa. 66:23). It will, in its completeness, comprise the age of the ages since creation,after which it shall merge into eternity.

Not there yet Poppin - much to take place for Dan 2 & 7 to be fulfilled.

Purity

Poppin said:

"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

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You think God has set up His kingdom on earth today? If this is it you can have it Poppin, she all yours!!!!

the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever

Compare this statement with that made by Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar in Dan 2:37. There he declared that the God of heaven had
given power to the King of Babylon; then he warned that the same God will transfer that power to another inferior kingdom;
now He predicts that He will extend His power to set up his own Kingdom on earth. His ability to do so is illustrated by
the remarkable fulfilment over the centuries of the Image prophecy. His determination to do so is proclaimed throughout
Scripture. See Dan. 4:3,43; 7:27; Mic.4:1-7; Obad. 21; Zech. 14:9; Luke 1:33 etc

And so many verses boy I haven't the time to quote tham all!

May God bless your understanding with light.

Purity

Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven (on earth) will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom (on earth) will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

"ALL RULERS WILL WORSHIP AND OBEY HIM"

Poppin said:

If the hope of Israel is Christ's future work, you are not saved.
Who is Israel?

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Rom 11:18,19,20

Be careful Poppin! - best you fear than become arrogant in your own mind. Rom 11:21

We wait for Rom 11:23 for this is the mind of God and who can question it.

let's get on with the Great Commission for THIS is how our King conquers.

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Not a King or priest yet!

Maybe one in training if it be His will.

Rev 1:5 is still to come...."The prince of the kings of the earth" - This proclaims his status as King of kings and Lord of lords to be manifested on earth at his coming (Rev. 17:14). He will then reign in company with the glorified elect (Rev. 5:9-10; 20:4).

Are you glorified Poppin? if so, we are all in a great deal of trouble...not that you are not worthy but the King of Kings is not in Jerusalem and Israel are still scattered sheep.

Nothing remains but rescue from wrath and the entry of the sons of God into the eternal kingdom.

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If you came to my home (as you are welcome) here in Melbourne, Australia I would share with you the subsequent events to Christs second coming, O the prophecies so many, and all the things he has prepared for the saints of the Most High.

Purity said:

Poppin

In Dan 7:17,18

Has this taken place yet?

I wonder if the penny has dropped yet

Dan 2:35 cmp Dan 7:18

NOT ACCOMPLISHED YET!!!!!

Show me where the stone has become a mountain which has filled the whole earth?
Show me where the holy people of the Most High have received the kingdom (on earth!) and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever?

And YOU say its accomplished?

Let me tell you about the meaning of forever and ever.

"Even for ever and ever"

The Millennium, though an age complete in itself, will be divided into various epochs, even as was the Mosaic age (see Ezek. 46:17; Isa. 66:23). It will, in its completeness, comprise the age of the ages since creation,after which it shall merge into eternity.

Not there yet Poppin - much to take place for Dan 2 & 7 to be fulfilled.

Purity

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Purity

- are you saved (redeemed/rescued) NOW (jew or gentile)?
- do you have eternal life NOW? (forever and ever? does Abraham? Peter?)

John 5:24
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

- is Jesus the King NOW?

John 19
So they took Jesus, 17and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called The Place of a Skull, which in Aramaic is called Golgotha. 18There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. 19Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” 20Many of the Jews read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, in Latin, and in Greek. 21So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but rather, ‘This man said, I am King of the Jews.’” 22Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.”

Daniel 7
12"As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. 13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

- were (are) the priests of our kingdom, the Jewish Apostles, ambassadors passing through this current world, proclaiming the Good News that GOD has issued full pardons for rebels and sinners (He gave His Son) - to whomsoever will:

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

2 Corinthians 5:20
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

- in preparation for this:
Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake, Zion, clothe yourself with strength! Put on your garments of splendor, Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.

Galatians 4:26
But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Hebrews 11:10
For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Hebrews 11:16
Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly...

Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,…


The Stone cut without hands that struck the toes...and became a great mountain filling all the earth was Christ AND His church.
consider: the church was cut out of the mountain Israel (remnant saved), and grew and the gospel has gone to all the earth.

The Stone the Builders rejected (this is stated repeatedly of the apostate Jewish establishment) , the same became the Cornerstone....of the Church:

Ephesians 2
19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

...which originally was considered by the Imperial Romans an odd sect of Judaism (thereby largely ignored, hiding as it were, in plain sight - until Nero).

