What is the narrow gate?

name one verse added to the Bible by a Catholic Council and a nonJW, historical source to back it up

i have received teaching from persistent JWs, but they stopped coming when Church history was presented to them - they admitted that they really knew nothing about Catholic doctrines or councils.

after checking out several JW meeting, i determined that the religion basically instills fear into their members - they may be the original conspiracy theorists. they are more antiCatholic than Seventh Day Adventists (and that says a lot) and a perfect example of a 19th century cult. as with all Christian Churches and pseudo Christian churches after the Reformation, much of their identity is rooted in how far away they are from the Catholic Church. JWs win the gold medal

kjw47 said:

Mr Russell may have been a free mason in his youth, but he left all false religions behind and sought truth. Yes he made errors because the only translations available were filled with errors. Misleading Catholicism council errors. But he was the only human on earth to find bible chronology that he could say years in advance--- ;Peace will be taken from the earth in 1914. He was correct--he erred thinking it was Harmageddon coming.

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My paternal grandparents left Spain to avoid the coming conflict prior to 1914, as did my maternal grandfather. I wasn't old enough when my father's mother died to know what she believed (I don't remember her at all), but my father's father was an atheist and either a communist or anarchist, not a prophet. My mother's father was a catholic, not a prophet (just a simple coal miner with a simple faith.)
I've given you the gospel, the only way to know God, and even the first corrupt release of the New World Translation still had enough evidence within its pages to prove that Jesus is God, One with the Father and with the Holy Spirit. His desire for us to be One with Him as He is One with the Father, and that is only by the new birth. There is no other way.
Doesn't it seem strange to you that Mr. Russell, having turned his back on the mother of harlots, was buried with a headstone covered in Masonic symbols?

kjw47: to propose either are lying is perverse!
Paul was Christ's mouthpiece to the Jews after His execution; "as a chosen vessel" he took the truth to the Jews up to Acts 28:28; after that to the gentiles!
So; neither were lying!
You are in this hypothetical question following a popular cause of many who do not like Paul's teaching, and proposing enmity between him and Christ Jesus!
The following will help your understanding:

The Apostle Paul's Accusers (separate Study)
Apostle Paul (Separate Study)

Both are in : www.revelationsmessage.co.uk under Subjectindex.

Floyd.

Mr.Bride: joyfully agree with you.
Regard.
Floyd.

kjw47 said:

Jesus teaches---the one who sent him is the only true God--John 17:3-John 5:30)----- Paul teaches--only the Father is God 1 cor 8:6-----these two teachings are unaltered truth found in every translation in existence--- now either Jesus and Paul lied or the trinity translations contradict their truths.---who will you believe?

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You mention 1 Corinthians 8:5-6: 5. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6. yet for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
But these verses equate Jesus with God the Father, revealing God in two persons, One Eternal and invisible, One Eternal and manifest. The verse doesn't mention the Holy Spirit, but doesn't exclude Him or His equality with God.

1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
2. which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3. concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4. and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead,
5. through whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6. among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; Romans 1:1-6

1. For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh,
2. that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
3. in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Colossians 2:1-3

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 NKJ version

3. But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4. whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
5. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:3-6

Paul was never confused about who Christ is, and neither was Jesus.
You mention John 17:3 and John 5:30:

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." and
"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Neither of these verses deny Jesus' equality with His Father, they only state His subordination to Him and His will. On the contrary Jesus declared boldly and in the same gospel text: "I and My Father are one.'' John 10:30
Jesus didn't go about proclaiming Himself to be God for reasons stated in John 5:31 ("If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true,) which you conveniently omit , but He didn't deny His equality with God, nor refuse worship, and the Jews who hated Him clearly understood that He was presenting Himself as equal to God.

