Please HELP Dan. 2:45

DaDad said:

To All,

Who is that mocks? Are we not called to preach and defend Scripture?

Click to expand...

You mean defends numbers, right?

Shalom, DaDad.

DaDad said:

Hi Retrobyter,

Using your argument, are you suggesting that "common pottery" (CLAY) is stronger than BRONZE?

4. IRON
3. BRONZE
5. CLAY
2. SILVER
1. GOLD

With Best Regards,
DD

Click to expand...

No, I'm suggesting that these lists are not ordered lists! PERIOD! IF there is an "order" implied, it is from the ground up! ALL five of these materials are pulverized by the stone cut out of the cliff without hands. They are pulverized from the feet upward, and they all blow away like so much chaff in the wind! So the bottom three materials are atomized together; so what?! We aren't told how big the stone is nor are we told how fast it grows! It is said to hit the statue in the feet, but ... hey ... the feet are connected to the legs and the legs are connected to the thighs and trunk, right? And, verse 35 is definitely from the feet up.

DaDad: thanks your reply and comments.
I have always from early reading been struck by Daniel's comment to Neb. "thou art that head of Gold". As we know Neb. had to go through trauma prior to genuine conversion to "the true God".
Gold, being in men's eyes the most valued metal, has implications for the following on the way down the image in Dan.2.
One thought is that Gold (linked to Neb. who seem to be truly converted, is almost the ideal), whereas the rest reduced in value (truth), until the toes are reached (poss. the 10 nation confed. of Bible listing), which has that strange verse re. "the seed of men" 2:43, which some interpret as a further irruption of Nephilim!
As mentioned in earlier post, I have always held the opinion that "the stone" of v45 is Christ Jesus, who on His return will destroy the whole edifice; to the Salvation of the "remnant" Israel.
Regards.
Floyd.

DaDad said:

So far, everyone thinks GOD is ~stupid~. Did you have an opinion?

Click to expand...

I think you will find this type of claim would contravene the forum rules.

Purity

DD: I don't think all here think God is "std"; which I have to say is offensive!
Our God is a Great God; whose Wisdom and Love transcend any human concept!
Floyd.

Antichrist Revelation chapter 13:8





V.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall (a)worship him every one whose name is not written in the (b)book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.



(a) Here is reached probably the highest point on earth (as opposed to heaven) for the beast/Satan, who now has many of the earth's population openly worshipping him directly, and via. his false messiah and false prophet, some believing that he is the true God. It is quite possible that the charade of Satan is so convincing that the established religions will accept him as Messiah (in the case of the Jews,) the risen Christ (in the case of Christendom,) and the hidden Imam (in the case of Islam.) This especially so as the beast will "hate the whore," (Rev. 17:16) and appear to destroy her, which is clearly false righteousness for the effect of drawing their large groups together. The question arises, who is this entity described as "the beast?" Chapter 2 of Daniel describes the figure in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. When the legs are reached they are described as iron (V.33,) and from history are clearly military and religious Rome. The ending of the military phase of Rome started in the 4th century A.D. under Constantine. He and his very influential mother Helena, began the conversion of the empire into a military and religious body, for many reasons, including the main one, effective control of the empire and people. Constantine set up his own capital at Byzantium/Stambul (Istambul) which he re-named Constantinople. This alienated Rome, which by the 11th century A.D., split completely into the East and West of the original "Holy Roman Empire." Since then the two have established separate orthodoxies, i.e. Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Church, (two legs.) The feet of the dream (Dan. 2:41) and the toes (V.42) are the subject of our present study. Verse 1 describes it as having 7 heads and 10 horns (the horns are assumed to be the toes of the "image" Dan. 2:41.) Other references to it are in Dan. 7:7 "ten horns," and 7:20 "ten horns." In 7:20 and 7:24 another horn rises and subdues 3 of them, and becomes very powerful. It is that horn in its power base that "makes war with the saints," 7:21 and 7:25. In Rev. 13, the beast has 7 heads. In Dan. 7:20 the ten horns are on one head, implying that the 7 nations have become one power (Confederation,) under the most powerful horn 7:21. The identity of the little horn is the next concern. In Dan. 8:23 we are shown that he arrives out of the divided kingdom of Alexander the Great, (8:21-22,) which was divided between his four Generals at the death of Alexander. We also have many Scripture references to him. I.e; in Dan. 8:23 the correct Hebrew shows that "the transgressions," (against Israel) are to reach a peak, before "he," "shall stand up." This clearly points to the Tribulation imposed on the Jews by him (Satan) in the background, and almost certainly his full exposure ("standing up") will correspond with the breaking of "the covenant," (Dan. 9:27.) His highest representative on earth is commonly called "Antichrist." Through the Ages he has had various roles on earth i.e. (Isa. 14:4,) (Isa. 14:12,) (Isa. 14:25,) (Dan. 8:23,) (7:8) (Dan. 9:26,) (Dan. 11:36,) (Mic. 5:5,) (2 Thess. 2:3,) (2 Thess. 2:8,) (Rev. 13:1,) and (Rev. 13:18.) Some of the above apply to his future role as Antichrist.



