Why some dislike towards theologians/textual critics?

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snr5557

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I've noticed on threads that people seem to oppose textual critics/theologians and/or thinking deeply upon scripture. I want to ask why people think this way.

Definition of intellectual:

": of or relating to the ability to think in a logical way

: involving serious study and thought
of a person : smart and enjoying serious study and thought"

[EDIT]
I should have been more clear in my first post, and I apologize. This is completely my fault.

  1. I'm not saying that whether a person is or is not is important
  2. I'm not saying that being an intellectual/theologian/textual critic makes someone better than or more good than others

I just noticed that in some threads people would put quotations around the word theologians or textual critics, which read on my side as either mocking them or viewing them with dislike, which I didn't understand.

I'm sorry for any confusion I've caused :(
 

HammerStone

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Not sure I agree with this blanket statement.

While I have sympathy for those who run up against the fundamentalist strand that does often take some frustrating anti-intellectual stances, I think some measure of balance is required. There are a number of very smart people who say things that are very wrong about Scripture. There are also folks who are very smart that share brilliant insights.

However, our culture tends to place intellectualism a bit higher than other things. Any sort of disagreement seems to mean that the person disagreeing is anti-intellectual which is not the case. Like it or not, intellectual fundamentalism is on the rise and it's interesting to watch what gets subsumed under the alleged intellectual heading.

In addition, you have a foundational text that takes a rather not-pro-intellectual statement as well:
It is written in scripture: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will reject the intelligence of the intelligent. (1 Corinthians 1:19 CEB)

I used the CEB there because there really is no hiding behind what the Bible says on the subject. Christians will certainly vary in the level of their knowledge, but the Bible is pretty clear that knowledge doesn't make a better Christian, necessarily.
 

snr5557

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HammerStone said:
Not sure I agree with this blanket statement.

While I have sympathy for those who run up against the fundamentalist strand that does often take some frustrating anti-intellectual stances, I think some measure of balance is required. There are a number of very smart people who say things that are very wrong about Scripture. There are also folks who are very smart that share brilliant insights.

However, our culture tends to place intellectualism a bit higher than other things. Any sort of disagreement seems to mean that the person disagreeing is anti-intellectual which is not the case. Like it or not, intellectual fundamentalism is on the rise and it's interesting to watch what gets subsumed under the alleged intellectual heading.

In addition, you have a foundational text that takes a rather not-pro-intellectual statement as well:
It is written in scripture: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will reject the intelligence of the intelligent. (1 Corinthians 1:19 CEB)

I used the CEB there because there really is no hiding behind what the Bible says on the subject. Christians will certainly vary in the level of their knowledge, but the Bible is pretty clear that knowledge doesn't make a better Christian, necessarily.
I'm not saying that being an intellectual makes them a better Christian or not, knowledge on a subject does not automatically make a person more good or more bad.

It's just that I felt a "vibe" for lack of a better term, that some people viewed intellectuals as bad, which I just don't understand.

I just want people to know I'm not saying this to point fingers or be antagonistic, I'm just curious is all.
 

Quantrill

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snr5557 said:
I've noticed on threads that people seem to oppose textual critics/theologians and/or thinking deeply upon scripture. I want to ask why people think this way.

Definition of intellectual:

": of or relating to the ability to think in a logical way

: involving serious study and thought
of a person : smart and enjoying serious study and thought"
So, you see yourself as 'thinking deeply' upon Scritpure? By 'thinking deeply' don't you mean 'denying Scripture'? Thats the 'vibe' I get.

Quantrill
 

Mr.Bride

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There's that intellectual faith, and then there's that faith from the heart. The first you can have by hearing the Word, perceiving it in your mind, and accepting it upon those basis. The faith that Jusus was speaking of in John 5:24 comes from the born-again experience. He that hearth my Word and believeth on Him who sent me, has Everlasting Life...As a man thinketh in his heart, he's born again. And from there comes forth the thought, the soul, not from the mind, but the soul that tells you that it's right.~WMB

Paul had it in the head at first, until Jesus came to Him. Notice I said came to him. If God is going to shame the wise with the foolish you wouldn't want to seek intellectualism. It has it place but that's not what does it. It is more of a hindrance to your walk. You'll use your wisdom to try to 'figure' God out and our finite minds can never figure out an infinite mind. The Spirit is what we need. Revelation. Come to Him as a little child. Children don't know any better. They look to their parents for everything. Totally dependent. Blessings
 

DaDad

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snr5557 said:
I've noticed on threads that people seem to oppose textual critics/theologians and/or thinking deeply upon scripture. I want to ask why people think this way.

