Will the real "Antichrist" please stand up?

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Jun2u

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Retrobyter

Word studies are a help but it is not the Gospel. It does not take for anyone to be a “rocket scientist” to know that Jesus is the “Christ” and that there are others who are “pseudo-Christ” or “anti-Christ” or a “fake-Christ.” And, it is false to say, one must know what and who is a "messiah" before one can intelligently say what an "antichrist" is.

This is a more accurate rendition of this passage because the Greek word translated as "sin" or "lawlessness" is "anomias," a compound of "a-," meaning "without," and "nomos" meaning the "Law," in particular, the "Law of Moses" commonly called the "Torah," consisting of the first five books of the Bible (also called the Pentateuch). Thus, he is a man who will be religious but without the Law! Of whom would this most concern if not the Jews?!
And in English it is called the “Law of Moses and the Prophets.” Thank you for the addition above which I’ve neglected to mention in my last post

Some allow themselves to be too nebulous and vague, suggesting that this "kingship" refers to the ENTIRE UNIVERSE! Some will take it "off-world" entirely and say that this "kingship" refers to another dimension called "Heaven!" Some will make it a personal thing and say that He is "King of our hearts" (not that they truly know what a "heart" is).

Readers, you may not like what I'm about to say, but if you have such an understanding of this statement, then YOU, TOO, might be an "antichristos" as John understood the word!
WOW, I didn’t know the “kingship” of Jesus was in question. I thought the OP was about the person of the antiChrist and since I’m not familiar with the statement then I must be an “antichristos.” Wow, this is really heavy! I’m sorry, but John did not understand it like you have understood it.

From Ol’ Jack

Thank you for your work and sharing!

My view of the "Antichrist" is more in line with IIThess.2:4, ie, along with others that feel the same thus nothing new, however has more to do with this "Antichrist" revealing himself as the "Antichrist" by this pagan act of seating himself in the true God's own"Sanctuary," not "Temple" in our renditions - Today! Not projecting this off to some future time.

Old Thess. Jack


from Jun2u

A word of encouragement!
Lu 10:21

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Old Jack
You are more spiritual than most, if not all, who posts in here. They are not aware the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be spiritually discerned. Keep up the good work for this is pleasing to God.

This thread has got to be a trick OP! Firstly, the author of the OP asks a question. Secondly, unbeknown to him he answered his own question with a key verse hidden in the four scripture texts he presented. Thirdly, that tells me he has no idea who the anti-Christ is!

It should have taken only one scripture text to expose the real anti-Christ. I’m still waiting for the other posters here to see if they caught that particular verse and nothing nada. I’m truly disappointed. I will assume therefore; that they too don’t know the character of the true identity of the anti-Christ for I believe this is due to their trusting for answers “out there” (in the world) instead of in the Bible.


The scripture in question is 1Jo 4:3 and it reads:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Please note that I purposely omitted the italicized word “spirit.” The translators put it there to “enhance” or make the passage “clearer” but it was not in the original manuscripts. I don’t think it would have mattered much anyway even if it was omitted or not. Lust look at the language on how John wrote the passage. He is saying that the antichrist was already living in his time as he penned 1 John and yet is still to come. There is no human who lived back then in John’s time for almost two thousand years and is still to come, impossible!!! The one who fits the bill to a tee as the antiChrist is none other than >>>SATAN. He it is, is “THE ANTICHRIST.” The world is looking for him in the form of a man and I’m afraid they will have a very, very long wait. SATAN, PLEASE STAND UP!!!

To God Be The Glory
 

shturt678

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack (aka shturt678).


Then you should also know that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is talking about something different than most Christians understand it.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-14
2:1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.
For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. 4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the glory of his coming.
9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. 10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. 11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. 12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned.
13 But we have to keep thanking God for you always, brothers whom the Lord loves, because God chose you as firstfruits for deliverance by giving you the holiness that has its origin in the Spirit and the faithfulness that has its origin in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our Good News, so that you could have the glory of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.
CJB
Thank you for your response, caring, and your work!

A little more of a 'different' rendition breaking out our ol' Interlinears, ie, IIThess.2:3, 4, "Do not let anyone decieve you in any way! Because except there first come the apostasy, and there be revealed the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition, v.4 the one opposindg and exalting himself against everyone called God or (every) object of worship, so that he seats himself in the SANCTUARY of God (naos), showing himself off that he is God."



This is a more accurate rendition of this passage because the Greek word translated as "sin" or "lawlessness" is "anomias," a compound of "a-," meaning "without," and "nomos" meaning the "Law," in particular, the "Law of Moses" commonly called the "Torah," consisting of the first five books of the Bible (also called the Pentateuch). Thus, he is a man who will be religious but without the Law! Of whom would this most concern if not the Jews?
V.3, "of the lawlessness," the readings vary, ie, anomias, and the broader amartias: "of the lawlessness" - "of the sin"; there is not much difference in substance between them contextually and grammatically, the former is probably textually correct. The genitive is qualitative of course just by default: the man marked by the lawlessness obviously; both articles are most definite; there is no other man, no other lawlessness in general such as regards to the Torah, but the special, unprecidented lawlessness that marks this man and accompanies this apostasy that did get a good kick-start waaay back in the 6th century let alone in today's time (good job brakelite - thank you too Retrobyter for all your work and caring!).

The same is true with regard to the apposition: "the son of perdition"; perdition marks him from the start, and there is only one such perdition. This is exactly what Jesus called Judas in Jn.17:12; he, too, was an apostasy in the eminant sense, ie, had a justifying "faith" at the beginning and lost his "faith" at some point. The Antichrist is thus the antitype of Judas. My subpoint: O anthrwpos states that the Antichrist is not Satan nor the beast in Rev.13, but a sequence of men and thus o uios, "the son of the perdition."



"Naos" means a "DWELLING." And, in context, this is the "DWELLING of God!" It's the Greek way of saying the Hebrew "beeyt Elohiym" which means the "House of God," which every child of Isra'el knew meant the "Temple!"
Everywhere one sees naos render "Sanctuary." Everywhere one sees ieron render "Temple." The ieron includes all the four courtyards, pillers, buildings, and etc. where the naos is the little sacred building in the center of the ieron (a public place) where naos (composed of the Most Holy Place and Holy Place) is non-public and sacred.



Since there is currently no Temple, there not only must be one in the future, but it must also be so desecrated by this man who separates himself from the Torah.
Old 'sanctuary' Jack


Jun2u said:
Retrobyter

Word studies are a help but it is not the Gospel. It does not take for anyone to be a “rocket scientist” to know that Jesus is the “Christ” and that there are others who are “pseudo-Christ” or “anti-Christ” or a “fake-Christ.” And, it is false to say, one must know what and who is a "messiah" before one can intelligently say what an "antichrist" is.


And in English it is called the “Law of Moses and the Prophets.” Thank you for the addition above which I’ve neglected to mention in my last post


WOW, I didn’t know the “kingship” of Jesus was in question. I thought the OP was about the person of the antiChrist and since I’m not familiar with the statement then I must be an “antichristos.” Wow, this is really heavy! I’m sorry, but John did not understand it like you have understood it.


From Ol’ Jack


Thank you for your work and sharing!

My view of the "Antichrist" is more in line with IIThess.2:4, ie, along with others that feel the same thus nothing new, however has more to do with this "Antichrist" revealing himself as the "Antichrist" by this pagan act of seating himself in the true God's own"Sanctuary," not "Temple" in our renditions - Today! Not projecting this off to some future time.

Old Thess. Jack


from Jun2u

A word of encouragement!
Lu 10:21

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Old Jack
You are more spiritual than most, if not all, who posts in here. They are not aware the Bible is a spiritual book and must therefore be spiritually discerned. Keep up the good work for this is pleasing to God.

This thread has got to be a trick OP! Firstly, the author of the OP asks a question. Secondly, unbeknown to him he answered his own question with a key verse hidden in the four scripture texts he presented. Thirdly, that tells me he has no idea who the anti-Christ is!

It should have taken only one scripture text to expose the real anti-Christ. I’m still waiting for the other posters here to see if they caught that particular verse and nothing nada. I’m truly disappointed. I will assume therefore; that they too don’t know the character of the true identity of the anti-Christ for I believe this is due to their trusting for answers “out there” (in the world) instead of in the Bible.


The scripture in question is 1Jo 4:3 and it reads:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Please note that I purposely omitted the italicized word “spirit.” The translators put it there to “enhance” or make the passage “clearer” but it was not in the original manuscripts. I don’t think it would have mattered much anyway even if it was omitted or not. Lust look at the language on how John wrote the passage. He is saying that the antichrist was already living in his time as he penned 1 John and yet is still to come. There is no human who lived back then in John’s time for almost two thousand years and is still to come, impossible!!! The one who fits the bill to a tee as the antiChrist is none other than >>>SATAN. He it is, is “THE ANTICHRIST.” The world is looking for him in the form of a man and I’m afraid they will have a very, very long wait. SATAN, PLEASE STAND UP!!!

To God Be The Glory

Thank you for your response and encouraging words!

I have Satan personally 'bound' at the Cross (Rev.12:7, etc.) and must work thrugh the Antichristian propaganda and power (Rev.13:1-18) since the Cross only awaiting for Satan's personal loosing of course, ie, right around the corner (Rev.20:7).