In summary, the "little horn," Antichrist emerges from the 4th beast (Confederacy) as its leader. Initially magnanimous to Israel, there is a 3½ year period of peace for them. After the first 3½ years, he breaks the agreement with Israel and they enter persecution (Jer. 30:7,) known in prophecy as "Jacob's Trouble," for 3½ years. However, this is the stage of the dramatic re-entry of the Christ of Jehovah onto the world stage for the first time in Power (Dan. 2:34-35, 44 and 45,) (Isa.) (Zech.) (Ezk.) etc. (As opposed to His first Advent as the Son of Man, and the Sacrificial Lamb.) Simultaneously much is happening to the nations of the world, which is not of Satan, but the "wrath of God," (Rev. 16:1.)



There are some who claim that there is no such entity as "Antichrist," because the word is not used explicitly.

This is not so, and is intended to deceive and unsettle those people that want the Truth regarding the future, from the Word of God. 1John 2:18 refers to the Antichrist in both singular and plural, the singular to the person, as embodied in the above text, and the plural in the general attitude and conviction in people against the person and Salvation work of Christ. The references in 2Thess. 2:3-9, is specific to the person, and descriptive of his actions in the last 3½ years of time, prior to Christ's 2nd Advent!

Any who try to argue against these truths, are identifying themselves as "antichrist" in the plural!
Antichrist Revelation chapter 13:8





V.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall (a)worship him every one whose name is not written in the (b)book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.



(a) Here is reached probably the highest point on earth (as opposed to heaven) for the beast/Satan, who now has many of the earth's population openly worshipping him directly, and via. his false messiah and false prophet, some believing that he is the true God. It is quite possible that the charade of Satan is so convincing that the established religions will accept him as Messiah (in the case of the Jews,) the risen Christ (in the case of Christendom,) and the hidden Imam (in the case of Islam.) This especially so as the beast will "hate the whore," (Rev. 17:16) and appear to destroy her, which is clearly false righteousness for the effect of drawing their large groups together. The question arises, who is this entity described as "the beast?" Chapter 2 of Daniel describes the figure in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. When the legs are reached they are described as iron (V.33,) and from history are clearly military and religious Rome. The ending of the military phase of Rome started in the 4th century A.D. under Constantine. He and his very influential mother Helena, began the conversion of the empire into a military and religious body, for many reasons, including the main one, effective control of the empire and people. Constantine set up his own capital at Byzantium/Stambul (Istambul) which he re-named Constantinople. This alienated Rome, which by the 11th century A.D., split completely into the East and West of the original "Holy Roman Empire." Since then the two have established separate orthodoxies, i.e. Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Church, (two legs.) The feet of the dream (Dan. 2:41) and the toes (V.42) are the subject of our present study. Verse 1 describes it as having 7 heads and 10 horns (the horns are assumed to be the toes of the "image" Dan. 2:41.) Other references to it are in Dan. 7:7 "ten horns," and 7:20 "ten horns." In 7:20 and 7:24 another horn rises and subdues 3 of them, and becomes very powerful. It is that horn in its power base that "makes war with the saints," 7:21 and 7:25. In Rev. 13, the beast has 7 heads. In Dan. 7:20 the ten horns are on one head, implying that the 7 nations have become one power (Confederation,) under the most powerful horn 7:21. The identity of the little horn is the next concern. In Dan. 8:23 we are shown that he arrives out of the divided kingdom of Alexander the Great, (8:21-22,) which was divided between his four Generals at the death of Alexander. We also have many Scripture references to him. I.e; in Dan. 8:23 the correct Hebrew shows that "the transgressions," (against Israel) are to reach a peak, before "he," "shall stand up." This clearly points to the Tribulation imposed on the Jews by him (Satan) in the background, and almost certainly his full exposure ("standing up") will correspond with the breaking of "the covenant," (Dan. 9:27.) His highest representative on earth is commonly called "Antichrist." Through the Ages he has had various roles on earth i.e. (Isa. 14:4,) (Isa. 14:12,) (Isa. 14:25,) (Dan. 8:23,) (7:8) (Dan. 9:26,) (Dan. 11:36,) (Mic. 5:5,) (2 Thess. 2:3,) (2 Thess. 2:8,) (Rev. 13:1,) and (Rev. 13:18.) Some of the above apply to his future role as Antichrist.