Definition of intellectual:

": of or relating to the ability to think in a logical way

: involving serious study and thought
of a person : smart and enjoying serious study and thought"
Hi snr5557,

I couldn't agree more. Now, this is not to say that Christianity is founded on "superstition" because GOD and HIS Word is exactly the opposite. It's PERFECT Intelligence. Unfortunately, there are many in the christian realm whose doctrines defy logic, but they hold onto them all the tighter.

I can think of 20 circumstances where Scripture and History hold one prospect, but christianity takes a different. A scholar provides an insight which he/she cannot explain, but another ignores it and coincidentally arrives to a conclusion which MATCHES THEIR DOCTRINE.


But to be fair, it seems no different than non-christians and their doctrines. Who would be more sympathetic to a silvery fish than the same individual who is "pro-choice"?


At the end of the day, it seems both emote.


With Best Regards,
DD
 

Arnie Manitoba

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snr5557 said:
I've noticed on threads that people seem to oppose textual critics/theologians and/or thinking deeply upon scripture. I want to ask why people think this way.

Definition of intellectual:

": of or relating to the ability to think in a logical way

: involving serious study and thought
of a person : smart and enjoying serious study and thought"
.
Could you be more specific ?
Hard to know what you mean by an "intellectual"
For a serious bible scholar I think it is excellent
But there also are many "intellectuals" who I would never agree with

For example .... a large local daily newspaper has a full time religious writer , she is very intelligent , she has many readers , she has several university degrees including a Masters Degree in Divinity

But she does not believe in God.
 

aspen

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not everyone is an intellectual. God judges the heart. unfortunately one the hallmarks of the uneducated is to think they are experts and deciders of who is REALLY a Christian and who is not. instead of agreeing to disagree, they speak in absolute language and exclude everyone outside their narrow view of the narrow thread. makes it difficult getting down to practicing sanctification
 

HammerStone

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Thanks to the OP for the helpful clarification. We're always walking a tightrope in these sorts of threads, so I do appreciate the willingness to rephrase the question a bit. I hope everyone will show snr the respect of debating the ideas rather than descending into unhelpful responses.

With that said...

aspen said:
not everyone is an intellectual. God judges the heart. unfortunately one the hallmarks of the uneducated is to think they are experts and deciders of who is REALLY a Christian and who is not. instead of agreeing to disagree, they speak in absolute language and exclude everyone outside their narrow view of the narrow thread. makes it difficult getting down to practicing sanctification
Definite agreement with the first part, as you shared elsewhere we are all at different stages in our faith and sanctification. This goes for those who are farther along as well as those who may be a bit behind. We are all being worked towards God's end.

I'm not sure that the Christian fundamentalist anti-science quadrant possess the monopoly on fundamentalism. I see it in a number of sectors from both the educated and uneducated. For instance, I am reminded of many star or athlete personalities who are excellent at their craft, but then feel it their duty to speak out on politics or science as a voice with influence. You see it with talking heads on the TV and internet all the time, with a PhD in one area surely meaning they're an expert in the next.

I think fundamentalism is a major problem for us moderns, postmoderns and post-postmoderns. As we've shifted towards and intensely more personalized life experience, it becomes increasingly difficult to get outside of one's ideological world. Thankfully, we have a God that sanctifies us and changes our hearts.
 

Wormwood

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I do think this can be a tricky subject that can be approached improperly from both sides. Someone's IQ or formal study does not make them a better or worse Christian. However, someone can use the gifts given to them to serve the Lord, and these things should not be despised. If someone has a beautiful voice, it is a wonderful thing if that gift is used in honor to God. We do not scorn those who practice with instruments or their voices to give glory to God, neither should we do that with those who passionately study the Scriptures for the sake of teaching others.

