Corrupt leaders = Proof of free will

FHII · Mar 31, 2014

IBeMe...

I appreciate your post, but I'm not going to respond further on whether Lucifer or the King of Tyre was Satan. It's not the topic of this post. I only commented because I don't believe such things and thus, I think the scripture given in the OP doesn't even apply.

Overall, I believe God appoints corrupt leaders, knows they are corrupt and knows what they will do, and uses them for his purpose. So when God does this, I object to the notion that "God is evil" because he allowed corrupt leaders. I fully believe God knew what he was doing when he did it. What's going on is a "man" is trying to give God a way out of looking evil in the sight of men. Rediculous! God don't care what men think of him! There are a few occasions when he did.... But using the notion of free will to "let God off the hook" for doing things that imbicile men (I am speaking in general terms) think is wrong....

DAMN! WHAT GALL!!!

justaname · Apr 6, 2014

KingJ said:
Corrupt leaders = Proof of free will?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers (governing authorities). For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

That verse is pretty clear. Now, let's use some lateral thought.

- Would God ever ordain someone to a position of leadership if He didn't think he / she was fit for it?
- Would God ever give a leader power if He didn't trust them with it?

If your answer is YES to the above, you believe God is evil and makes mistakes. Fact is, God is good Psalm 136:1 and does not make mistakes (look at yourself in the mirror).

So, the classic question arises....'Why in the universe would God give Lucifer so much power and authority in heaven?' He had clearly gained God's trust more then any other angel.

Lucifer clearly had free will. The power to honour / respect or dishonour / shame God was in his hands.

Two blurry matters are now as clear as daylight.

1. Saying, corrupt leaders is God's doing, is on par with blaming God for the actions of the devil.
2. Saying God does not select leaders and give them power based on merit and trust, is to call God evil and dumb.

Conclusion: If you can figure out the reason for God not re-enlisting Lucy as His covering cherub, you will grasp that all leaders who God has trusted, have free will to shame Him.

Eze 12:14-17 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.

God is omniscient, thereby He knows all things past, present, and future. If you deny this then you have a lesser view than the traditional Christian God.
This being said God knew Lucifer was going to be found wicked, yet He made him the anointed cherub that covers anyways.

Your philosophy does not take this into account.

Please, keep in respect I do believe Lucifer had a freedom of choice and is culpable for his actions and decisions, yet your conclusion does not fully equate to your proposition. I do not believe God is evil or makes mistakes. God is good, God is omniscient, and God is sovereign.

KingJ · Apr 7, 2014

justaname said:
God is omniscient, thereby He knows all things past, present, and future. If you deny this then you have a lesser view than the traditional Christian God.
This being said God knew Lucifer was going to be found wicked, yet He made him the anointed cherub that covers anyways.

Your philosophy does not take this into account.

Hi there. It seems we agree on many subjects, but this is not one

.

I don't have a lessor view, I view it as a greater view. God in His greatness chooses to be truly impartial / limit His omniscience in His dealings with His free will creations. Any ''knowing'' would equate to Him being evil. How would it not?

If God knew the devil would be wicked,

1. Why make him? Knowing that this wickedness would result in his creation being punished for eternity. He made an evil being?
2. Why promote him? God is dumb?
3. Why promote him sepcifically? Knowing his influence on the other angels....that is on par with me sending you a hot blonde instead of a fat, baldhead to wreck your marriage.

Please, keep in respect I do believe Lucifer had a freedom of choice and is culpable for his actions and decisions, yet your conclusion does not fully equate to your proposition. I do not believe God is evil or makes mistakes.

In other words 'freedom to move around in the space given him'....which will inevitable lead to eternal punishment. How is that freedom? If that was God's idea of freedom, I would not be a Christian. If one-day we find out that that is God's idea of freedom, there will be a fall-out in heaven when we no longer look through a glass darkly.

God is good, God is omniscient, and God is sovereign.

Amen. Now how can God call Himself good if He made people and angels knowing exactly who would suffer in hell? A good and great God would leave the decision 100% in His creations hands.

God is also impartial and just. He is 100% omniscient whilst being 100% impartial. Hence, God is a being that can only give true free will. We know God places what ''we see'' as limiting factors on Himself. Proven by His death on the cross.

Hence it is not limiting factors....but rather a mistaken assumption from using our carnal mind to grasp God.

Omniscient + sovereign + creator = no true free will.
Omniscient + sovereign + creator + impartial + good + just = true free will.

justaname · Apr 7, 2014

KingJ said:
Hi there. It seems we agree on many subjects, but this is not one .

I don't have a lessor view, I view it as a greater view. God in His greatness chooses to be truly impartial / limit His omniscience in His dealings with His free will creations. Any ''knowing'' would equate to Him being evil. How would it not?

If God knew the devil would be wicked,

1. Why make him? Knowing that this wickedness would result in his creation being punished for eternity. He made an evil being?
2. Why promote him? God is dumb?
3. Why promote him sepcifically? Knowing his influence on the other angels....that is on par with me sending you a hot blonde instead of a fat, baldhead to wreck your marriage.

In other words 'freedom to move around in the space given him'....which will inevitable lead to eternal punishment. How is that freedom? If that was God's idea of freedom, I would not be a Christian. If one-day we find out that that is God's idea of freedom, there will be a fall-out in heaven when we no longer look through a glass darkly.

Amen. Now how can God call Himself good if He made people and angels knowing exactly who would suffer in hell? A good and great God would leave the decision 100% in His creations hands.

God is also impartial and just. He is 100% omniscient whilst being 100% impartial. Hence, God is a being that can only give true free will. We know God places what ''we see'' as limiting factors on Himself. Proven by His death on the cross.

Hence it is not limiting factors....but rather a mistaken assumption from using our carnal mind to grasp God.

Omniscient + sovereign + creator = no true free will.
Omniscient + sovereign + creator + impartial + good + just = true free will.

You are using human rational in an attempt to understand an all knowing, all powerful, ever present being. You have erred in your assumption that all knowing equates to being evil.

God is not to be mocked, and His plan is in full effect always, and it will not be thwarted. You have decided to take a lesser view of God to promote free-will as something God is subject to. Thereby God is no longer sovereign, free-will is.

That is similar to saying God is held to laws or powers outside Himself, which is false.

KingJ · Apr 8, 2014

justaname said:
That is similar to saying God is held to laws or powers outside Himself, which is false.

God does hold Himself to who 'He is'. If He can sacrifice Himself for us on a cross, He can limit His omniscience for us. He sacrificed Himself for us because He is the epitome of good and loving...He limits His omniscience for us because He is the epitome of good, fair / impartial and just.

There is simply no way to judge Him as good if He created someone knowing they would go to hell.

God is who He is. Who He is... is a being incapable of doing evil. He is incapable of giving anything less then true free will. He knew mankind would require sacrifices on His part.