Thank you again,

Old Jack
 
B

brakelite

Guest
In reply to the previous poster who claims the 'antichrist' as being Satan, below is an excerpt from a sermon by the renowned preacher and writer Puritan Thomas Manton in the 17th century. Charles Spurgeon testified to Manton's works as being “a mighty mountain of sound theology”

But because he is called the man of sin, here it cometh fitly to be inquired whether Antichrist be an individual person? for ‘that man of sin’ would seem to be some single person. No; he is put for a society and succession of men, that make up the head of the apostate state. As one lion figured the whole kingdom of the Babylonians, and one bear the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, and one leopard the kingdom of the Grecians, Dan. 7, — and there the fourth beast is the fourth kingdom, — so one person that succession of men that head the revolters from Christ. So Dan. 8, a goat figured a succession of kings; so the Assyrian, Isa. 10:5, several kings in that empire; so Isa. 14:9, the king of Babylon, meaning not one but many. So this man of sin doth not note a single man, but a succession of men, a body politic or corporate, under one opposite head to the kingdom of Christ: so the ‘man of God’ is put for all faithful ministers, 2 Tim. 3:17; so ‘honour the king,’ I Peter 2:17, series regum. So o arciereus, Heb. 9:25, ‘The high priest every year entereth into the holy place;’ meaning not one, but the succession of the order; and in reason it must needs be so here. Because Antichrist, from his beginning to his end, from his rise and revelation, till his ruin and destruction, will take up such a long track of time, as cannot fall within the age of any one man, even from the time of the apostles till the end of the world. Antichrist is the head of the apostasy; for here the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin are tied together; now the mysterious apostasy could not be perfected in a short time.

In this sermon, Manton, like many reformers before him, was applying the prophecy of 2 Thess. concerning the man of sin directly to the papal system.

There is a further aspect to the passage from 2 Thess. I would like to offer.
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

“Whose coming is after the working of Satan!!?” This cannot be Satan himself, that would not make sense. Is is perhaps then competition? We read in Isaiah about Satan's lust for power and glory, yet here we see an entity vying for the top spot also. Not competition, but his own child! Here is Satan’s baby. Here is that creation of his which enters the church (the temple of God is the church in the NT) and in his place accepts man’s worship by proclaiming himself God, but it is in fact Satan who receives the ultimate glory.

Satan could not himself enter the church, but he could very easily use someone else to do that for him, and through him, receive the worship he desires. By misrepresenting God, and introducing a counterfeit God and a counterfeit religion to worship that God, Satan has deceived millions. Allow me to make a point regarding deception, using counterfeit money as an example. People are not deceived into believing that it is acceptable in the eyes of the authorities to use counterfeit money. The deception operates by way of blinding the people that it is a counterfeit. It is fake, but they believe it to be real. It is the same with religion. Satan would deceive very few into thinking that it is acceptable to God for man to worship Satan. But he has had resounding success in deceiving many into thinking and believing they are worshipping God, when in fact they are worshipping Satan. (See Revelation 13:4)

How does this work? Jesus explained it very clearly throughout His ministry, warning us repeatedly of false Christs and false prophets. Important to notice that if there be a false Christ then his followers must surely be false Christians. The expression ‘antichrist’ means that precisely; “one who stands in the place of Christ”. Therefore the followers of antichrist must also be professing Christians, the antichrist being the counterfeit of the true Christ, and his followers deceived into believing they are worshipping the true.
Jesus alluded to this very thing here;
Matt. 15:9. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men.
Notice here that Jesus was not saying these people were not worshipping, they were just not worshipping Him!

Most would be also familiar with the following;
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto Me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

Now if Jesus didn’t know them, it would be fairly safe to conclude that they didn’t know Him. They were doing all manner of religious stuff, including one would presume worship, but it certainly wasn’t Jesus they were worshipping, even though they believed it was, and when they came face to face with Him, called Him Lord!!!!
So who was it they were worshipping? Let us look at

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey…
According to this text, we are servants to whoever we obey. Regardless of our profession, it is in our acts that define who we worship. As Jesus said, in vain do they worship Him, when they obey the commandments of men which override the commandments and doctrines of God. And later, as we just saw, only those who do the will of the Father will be entering the kingdom of heaven. How eternally important is doctrine! How essential it is to understand truth!!! How critical it is that we be absolutely assured that what teachings we follow are based on sound Biblical truth rather than the teachings, interpretations, or traditions of man.

Doctrine is an integral part of worship. Jesus is here telling us that the creator of the doctrine is the object of our worship, regardless of the intent, sincere or otherwise, of the worshipper. It is through false doctrine that Satan has deceived millions into believing they are worshipping God when in fact they are worshipping him. It is through false teaching- doctrines that are the invention of Satan and taught by man, that Satan has established his counterfeit God, and his counterfeit religion of worshipping that god.
The book of Revelation reveals this to us clearly.
The true things of God have Satanic counterparts. There is a false trinity; the dragon, sea-beast (antichrist) and false prophet. This false trinity has a false message (Revel 16:13) – a counterfeit of the true 3 angels messages, the everlasting gospel, of Revel. 14:6-12. The false trinity is associated with a false city, Babylon. This city, like the New Jerusalem, has a river, and is called ‘great’. (18:10). The antichrist himself is a counterfeit Christ. Jesus proclaimed His threefold ministry in Matthew 12:6,41,42. He proclaimed Himself as the ultimate Priest, Prophet, and King, and rightly so. However, there is an entity living upon the earth as we speak who also claims, falsely, these very same prerogatives, and claims them to be his universal right. By claiming to be the sole arbiter and interpreter of scripture, by claiming the power to forgive sin, by claiming universal authority in religious matters, (thus subverting Christ’s ministry of High priest); by claiming the power to change God’s times and laws,and claiming the sole right to speak upon the earth as God’s representative, and claiming the right to judge who does or does not enter the kingdom of God, (thus subverting role as Prophet), by claiming the right and seeking secular authority over all the earth,(thus subverting Christ’s role as King) the Catholic Church has indeed “opposed and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sits in the temple of God, (the church), showing himself that he is God.”
The messages themselves also have parallels. Both the true and the false are designed to gather people together to their makers; the false to Satan,(Revel. 16:14), the true to Jesus (Revel. 14:7). Both are also designed to go to all mankind (Revel 14:6; 16:14.) It is no coincidence that the true message, that of Revel. 14:6-12, is focused on worshipping God, the Creator of all things. Right throughout the book of Revelation, we are confronted by worship. In particular we see in Rev. 13 several references to the deceptive practices of the antichrist and the false prophet, through whom Satan deceives the whole world, resulting in false worship. In contrast, the true worshippers are described as those who keep God’s commandments. (Revel. 12: 17; 14:12.) See how neatly all this falls in with Jesus declaration that those who enter heaven must be obeying God, doing the will of the Father. Elsewhere Jesus said “If ye love Me, keep My commandments.”
With this in mind, and remembering Romans 6:16, the big question is, and the one we must all ask ourselves if we are to have any assurance of eternal life, is, whose commandments are they which I am surrendered to? Who am I obeying? Many hold the word of God as the authority in religious matters. Others, a combination of scripture and tradition, and others, the church. Many churches today don’t even teach doctrine any more, as they think because it tends to divide, then they must avoid it. Mega churches have been built on this premise. If they don’t study doctrine however how can they discern the real from the false? Doctrine matters. Our eternal destiny hinges on our correct understanding of Biblical truth. Of course the RCC teaches that they have the inherent right to decide what true doctrine is and what is false, by referring to the traditions handed down from the church fathers. Many of those traditions however, are in direct contradiction to the revealed word of God as shown in scripture. Truth is progressive. It builds on foundations already established, but nowhere must it contradict what God has previously been pleased to reveal to His people through His word. An example of one surrendering to false teaching and suffering as a result is found in 1 Kings 13:1-34. Believing the lie brought to him by a false prophet did not excuse the unnamed man of God from Judea for his disobedience.
The teachings of churches, ecclesiastical institutions such as seminaries and Bible colleges, or church councils be they great or small, are valid only in as much as they agree with scripture. All else is vain.
The reformers were discovering truths hidden and obscured for centuries by the church. Being progressive, truth took some time to come to the light. Several hundred years in fact, and several denominations later. Sadly, the former reformers’ followers denounced the new teachings that the Holy Spirit was bringing to light through later reformers, and the churches that were founded on the reformers stagnated and never grew. Today, the reformation goes on. We must always be ready and willing to receive new light regarding truth, but only inasmuch as it agrees with scripture.
So why was it that the reformers were willing to risk so much in their denunciation of the papal church? Truth. They came to a point in their lives when error was no longer to be tolerated. The word of God, the Bible, became the foundation of faith and practice, and although the whole truth had not yet been revealed to them, they were willing to risk their lives in defence of what light they had.
 

shturt678

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Feb 9, 2013
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South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
brakelite said:
In reply to the previous poster who claims the 'antichrist' as being Satan, below is an excerpt from a sermon by the renowned preacher and writer Puritan Thomas Manton in the 17th century. Charles Spurgeon testified to Manton's works as being “a mighty mountain of sound theology”
<snip> Only for clarity.



Satan could not himself enter the church, but he could very easily use someone else to do that for him, and through him, receive the worship he desires. By misrepresenting God, and introducing a counterfeit God and a counterfeit religion to worship that God, Satan has deceived millions. Allow me to make a point regarding deception, using counterfeit money as an example. People are not deceived into believing that it is acceptable in the eyes of the authorities to use counterfeit money. The deception operates by way of blinding the people that it is a counterfeit. It is fake, but they believe it to be real. It is the same with religion. Satan would deceive very few into thinking that it is acceptable to God for man to worship Satan. But he has had resounding success in deceiving many into thinking and believing they are worshipping God, when in fact they are worshipping Satan. (See Revelation 13:4)
Most accurate interpretation I've seen posted on any forum for too long of time, ie, good job!!!