I do think the verses in 1 Cor. 1:19ff are interesting, but I am not sure that contextually they are teaching that searching the Scriptures and theology is ancillary to the faith. In my opinion, Paul is writing this to a church in Corinth who is dividing due to pride and cultural issues. Rhetoric and flowery speeches of wisdom were used by sophists in that day to gain a following and a living. The Corinthians were incorporating this mentality in the church which was fragmenting it. Groups were cloistering around their favorite speaker just as one would do around the rhetoricians of the day. I believe the Scriptures are rebuking this kind of mentality that uses the church as a means of personal achievement or exaltation. This is not what the church is about or the type of people God is seeking. All the leaders of the church, Paul says, are working together to build on foundation of Christ and God is one making things grow. God alone receives the glory.

Moreover, the message of the Church is a foolish message about a peasant dying on a Roman cross which somehow God has used to provide forgiveness to humanity and has validated this through the resurrection. It was a foolish message then, and it is still a foolish message today with regards to how the world operates and thinks. Yet for the Christian, there is immense wisdom in what God has done that should be drunk from deeply. Here is my point...

Christian theologians (I use the term "Christian" in the sense of orthodox teaching of the faith) do not shrink back from this notion of the cross of Christ, but embrace it. Nor are most of them using the Christian faith and their insights as a means of divisive self-promotion, but to edify and defend the Church. In Scripture we see those who passionately study the Scriptures as being applauded, the Psalms speak of loving God's word more than pure gold and meditating on it day and night, and Paul taught the Scriptures in wisdom and told Timothy to study to show himself approved (because our doctrine and lives have a direct impact on eternity according to Paul). I do not think that one who commits themselves to this type of invested search of the Scriptures as anything remotely close to what Paul is addressing amongst the Corinthians. Rather, this type of searching and study is conducive to Christian growth and maturity (Heb. 5:11-6:3).

The folly of the Pharisees and the "wise" of this world is not their intelligence or study of the Scriptures. Rather, it was that their study did not lead them to submit themselves to Christ. They were too proud and were unwilling to seek the grace and mercy of God in Jesus Christ. This was their error and what brought Christ's rebuke...NOT their passion and study of the Scriptures. So, its true that intellect and study of the Scriptures does not make one a Christian. But it is conversely true that neither does it make one a Pharisee or arrogant. It is a terrible and evil judgment to conclude as much toward those who love Jesus Christ and commit their lives to passionately studying his Word historically, contextually, and linguistically. I think those who pass such harsh blanket judgments are acting much more like the Pharisees than those they are denouncing.
 

Secondhand Lion

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How do I follow what Wormwood has just said....he pretty much hit the nail on the head pretty squarely. Let me just relate it from my life experience so that maybe some of the younger folks can avoid some of the same mistakes as those who came before them.

I spent much of my younger years trying to attain a great intellect. I felt my worth as a human being generated solely around my intelligence. I spent night and day reading, studying, memorizing any and all information I could get my hands on. I spent all hours of the night setting my heart to understanding everything. This did not only include the Bible but all areas of learning. I considered the Bible, at the time, to be a good book for learning life lessons from...but not much else. Many problems arose from seeking great intellect at all cost. I became very arrogant, thought I knew everything, would not listen to those around me who loved me, and started down what I think was the brink of insanity. (spooning with a dead dolphin on a beach is close anyway :mellow: )

The problem with intelligence is that it's limit can not be reached. One can not know anything for certain....nothing. Everything can be questioned. The next fact only begs the next question. There is no limit to knowledge. I only found out how ignorant I was. As knowledge increased...so did my understanding of how little I knew.

So I set my heart to gaining wisdom because wisdom trumps intelligence. Wisdom can cut learning to shreds. A couple of drops of wisdom can allow you to discuss all manner of intellectual subjects because it boils everything down to just a couple strands of knowledge and allows you to apply any knowledge over multiple subjects. You can see the governing dynamics of life with wisdom.