The very reason we are created on earth is proof of that. John 3:16 is also crystal clear that the 'whomsoever' may accept. God is not a liar. Whomosever = whomsoever.

Floyd · Apr 8, 2014

Kingj:
God is who He is. Who He is... is a being incapable of doing evil. He is incapable of giving anything less then true free will. He knew mankind would require sacrifices on His part.

The very reason we are created on earth is proof of that. John 3:16 is also crystal clear that the 'whomsoever' may accept. God is not a liar. Whomosever = whomsoever.

Sums it all up!
Floyd.

justaname · Apr 11, 2014

KingJ said:
God does hold Himself to who 'He is'. If He can sacrifice Himself for us on a cross, He can limit His omniscience for us. He sacrificed Himself for us because He is the epitome of good and loving...He limits His omniscience for us because He is the epitome of good, fair / impartial and just.

There is simply no way to judge Him as good if He created someone knowing they would go to hell.

God is who He is. Who He is... is a being incapable of doing evil. He is incapable of giving anything less then true free will. He knew mankind would require sacrifices on His part.

The very reason we are created on earth is proof of that. John 3:16 is also crystal clear that the 'whomsoever' may accept. God is not a liar. Whomosever = whomsoever.

God is incapable of doing evil...I agree.

What you are attempting to convey is God's ability to know the future is limited. This is false, hence we have prophesy. He who knows the end from the beginning knows all.

Lets slow this down a bit...

Are you capable of judging God at all?
Are you willing to call God evil if you are incorrect in your assumptions you are presenting?

These questions aside...God knowing the outcome of any given individual does not make Him culpable for their actions. The interconnectedness of creation is unfathomable for human intelligence. Without the evil actions of the individuals who killed the Christ, there would be no propitiation for sin. The Christ was slain before the foundations of the world. It was God's plan and the slain Christ puts no blood on God's hands nor does it make Him evil.

Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Consider also this portion of scripture.

Romans 9:11-24

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

KingJ · Apr 14, 2014

justaname said:
Lets slow this down a bit...

1. Are you capable of judging God at all?
2. Are you willing to call God evil if you are incorrect in your assumptions you are presenting?

1. Don't we use our intellect to draw near to Christ in the first place? Judge our sin? Judge our need for a good God. Love = Him dying for us. Neutral = Him not dying for us. Evil = those in Abrahams bosom going to Hades.

2. I am not the one presenting assumptions though. When asked who God is, God said He is. I am taking scripture to define God. God is not a liar. God says in His word that He is good. I know He is good because His word and the many examples of Him justifying His wrath on us tell us that He is impartial, He is longsuffering, He is patient. Heck we see it with the toleration He has for all the evil around us right now. When you say omniscience + creator = impartial / no free will that is an assumption off half the facts. As I said above you need to add impartial + just.

If God did not want us to judge Him, He would not have given us IQ > 10. Think about it. God is not wearing a T-shirt that says He is good. God says He is good whilst knowing the Hebrew / Greek meaning of the word. There is no mystery '''good on Tuesdays and evil on Wednesdays'' heavenly meaning for the word.

These questions aside...God knowing the outcome of any given individual does not make Him culpable for their actions. The interconnectedness of creation is unfathomable for human intelligence.

Of course it does. If God made a vessel from a lump of dishonour...for dishonour...for hell....that is not His fault? There is not a single explanation you can think of where a sane person will not judge God as evil. That is the bottom line.

If you regard God's view of free will as unfathomable for us, then you are implying God is deceitful. This is not a matter on par with 'how He was created'. People being punished for eternity in hell is a very material matter that every human and angel will surely judge Him on. Think about it. How can He say He is good and not have all His bases covered on this, a most material issue.

Without the evil actions of the individuals who killed the Christ, there would be no propitiation for sin. The Christ was slain before the foundations of the world. It was God's plan and the slain Christ puts no blood on God's hands nor does it make Him evil.

God uses what is available. This is like the 'God hardened Pharaoh's heart' debate. God never hardened his heart as a baby. He hardened it as an adult after he showed his unwillingness to do as God asked. Hence on par with being handed over to a reprobate mind.

God knows the ''people'' will sin. God knows the future of someone who remains on the path they are on. God knows that the righteous / God fearing are always a handful. He had to look at the earth and search for an Abraham. He still wasn't convinced and put him through a test.

Everyone OT that had a heart after His went to Abrahams bosom. God knew all mankind would need a Saviour. But He never knew who would have a heart after His.

Rom 9 just says God can do as he wishes. Who are we to question / oppose Him. I agree. But that He then does proceed to do / be evil is an assumption that swims against the current of all scripture. God who can do anything, in His mercy and love for us He chooses to be good. Hence His word says He is good.

kjw47 · Apr 14, 2014

KingJ said:
Corrupt leaders = Proof of free will?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers (governing authorities). For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

That verse is pretty clear. Now, let's use some lateral thought.

- Would God ever ordain someone to a position of leadership if He didn't think he / she was fit for it?
- Would God ever give a leader power if He didn't trust them with it?

If your answer is YES to the above, you believe God is evil and makes mistakes. Fact is, God is good Psalm 136:1 and does not make mistakes (look at yourself in the mirror).

So, the classic question arises....'Why in the universe would God give Lucifer so much power and authority in heaven?' He had clearly gained God's trust more then any other angel.

Lucifer clearly had free will. The power to honour / respect or dishonour / shame God was in his hands.

Two blurry matters are now as clear as daylight.

1. Saying, corrupt leaders is God's doing, is on par with blaming God for the actions of the devil.
2. Saying God does not select leaders and give them power based on merit and trust, is to call God evil and dumb.

Conclusion: If you can figure out the reason for God not re-enlisting Lucy as His covering cherub, you will grasp that all leaders who God has trusted, have free will to shame Him.

Eze 12:14-17 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.

There has not been a single govt on the face of the earth besides the Israelite govt back in the ot who did Gods will. But yes God allows Govts of men because men asked to govern themselves. And there would be anarchy without them.
Gods word teaches to not break the laws( if not contradicting God) so they have 0 reason to imprision one---Jesus taught to pay ones taxes.( caesers things to caeser) ---When satan offered to Jesus every kingdom( govt,armies,supporters) to Jesus--is because he controls all of them--even now--Patriotism will get one this-rev 16)( this is their( govts) reality-2 Peter 2:19)

justaname · Apr 14, 2014

KingJ said:
1. Don't we use our intellect to draw near to Christ in the first place? Judge our sin? Judge our need for a good God. Love = Him dying for us. Neutral = Him not dying for us. Evil = those in Abrahams bosom going to Hades.