In summary, the "little horn," Antichrist emerges from the 4th beast (Confederacy) as its leader. Initially magnanimous to Israel, there is a 3½ year period of peace for them. After the first 3½ years, he breaks the agreement with Israel and they enter persecution (Jer. 30:7,) known in prophecy as "Jacob's Trouble," for 3½ years. However, this is the stage of the dramatic re-entry of the Christ of Jehovah onto the world stage for the first time in Power (Dan. 2:34-35, 44 and 45,) (Isa.) (Zech.) (Ezk.) etc. (As opposed to His first Advent as the Son of Man, and the Sacrificial Lamb.) Simultaneously much is happening to the nations of the world, which is not of Satan, but the "wrath of God," (Rev. 16:1.)



There are some who claim that there is no such entity as "Antichrist," because the word is not used explicitly.

This is not so, and is intended to deceive and unsettle those people that want the Truth regarding the future, from the Word of God. 1John 2:18 refers to the Antichrist in both singular and plural, the singular to the person, as embodied in the above text, and the plural in the general attitude and conviction in people against the person and Salvation work of Christ. The references in 2Thess. 2:3-9, is specific to the person, and descriptive of his actions in the last 3½ years of time, prior to Christ's 2nd Advent!

Any who try to argue against these truths, are identifying themselves as "antichrist" in the plural!

Arn't you happy with your own?
Floyd.

Shalom, DaDad.

DaDad said:

Hi Retrobyter,

EXCELLENT. So when GM provides the firing sequence 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2 -- they're smart. When GOD provides the sequence Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE -- HE's stupid.
I guess the same can be said for a DESIGNER which provides information in different views and cross-sections. When a Draftsman does it he's smart. When GOD does it, HE's stupid.

Perhaps you're more like a former boss, who couldn't read a drawing. Please learn.


With Best Regards,
DD

Click to expand...

You're making mountains out of mole-hills. God did not provide "the sequence Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE." Those were Dani'el's words to King-of-kings N'vukhadnetsar (Nebuchadnezzar). God only gave Dani'el the dream and its interpretation. I have NEVER called God "stupid." YOU on the other hand... well, we won't go there.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I'll say no more.

DD: we await with bated breath for you to finally reveal your "secret" Knowledge!??
Floyd.

Prophecy and prophets.



This subject is another of the current mis-teachings, in the view of the writers! The context here is Biblical prophecy, as opposed to all other definitions, such as necromancy in its many forms, which also makes claim to such powers! More will be said on the latter at a later stage.



Prophecy in this paper is defined as Biblical prophecy, and the prophet as one speaking for Almighty God relative to His dealings with His people Israel and or people connected to them. This may involve immediate or future events.



The remarkable fact is that all, or at least the vast majority of Biblical prophecy relates to Israel, and there is ample evidence throughout Scripture to prove the point to those who will seriously study the Bible! The very first in Gen 3:14-19, relates to the response from God to the sin of Adam, and in v.15, the statement from God to Satan foreshadows the death of Christ on the Calvary cross! Satan had attempted to usurp God in his statement to Eve “Ye shall not surely die!” This attempt of Satan was not only a lie, not only an attempt at usurping the authority of God, but also was an attempt to set a precedent at that early stage of that new creation! It is also significant that Satan’s first attempt in the new creation was with a woman! The Apostle Paul wrote very clearly and lucidly on this subject in his letters, and made it clear that women should not have authority over men, or to teach them in the context of Scripture, (1Tim. 2:12), and showed that Satan will try to control men through women, (1Tim. 2:14). This lesson must be very carefully watched in the days that we are now living in, as many religious groups have women in controlling and powerful positions, many claiming to be able to prophecy on behalf of God, and also many are attached to male leaders who are attempting to make a name for themselves, instead of adhering in faith to God’s Word, with care and humility.