I am not perfect in my quest for becoming one with wisdom, but with His guidance, I have abandoned my quest for supreme intellect with the knowledge I will only gain a greater understanding of how stupid I am. Wisdom will never fail me.

In case you missed it...I will spell it out. Christ is wisdom. Proverbs 8
 

DaDad

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To All,

Respectfully, -- ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUS?!?

I opened the Topic "Dan. 2:45" in Eschatology, and you should see the non-answers I got. Everyone insisted that GOD didn't mean FIVE, HE ment FOUR, -- BUT HE SAID FIVE!!! And the one guy who DID propose a "solution" defied his own logic!

So when I saw this Topic which asks why Christians aren't INTELLIGENT?!? DUH, it's because THEY DO NOT THINK.


So until SOMEONE can answer what GOD's Intelligent Design purpose is for the sequence: IRON, BRONZE, CLAY, SILVER, GOLD = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, -- I'll have to agree that Christians are either blinded by their doctrines, or are un-intelligent. Take you pick, -- One or BOTH!


With Best Regards,
DD



PS My query may not be a representative sample of all Christians, but when I brought the same issue up to a PROPHECY TEACHER, who went around churches teaching the "Classical" interpretation, I was verbally slapped by their insistance that the Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 sequence WASN'T EVEN IN THE BIBLE.

And finally, if anyone has ANY DOUBTS as to the confidence in GOD, Scripture, and History, (of course -- less so with "christians") -- please read my previous comment in Post #6.
 

snr5557

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DaDad said:
To All,

Respectfully, -- ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUS?!?

I opened the Topic "Dan. 2:45" in Eschatology, and you should see the non-answers I got. Everyone insisted that GOD didn't mean FIVE, HE ment FOUR, -- BUT HE SAID FIVE!!! And the one guy who DID propose a "solution" defied his own logic!

So when I saw this Topic which asks why Christians aren't INTELLIGENT?!? DUH, it's because THEY DO NOT THINK.


So until SOMEONE can answer what GOD's Intelligent Design purpose is for the sequence: IRON, BRONZE, CLAY, SILVER, GOLD = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE, -- I'll have to agree that Christians are either blinded by their doctrines, or are un-intelligent. Take you pick, -- One or BOTH!


With Best Regards,
DD



PS My query may not be a representative sample of all Christians, but when I brought the same issue up to a PROPHECY TEACHER, who went around churches teaching the "Classical" interpretation, I was verbally slapped by their insistance that the Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 sequence WASN'T EVEN IN THE BIBLE.
This has almost nothing to do with the question I asked. You pretty much just brought in your angst from another thread to basically insult a large amount of people. I never said that Christians were not intelligent. I never said that people on this board were not intelligent. I was just asking why people were against intellectuals who were textual critics/theologians etc.
 

DaDad

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snr5557 said:
This has almost nothing to do with the question I asked. You pretty much just brought in your angst from another thread to basically insult a large amount of people. I never said that Christians were not intelligent. I never said that people on this board were not intelligent. I was just asking why people were against intellectuals who were textual critics/theologians etc.
Hi snr5557,

Pardon me. I thought many of the posters in this Fourm qualified as "textual critics/theologians".

Certainly I wouldn't argue your perspective for my studies, or for the studies of others in this Fourm, but if that wasn't your intent then I'll gladly beg out!


With Best Regards,
DD


:wacko:
 

snr5557

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DaDad said:
Hi snr5557,

Pardon me. I thought many of the posters in this Fourm qualified as "textual critics/theologians".

Certainly I wouldn't argue your perspective for my studies, or for the studies of others in this Fourm, but if that wasn't you intent then I'll gladly beg out!


With Best Regards,
DD


:wacko:
Some people disagreed with you. You got upset. You then went on this thread and attacked others. I have no perspective on your studies, since I hardly know you. I was not asking if anyone had a problem with a person's particular viewpoint on scripture, but why they had an issue with those who are theologians or textual critics. The majority of your post is debating a particular viewpoint, and if you want to discuss it that is perfectly fine, but that's not what this thread is for. The remainder of this thread was calling Christians unintelligent or being taught false doctrines, again, not what this thread is for. So, if you came on this thread to argue a particular view of scripture or to insult other Christians, then yes, you should "beg out".
 