How does this work? Jesus explained it very clearly throughout His ministry, warning us repeatedly of false Christs and false prophets. Important to notice that if there be a false Christ then his followers must surely be false Christians. The expression ‘antichrist’ means that precisely; “one who stands in the place of Christ”. Therefore the followers of antichrist must also be professing Christians, the antichrist being the counterfeit of the true Christ, and his followers deceived into believing they are worshipping the true.
Jesus alluded to this very thing here;
Matt. 15:9. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men.
Notice here that Jesus was not saying these people were not worshipping, they were just not worshipping Him!

Most would be also familiar with the following;
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto Me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

Now if Jesus didn’t know them, it would be fairly safe to conclude that they didn’t know Him. They were doing all manner of religious stuff, including one would presume worship, but it certainly wasn’t Jesus they were worshipping, even though they believed it was, and when they came face to face with Him, called Him Lord!!!!
So who was it they were worshipping? Let us look at
Excellent posit!



Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey…
According to this text, we are servants to whoever we obey. Regardless of our profession, it is in our acts that define who we worship. As Jesus said, in vain do they worship Him, when they obey the commandments of men which override the commandments and doctrines of God. And later, as we just saw, only those who do the will of the Father will be entering the kingdom of heaven. How eternally important is doctrine! How essential it is to understand truth!!! How critical it is that we be absolutely assured that what teachings we follow are based on sound Biblical truth rather than the teachings, interpretations, or traditions of man.

Doctrine is an integral part of worship. Jesus is here telling us that the creator of the doctrine is the object of our worship, regardless of the intent, sincere or otherwise, of the worshipper. It is through false doctrine that Satan has deceived millions into believing they are worshipping God when in fact they are worshipping him. It is through false teaching- doctrines that are the invention of Satan and taught by man, that Satan has established his counterfeit God, and his counterfeit religion of worshipping that god.
The book of Revelation reveals this to us clearly.
The true things of God have Satanic counterparts. There is a false trinity; the dragon, sea-beast (antichrist) and false prophet. This false trinity has a false message (Revel 16:13) – a counterfeit of the true 3 angels messages, the everlasting gospel, of Revel. 14:6-12. The false trinity is associated with a false city, Babylon. This city, like the New Jerusalem, has a river, and is called ‘great’. (18:10). The antichrist himself is a counterfeit Christ. Jesus proclaimed His threefold ministry in Matthew 12:6,41,42. He proclaimed Himself as the ultimate Priest, Prophet, and King, and rightly so. However, there is an entity living upon the earth as we speak who also claims, falsely, these very same prerogatives, and claims them to be his universal right. By claiming to be the sole arbiter and interpreter of scripture, by claiming the power to forgive sin, by claiming universal authority in religious matters, (thus subverting Christ’s ministry of High priest); by claiming the power to change God’s times and laws,and claiming the sole right to speak upon the earth as God’s representative, and claiming the right to judge who does or does not enter the kingdom of God, (thus subverting role as Prophet), by claiming the right and seeking secular authority over all the earth,(thus subverting Christ’s role as King) the Catholic Church has indeed “opposed and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sits in the temple of God, (the church), showing himself that he is God.”
The messages themselves also have parallels. Both the true and the false are designed to gather people together to their makers; the false to Satan,(Revel. 16:14), the true to Jesus (Revel. 14:7). Both are also designed to go to all mankind (Revel 14:6; 16:14.) It is no coincidence that the true message, that of Revel. 14:6-12, is focused on worshipping God, the Creator of all things. Right throughout the book of Revelation, we are confronted by worship. In particular we see in Rev. 13 several references to the deceptive practices of the antichrist and the false prophet, through whom Satan deceives the whole world, resulting in false worship. In contrast, the true worshippers are described as those who keep God’s commandments. (Revel. 12: 17; 14:12.) See how neatly all this falls in with Jesus declaration that those who enter heaven must be obeying God, doing the will of the Father. Elsewhere Jesus said “If ye love Me, keep My commandments.”
With this in mind, and remembering Romans 6:16, the big question is, and the one we must all ask ourselves if we are to have any assurance of eternal life, is, whose commandments are they which I am surrendered to? Who am I obeying? Many hold the word of God as the authority in religious matters. Others, a combination of scripture and tradition, and others, the church. Many churches today don’t even teach doctrine any more, as they think because it tends to divide, then they must avoid it. Mega churches have been built on this premise. If they don’t study doctrine however how can they discern the real from the false? Doctrine matters. Our eternal destiny hinges on our correct understanding of Biblical truth. Of course the RCC teaches that they have the inherent right to decide what true doctrine is and what is false, by referring to the traditions handed down from the church fathers. Many of those traditions however, are in direct contradiction to the revealed word of God as shown in scripture. Truth is progressive. It builds on foundations already established, but nowhere must it contradict what God has previously been pleased to reveal to His people through His word. An example of one surrendering to false teaching and suffering as a result is found in 1 Kings 13:1-34. Believing the lie brought to him by a false prophet did not excuse the unnamed man of God from Judea for his disobedience.
The teachings of churches, ecclesiastical institutions such as seminaries and Bible colleges, or church councils be they great or small, are valid only in as much as they agree with scripture. All else is vain.
The reformers were discovering truths hidden and obscured for centuries by the church. Being progressive, truth took some time to come to the light. Several hundred years in fact, and several denominations later. Sadly, the former reformers’ followers denounced the new teachings that the Holy Spirit was bringing to light through later reformers, and the churches that were founded on the reformers stagnated and never grew. Today, the reformation goes on. We must always be ready and willing to receive new light regarding truth, but only inasmuch as it agrees with scripture.
So why was it that the reformers were willing to risk so much in their denunciation of the papal church? Truth. They came to a point in their lives when error was no longer to be tolerated. The word of God, the Bible, became the foundation of faith and practice, and although the whole truth had not yet been revealed to them, they were willing to risk their lives in defence of what light they had.




Old Jack's view
 

Jun2u

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Reply to the person who posted the Manton Sermon. I apologize for nor not responding sooner but I was under the weather these last few days.

I want it known that I do not adhere to the works of others, nor read commentaries, no matter how holy the authors may seem for their works at best is still tainted by sin, unless they are faithful to the word of God. Let God be true and all men liars. I will only touch upon the subjects I feel you have misunderstood and if you believe I'm wrong then correct but only correct me by Scripture.

The following scripture texts are God's assessments of Pastors which also BTW are very much prevalent in the local congregations of the world, today:

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

My answers to Paragraphs #2, #3, and #4, Post #63

How ironic that men can device some kind of evil plans then say, “Thus sayeth the LORD” when God did not say it. Where in Scripture do you read the “man of sin” directly is associated with the papal system? Do we now create a dogma without the benefit of Scripture proofs? Are we to look for our spiritual answers "out there" (in the world) instead of in the Scripture?

I see you did not understand the meaning of 2Th 2:9 so you invent your own ideas to suit your theory. FYI, the word “him” is Jesus and not a “baby” or some kind of creation by Satan as you've said.

The phrase “whose coming is after the working of Satan...etc.,” the Greek word ”after” means “against.”

To make 2Th 2:9 much clearer to understand we can read it this way: “Even “Jesus,” whose coming is “against” the working of Satan...etc.,”

The working of Satan that is to come is the “falling away first” (the apostasy of the church) the “Abomination of Desolation” if you will, of Mt 24 and that “man of sin” be revealed the “son of perdition who opposes and exalts himself above all that is God.”

The “man of sin” and the “son of perdition” are one and the same which is typified by Lucifer who became Satan that we read about in Isa 14:12-16:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Are not the above texts familiar language with 2Th 2:3-4 and 1Jo 4:3?

You said: “Satan could not himself enter the church, but he could very easily use someone else to do that for him, and through him, receive the worship he desires.”

Really? Are you sure?

How would you interpret or expound on 2Th 2:4, where it reads that the man of sin “...sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God? To “sit” means to “rule” and this is exactly where Satan is at today ruling in the local congregations of the world! We read in 2Co 11:13-15:

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The Gospel should be found in local congregations however; the teachings have become apostate and have left their first love.

Re 2:2-4

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

I have no other qualms with the rest of your post except your quote: “Now if Jesus didn’t know them, it would be fairly safe to conclude that they didn’t know Him.”

Jesus never ceased to be God. He knows the end from the beginning!


Shtrut678

Caution:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

To God Be The Glory
 

shturt678

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Jun2u said:
Reply to the person who posted the Manton Sermon. I apologize for nor not responding sooner but I was under the weather these last few days.

I want it known that I do not adhere to the works of others, nor read commentaries, no matter how holy the authors may seem for their works at best is still tainted by sin, unless they are faithful to the word of God. Let God be true and all men liars. I will only touch upon the subjects I feel you have misunderstood and if you believe I'm wrong then correct but only correct me by Scripture.

The following scripture texts are God's assessments of Pastors which also BTW are very much prevalent in the local congregations of the world, today:

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

My answers to Paragraphs #2, #3, and #4, Post #63

How ironic that men can device some kind of evil plans then say, “Thus sayeth the LORD” when God did not say it. Where in Scripture do you read the “man of sin” directly is associated with the papal system? Do we now create a dogma without the benefit of Scripture proofs? Are we to look for our spiritual answers "out there" (in the world) instead of in the Scripture?

I see you did not understand the meaning of 2Th 2:9 so you invent your own ideas to suit your theory. FYI, the word “him” is Jesus and not a “baby” or some kind of creation by Satan as you've said.

The phrase “whose coming is after the working of Satan...etc.,” the Greek word ”after” means “against.”

To make 2Th 2:9 much clearer to understand we can read it this way: “Even “Jesus,” whose coming is “against” the working of Satan...etc.,”

The working of Satan that is to come is the “falling away first” (the apostasy of the church) the “Abomination of Desolation” if you will, of Mt 24 and that “man of sin” be revealed the “son of perdition who opposes and exalts himself above all that is God.”