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.'' John 8:58

11. "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
12. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
13. "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14. "If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
15. "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,
17. "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:11-17

I am the Lord, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

4. "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5. "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. John 17:4-5 (See Isaiah 42:8)

I typically use the New King James version (which is by no means of Roman Catholic origin) because of the flow of the prose, but most modern (and non Catholic translations) agree with the quoted verses with one exception, (though the weaker versions of 1 Timothy 3:16 don't deny the equality of God in the manifestation of His person.) The NWT was written by amateurs who were filled with the spirit of Anti-Christ, so if you have non-Catholic versions of the scripture that weren't written by anti-christs feel free to use them to present your argument, but no one with His Spirit will receive your declarations as truth, while denying the Son (denying His equality is denying His nature as a son.)

The Russell / Rutherford "visible organization" here on earth deny the divinity of Christ ..... they try to say Christ is Michael the Archangel who has come in the flesh , whereas the bible says Jesus Christ is Jehovah God come in the flesh in human form as "The Son of God"

In order to keep the story alive they had to write their own translation of the bible and modify anything that mentions the divinity of Jesus .... all proper bibles say the Word was God .... John 1:1 ..... they change it to The word was "a" God .

The bible also confirms that Jesus Christ is the only savior sent to mankind

With that in mind I always point the JW's to Hosea 13:4 where Jehovah God says .... You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

If Jesus is Jehovah that presents no problems .... but the Russell/Rutherford organization refutes it .... so by default they cannot acknowledge Jesus as "a god" or as "a savior"

There are hundreds of similar scriptural dilemmas for the Russelites ..... but they keep knocking anyway.

This is precisely why such doctrine is called "strong" delusion. It ensnares and makes captive through its appeal to the carnal mind. Its bonds are "strong" and only the Spirit of the Living God, our Savior Jesus Christ can deliver such a one (or anyone for that matter.) So I urge Arnie and the other saints who read this forum to pray for kjw47's deliverance from destruction in the name of the only God and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, blessed forever. Amen.

kjw47 said:

The JW teachers believed Jesus' truth over error----John 17:1-6---- here while praying to his Father--Jesus teaches---the one who sent him is the only true God( John 5:30)--- verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)
Paul teaches the same truth-1 cor 8:6---only the Father is God.

trinity translations are filled with misleading errors to fit Catholicism council teachings--this is fact---- otherwise Gods word teaches 2 different Gods and we all know that isn't true---Jesus' words are true.
Your confusion on this matter comes from a lack of serious study of Gods word and history.

I searched many trinity religions--Mormons-JW,s before I came to the factful conclusion---- The only teachers on earth who actually teach Jesus' truths are the JW teachers.

Jehovah is the savior--he does it through Jesus ( acts 2:22)which makes him savior as well---Jesus cannot do a thing of his own, Gods word teaches.

Acts 2:22---Gods power goes through Jesus. without that power Jesus cannot do a thing of his own inititive.

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My hand cannot do anything of its own initiative either. The head directs it. However, they belong to the same body. The fact is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three members of the same species (for lack of a better term). All three are eternal and equal in nature and character. But they simply have differing roles. In fact, each one reflects a certain character of God. Jesus, in being submissive to the Father, reflects God's humility and meekness.

Eve's life came from Adam. The husband is the head, therefore of the wife. This is about the source of life of the body. Christ is the head of the church. Again, the church gets her life from the head, Jesus. The Father granted that the Son have life in Himself. Again, the head is the life source of the body.

As well, we are told that the husband and wife become one flesh in union. Explain that one. How could two also be one? How could two of one thing be also one of something else? O wait, ten geese can be one flock. Twenty buffalo can be one herd. Four bananas can be one bunch. Hydrogen and oxygen together can be water. Two of one thing becoming one of something else. This is a dynamic of all of creation, which is supposed to show us a thing or two about our God.
So, three persons cannot be participants in one Godhead? The three of them are co creators of the entire universe. Their relationship with each other is none of our business. If we are told to worship Jesus, who are we to refuse on the basis of His relationship with the Father? Why don't we quit arguing and just do as we are told? Go and read the invitation in Rev.3:20. If you refuse, then you qualify for the status of the lukewarm church. Whoever you think Jesus is, He wants to dwell within us and have relationship with us. How does that make you feel? It's working for me.