2. I am not the one presenting assumptions though. When asked who God is, God said He is. I am taking scripture to define God. God is not a liar. God says in His word that He is good. I know He is good because His word and the many examples of Him justifying His wrath on us tell us that He is impartial, He is longsuffering, He is patient. Heck we see it with the toleration He has for all the evil around us right now. When you say omniscience + creator = impartial / no free will that is an assumption off half the facts. As I said above you need to add impartial + just.

If God did not want us to judge Him, He would not have given us IQ > 10. Think about it. God is not wearing a T-shirt that says He is good. God says He is good whilst knowing the Hebrew / Greek meaning of the word. There is no mystery '''good on Tuesdays and evil on Wednesdays'' heavenly meaning for the word.

Of course it does. If God made a vessel from a lump of dishonour...for dishonour...for hell....that is not His fault? There is not a single explanation you can think of where a sane person will not judge God as evil. That is the bottom line.

If you regard God's view of free will as unfathomable for us, then you are implying God is deceitful. This is not a matter on par with 'how He was created'. People being punished for eternity in hell is a very material matter that every human and angel will surely judge Him on. Think about it. How can He say He is good and not have all His bases covered on this, a most material issue.

God uses what is available. This is like the 'God hardened Pharaoh's heart' debate. God never hardened his heart as a baby. He hardened it as an adult after he showed his unwillingness to do as God asked. Hence on par with being handed over to a reprobate mind.

God knows the ''people'' will sin. God knows the future of someone who remains on the path they are on. God knows that the righteous / God fearing are always a handful. He had to look at the earth and search for an Abraham. He still wasn't convinced and put him through a test.

Everyone OT that had a heart after His went to Abrahams bosom. God knew all mankind would need a Saviour. But He never knew who would have a heart after His.

Rom 9 just says God can do as he wishes. Who are we to question / oppose Him. I agree. But that He then does proceed to do / be evil is an assumption that swims against the current of all scripture. God who can do anything, in His mercy and love for us He chooses to be good. Hence His word says He is good.

1Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

These two verses remove the crux of your argument. God knew Adam would sin. God had the Christ slain before the foundations of the world, yet he made Adam anyways. The same can be said of everyone else following Adam and even of Lucifer. This does not make God evil, it makes Him merciful. Jesus is not an afterthought of Adam's sin, He is eternal.

Your lump argument is the same as verse 19 in the scripture...Perhaps you need to read Job...

Your desire to judge God is reckless and borders on rebellion. Your reasoning of intelligence is no reason at all and is invalid. Lean not on your own understanding.

Again you and I agree the God is good, in such He can only do that which is accordance with His nature. (We agree here too) I also state He is omniscient. (This you deny) He is also just as well as merciful.

The Pharaoh argument is also made invalid in the Romans 9 passage...

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Floyd · Apr 15, 2014

kjw47 said:
There has not been a single govt on the face of the earth besides the Israelite govt back in the ot who did Gods will. But yes God allows Govts of men because men asked to govern themselves. And there would be anarchy without them.
Gods word teaches to not break the laws( if not contradicting God) so they have 0 reason to imprision one---Jesus taught to pay ones taxes.( caesers things to caeser) ---When satan offered to Jesus every kingdom( govt,armies,supporters) to Jesus--is because he controls all of them--even now--Patriotism will get one this-rev 16)( this is their( govts) reality-2 Peter 2:19)

The Gmt. of Israel did not do God's Will; except for short periods!
The Jew, the Gentile, and Christ:
Floyd.

KingJ · Apr 15, 2014

justaname said:
1Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

These two verses remove the crux of your argument. God knew Adam would sin. God had the Christ slain before the foundations of the world, yet he made Adam anyways. The same can be said of everyone else following Adam and even of Lucifer. This does not make God evil, it makes Him merciful. Jesus is not an afterthought of Adam's sin, He is eternal.

God need only use lower grade math to deduce Adam / mankind made in flesh + satan + pretty Eve = fall. To accuse Him of making Adam from a lump of dishonour is ridiculous. They are two separate issues. Look at David. A man after God's heart, yet a sinner! Worthy of Abraham's bosom but not Heaven or Hades.

Your lump argument is the same as verse 19 in the scripture...Perhaps you need to read Job...
Your desire to judge God is reckless and borders on rebellion. Your reasoning of intelligence is no reason at all and is invalid. Lean not on your own understanding.

I mean this in the nicest way, how in the universe can you serve a God that YOU do not judge as good? You would serve God if He did evil whilst 'expecting us to believe He is good'? Would you wilfully serve the devil if he was in charge? I know that is a simple / childish question, but it is 100% valid.

Again you and I agree the God is good, in such He can only do that which is accordance with His nature. (We agree here too) I also state He is omniscient. (This you deny) He is also just as well as merciful.

If only we agreed on the fact that brains = accountable for sin (kids and handicapped exempt) = discern evil = discern the most material matter of our time, eternal hell... where WE are punished. Scripture saying that we are punished for eternity + scripture saying the whomsoever will = good God. If the latter is amended to ''whomsoever God wills' then the first part needs to be amended. You cannot moan at me for using my brains to discern this matter. Only brains > 10 IQ are needed. God gave us way more...because He is an open book...because He has nothing to hide...because He is truly good.

Not sure how you can think a God who punishes those in hell for eternity had anything to do with their hearts decision. If we can understand the need to rehabilitate certain people who from birth were influenced for the worst ...how much more God?

This discussion is about to become dejavu

....if you believe that God predestines, then you have to believe some babies will be in hell...being punished. See I believe Calvinism falls on its head 100% by the verse from Jesus mentioning 'eternal punishment'. The fact that those in hell are punished, destroys all sanity for Calvinism.

The Pharaoh argument is also made invalid in the Romans 9 passage...

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

You are not seeing the context or fuller picture here. God does not hate Esau. God did not choose Esau and descendants. This is on par with saying 'God loved Abraham and hated all mankind'. God hates no person. God loves us all...even forgave those crucifying Him John 3:16. God hates sin Luke 22:44. Hence God died for all mankind John 3:16.

You can be forgiven for believing as you do because of the scripture in Rom 9. But you must try see the damage your belief does to the unsaved. There is simply no way for partial to eqaul good. Or punishment = our destiny = fair God.

I would not serve that God. I do not know that God. I will jump out of heaven if you are right ^_^.

FHII · Apr 15, 2014

KingJ said:
I would not serve that God. I do not know that God. I will jump out of heaven if you are right ^_^.

Really???? I wonder why people curse themselves by saying this. SMH.....

kjw47 · Apr 15, 2014

Floyd said:
The Gmt. of Israel did not do God's Will; except for short periods!
The Jew, the Gentile, and Christ:
Floyd.

You are right--- a limited time one single govt that ever existed--did Gods will and had Gods favor--which proves all throughout history--99% mislead.

justaname · Apr 15, 2014

KingJ said:
God need only use lower grade math to deduce Adam / mankind made in flesh + satan + pretty Eve = fall. To accuse Him of making Adam from a lump of dishonour is ridiculous. They are two separate issues. Look at David. A man after God's heart, yet a sinner! Worthy of Abraham's bosom but not Heaven or Hades.