The “man of sin” and the “son of perdition” are one and the same which is typified by Lucifer who became Satan that we read about in Isa 14:12-16:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Are not the above texts familiar language with 2Th 2:3-4 and 1Jo 4:3?

You said: “Satan could not himself enter the church, but he could very easily use someone else to do that for him, and through him, receive the worship he desires.”

Really? Are you sure?

How would you interpret or expound on 2Th 2:4, where it reads that the man of sin “...sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God? To “sit” means to “rule” and this is exactly where Satan is at today ruling in the local congregations of the world! We read in 2Co 11:13-15:

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The Gospel should be found in local congregations however; the teachings have become apostate and have left their first love.
Thank you for caring and responding, ie, accept your "caution" also sir.

You are so close to the truthful direction regarding IIThess.2:4, "...so that he seats himself in the sanctuary (not "Temple" sir) of God,...." meaning the antichritian propaganda sits in the true God's sanctuary, ie, men's hearts, who do not have an agape for the truth sort of thing today (IIThess.2:10b) - Satan was bound in the abyss at the Cross, and must work through his agencies.


Re 2:2-4

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

I have no other qualms with the rest of your post except your quote: “Now if Jesus didn’t know them, it would be fairly safe to conclude that they didn’t know Him.”

Jesus never ceased to be God. He knows the end from the beginning!


Shtrut678

Caution:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

To God Be The Glory
Old Jack that understands 'error' always operates with a tricky expertness, yet I do have a propensity for 'error.'
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Jun2u.....
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. You claim that the "him" spoken of above is Jesus. I would refer you to the following Youngs Literal Translation for that text ....

2Th 2:9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,......according to your premise therefore Jesus came with the same spirit as the adversary, including lying wonders.

Would I be correct in assuming that your attempts to protect the papal system is based on your own personal membership of that communion? If so, your instinct is admirable, and understandable. However, to ascribe every prophetic utterance to Satan at the expense of a worldy entity is frought with difficulty if based on the premise that there is, according to you, "no Biblical evidence" for such an accusation. For the truth my friend is that there is a great deal of evidence, and it was that evidence that inspired the reformers to point to the papacy as the Antichrist. And it is to Protestantisms' great shame that for the great part, today there is a turning away from what the reformers, at the cost of their lives, were willing to testify to.

Please reread post http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19962-will-the-real-antichrist-please-stand-up/?p=226450

In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. Therefore the falling away here is primarily surely the falling away of God's people into apostasy. The only other example of a ‘son of perdition’ is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. He is not an opposer, but a subtle imposter. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of Priesthood, the Prophet or spokesmanship, and the Kingly rule of Christ. The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.
Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?

So how does Antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King?

  • Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even?
  • Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as Gods spokesman on earth and claim that only through it’s authority can salvation be found?
  • And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?
I think you all know the answer is yes.There is an entity in the world today who claims all the above Godly prerogatives which belong only to Jesus Christ. Priest, prophet and king.This entity has set itself up as counterfeit and thus can be affirmatively identified as the antichrist, the impostor and impersonator of the true. And this entity can be found in the Roman Catholic church system.
In Roman Catholic theology is also the embedded principle of ‘replacement’ or ‘displacement’ of Jesus.The entire sacramental system is based on the premise that only through participation in the sacraments as administered by Rome, can anyone hope for eternal life. Rome does not recognise any path to eternity apart from that which she has ordained through the priesthood under the headship of the Roman bishop. Thus Rome has implemented a system of works that men must do, or tasks that men must accomplish, be it confession to a priest, penance, participation in mass, partaking of the Eucharist, pilgrimages to shrines or basilicas, recitation of the rosary, or prayers to Mary or the saints and many other ‘religious’ acts, all for the purpose of salvation. The Protestant principle of ‘sola fide’, faith only, is anathema to Rome.

Jun2u said:
Reply to the person who posted the Manton Sermon. I apologize for nor not responding sooner but I was under the weather these last few days.

I want it known that I do not adhere to the works of others, nor read commentaries, no matter how holy the authors may seem for their works at best is still tainted by sin, unless they are faithful to the word of God. Let God be true and all men liars. I will only touch upon the subjects I feel you have misunderstood and if you believe I'm wrong then correct but only correct me by Scripture.

The following scripture texts are God's assessments of Pastors which also BTW are very much prevalent in the local congregations of the world, today:

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jer 12:10 Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

My answers to Paragraphs #2, #3, and #4, Post #63

How ironic that men can device some kind of evil plans then say, “Thus sayeth the LORD” when God did not say it. Where in Scripture do you read the “man of sin” directly is associated with the papal system? Do we now create a dogma without the benefit of Scripture proofs? Are we to look for our spiritual answers "out there" (in the world) instead of in the Scripture?

I see you did not understand the meaning of 2Th 2:9 so you invent your own ideas to suit your theory. FYI, the word “him” is Jesus and not a “baby” or some kind of creation by Satan as you've said.

The phrase “whose coming is after the working of Satan...etc.,” the Greek word ”after” means “against.”

To make 2Th 2:9 much clearer to understand we can read it this way: “Even “Jesus,” whose coming is “against” the working of Satan...etc.,”

The working of Satan that is to come is the “falling away first” (the apostasy of the church) the “Abomination of Desolation” if you will, of Mt 24 and that “man of sin” be revealed the “son of perdition who opposes and exalts himself above all that is God.”

The “man of sin” and the “son of perdition” are one and the same which is typified by Lucifer who became Satan that we read about in Isa 14:12-16:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Are not the above texts familiar language with 2Th 2:3-4 and 1Jo 4:3?

You said: “Satan could not himself enter the church, but he could very easily use someone else to do that for him, and through him, receive the worship he desires.”

Really? Are you sure?

How would you interpret or expound on 2Th 2:4, where it reads that the man of sin “...sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God? To “sit” means to “rule” and this is exactly where Satan is at today ruling in the local congregations of the world! We read in 2Co 11:13-15:

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The Gospel should be found in local congregations however; the teachings have become apostate and have left their first love.

Re 2:2-4

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

I have no other qualms with the rest of your post except your quote: “Now if Jesus didn’t know them, it would be fairly safe to conclude that they didn’t know Him.”

Jesus never ceased to be God. He knows the end from the beginning!


Shtrut678

Caution:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

To God Be The Glory
In this post you specifically asked for or demanded that the Bible and the Bible only (as as opposed to looking to the world for the fulfilment of prophecy) should be used to identify the Antichrist. Please study carefully the following.

Dragon/Satan.
His place in heaven (Rev 12:3, 7, 8.)
He has a throne. (Rev 13:2; 2:13)
Gives throne, power, and authority to sea-beast. (13:2,4.)
He is worshipped. (13:4a)
Destroyed forever. (20:9,10)

Now compare:
God the Father
Dwelling in heaven (Rev 4, 5)
He has a throne. (4:5; 7:9-15; 19:4)
Gives throne, power and authority to Jesus. (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27; 3:21; chapters 4,5.)
Is worshipped. (Rev 4:10; 15:4)
Lives and reign forever. (4:9; 5:13; 11:15)

The Land-beast or false prophet.
Called the false prophet because he decieves people with regards to religious matters. (16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
Lamb-like. (13:11)
Exercises all authority of sea-beast. (13:12a)
Directs worship to sea-beast. (13:12b,15)
Performs signs. (13:13; 19:20)
Brings fire down from heaven (13:13)
Gives breath/life to beasts image (13:15)
Applies mark of beast. (13:16)

Now compare:
The Holy Spirit
Called the Spirit of truth guiding people. (Jn 16:13 Rev 22:17)
Christ-like. (Jn 1426; 16:14)
Exercises authority of Christ (Jn 16:13, 14)
Directs worship to Christ (Acts 5:29-32)
Fire from heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2)
Instills life to us, the image of Christ. (Romans8:11,29)
Applies seal of God. (2 Cor 1:22 Eph 1:13 4:30 Rev 7:3, 4.)

The sea-beast or antichrist.
Comes from water to begin activity. (13:1)
Resembles dragon. (12:13 13:1)
Ten diadems. (13:1)
Ten horns (13:1)
Receives power throne and authority from dragon/Satan. (13:2,4)
42 months of activity in first phase. (13:5)
Was slain (13:3)
Resurrected (13:3)
Receives worship after healing (13:3,4,8)

Now compare:
Jesus Christ
Comes from water to begin ministry (Luke 3:21-23)
Resembles Father (Jn 14:19)
Many diadems (Rev 19:12)
Lamb has 7 horns (5:6)
Receives power throne and authority from His Father (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27 Chapters 4,5)
42 months of ministry in initial phase. (Gospel of John)
Was slain (Rev 5:6)
Was resurrected (Rev1:18)
Received worship after resurrection (Math 28:17)


Note one particular text that fully blows away any idea that Satan is the Antichrist. It is found in Revelation 13:2,4. The sea beast of Revelation 13 is the Antichrist. A grown up version of the little horn of Daniel 7. He receives his power from the dragon. In Revel. 12 we read that the dragon stood before the woman in order to devour the child as soon as He was born. This devourer is indeed Satan, but working through the pagan Roman power to which Herod was her puppet king. Thus the sea beast, the Antichrist, received her power from pagan Rome. Did such a transaction take place in political history? Indeed it does, for the power, the seat or throne, and the authority of pagan Rome was bequeathed to papal Rome. Even the title, pontiff, is of pagan Rome origin. As are many other of RCC dogmas and doctrines, including the observance of Sunday.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, brakelite.

brakelite said:
Retrobyter, greetings.
First, I agree that the antichrist is without law. Religious certainly, but I tend toward the belief that rather than being against Christ as many take it, 'antichrist' is more in place of..in the room of, Christ. A king yes, but one who has displaced the true Messiah from His kingly role.