"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." Hebrews 1:2 (ESV) (the Son is the creator, hmm, sounds like God to me.)

"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power." Hebrews 1:3 (ESV) (the Son upholds the universe by the word of his power, hmm, sounds like God to me.)

For to which of the angels did God ever say, :You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? Hebrews 1:5 (ESV) (so the Son is a unique son, and not one of many, hmm, sounds like God's representative and accurate representation of all that he is.)

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." Hebrews 1:6 (ESV) (but God commanded through the law to worship no other god but Him, hmm, since God isn't confused the Father calls the Son His equal and calls the angels to worship Him.)

But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." Hebrews 1:8-9 (ESV) (So God who is the only righteous king has given the scepter of righteousness to His Son forever, hmm. sounds like the Father is calling His Son equal to Himself in authority and power for all eternity.)

I'm reasonably sure that "Hebrews" was written by someone who saw Jesus as equal to His Father, being One with Him (quite likely by the Apostle Paul or one of his companions as per comments at the end of the book.) I'm also absolutely sure that the book of Hebrews was written before the existence of the Roman Catholic Church. Was this just another desperate Trinitarian out to prove the divinity of Christ, or were the committee of fools who wrote the New World Translation, blinded by the ruler of this world that they were so anxious to serve?

kjw47

What do the unbelievers not believe about Jesus ??

Arnie Manitoba said:

kjw47

What do the unbelievers not believe about Jesus ??

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Good question. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. His death was the sacrifice for the sin of the world. His death drew God's wrath against sin onto Himself in our place. It allowed the forgiveness of sin to be the basis for the gift of everlasting life to those who humbly accept the offer. Life is a free gift. Unbelievers can have a variety of motives. They may not be interested in being reconciled to God. They may not believe there is a God. But those who are involved in religion who qualify as an unbeliever are usually caught up in the leaven of the law. The bottom line of their error is that they in practice reveal that they do not accept life as a free gift. Therefore they don't believe that Jesus accomplished what the bible says He accomplished. In regards to salvation, His true identity is not really the issue in my opinion. That is something that can be cleared up when we get to the age where all things will be made clear.
But the bible says that God gives grace to the humble (undeserved kindness). The proud are they who resist the offering and the work of Jesus done on our behalf, and are engaged in trying to earn life by their own effort. BTW, this is a reflection of the original sin of Lucifer, who desired to take on the status of God. It is a reflection by way of the fact that only God can produce life and righteousness. He is the source. The temptation that besets mankind is in coming alongside of Jesus and becoming His partner in the production of life and righteousness. There are many subtle ways that this temptation manifests in religion. The days of the Galatian offense are over. The enemy has disguised the message much more cleverly than what we see in their case.

Case in point. The J.W.'s are taught to work for their salvation, whether any of you or they admit it or not. Therefore it is a farce to call grace "undeserved kindness", since you are engaged in deserving what God is giving.

kjw47 said:

Many false reasonings have come from treacherous and desperate hearts reasoning falsely. Fact--- Gods chosen( Israelites) in the ot--along with Abraham, Noah, Job, etc--all served the true God--all served YHWH( Jehovah) a single being God. This God was taught to Jesus in the synagogues his first 30 years attending--he never denied that God--he surely would never enter a house of false worship to a false god. Fact--Jesus, apostles, Christians all murdered--truths died--Catholicism held councils because they didn't know truths--many errors came out of those councils which erred the translating later on.

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I am always left to wonder when I see arguments like this...If God can be thwarted by man so easily ("bad" translations n such), if He can be beaten so easily...why do you worship Him? Exactly how small must He be to be beaten by us so easily?