I mean this in the nicest way, how in the universe can you serve a God that YOU do not judge as good? You would serve God if He did evil whilst 'expecting us to believe He is good'? Would you wilfully serve the devil if he was in charge? I know that is a simple / childish question, but it is 100% valid.

If only we agreed on the fact that brains = accountable for sin (kids and handicapped exempt) = discern evil = discern the most material matter of our time, eternal hell... where WE are punished. Scripture saying that we are punished for eternity + scripture saying the whomsoever will = good God. If the latter is amended to ''whomsoever God wills' then the first part needs to be amended. You cannot moan at me for using my brains to discern this matter. Only brains > 10 IQ are needed. God gave us way more...because He is an open book...because He has nothing to hide...because He is truly good.

Not sure how you can think a God who punishes those in hell for eternity had anything to do with their hearts decision. If we can understand the need to rehabilitate certain people who from birth were influenced for the worst ...how much more God?

This discussion is about to become dejavu ....if you believe that God predestines, then you have to believe some babies will be in hell...being punished. See I believe Calvinism falls on its head 100% by the verse from Jesus mentioning 'eternal punishment'. The fact that those in hell are punished, destroys all sanity for Calvinism.

You are not seeing the context or fuller picture here. God does not hate Esau. God did not choose Esau and descendants. This is on par with saying 'God loved Abraham and hated all mankind'. God hates no person. God loves us all...even forgave those crucifying Him John 3:16. God hates sin Luke 22:44. Hence God died for all mankind John 3:16.

You can be forgiven for believing as you do because of the scripture in Rom 9. But you must try see the damage your belief does to the unsaved. There is simply no way for partial to eqaul good. Or punishment = our destiny = fair God.

I would not serve that God. I do not know that God. I will jump out of heaven if you are right ^_^.

Okay, lets head this off here. This is not a discussion on Calvinism or predestination.

My entire premise is that God knows who is going to heaven and who is not. (He is omniscient) This knowledge in no way makes God evil. Those who do not accept the Savior are accountable for their own actions and decisions.

I am not saying Adam is a lump of dishonor...

You say "lower grade math" yet God allowed Satan in the garden anyways... your premise does not fit here, according to you God knowing the outcome would make Him evil. (you can't just switch your premise to fit the situation)

God had Christ slain before the foundations of the world because He knew Adam would sin, yet God made Adam anyways. I need to be clear here, I am not saying Adam is in hell.

I serve God not because I "judge" Him to be good, rather I believe Him to be good. I believe Him to be good because of theological and philosophical reasoning.

Now, what I see here is your inability to reconcile the doctrine of hell as it relates to the doctrine of election/predestination and foreknowledge. Let me tell you the answer is not to limit God's omniscience.

kjw47 · Apr 15, 2014

justaname said:
Okay, lets head this off here. This is not a discussion on Calvinism or predestination.

My entire premise is that God knows who is going to heaven and who is not. (He is omniscient) This knowledge in no way makes God evil. Those who do not accept the Savior are accountable for their own actions and decisions.

I am not saying Adam is a lump of dishonor...

You say "lower grade math" yet God allowed Satan in the garden anyways... your premise does not fit here, according to you God knowing the outcome would make Him evil. (you can't just switch your premise to fit the situation)

God had Christ slain before the foundations of the world because He knew Adam would sin, yet God made Adam anyways. I need to be clear here, I am not saying Adam is in hell.

I serve God not because I "judge" Him to be good, rather I believe Him to be good. I believe Him to be good because of theological and philosophical reasoning.

Now, what I see here is your inability to reconcile the doctrine of hell as it relates to the doctrine of election/predestination and foreknowledge. Let me tell you the answer is not to limit God's omniscience.

Yes God knows who is going to heaven--rev 14-- 144,000 are bought by the blood of Jesus to have the hope of going to heaven--the little flock--the bride of Christ--the anointed. These will sit on thrones alongside of Jesus as kings and priests, helping do the judging.
As for the great crowd of other sheep--Jesus promised this---Happy( blessed) are the meek(mild tempered) for they will inherit the earth. The same hope taught to the Israelites in Psalm-- The righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.

Gods set of balanced judgement scales, make a place of eternal suffering an impossibility. It was symbolism. Eternal destruction in the lake of fire.

Floyd · Apr 15, 2014

Yes God knows who is going to heaven--rev 14-- 144,000 are bought by the blood of Jesus to have the hope of going to heaven--the little flock--the bride of Christ--the anointed. These will sit on thrones alongside of Jesus as kings and priests, helping do the judging.
As for the great crowd of other sheep--Jesus promised this---Happy( blessed) are the meek(mild tempered) for they will inherit the earth. The same hope taught to the Israelites in Psalm-- The righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.

Gods set of balanced judgement scales, make a place of eternal suffering an impossibility. It was symbolism. Eternal destruction in the lake of fire.

This is really screwed up; kjw47!!!

See:

CHAPTER 7

[SIZE=14pt]Note: It should be noted that there is much debate as to the word "earth," meaning the world and/or the land of Israel. The context often can be clear, but individual interpretation has to be tempered in light of the whole meaning of Revelation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]After this I saw (a)four angels[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]standing on the four corners of the (b)earth, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]holding fast the four [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]winds [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]of the earth, in order that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any (c)tree.[/SIZE]

(a) "Four;" always denotes dealings of the Almighty with earth.
(b) "Earth;" (Str. 1093) the whole of land masses and occupants.
(c) "Winds of the earth;" (see Jer. 49:36,) wind always damaging when it affects trees. The trees of the world are the replenishers of oxygen from Co[SIZE=small]2, and their damage has serious consequences for the world's eco-systems. The fact that this verse shows impending ravages on the earth's land masses and its occupants is significant in the context of chapter 6. However, the release of the ravages is delayed for a purpose.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And I saw another angel ascending from the (a)sun rising, having (a)a seal [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]of the (b)living God: and (c)he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[/SIZE]
(a) "Sun rising;" this may be mentioned to show God's control of all elements, and His use of them at His WILL, i.e. the reversing of the Sun 10[SIZE=small]o to confirm to Hezekiah that his life was extended 15 years, (2 Kings 20 and Isa. 38,) and also to refute the ancient Egyptian and others worship of the Sun. The Authorised translates, "the seal," but the Interlinear states "a seal." The Str. number (4973) renders the meaning "of private marking," and "fencing in, or protection from misappropriation," or danger, see comments V.3(a) below.[/SIZE]

The sun rise position in ancient sun worship, is an auspicious part and point of the day. The Egyptian Sphinx is pointed at the supposed point of the start of the “precession of the equinoxes," which is linked to the corrupted Zodiac (reputedly by Nimrod’s mother). The original Zodiac was God’s “map” of prophecy and witness.