You mentioned that Revelation is the last place to look for such a one. I disagree. Take note of the following scriptures and compare...

Exodus 39:1 ¶ And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the LORD commanded Moses.
2 And he made the ephod of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.


Note the colours. Blue, purple, scarlet, gold.

Now read the following....

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


Again, note the colours. Scarlet, purple, gold. What's missing? Blue. Why? What is the significance of the colour blue as it pertains to the sanctuary and the priests thereof?

Numbers 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.



.Retrobyter, further to my post above. I note that you believe, as does much of Christianty, that a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem is essential to fulfil the conditions prior to the second coming of Messiah. You correctly note that in context, temple, as mentioned by Paul in his letter to Thess., means quote: DWELLING of God. I do agree with this, however do not agree that any possible future temple is neccesary as a acondition to fulfil prophecy. No future temple will ever be the dwelling of God. God's dwelling today is in the individual believer, and corporately, the church. Jesus declared to Israel, your house, (not My house or God's house) but your house is left unto you desolate. One may call a future buidling if it ever arises, a temple or sanctuary, but it will always remain desolate, and it will never again be God's dwelling place.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, I understand that many believe this re the temple, but I think it a dangerous error. While waiting for a new temple, they see the antichrist as being far off. Same with the 7 years. Long time away....no urgency. The true antichrist however is already here, and has been in power since the 6th century. He leans over the back fence being the friendly neighbour, all the while ready to gobble you up for dinner. And you are looking to the horizon waiting for a terrifying enemy threatening your life. Watch out...you are about to be run over from behind.
Well, you may believe that "anti-" means "in the place of," if you wish, but that's not how it is used in this word. Consider again the verses that actually USE the word "antichristos" or "antichristoi"; here they are in context:

1 John 2:18-23
18 Little children, it is the last time (Greek: eschatee hoora = literally, the "last hour"): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV


1 John 4:1-3
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV


2 John 5-9
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
KJV


This "doctrine of Christ" is NOT talking about the teachings of the Messiah, that is, the Messiah's teachings; it's the teachings ABOUT the Messiah! Furthermore, being "antichrist" is NOT being "against the Christ" or "in the place of Christ"; it is being "against the TEACHINGS about the Messiah!"

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Yeshua` is the Messiah? He is anti-Messiah, who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son, that same person doesn't have the Father either!"

"Every attitude that confesses that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh is from God: And every attitude that doesn't confess that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh is not from God: and this is that attitude of anti-Messiah."

"Many deceptive people are come into the world-system, who don't confess that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh. This is a deceptive person and an anti-Messiah. ... Whosoever leads forward, and doesn't adhere to the teachings about the Messiah, doesn't have God. He who adheres to the teachings about the Messiah, has both the Father and the Son."


Regarding your comparison of Exodus 39:1-2 and Numbers 15:38-40 with Revelation 17:3-5, you have proposed a non-sequitur, that is, it doesn't necessarily follow that the comparison is legitimate. Think of a Venn diagram with two intersecting circles. Within the intersection, all you have are the four colors in common between the two sets; however, you've established no clear connection IN THE REST OF THE TEXT of the two sets of passages! Owning a taliyt (a Jewish prayer shawl) that has a tsittsit (tassel) on each of the four corners of the rectangular garment, I understand the "fringes" and the blue thread that is woven among each tsittsit of the taliyt. Think about it: What do the tassels on a Jewish prayer shawl have to do with the rich garments of "Babylon the Great" in Revelation 17?


Finally, a rebuilt Temple IS essential to the fulfillment of prophecy, particularly that of Yeshua` in Matthew 23:37-39:

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV


Verse 39 contains a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV


However, Matthew 23:39 FOLLOWS the first "Palm Sunday" of Matthew 21; therefore, the events of that day do NOT fulfill the prophecy that Yeshua` made in 23:39! Yeshua` alluded to this psalm in Matthew 21:42 when He quoted and used Psalm 118:22. And, the disciples of Yeshua` and the children quoting verse 25:

"Yhosha` na" is Hebrew for "(You)-save/rescue-us now" (as a request; "please?") and was transliterated into the Greek as "Hosanna." The problem was that ONLY the disciples and the children accepted Him and cried out to Him! The Jews who were IN CHARGE of the tribe of Y'hudah - the elders - did NOT accept Him as their Messiah - God's Choice to be their King! So, Yeshua` left their household DESOLATE (Daniel 9:27) UNTIL such time as they could say "Baruwkh haba' bshem YHWH." This is the Hebrew sentence that was translated as "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD." It literally means, "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH," "YHWH," of course, being the NAME of God. However, that was NEVER said by the elders of Y'hudah, right up to the moment that the Temple was destroyed.

Yeshua`s quote from Psalm 118:26 implies that the second half of the verse must also be fulfilled: "We have blessed you out of the house of the LORD!" "Beerakhnuwkhem mibeeyt YHWH," which literally means "We-have-blessed-you from-house of-YHWH." Since this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled, there must first BE a "house of YHWH." Therefore, it must be rebuilt.

You're right that it never will be "God's dwelling place," but then, NEITHER WAS SOLOMON'S TEMPLE!

2 Chronicles 6:13-21
13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven,
14 And said, O Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:
15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.
16 Now therefore, O Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.
17 Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee:
20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place.
21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive.
KJV


It is His house of PRAYER; not His dwelling place! However, the Temple MUST be rebuilt.
 

Floyd

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Feb 28, 2014
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Retrobyter said:
Shabbat shalom, brakelite.


Well, you may believe that "anti-" means "in the place of," if you wish, but that's not how it is used in this word. Consider again the verses that actually USE the word "antichristos" or "antichristoi"; here they are in context:

1 John 2:18-23
18 Little children, it is the last time (Greek: eschatee hoora = literally, the "last hour"): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV


1 John 4:1-3
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV


2 John 5-9
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
KJV


This "doctrine of Christ" is NOT talking about the teachings of the Messiah, that is, the Messiah's teachings; it's the teachings ABOUT the Messiah! Furthermore, being "antichrist" is NOT being "against the Christ" or "in the place of Christ"; it is being "against the TEACHINGS about the Messiah!"

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Yeshua` is the Messiah? He is anti-Messiah, who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son, that same person doesn't have the Father either!"

"Every attitude that confesses that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh is from God: And every attitude that doesn't confess that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh is not from God: and this is that attitude of anti-Messiah."

"Many deceptive people are come into the world-system, who don't confess that Yeshua` the Messiah is come in the flesh. This is a deceptive person and an anti-Messiah. ... Whosoever leads forward, and doesn't adhere to the teachings about the Messiah, doesn't have God. He who adheres to the teachings about the Messiah, has both the Father and the Son."


Regarding your comparison of Exodus 39:1-2 and Numbers 15:38-40 with Revelation 17:3-5, you have proposed a non-sequitur, that is, it doesn't necessarily follow that the comparison is legitimate. Think of a Venn diagram with two intersecting circles. Within the intersection, all you have are the four colors in common between the two sets; however, you've established no clear connection IN THE REST OF THE TEXT of the two sets of passages! Owning a taliyt (a Jewish prayer shawl) that has a tsittsit (tassel) on each of the four corners of the rectangular garment, I understand the "fringes" and the blue thread that is woven among each tsittsit of the taliyt. Think about it: What do the tassels on a Jewish prayer shawl have to do with the rich garments of "Babylon the Great" in Revelation 17?


Finally, a rebuilt Temple IS essential to the fulfillment of prophecy, particularly that of Yeshua` in Matthew 23:37-39:

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV


Verse 39 contains a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV


However, Matthew 23:39 FOLLOWS the first "Palm Sunday" of Matthew 21; therefore, the events of that day do NOT fulfill the prophecy that Yeshua` made in 23:39! Yeshua` alluded to this psalm in Matthew 21:42 when He quoted and used Psalm 118:22. And, the disciples of Yeshua` and the children quoting verse 25:

"Yhosha` na" is Hebrew for "(You)-save/rescue-us now" (as a request; "please?") and was transliterated into the Greek as "Hosanna." The problem was that ONLY the disciples and the children accepted Him and cried out to Him! The Jews who were IN CHARGE of the tribe of Y'hudah - the elders - did NOT accept Him as their Messiah - God's Choice to be their King! So, Yeshua` left their household DESOLATE (Daniel 9:27) UNTIL such time as they could say "Baruwkh haba' bshem YHWH." This is the Hebrew sentence that was translated as "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD." It literally means, "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH," "YHWH," of course, being the NAME of God. However, that was NEVER said by the elders of Y'hudah, right up to the moment that the Temple was destroyed.

Yeshua`s quote from Psalm 118:26 implies that the second half of the verse must also be fulfilled: "We have blessed you out of the house of the LORD!" "Beerakhnuwkhem mibeeyt YHWH," which literally means "We-have-blessed-you from-house of-YHWH." Since this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled, there must first BE a "house of YHWH." Therefore, it must be rebuilt.

You're right that it never will be "God's dwelling place," but then, NEITHER WAS SOLOMON'S TEMPLE!

2 Chronicles 6:13-21
13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven,
14 And said, O Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:
15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.
16 Now therefore, O Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.
17 Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee:
20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place.
21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive.
KJV


It is His house of PRAYER; not His dwelling place! However, the Temple MUST be rebuilt.
IMO; there are yet to be two temples.
1) the Trib. temple.
2) the Millennial Temple ( which will be 1/7th bigger than Solomon's).
Floyd: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, Floyd.

Floyd said:
IMO; there are yet to be two temples.
1) the Trib. temple.
2) the Millennial Temple ( which will be 1/7th bigger than Solomon's).
Floyd: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk
Right. That's very possible. The first Temple (in the "trib") will be a human attempt by Zionists, and even the Orthodox Jews recognize that the Messiah is the One to construct the Temple for the Millennium.
 

shturt678

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Thank you folks for caring!