There are religious groups that claim the powers now, that almost certainly belong to the yet future events shown in Revelation! They go so far as to state that they know who the Antichrist is, and various current leaders have been named to suit their ideas, these include George W. Bush, and U.K. Prime Minister Tony Blair! They should know that their attempts at notoriety are doomed to failure, as Rev. 13 shows that the actual person will not be known until the time of the events depicted!



Almighty God takes a very serious view of false prophets, and when the events of Revelation have unfolded, and the Millennial Reign of Christ is established, a person who attempts to prophesy, will be put to death (Zech.13:3)!



As we approach the end time events depicted in Scripture, we have to expect more Satanic activity as that shown in Genesis. Men and women in the Pentecostal groups claim to speak for God, and it was noticeable by the writers that the larger percentage were female. However, many of these groups are led by males with male oversight. They say that the signs following that were shown in Acts, should be evident if a person is a true Christian. These people require obedience to their will and statement, and claim that all who oppose them are of Satan, and that only they are right! The fact is that the opposite is true, and more often than not they are the ones who are controlled by the great enemy of mankind and Almighty God, Satan!



This leaves the question as to how to know a True Bible based group.


To arrive at that point, always remembering that God knows all our true intentions, (our hearts), we must study for ourselves from a good Bible translation. If we can find a Bible believing group we should join it, for study and worship. The group organization should allow open discussion on the Bible, and any other subject related. It should allow any genuine question on the group’s teaching, principles, organization, activities etc.


The group, or leaders should never demand obedience beyond normal good behaviour or manners. If claims or demands are made which do not appear to chime with reason, commonsense or the Bible, they should be challenged in open forum. The will of the individual should never be "subjected" to a person or group, except in openly approved, Christian "norms and principles" which are common to the group, and posted and known prior to joining. In such a Christ focused atmosphere, growth of group and individual will flourish, and the Holy Spirit, the Comforter will be in the midst in Truth!



To summarize;

>Prophecy in Scripture is nearly always related to God’s intentions re. His people Israel.

>People who claim to speak for God Almighty in these times need to be handled very carefully.

>People who claim to have special powers such as was apparent in the early Acts, should be avoided, or if a person is able, they should be challenged!

>We have to remember that in the end time events as shown in Revelation, Satanic activity will increase!

>We should if at all possible be a member of a True Bible believing group.

DD: disruptions how?
Please feel free to request help from a Moderator; but prior to, or simultaniously, define the disruption please?
Floyd.

One question? does the order of the text read the same in Hebrew. The order in which the objects are not important. Now the first group we see is how the statue was built, which was according to Daniel's God given view. The issue is based on Jesus coming and putting all nations past and present under his feet. I do not critic you for your interest in learning the bible.
the question remains in mind , why do you want to know. Now it could be you are learning for a purpose. Your next step is translation in Hebrew.

One thing we know is all the nations mentioned by Daniel about 90% are past. Now is the time to watch Turkey. It is said Gog and Magog are on East and West of Turkey. Northern nations will join against Israel (future). Your friend am I.

Shabbat shalom, brodav9.

brodav9 said:

One question? does the order of the text read the same in Hebrew. The order in which the objects are not important. Now the first group we see is how the statue was built, which was according to Daniel's God given view. The issue is based on Jesus coming and putting all nations past and present under his feet. I do not critic you for your interest in learning the bible.
the question remains in mind , why do you want to know. Now it could be you are learning for a purpose. Your next step is translation in Hebrew.

One thing we know is all the nations mentioned by Daniel about 90% are past. Now is the time to watch Turkey. It is said Gog and Magog are on East and West of Turkey. Northern nations will join against Israel (future). Your friend am I.

Click to expand...

Not to say too much, but - yes, the order of the materials is the same in Hebrew as in the English of Daniel 2:45. HOWEVER, the order is also the same in Hebrew as in the English of Daniel 2:35 (which DaDad ignores).