(b) "Living God;" as clearly opposed to stone, wood idols etc., the word "living," also means life in all forms including resurrected life.
(c) "He," angels always referred to as male!

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Saying, "Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we have (a)sealed the[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]servants of our God, in their foreheads."[/SIZE]

(a) "Sealed;" in Matt. 24:31, an account is given of the collecting of "the elect." This may refer in part to the "sealed," but certainly refers to Jews who receive the Word during the "Great Tribulation." This reference to "sealing" is to "servants" of special order. The reason for the sealing is to protect from harm during the Tribulation period, which has its precedent in Num. 31, where 12,000 (one thousand from each tribe) were called by Moses to war against the Midianites, and not one man was lost (Num. 31:49.) Also particularly in Ezk. 9:4, where prior to the judgement and dispersion of Israel by Jehovah, and also His departure from the Temple, Jews who mourned and regretted the sin of Israel were marked for protection! This protection during the service (evangelism of the Kingdom Gospel,) they are to perform on the earth. They will clearly have success, as is shown by the results, see (ref. Rev. 7:9-17.) The fact that these sealed are a distinct group of Jews only,

As shown in v.9, peoples of many nations are before the throne in this vision drawn out of the Tribulation. Some teachers are of the opinion that these people are drawn from the Jewish dispersion around the world. At this stage in time we contend that they are drawn from all the world's population; and they have washed their robes “in the blood of the Lamb”, and many have died for Him!
This grouping is clearly defined as other than the Body of Christ (which is made up of all peoples, in the Age prior to the Revelation period,) and is linked to the group in V.9.
This 'sealing,' is for the forces of Jehovah Zebaoth on earth, in anti-thesis to the forces of Satan (sealed) in Rev. 13:16!
(b) In Scripture, servants are always of Israel, Isa. 49:3 when they are Ammi, carrying the "Administration"(Stewardship) of Almighty God. In this present Age, (The Age of Grace) all of Christ's Body carry the responsibility to witness to the Truth of Salvation in Christ; and have been “sealed” in heaven (Eph. 1:13, 2Cor. 1:22).

“Sealing” by God is an interesting subject, and it is notable that it is done for purpose by God, always in cases of special battle conditions with the enemy forces, both on earth and elsewhere.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And I heard the number of the (a)sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]children of Israel.[/SIZE]

(a) See the principle in Ezek. 9:3-4, there also a devoted remnant!
(b) "Children;" the Greek word is "Huios," which is a son or male (Str. 5207 and Comp. Appendix 108:3.) Therefore all the "sealed" are males, and are sealed for a purpose. 12,000 from each Jewish tribe. As most Jews do not know their tribe of origin, this is a demonstration of God's knowledge of all detail pertaining to His creation, as shown in Rev. 20:12-13, where His knowledge of all that a person (and all people) have done in their lives on earth, is used for the Judgement process and decision!

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of Judah[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Reuben[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Gad[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of Aser [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] Nepthalim[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Manasses [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of Simeon[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] 12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Levi [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Issachar [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of Zabulon[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] 12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Joseph [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] Benjamin [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]After this I saw, and, behold, (a)a great multitude [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]which no one could number, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] were standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]clothed with white robes, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]and (c)palms in their hands;[/SIZE]

(a) This multitude is clearly made up of [SIZE=12pt]all nations of the world[/SIZE]. This vision is a leap forward showing John and by implication anyone who can "see," that not just Jews are to be in this group, and the events from which they derive, (Isa. 49:6,7.)
(b) "Clothed with white robes;" V.14 below clearly describes the reason for these "white robes." They are worn only by those people who are persecuted, many to death, for their testimony and faith in Christ Jesus, during the Great Tribulation period. This clearly shows that as the Church of Christ (the true Body) has by this time been taken from the earth, that many people are truly converted to Christ in the terrible time of Antichrist rule and Tribulation. It also shows that although the main object of persecution by Antichrist is the Jews, any showing sympathy or kindness to Jews will also be so persecuted. It is interesting to note that the only test for the sheep and goat judgment at the beginning of Millennial by Christ is: "In as much as ye have done it unto one of even the least of these my brethren (Jews,) ye have done it unto Me," (Matt. 25:40.) See\; Sheep and Goat Judgement [SIZE=medium](Separate study).[/SIZE]
(c) "Palms;" the people of Jerusalem held and waved these, when Jesus rode into Jerusalem, crying "Hosanna" meaning "save now" or "help now," (Aramaiac = Hoshian -An) (Matt. 21:9-15) (Psm. 118:25-26.) The fulfilling on earth for Israel is yet to be, but the event shown to John in heaven is the fulfilment in heaven before the event. The reason for the holding and waving of palms etc., goes back to Lev.23:34-43, which in summary is a celebration of HARVEST, and DELIVERANCE from evil.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.10 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And they cry with a great voice, saying, (a)"Salvation [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]to our God Which sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb."[/SIZE]

(a) "Salvation;" has multiple meaning, (Str. 4991 rescuer, deliver, saviour.) (Str. 4990 A deliverer, saviour.) (Str. 4982 to save, deliver, to protect, heal, preserve make whole.) These many part meanings do not do justice to this event, as this great multitude of "white robed persons," together with angels, elders and Zoa, do heartfelt homage to God the Father.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.11 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four Zoa, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Saying (a)"Amen:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Blessing,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] and (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]glory[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt], and (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]wisdom[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt], and (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]thanksgiving,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] and (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]honour, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]and (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]power,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] and (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]might,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] be[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] unto our God[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] for ever and ever. (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Amen."[/SIZE]

(a) "Amen;" the meaning of this word in Chp. 3:14, is Christ Himself, speaking to the 7 churches. In 2 Cor. 1:20, the original Hebrew word is translated "verily," or truly, or Truth. As He is the Truth (Jn. 14:6) (Isa. 65:16) where "the God of Truth" is "the God of Amen," we can summarise by saying that it is one of the profound descriptions of the Godhead; and therefore eminently suitable for a beginning and ending of the sevenfold (spiritually perfect,) ascription that the host worshipping God are proclaiming.
(b) Seven fold ascription. Seven being the “spiritually perfect number” (App. 10 Comp).