DaDad

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snr5557 said:
Some people disagreed with you.
Hi snr5557,

I apparently misunderstood your intent, and backed out. Did you want to continue this "conversation"? If so, then I'd suggest that you get the facts before expressing an "opinion".

Hope this helps!
DD
 

snr5557

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DaDad said:
Hi snr5557,

I apparently misunderstood your intent, and backed out. Did you want to continue this "conversation"? If so, then I'd suggest that you get the facts before expressing an "opinion".

Hope this helps!
DD
So far you haven't said how I've gotten anything wrong, you were upset about how people disagreed with you and you brought that anger here. And, how does backing out include adding a response at the end? Backing out, at least how I view that phrase, means leaving the situation not continuing it.

Well this topic did get a little off track, but regardless, I liked to see the multiple viewpoints on this thread. I think I can see better where people are coming from, but I would still like to see how others view this topic.
 

DaDad

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snr5557 said:
So far you haven't said how I've gotten anything wrong
Hi snr5557,

Did you want your Topic to continue with me, or without me? I've tried twice now to leave the conversation, but you keep harping on.

So for the third time, leave me out of whatever "discussion" you're having.


Hope this helped,
DD
 

Risen Angel

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And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. (Exodus 4:10)

Intellect and eloquence of speech are not the requirement God is asking for. It is all good to study the scripture and allow it to lead us to the author. I think I heard it said somewhere that, "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." (1 Timothy 3:16) However, I have heard scripture used to justify some fairly ridiculous ideas by people that have spent time studying. Just because someone can read, write and think critically doesn't mean they have understanding.

God didn't send a scholar to free his people from slavery in Egypt. He sent a murderer who don't speak so well.

And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs. (Exodus 4:17)

Oh, by the way - here's a stick. Now go free my people.

The Lord did not see fit to arm his soldier with a stack of books, a university education, military training and an arsenal of nuclear weapons. He gave him a branch. I wonder how that particular decision might play out today. People around the world might begin to wonder about the sanity of such a thing. There's this popular saying in the modern world; I hear it all the time. 'You brought a knife to a gun fight!?' Well, God only gave Moses a piece of wood - to face an empire.

The power of the mind is nothing in comparison to the power of the spirit.

Is there is a reoccurring theme of mocking an intellectual spirit on this message board? Somewhat. I think it comes from the frustration of finding people writing without thought, subscribing to ideas that have no real basis in scripture; or, others teaching ungodly ideas while referencing scripture to support their reasoning. God gave us brilliant minds and that truly was a gift; yet, history dictates that we have used it for our own destruction.

War is a great example. Money is another. We have the technology to build endless skyscrapers, yet amongst these towers lay the destitute and homeless. We have the ability to incinerate an entire city, yet people die of starvation because we can't provide food. We can design touch screen devices and flood the market with cellular phones, but many people around the world don't have clean drinking water. What have the brilliant minds been truly considering?

Many years ago a preacher said it better than I ever will:

For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow." (Ecclesiastes 1:18)

You know, these days, a lot of the time I feel like I've got to get my own straw.
 

Wormwood

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I do think there is a difference between one's level of intelligence and laziness. The two are not the same. God used ineloquent people (although some could argue that Moses was well ahead of much of Israel since he grew up in a palace rather than as a slave, but this is beside the point) and common people. However, because God used ordinary fishermen does not excuse laziness or the expectation that God will give us all wisdom through osmosis and we have no responsibility to study and meditate on the Word (Im not saying anyone who has commented on this post is arguing that). God also used fairly brilliant people (Paul) and he made common people brilliant by his grace (Solomon).

In any event, we all have different gifts and different levels of faith. What matters is not what our gift is and our level of ability in that area, but whether or not we apply ourselves for the sake of the Lord and his church. I do not consider myself a "scholar" or a person of unusual intelligence. However, I have tried to use what little intelligence I have to invest it fully in the study of God's word and the work of past saints who were much more intelligent than I am. I think this is only proper for all God's people if we really believe God's word is of greater value than gold.