Then as the Roman-Jewish wars approached (abomination of desolation, etc - Dan 9) , the Jewish Christian disciples heeded the warning to flee JUDEA and were saved from the Old Covenant curses wrath.

Year of the Four Emperors and Flavian Dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_emperors#Year_of_the_Four_Emperors_and_Flavian_Dynasty

Titus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus
Siege of Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus#Siege_of_Jerusalem

Daniel 7
12"As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

Though God's PROPHECY TO Daniel (70 weeks) ends with Jesus and Titus, the ceasars continued for a time. So what?
Were (Are) we expecting God to smash nations and regions literally, leaving nothing but craters?
That's crazy. He punished one kingdom after another - using the ONE before!
But people survived. God is a Good saving God.

The stone (church - of which Christ is the Head) became a great mountain and is filling the whole earth.
Like Constantine, or not (who gets a really bad rap), Christianity became legal and the rest is history. You could introduce the Catholic Church here - many do. But it's not in Scripture...so we'd be eisegeting it in, or surmising. I'm not defending RCC. Just saying it is not in the Bible per say. Not named or described.

...anyway God knows His church - all who receive(d) the faith, delivered once for all.

How many will be saved, and when Jesus will return to Judge, we do not know.
God Bless you
Poppin

Purity

1 are you saved (redeemed/rescued) NOW (jew or gentile)?
2 do you have eternal life NOW? (forever and ever? does Abraham? Peter?)

Click to expand...

This Post was not the honest response I was seeking from you

1. Your confidence is admirable but not in harmony with fear and trembling - you are being saved - in a probation.

Our offering to God is this: We are the sweet smell of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are being lost.

2. If you are an immortal being then I would concede yes, however I very much doubt you have in your possession eternal life - its by promise at this present time.

That faith and that knowledge come from the hope for life forever, which God promised to us before time began. Titus 1:2NET

When I get a moment I will deal with the reminder of your post but its time for bed.
Purity

p.s 2 Cor 2:15 please don't infer you are an Apostle - I don't think I could take that also

Purity said:

This Post was not the honest response I was seeking from you

1. Your confidence is admirable but not in harmony with fear and trembling - you are being saved - in a probation.
p.s 2 Cor 2:15 please don't infer you are an Apostle - I don't think I could take that also

Click to expand...

Jesus said (not me) those who have faith have eternal life - will not be judged.
I believe Him. Why is that dishonest

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I do not believe I am on probation. I believe this:

Romans 6
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

I do not deserve salvation, but it is God who justifies the ungodly.

Romans 4
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous
Original Word: δικαιόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dikaioó
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)
Short Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, justify
Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.
Cognate: 1344 dikaióō (from dikē, "right, judicial-approval") – properly, approved, especially in a legal, authoritative sense; to show what is right, i.e. conformed to a proper standard (i.e. "upright").

The believer is "made righteous/justified" (1344 /dikaióō) by the Lord, cleared of all charges (punishment) related to their sins. Moreover, they are justified (1344 /dikaióō, "made right, righteous") by God's grace each time they receive (obey) faith (4102 /pístis), i.e. "God's inwrought persuasion" (cf. the -oō ending which conveys "to bring to/out"). See 1343 (dikaiosynē).



No, I am not an apostle. I may have edited my post after you read it. haha.
I am a cessationist - no more prophets, no more apostles.
They were Gods co-laborers, and we are His field, or building.

The Ten Tribes of Israel were not geographically lost. They were spiritually lost. Any in the disapora had the gospel preached to them a long time ago. And every generation since has known.

If they are still scattered over the whole earth (LOST, waiting for a gathering to Israel or some secret special plan other than THE GOSPEL), what is it. What promises are unfulfilled.

If they were lost, Jesus failed because he never left the region:

Matthew 15
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

1 Peter 2
24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Jesus said (not me) those who have faith have eternal life - will not be judged.
I believe Him. Why is that dishonest

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I do not believe I am on probation. I believe this:

Click to expand...

Poppin, I am not interested in what you believe rather what the Word teaches.

How do I know you are not like Israel of old? God knows!

Probation:

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires, 6:13 and do not present your members to sin as instruments10 to be used for unrighteousness,11 but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead and your members to God as instruments12 to be used for righteousness.

Your confidence is presumptuous and dangerous!...it does not account for your sinfulness before God, or his testing of your faith - if you fail to see your probation then you fail in your faithfulness for how can He try you if you have life regardless of your faith?

Its noted you did not comment on point 2 being that "life" is by promise and how loosing that life can occur as it did for Israel in the wilderness.

Purity