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And one of the elders asked, saying unto me, (a)"Who are these that are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](a) See comment on V.9 above.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And I said unto him, "my Lord, thou knowest." And he said to me, (a)"These are they who came out of[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]The Great Tribulation[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt],[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]and washed their robes, and made them white[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]by the[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]blood of the Lamb.[/SIZE]

(a) See comment on V.9 above. There are many teachers (if not most!) that emphatically state that the ones referred to here are all Christians of all Ages (i.e. different Age times.) One of the justifications for that view is the reference in Rev. 4:1; "After these things," i.e. taught as after the seven churches of Rev. 2 and 3, and implying or stating that at that juncture (i.e. between Chp. 3 and 4) the Translation of the Church (the Body of Christ) shall have taken place. This seems to be a majority view. However, the writers at this stage in time (Jan. 2001 and 2014) do not hold to that view. To pivot so emphatically on Rev. 4:1 seems perverse, and stretches or ignores the meanings of Rev. 1:10 http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter1.htm#V.10(see notes,) where [SIZE=14pt]"the Day of the Lord (i.e. Jehovah,)"[/SIZE] to the writers seems the most profound pivot point in time, and is repeatedly referred to throughout the Old Testament, as one of the most profound changes on earth brought about by the Almighty. Also the whole scene is set by Christ before He addresses the 7 churches, where, predominantly "overcoming" is a repeated exhortation, and specific time is given to "endure" to Smyrna of 10 days! Whereas, specific times are carefully avoided in general in the New Testament, but time given in “days” generally in Scripture refer to troubled times in the context of Israel!

It is of course held by many not impossible that the Body of Christ is still on earth at that time and that "overcoming" is a later specific to be added to "faith." However, that would fly in the face of earlier teaching, especially by Paul, and would conflict with his writings, which were given veracity by our Lord’s comments [SIZE=14pt]“he is a chosen vessel!”[/SIZE] As mentioned above, the writers at this stage hold to the view that "the 7 churches," are specific to the 7 year period yet to be enacted of Daniel's vision, (see Rev. 11:2,) which is in a different Age (administration) of Jehovah, hence Christ’s new instruction and exhortation to them.

A further view is that the 7 ekklesia, (called out ones) refer to the history of the Jews at their various stages, which is a view developed by men in an attempt to explain the difference to earlier Old Testament standards, but ignores the fact that Christ never has dealt with Israel direct except in the flesh! (see Matt. 15:24 .) It is the failure of men and women to discern the changes in God’s Administrations (Ages,) with their changes of emphasis and rules, that has led, and still leads to wrong understanding and teaching. This leads to good hearted people being locked into wrong understandings and conflicting harmful teaching, with many people despairing. Most teaching groups are now iron-clad, and will not allow anything but their own standard view, even though they do not understand their own teaching, and are themselves confused.

Note; 2012 (also 2014)

The most reasonable view, in context, is that there is more than one "Rapture." Revelation is clearly a continuation of the Old Testament, Gospels and Acts; with Acts 28:28 as the change point of "Administration," (i.e. Dispensation or Age.) The time from Acts 28 to Revelation's start is clearly as Paul states, [SIZE=12pt]"the Mystery Church,"[/SIZE] or Body of Christ. It therefore follows that when its time is ended and its "number is made up;" it will be removed from the earth in what is called the "Rapture," or Translation, (Phil. 3:14)!

The fact that Paul described this event in detail in 1Thess. 4:13-17, and 1Cor. 15:20-23, and that these writings are prior to Acts 28 does not detract from the facts of both events; i.e. pre-Acts 28 Jews and Gentiles, and post Acts 28 Gentiles and Jews in the pre-Revelation event.

The grouping here described are clearly extracted from the "Great Tribulation," and are primarily Jews with Gentiles also, who have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb," V14. Their kinship and experience is similar to the Acts period Jews and Gentile Christians, and the verses of Scripture pertaining to them are: Matt. 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36, Jer. 50:4, Isa. 10:20-24 etc.

[SIZE=13.5pt]To summarise; the writers take the view that there are at least 2, possibly 3 "Translations."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1) Post Acts 28 to approx. the beginning of Revelation "Mystery Body of Christ."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2) Pre. Acts 28 "Body of Christ," which may or may not be simultaneous with 1), but may well be simultaneous with 3).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3) Overcomers described in Rev. 7, extracted from "the Great Tribulation," as described above; Scripture refs: Rev. 18:4, Jer. 50:4-9, Isa. 10:20-24.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]Not to be forgotten is the remarkable and miraculous raising and ascending of the special witnesses of God/Christ; Rev. 11:12.[/SIZE]

(b) "Washed their robes;" this profound comment, defines the difference between these people, and the people of the Church (Body) of Christ. In the case of the latter, God sees the individual in Christ, through Christ, through faith alone. In the case of the former, "they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb," so are accepted by the Father for their works and their faith in God and Christ in the Great Tribulation. Both groups have Christ as Saviour, in different Dispensations.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.l5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Because of this they are before the throne of God, and (a)serve [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Him continually in (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]His Temple: [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.[/SIZE]

(a) "Serve;" also means worship in this case.
(b) "His Temple;" not the Jews Temple, as Christ said on earth, nor that of the Tribulation period, but probably that of Ezekiel 40 to 43.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.16 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]They shall (a)hunger no more, nor (a)thirst anymore; nor shall the (a)sun light on them, nor any (a)heat.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](a) Clearly shows the horrors of the Great Tribulation, which corresponds with Matt. 24. etc.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.17 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt](a)For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne will tend and shepherd them, and shall lead them unto fountains of waters of life: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](a) See Isa, 49:8-10, Jer. 31:9-25, Ezk. 47:1-12[/SIZE]

Floyd.

kjw47 · Apr 16, 2014

Floyd said:
Yes God knows who is going to heaven--rev 14-- 144,000 are bought by the blood of Jesus to have the hope of going to heaven--the little flock--the bride of Christ--the anointed. These will sit on thrones alongside of Jesus as kings and priests, helping do the judging.
As for the great crowd of other sheep--Jesus promised this---Happy( blessed) are the meek(mild tempered) for they will inherit the earth. The same hope taught to the Israelites in Psalm-- The righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.

Gods set of balanced judgement scales, make a place of eternal suffering an impossibility. It was symbolism. Eternal destruction in the lake of fire.

This is really screwed up; kjw47!!!