There isn't any 3rd future physical "temple" ieron that is to be built, ie, the "sanctuary" naos is being built in men's hearts today. IIThess.2:4, "sanctuary." The antichristian's authority resides in one's heart today for those that lack an agape for the truth which I don't have - truth that is, IIThess.2:10b.

Old Jack's opinion
 
B

brakelite

Guest
The concept of an earthly millenium for a 1000 years, whether figurative or literal, is flawed. It is based on a false premise that when Jesus returns, He sets up a reign on the earth. This is incorrect. When He comes He takes His bride back to where He came from. He comes to rescue His people from imminent destruction by the powers of darkness ands takes them home. Everything else on the entire planet is utterly wasted from the plahgues, the earthquakes etc., and remains in a state of lifeless chaoltic emptiness for the 1000 years (it is during this time that Satan is bound by the circumstances he is in in having no-one to tempt because all are either in heaven, or dead) while we are in heaven, reigning with Christ awaiting the new heavens and the new earth which shall be recreated after the final executive judgment at the end of the millenium. The fire that rains down from heaven at that time destroying the wicked also destroys everything else , cleansing the earth of all pollution and of all of mans' works and wickedness in preperation for eternal residence on a newly formed planet. The earth becomes the Capital of the universe. Sin is destroyed. Satan and his angels are destroyed. All the wicked are destroyed. There is nothing left to remind anyone of the evil history of the past 6000 years except the nail scarred hands of our Savior.

Isaiah 24:1 ¶ Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.


Jeremiah 25:26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.
28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 ¶ Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
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brakelite said:
The concept of an earthly millenium for a 1000 years, whether figurative or literal, is flawed. It is based on a false premise that when Jesus returns, He sets up a reign on the earth. This is incorrect. When He comes He takes His bride back to where He came from. He comes to rescue His people from imminent destruction by the powers of darkness ands takes them home. Everything else on the entire planet is utterly wasted from the plahgues, the earthquakes etc., and remains in a state of lifeless chaoltic emptiness for the 1000 years (it is during this time that Satan is bound
First and foremost thank you for caring!

Satan was personally bound at the Cross.



by the circumstances he is in in having no-one to tempt because all are either in heaven, or dead) while we are in heaven, reigning with Christ awaiting the new heavens and the new earth which shall be recreated after the final executive judgment at the end of the millenium. The fire that rains down from heaven at that time destroying the wicked also destroys everything else , cleansing the earth of all pollution and of all of mans' works and wickedness in preperation for eternal residence on a newly formed planet. The earth becomes the Capital of the universe. Sin is destroyed. Satan and his angels are destroyed. All the wicked are destroyed. There is nothing left to remind anyone of the evil history of the past 6000 years except the nail scarred hands of our Savior.

Isaiah 24:1 ¶ Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.


Jeremiah 25:26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.
28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 ¶ Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
Old Jack
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
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shturt678 said:
Thank you folks for caring!

There isn't any 3rd future physical "temple" ieron that is to be built, ie, the "sanctuary" naos is being built in men's hearts today. IIThess.2:4, "sanctuary." The antichristian's authority resides in one's heart today for those that lack an agape for the truth which I don't have - truth that is, IIThess.2:10b.

Old Jack's opinion
Hi Jack; we have to agree to disagree.
Of course, you are wrong!
Kidding!
Maybe!
Floyd. www.revelationsmessage.co.uk


Ditto brakelight!
 

shturt678

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Feb 9, 2013
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Floyd said:
Hi Jack; we have to agree to disagree.
Of course, you are wrong!
Kidding!
Maybe!
Floyd. www.revelationsmessage.co.uk


Ditto brakelight!
Thank you for your response and caring!

Let's backpeddle to only baby food, eg, IIThess.2:3. You and I must agree to agree that "the man" must be a sequence of men in history, correct? Then moving up a notch to a little bit of solid food, ie, v.4, "he seats himself in the 'Sanctuary' (naos) of God" during each reign, correct? Thus we have the real "Antichrist" stepping forward during the time that Satan in his person is bound since the Cross (Rev.12:7, etc.) till Rev.20:7, right around the corner.

Check your sanctuary within, and if you detect him - the Antichrist, not Satan, let me and we'll oust him out in the name of the God-man Jesus Christ. Watch, you'll see him take off big time!

Old ousting Jack
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
30
28
shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response and caring!

Let's backpeddle to only baby food, eg, IIThess.2:3. You and I must agree to agree that "the man" must be a sequence of men in history, correct? Then moving up a notch to a little bit of solid food, ie, v.4, "he seats himself in the 'Sanctuary' (naos) of God" during each reign, correct? Thus we have the real "Antichrist" stepping forward during the time that Satan in his person is bound since the Cross (Rev.12:7, etc.) till Rev.20:7, right around the corner.

Check your sanctuary within, and if you detect him - the Antichrist, not Satan, let me and we'll oust him out in the name of the God-man Jesus Christ. Watch, you'll see him take off big time!

Old ousting Jack

[SIZE=14pt]Jack; Considerable detail is given in Chapter 13 of Revelation of the first and second 'Beasts' emergence, the Satanic marking of those on earth who will 'worship the Beast,' (some say Israel only,) and also clues re. the name of the Beast/Anti-Christ. Mystery still surrounds much of what Scripture says here, but, if the current 'Arab Spring' is linked to these events, we may be seeing the emergence of the 'First Beast!' The Nations involved currently are of Scripture listing, so at the very least these events may be the 'beginning of birth pangs' as mentioned by Jesus in Matt. 24:8.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]If Satan is bound as you surmise, then his oversight of the emerging "beasts" must have happened before; or; will after the Millennial! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]If the above premise is right, then the current turmoil in Egypt may be the beginning of the first "beast", morphing into the second beast of verses 3 & 4. The second is "religious", as opposed to the first which is "political". It must be said here that there is much division of opinion on what is actually happening at present in the Mediterranean area. This means that the above thoughts are not generally accepted.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The very least that knowledgeable, keen and curious Christians should do, who are interested in what is going to happen from Bible prophecy, is to prayerfully watch events, at the very least a formation is taking place at present![/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]V.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]he [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]wild beast [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]coming up out of the sea, having (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]ten horns[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] seven heads,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and on his horns[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] ten crowns, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and upon his heads (d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]names of blasphemy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet as the feet of a bear its mouth as a lion’s[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mouth, and the (e)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]dragon[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] gave it [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]this power, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]also [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]its throne, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great authority.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"He;"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] this is translated in AV as "I." [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]However, as this verse in the original undivided text follows V.17 of Chapter 12, the reference is almost[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] certainly to Satan. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (Chapters and verses have only been inserted into the Bible in recent times.) Therefore [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Satan oversees (as the god of this world) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]as he stands on the edge of the sea the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]rising of the beast.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Sea is often used in Scripture as a metaphor for peoples / nations, so here "he," watched the rising of a particular grouping of peoples, or personage, or both! Satan oversees this birth, whereas [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Almighty[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]God oversaw the birth of Christ from Israel (12:1-5.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](b) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Wild beast;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]this is the first reference in Scripture to such since Daniel (B.C. 495.) In his day, the nation of Israel was in exile in Babylon from his youth for [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]70 years[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and he was a man (Prophet) much loved by God (Dan. 9:23,) (Dan. 10:19.) Daniel was given the ability to interpret dreams, in the Power and Permit of Almighty God, to which he always paid homage and witness to His power; and did so on a number of occasions in his early captivity. One of those dreams much troubled Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2) and concerned the image of a man. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Daniel, after witnessing to the source of the dream (Dan. 2:28)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]gave its meaning (Dan. 2:29-45.) The man's image represented 4 kingdoms.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]1) The head of gold represented Babylonian empire, symbol [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]LION[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]B.C. 626 -539.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]2) The chest and arms of silver, Medo - Persia,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] BEAR [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]B.C. 539 - 330.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]3) Belly and thighs of bronze, Greek empire, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]LEOPARD[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]B.C. 330 - 63.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]4) Legs of iron, Roman Empire, Eagle? (Terrifying beast) B.C. 63 - [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]to: (A.D. 70 as regards Israel!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]* Note: The feet are discussed in verse 8 notes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The important principle in the above for the purpose of the Almighty, and the record made by the Holy Spirit in the Bible, is not the kingdoms as such, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]but the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] fact that they impinge on ISRAEL when the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]history of Israel is current (defined as "Ammi", My people)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as opposed to the history of mankind generally. Such is the present success of Satan, that mankind is blinded to the importance of the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Divine Clock regarding Israel.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Israel is special to God, and are called such on many occasions in Scripture, because [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]God chose Abraham, because He knew his heart, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and that he would be prepared to stand against the Satanic idolatry around him, Abraham responded[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]in faith,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]all the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] promises of God in the Old Testament relate to Abraham,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and subsequently Israel.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Because of this fact,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] only events affecting Israel [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in human history, and the purposes of God[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] are the subject of prophecy and record in the Bible. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] For example; in item 4) above, the Roman Empire ceased to be important in the Divine Plan at A.D. 70,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] BECAUSE ISRAEL HAD BECOME "LO-AMMI," (NOT MY PEOPLE) (HOSEA 1:9,) and that was as a consequence of the rejection of Christ as their Messiah![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]At some stage in the future, Jewish history as defined above will re-commence. There is however only a short time left in the Divine prophetic time scale,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as laid out to Daniel in Dan. 9:27; which gives only 7 more years of that prophecy to run. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In between Dan. 9:26 and V.27, already approximately 1,930 years have elapsed. These however are not Jewish years of 360 days, but a mixture of Julian and Gregorian, which allows for lost and or gained time counting. In short it is probably not possible to know the exact Jewish year which we are now in, although some claim to know (i.e. on the 1/10/00, the Jewish new year of 5,761 begins according to Jewish "Rabbinical wisdom.") [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Even if it was known, it is irrelevant, as only God the Father knows the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]time when the Jewish nation will become[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "[/SIZE]AMMI" (MY PEOPLE,) [SIZE=12pt]again, (Hos. 2:23,) (Zech. 13:9,)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](Rom. 9:26,) (1Peter 2:10.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In Dan. 9:27 the statement of [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"a covenant," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]gives the probable clue as to commencement of the final 7 years of the prophecy,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as that "covenant," will be for peace for Israel.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] When they think they have "peace and safety;" Satan in the guise of the beast in V.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]will strike [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Ezk. 38:14,) (1Thess. 5:3,)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] for the last time against Israel, (prior to the Millennial Reign); "in the midst of the week,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]i.e. half way through the 7 year period described above. [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]However, turning now to the beast described in V.1 and V.2; put into its context in chapter 13 of Revelation, and bearing in mind the above, a few comments can be made with some certainty.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1) The symbols of empires, Leopard, Lion, Bear, are repeated from earlier empires, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]affecting Israel as a nation.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] I.e. there have been other empires in that area since, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]but Israel was not a Nation in their land, under Jehovah; when their, prophetic progress is current![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]2) Since 1948 Israel has officially been recognised as a nation (by the then League of Nations, now the U.N.) That was the first time since A.D. 70, and the Jews kept their unique identity wherever they were scattered, although very few know their tribe of origin,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] but their Jehovah God does![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]3) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The fact that they are now a Nation [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in the eyes of the world,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]probably augers the re-commencement of their Divine History, i.e. the last 7 years of Dan. 9, in the near future.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]4)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The identities of the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Leopard[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], Lion[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Bear [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]are known from Dan. 2, and this last "beast" is certainly in the prophetic geographical area,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and in characteristics shows an amalgam of these and the previous Roman Empire. These empires covered and overlapped each other, and in the crossroads to Asia, Africa and Europe in what was known as[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Palestine, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Israel is central.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]The yet future empire (beast) described in[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] this chapter has Israel at its focal point, and is further described in Dan. 2:41-44.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]5) The specific nations involved are probably given in[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Ezk. 32, 38, and Psm 83, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]all of which fit the above criterion, and are in the "prophetic area,"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] i.e. the known world of Old Testament prophecy,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and directly affecting the chosen people, Israel.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]6) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The animal symbols given probably show characteristics of this beast, again referring to Daniel 2:29-45. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Leopard;" speed,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Alexander's empire from Macedonia to the Indus river, was conquered and formed in 8 years! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Bear;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Medo-Persia, present day Persia (Iran,) Iraq, Caucuses peoples, and half of Turkey. These may be the "feet," of the beast, they bear the weight. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Lion;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]the Babylonian Empire, with the, now defunct ancient city of Babylon at the centre, is present day Iraq, of recent infamous history. This is possibly the head/ mouth of the beast, although there is much difference of opinion on this; see Chapter 18.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] - To summarise; this beast will form very quickly, "Leopard."[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]It will also consist of part of ancient and modern Greece,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] part now Turkey, (the area of the 7 churches. "Ekkiesia".)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] - Its extent will be roughly the area of the Medo-Persia Empire, "Bear."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] - Its head/ mouth will possibly be Babylon -[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]"Lion." (As mentioned this disputed idea may be as Chapter 18, but many think Babylon is to be rebuilt. At present, 2014 this is not our view!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](c) "Ten horns and seven heads;" these are well described in Dan. 7:7-8, and Dan. 7:19-28. This end time empire Confederation (beast) will probably be of the nations described above. The horns are ten kings (Dan. 7:24,) three will be replaced by one who is more powerful (V.20.) They are located in 7 countries (or areas) of the above mix.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“Names of blasphemy;" this fact underlines him whose power reigns in this empire; Satan.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] His throne (power base) will be in [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Pergamum (ancient Greece) (Rev. 2:13,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](i.e. in present day Turkey,) and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]his whole effort will be to attempt to annihilate Israel with all the power available to him[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The "names of blasphemy," will show in part in his attempt to persuade the people of Israel and the world [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]that he is God,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and he will show much power and wonders to that end, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]his is the unforgivable sin (Matt. 12:31) and those that follow him appear to suffer the same fate. See note [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]14:1(c.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](e) Satanic beyond all previous, with Satan's[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]power[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and authority beyond description. As we know from Rev. 12:12 Satan knows his time is short, and he will condense the evil and terror.[/SIZE]