See:

CHAPTER 7

[SIZE=14pt]Note: It should be noted that there is much debate as to the word "earth," meaning the world and/or the land of Israel. The context often can be clear, but individual interpretation has to be tempered in light of the whole meaning of Revelation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]After this I saw (a)four angels[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]standing on the four corners of the (b)earth, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]holding fast the four [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]winds [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]of the earth, in order that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any (c)tree.[/SIZE]

(a) "Four;" always denotes dealings of the Almighty with earth.
( B) "Earth;" (Str. 1093) the whole of land masses and occupants.
(c) "Winds of the earth;" (see Jer. 49:36,) wind always damaging when it affects trees. The trees of the world are the replenishers of oxygen from Co[SIZE=small]2, and their damage has serious consequences for the world's eco-systems. The fact that this verse shows impending ravages on the earth's land masses and its occupants is significant in the context of chapter 6. However, the release of the ravages is delayed for a purpose.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And I saw another angel ascending from the (a)sun rising, having (a)a seal [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]of the (b)living God: and (c)he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[/SIZE]
(a) "Sun rising;" this may be mentioned to show God's control of all elements, and His use of them at His WILL, i.e. the reversing of the Sun 10[SIZE=small]o to confirm to Hezekiah that his life was extended 15 years, (2 Kings 20 and Isa. 38,) and also to refute the ancient Egyptian and others worship of the Sun. The Authorised translates, "the seal," but the Interlinear states "a seal." The Str. number (4973) renders the meaning "of private marking," and "fencing in, or protection from misappropriation," or danger, see comments V.3(a) below.[/SIZE]

The sun rise position in ancient sun worship, is an auspicious part and point of the day. The Egyptian Sphinx is pointed at the supposed point of the start of the “precession of the equinoxes," which is linked to the corrupted Zodiac (reputedly by Nimrod’s mother). The original Zodiac was God’s “map” of prophecy and witness.

( B) "Living God;" as clearly opposed to stone, wood idols etc., the word "living," also means life in all forms including resurrected life.
(c) "He," angels always referred to as male!

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Saying, "Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we have (a)sealed the[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]servants of our God, in their foreheads."[/SIZE]

(a) "Sealed;" in Matt. 24:31, an account is given of the collecting of "the elect." This may refer in part to the "sealed," but certainly refers to Jews who receive the Word during the "Great Tribulation." This reference to "sealing" is to "servants" of special order. The reason for the sealing is to protect from harm during the Tribulation period, which has its precedent in Num. 31, where 12,000 (one thousand from each tribe) were called by Moses to war against the Midianites, and not one man was lost (Num. 31:49.) Also particularly in Ezk. 9:4, where prior to the judgement and dispersion of Israel by Jehovah, and also His departure from the Temple, Jews who mourned and regretted the sin of Israel were marked for protection! This protection during the service (evangelism of the Kingdom Gospel,) they are to perform on the earth. They will clearly have success, as is shown by the results, see (ref. Rev. 7:9-17.) The fact that these sealed are a distinct group of Jews only,

As shown in v.9, peoples of many nations are before the throne in this vision drawn out of the Tribulation. Some teachers are of the opinion that these people are drawn from the Jewish dispersion around the world. At this stage in time we contend that they are drawn from all the world's population; and they have washed their robes “in the blood of the Lamb”, and many have died for Him!
This grouping is clearly defined as other than the Body of Christ (which is made up of all peoples, in the Age prior to the Revelation period,) and is linked to the group in V.9.
This 'sealing,' is for the forces of Jehovah Zebaoth on earth, in anti-thesis to the forces of Satan (sealed) in Rev. 13:16!
( B) In Scripture, servants are always of Israel, Isa. 49:3 when they are Ammi, carrying the "Administration"(Stewardship) of Almighty God. In this present Age, (The Age of Grace) all of Christ's Body carry the responsibility to witness to the Truth of Salvation in Christ; and have been “sealed” in heaven (Eph. 1:13, 2Cor. 1:22).

“Sealing” by God is an interesting subject, and it is notable that it is done for purpose by God, always in cases of special battle conditions with the enemy forces, both on earth and elsewhere.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And I heard the number of the (a)sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]children of Israel.[/SIZE]

(a) See the principle in Ezek. 9:3-4, there also a devoted remnant!
( B) "Children;" the Greek word is "Huios," which is a son or male (Str. 5207 and Comp. Appendix 108:3.) Therefore all the "sealed" are males, and are sealed for a purpose. 12,000 from each Jewish tribe. As most Jews do not know their tribe of origin, this is a demonstration of God's knowledge of all detail pertaining to His creation, as shown in Rev. 20:12-13, where His knowledge of all that a person (and all people) have done in their lives on earth, is used for the Judgement process and decision!

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of Judah[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Reuben[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Gad[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of Aser [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] Nepthalim[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Manasses [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of Simeon[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] 12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Levi [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Issachar [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of Zabulon[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] 12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Joseph [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] Benjamin [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]After this I saw, and, behold, (a)a great multitude [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]which no one could number, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] were standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]clothed with white robes, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]and (c)palms in their hands;[/SIZE]

(a) This multitude is clearly made up of [SIZE=12pt]all nations of the world[/SIZE]. This vision is a leap forward showing John and by implication anyone who can "see," that not just Jews are to be in this group, and the events from which they derive, (Isa. 49:6,7.)
( B) "Clothed with white robes;" V.14 below clearly describes the reason for these "white robes." They are worn only by those people who are persecuted, many to death, for their testimony and faith in Christ Jesus, during the Great Tribulation period. This clearly shows that as the Church of Christ (the true Body) has by this time been taken from the earth, that many people are truly converted to Christ in the terrible time of Antichrist rule and Tribulation. It also shows that although the main object of persecution by Antichrist is the Jews, any showing sympathy or kindness to Jews will also be so persecuted. It is interesting to note that the only test for the sheep and goat judgment at the beginning of Millennial by Christ is: "In as much as ye have done it unto one of even the least of these my brethren (Jews,) ye have done it unto Me," (Matt. 25:40.) See\; Sheep and Goat Judgement [SIZE=medium](Separate study).[/SIZE]
(c) "Palms;" the people of Jerusalem held and waved these, when Jesus rode into Jerusalem, crying "Hosanna" meaning "save now" or "help now," (Aramaiac = Hoshian -An) (Matt. 21:9-15) (Psm. 118:25-26.) The fulfilling on earth for Israel is yet to be, but the event shown to John in heaven is the fulfilment in heaven before the event. The reason for the holding and waving of palms etc., goes back to Lev.23:34-43, which in summary is a celebration of HARVEST, and DELIVERANCE from evil.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.10 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And they cry with a great voice, saying, (a)"Salvation [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]to our God Which sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb."[/SIZE]

(a) "Salvation;" has multiple meaning, (Str. 4991 rescuer, deliver, saviour.) (Str. 4990 A deliverer, saviour.) (Str. 4982 to save, deliver, to protect, heal, preserve make whole.) These many part meanings do not do justice to this event, as this great multitude of "white robed persons," together with angels, elders and Zoa, do heartfelt homage to God the Father.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.11 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four Zoa, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Saying (a)"Amen:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Blessing,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] and ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]glory[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt], and ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]wisdom[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt], and ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]thanksgiving,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] and ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]honour, [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]and ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]power,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] and ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]might,[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] be[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] unto our God[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] for ever and ever. (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Amen."[/SIZE]

(a) "Amen;" the meaning of this word in Chp. 3:14, is Christ Himself, speaking to the 7 churches. In 2 Cor. 1:20, the original Hebrew word is translated "verily," or truly, or Truth. As He is the Truth (Jn. 14:6) (Isa. 65:16) where "the God of Truth" is "the God of Amen," we can summarise by saying that it is one of the profound descriptions of the Godhead; and therefore eminently suitable for a beginning and ending of the sevenfold (spiritually perfect,) ascription that the host worshipping God are proclaiming.
( B) Seven fold ascription. Seven being the “spiritually perfect number” (App. 10 Comp).