Jack:The above summarises the effort of Satan to build quickly his power groups for the purpose of opposing Almighty God's Plans for Israel and the world's populations that survive the Great Tribulation (not forgetting that two thirds will die in that period)!

If as you and others postulate, Satan was "bound" at the Cross; he would not be able to "oversee" the emergence of the forces he will use prior to Christ's second Advent.

If this does not help you to re-examine your position; I can say little else.

Regards; Floyd.
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
970
23
0
82
South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
Floyd said:
Jack; Considerable detail is given in Chapter 13 of Revelation of the first and second 'Beasts' emergence, the Satanic marking of those on earth who will 'worship the Beast,' (some say Israel only,) and also clues re. the name of the Beast/Anti-Christ. Mystery still surrounds much of what Scripture says here, but, if the current 'Arab Spring' is linked to these events, we may be seeing the emergence of the 'First Beast!' The Nations involved currently are of Scripture listing, so at the very least these events may be the 'beginning of birth pangs' as mentioned by Jesus in Matt. 24:8.


If Satan is bound as you surmise, then his oversight of the emerging "beasts" must have happened before; or; will after the Millennial!
[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Thank you for your response and rarely do I meet someone that cares as much as you! BTW WE ARE NEARING THE END OF THE "MILLENNIAL." [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Especially in Revelation, missing the interpreation of a previous chapter, eg, Rev. chapter 12, results in really missing the interpreation in following chapters, eg, Rev.13:1-10 & 11-18 regarding both beasts.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Rev.12:5, "son, a male, who is abut to shepherd all the heaten with an iron rod." It's the God-man Christ who rules the heathen with a rod of iron from the throne of omnipotence of course. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Rev.12:7, etc., "occurred battle in the heaven: Michael and his angels to battle with the dragon (Satan personally).... v.9 ....And he was thrown, the dragon...thrown was he to the earth, and his angels with him were thrown." This is the effect and result of the God-man Christ's ENTRONEMENT AND EXALTATION AT THE CROSS. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Satan was personally bound at the Cross and must work through the beasts of Rev.13, and the seductive whore, viz. Rev.20:2, etc - vision in sync with Rev.12 regarding the 'binding' of Satan.[/SIZE]



If the above premise is right, then the current turmoil in Egypt may be the beginning of the first "beast", morphing into the second beast of verses 3 & 4. The second is "religious", as opposed to the first which is "political". It must be said here that there is much division of opinion on what is actually happening at present in the Mediterranean area. This means that the above thoughts are not generally accepted.

The very least that knowledgeable, keen and curious Christians should do, who are interested in what is going to happen from Bible prophecy, is to prayerfully watch events, at the very least a formation is taking place at present!
Missing Rev.1:1, "to show.....he signified" will result in viewing the visions literally, and not viewing as signified composites (symboiic), eg, "Egypt" is a significant "effect" of God's PRELIMINARY JUDGMENTS ONGOING TODAY, We need to stay focused on the "cause," wouldn't you agree?



[SIZE=14pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]he [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]wild beast [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]coming up out of the sea, having (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]ten horns[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] seven heads,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and on his horns[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] ten crowns, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and upon his heads (d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]names of blasphemy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet as the feet of a bear its mouth as a lion’s[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mouth, and the (e)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]dragon[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] gave it [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]this power, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]also [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]its throne, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great authority.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"He;"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] this is translated in AV as "I." [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]However, as this verse in the original undivided text follows V.17 of Chapter 12, the reference is almost[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] certainly to Satan. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (Chapters and verses have only been inserted into the Bible in recent times.) Therefore [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Satan oversees (as the god of this world) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]as he stands on the edge of the sea the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]rising of the beast.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Sea is often used in Scripture as a metaphor for peoples / nations, so here "he," watched the rising of a particular grouping of peoples, or personage, or both! Satan oversees this birth, whereas [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Almighty[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]God oversaw the birth of Christ from Israel (12:1-5.)[/SIZE]

Rev.13:1, "The sea...the earth" are simply expressions that are equivalent to the whole world. Certainly not personally Satan, but are Satan's powerful agents, ie, these brutes do not rise on their own initiative.