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And one of the elders asked, saying unto me, (a)"Who are these that are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](a) See comment on V.9 above.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And I said unto him, "my Lord, thou knowest." And he said to me, (a)"These are they who came out of[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]The Great Tribulation[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt],[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]and washed their robes, and made them white[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]by the[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]blood of the Lamb.[/SIZE]

(a) See comment on V.9 above. There are many teachers (if not most!) that emphatically state that the ones referred to here are all Christians of all Ages (i.e. different Age times.) One of the justifications for that view is the reference in Rev. 4:1; "After these things," i.e. taught as after the seven churches of Rev. 2 and 3, and implying or stating that at that juncture (i.e. between Chp. 3 and 4) the Translation of the Church (the Body of Christ) shall have taken place. This seems to be a majority view. However, the writers at this stage in time (Jan. 2001 and 2014) do not hold to that view. To pivot so emphatically on Rev. 4:1 seems perverse, and stretches or ignores the meanings of Rev. 1:10 http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter1.htm#V.10(see notes,) where [SIZE=14pt]"the Day of the Lord (i.e. Jehovah,)"[/SIZE] to the writers seems the most profound pivot point in time, and is repeatedly referred to throughout the Old Testament, as one of the most profound changes on earth brought about by the Almighty. Also the whole scene is set by Christ before He addresses the 7 churches, where, predominantly "overcoming" is a repeated exhortation, and specific time is given to "endure" to Smyrna of 10 days! Whereas, specific times are carefully avoided in general in the New Testament, but time given in “days” generally in Scripture refer to troubled times in the context of Israel!

It is of course held by many not impossible that the Body of Christ is still on earth at that time and that "overcoming" is a later specific to be added to "faith." However, that would fly in the face of earlier teaching, especially by Paul, and would conflict with his writings, which were given veracity by our Lord’s comments [SIZE=14pt]“he is a chosen vessel!”[/SIZE] As mentioned above, the writers at this stage hold to the view that "the 7 churches," are specific to the 7 year period yet to be enacted of Daniel's vision, (see Rev. 11:2,) which is in a different Age (administration) of Jehovah, hence Christ’s new instruction and exhortation to them.

A further view is that the 7 ekklesia, (called out ones) refer to the history of the Jews at their various stages, which is a view developed by men in an attempt to explain the difference to earlier Old Testament standards, but ignores the fact that Christ never has dealt with Israel direct except in the flesh! (see Matt. 15:24 .) It is the failure of men and women to discern the changes in God’s Administrations (Ages,) with their changes of emphasis and rules, that has led, and still leads to wrong understanding and teaching. This leads to good hearted people being locked into wrong understandings and conflicting harmful teaching, with many people despairing. Most teaching groups are now iron-clad, and will not allow anything but their own standard view, even though they do not understand their own teaching, and are themselves confused.

Note; 2012 (also 2014)

The most reasonable view, in context, is that there is more than one "Rapture." Revelation is clearly a continuation of the Old Testament, Gospels and Acts; with Acts 28:28 as the change point of "Administration," (i.e. Dispensation or Age.) The time from Acts 28 to Revelation's start is clearly as Paul states, [SIZE=12pt]"the Mystery Church,"[/SIZE] or Body of Christ. It therefore follows that when its time is ended and its "number is made up;" it will be removed from the earth in what is called the "Rapture," or Translation, (Phil. 3:14)!

The fact that Paul described this event in detail in 1Thess. 4:13-17, and 1Cor. 15:20-23, and that these writings are prior to Acts 28 does not detract from the facts of both events; i.e. pre-Acts 28 Jews and Gentiles, and post Acts 28 Gentiles and Jews in the pre-Revelation event.

The grouping here described are clearly extracted from the "Great Tribulation," and are primarily Jews with Gentiles also, who have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb," V14. Their kinship and experience is similar to the Acts period Jews and Gentile Christians, and the verses of Scripture pertaining to them are: Matt. 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36, Jer. 50:4, Isa. 10:20-24 etc.

[SIZE=13.5pt]To summarise; the writers take the view that there are at least 2, possibly 3 "Translations."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1) Post Acts 28 to approx. the beginning of Revelation "Mystery Body of Christ."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2) Pre. Acts 28 "Body of Christ," which may or may not be simultaneous with 1), but may well be simultaneous with 3).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3) Overcomers described in Rev. 7, extracted from "the Great Tribulation," as described above; Scripture refs: Rev. 18:4, Jer. 50:4-9, Isa. 10:20-24.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]Not to be forgotten is the remarkable and miraculous raising and ascending of the special witnesses of God/Christ; Rev. 11:12.[/SIZE]

( B) "Washed their robes;" this profound comment, defines the difference between these people, and the people of the Church (Body) of Christ. In the case of the latter, God sees the individual in Christ, through Christ, through faith alone. In the case of the former, "they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb," so are accepted by the Father for their works and their faith in God and Christ in the Great Tribulation. Both groups have Christ as Saviour, in different Dispensations.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.l5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Because of this they are before the throne of God, and (a)serve [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Him continually in ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]His Temple: [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.[/SIZE]

(a) "Serve;" also means worship in this case.
( B) "His Temple;" not the Jews Temple, as Christ said on earth, nor that of the Tribulation period, but probably that of Ezekiel 40 to 43.

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.16 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]They shall (a)hunger no more, nor (a)thirst anymore; nor shall the (a)sun light on them, nor any (a)heat.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](a) Clearly shows the horrors of the Great Tribulation, which corresponds with Matt. 24. etc.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.17 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt](a)For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne will tend and shepherd them, and shall lead them unto fountains of waters of life: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](a) See Isa, 49:8-10, Jer. 31:9-25, Ezk. 47:1-12[/SIZE]

Floyd.

Is there a point in all of this you are trying to bring out? I am in 8 different sights--I have no time to read a book.

FHII · Apr 16, 2014

nm...

kjw47 · Apr 17, 2014

FHII said:
nm...

This is what Gods word teaches---- there is one flock--but 2 groups--the little flock( bride of Christ)( anointed)
and the great crowd--all will stand before the throne no matter if on earth, the moon or in heaven. Gods kingdom will never end--the only ruling power to ever exist forever( Daniel 2:44)
Rev 14 makes it clear 144,000( little flock) are bought from the earth---- as for the great crowd of other sheep, Jesus promised---Happy are the meek for they will inherit the earth. As did the psalmist when he wrote--the righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.
no matter where one is they will be standing before the throne 24/7.

Corrupt leaders = Proof of free will

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