[SIZE=12pt]
[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]( B) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]"Wild beast;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]this is the first reference in Scripture to such since Daniel (B.C. 495.) In his day, the nation of Israel was in exile in Babylon from his youth for [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]70 years[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and he was a man (Prophet) much loved by God (Dan. 9:23,) (Dan. 10:19.) Daniel was given the ability to interpret dreams, in the Power and Permit of Almighty God, to which he always paid homage and witness to His power; and did so on a number of occasions in his early captivity. One of those dreams much troubled Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2) and concerned the image of a man. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Daniel, after witnessing to the source of the dream (Dan. 2:28)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]gave its meaning (Dan. 2:29-45.) The man's image represented 4 kingdoms.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]1) The head of gold represented Babylonian empire, symbol [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]LION[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]B.C. 626 -539.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]2) The chest and arms of silver, Medo - Persia,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] BEAR [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]B.C. 539 - 330.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]3) Belly and thighs of bronze, Greek empire, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]LEOPARD[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]B.C. 330 - 63.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]4) Legs of iron, Roman Empire, Eagle? (Terrifying beast) B.C. 63 - [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]to: (A.D. 70 as regards Israel!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]* Note: The feet are discussed in verse 8 notes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The important principle in the above for the purpose of the Almighty, and the record made by the Holy Spirit in the Bible, is not the kingdoms as such, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]but the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] fact that they impinge on ISRAEL when the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]history of Israel is current (defined as "Ammi", My people)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as opposed to the history of mankind generally. Such is the present success of Satan, that mankind is blinded to the importance of the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Divine Clock regarding Israel.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Israel is special to God, and are called such on many occasions in Scripture, because [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]God chose Abraham, because He knew his heart, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and that he would be prepared to stand against the Satanic idolatry around him, Abraham responded[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]in faith,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]all the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] promises of God in the Old Testament relate to Abraham,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and subsequently Israel.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Because of this fact,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] only events affecting Israel [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in human history, and the purposes of God[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] are the subject of prophecy and record in the Bible. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] For example; in item 4) above, the Roman Empire ceased to be important in the Divine Plan at A.D. 70,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] BECAUSE ISRAEL HAD BECOME "LO-AMMI," (NOT MY PEOPLE) (HOSEA 1:9,) and that was as a consequence of the rejection of Christ as their Messiah![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]At some stage in the future, Jewish history as defined above will re-commence. There is however only a short time left in the Divine prophetic time scale,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as laid out to Daniel in Dan. 9:27; which gives only 7 more years of that prophecy to run. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In between Dan. 9:26 and V.27, already approximately 1,930 years have elapsed. These however are not Jewish years of 360 days, but a mixture of Julian and Gregorian, which allows for lost and or gained time counting. In short it is probably not possible to know the exact Jewish year which we are now in, although some claim to know (i.e. on the 1/10/00, the Jewish new year of 5,761 begins according to Jewish "Rabbinical wisdom.") [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Even if it was known, it is irrelevant, as only God the Father knows the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]time when the Jewish nation will become[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "[/SIZE]AMMI" (MY PEOPLE,) [SIZE=12pt]again, (Hos. 2:23,) (Zech. 13:9,)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](Rom. 9:26,) (1Peter 2:10.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In Dan. 9:27 the statement of [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"a covenant," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]gives the probable clue as to commencement of the final 7 years of the prophecy,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as that "covenant," will be for peace for Israel.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] When they think they have "peace and safety;" Satan in the guise of the beast in V.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]will strike [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Ezk. 38:14,) (1Thess. 5:3,)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] for the last time against Israel, (prior to the Millennial Reign); "in the midst of the week,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]i.e. half way through the 7 year period described above. [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]However, turning now to the beast described in V.1 and V.2; put into its context in chapter 13 of Revelation, and bearing in mind the above, a few comments can be made with some certainty.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1) The symbols of empires, Leopard, Lion, Bear, are repeated from earlier empires, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]affecting Israel as a nation.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] I.e. there have been other empires in that area since, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]but Israel was not a Nation in their land, under Jehovah; when their, prophetic progress is current![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]2) Since 1948 Israel has officially been recognised as a nation (by the then League of Nations, now the U.N.) That was the first time since A.D. 70, and the Jews kept their unique identity wherever they were scattered, although very few know their tribe of origin,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] but their Jehovah God does![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]3) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The fact that they are now a Nation [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in the eyes of the world,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]probably augers the re-commencement of their Divine History, i.e. the last 7 years of Dan. 9, in the near future.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]4)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The identities of the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Leopard[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], Lion[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Bear [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]are known from Dan. 2, and this last "beast" is certainly in the prophetic geographical area,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and in characteristics shows an amalgam of these and the previous Roman Empire. These empires covered and overlapped each other, and in the crossroads to Asia, Africa and Europe in what was known as[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Palestine, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Israel is central.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]The yet future empire (beast) described in[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] this chapter has Israel at its focal point, and is further described in Dan. 2:41-44.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]5) The specific nations involved are probably given in[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Ezk. 32, 38, and Psm 83, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]all of which fit the above criterion, and are in the "prophetic area,"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] i.e. the known world of Old Testament prophecy,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and directly affecting the chosen people, Israel.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]6) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The animal symbols given probably show characteristics of this beast, again referring to Daniel 2:29-45. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Leopard;" speed,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Alexander's empire from Macedonia to the Indus river, was conquered and formed in 8 years! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Bear;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Medo-Persia, present day Persia (Iran,) Iraq, Caucuses peoples, and half of Turkey. These may be the "feet," of the beast, they bear the weight. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Lion;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]the Babylonian Empire, with the, now defunct ancient city of Babylon at the centre, is present day Iraq, of recent infamous history. This is possibly the head/ mouth of the beast, although there is much difference of opinion on this; see Chapter 18.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] - To summarise; this beast will form very quickly, "Leopard."[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]It will also consist of part of ancient and modern Greece,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] part now Turkey, (the area of the 7 churches. "Ekkiesia".)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] - Its extent will be roughly the area of the Medo-Persia Empire, "Bear."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] - Its head/ mouth will possibly be Babylon -[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]"Lion." (As mentioned this disputed idea may be as Chapter 18, but many think Babylon is to be rebuilt. At present, 2014 this is not our view!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](c) "Ten horns and seven heads;" these are well described in Dan. 7:7-8, and Dan. 7:19-28. This end time empire Confederation (beast) will probably be of the nations described above. The horns are ten kings (Dan. 7:24,) three will be replaced by one who is more powerful (V.20.) They are located in 7 countries (or areas) of the above mix.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“Names of blasphemy;" this fact underlines him whose power reigns in this empire; Satan.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] His throne (power base) will be in [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Pergamum (ancient Greece) (Rev. 2:13,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](i.e. in present day Turkey,) and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]his whole effort will be to attempt to annihilate Israel with all the power available to him[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The "names of blasphemy," will show in part in his attempt to persuade the people of Israel and the world [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]that he is God,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and he will show much power and wonders to that end, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]his is the unforgivable sin (Matt. 12:31) and those that follow him appear to suffer the same fate. See note [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]14:1(c.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](e) Satanic beyond all previous, with Satan's[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]power[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and authority beyond description. As we know from Rev. 12:12 Satan knows his time is short, and he will condense the evil and terror.[/SIZE]


Jack:The above summarises the effort of Satan to build quickly his power groups for the purpose of opposing Almighty God's Plans for Israel and the world's populations that survive the Great Tribulation (not forgetting that two thirds will die in that period)!

If as you and others postulate, Satan was "bound" at the Cross; he would not be able to "oversee" the emergence of the forces he will use prior to Christ's second Advent.

If this does not help you to re-examine your position; I can say little else.

Regards; Floyd.

Old Jack's opinion, and thank you again!
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
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Floyd said:
[SIZE=12pt]1) The head of gold represented Babylonian empire, symbol [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]LION[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]B.C. 626 -539.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]2) The chest and arms of silver, Medo - Persia,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] BEAR [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]B.C. 539 - 330.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]3) Belly and thighs of bronze, Greek empire, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]LEOPARD[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]B.C. 330 - 63.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]4) Legs of iron, Roman Empire, Eagle? (Terrifying beast) B.C. 63 - [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]to: (A.D. 70 as regards Israel!)[/SIZE]
Hi Floyd,

If the above were true, then it would contradict the FIVE world empires outlined in Daniel 2:45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.

As such your presentation presumes that the Daniel 2 FIVE = Daniel 7 FOUR, but we should all know that FIVE ≠ FOUR.


The TRUTH of Scripture and History provides the following:

1. Gold, Babylonain
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"
-- Lion
-- Bear
-- Leopard (actually a "Tiger")
-- "dreadful"
6. Stone, Millennial
7. Eternity, Heaven


With Best Regards,
DD
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
30
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DaDad said:
Hi Floyd,

If the above were true, then it would contradict the FIVE world empires outlined in Daniel 2:45, Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.

As such your presentation presumes that the Daniel 2 FIVE = Daniel 7 FOUR, but we should all know that FIVE ≠ FOUR.


The TRUTH of Scripture and History provides the following:

1. Gold, Babylonain
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
5. Clay, "divided"
-- Lion
-- Bear
-- Leopard (actually a "Tiger")
-- "dreadful"
6. Stone, Millennial
7. Eternity, Heaven


With Best Regards,
DD
Hi DD.
The fifth in the above idea is yet/yet to be in formation.
I would not presume to be firm on any of this thinking; only obsessively interested since first reading it many years ago.
I am firm on Daniel's comment that the "dream and interpretation is sure"; his words to Neb.
I feel sure that modern Empires cannot be included in these calculations, as IMO only the "prophetic area" can be viewed; and that only when Israel is "Ammi"!
I look forward with anticipation to what may be revealed in these times we live in; as I feel sure much will get clearer!
Regards, Floyd.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
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Shalom, brakelite.

brakelite said:
The concept of an earthly millenium for a 1000 years, whether figurative or literal, is flawed. It is based on a false premise that when Jesus returns, He sets up a reign on the earth. This is incorrect. When He comes He takes His bride back to where He came from. He comes to rescue His people from imminent destruction by the powers of darkness ands takes them home. Everything else on the entire planet is utterly wasted from the plagues, the earthquakes etc., and remains in a state of lifeless chaoltic emptiness for the 1000 years (it is during this time that Satan is bound by the circumstances he is in in having no-one to tempt because all are either in heaven, or dead) while we are in heaven, reigning with Christ awaiting the new heavens and the new earth which shall be recreated after the final executive judgment at the end of the millenium. The fire that rains down from heaven at that time destroying the wicked also destroys everything else , cleansing the earth of all pollution and of all of mans' works and wickedness in preperation for eternal residence on a newly formed planet. The earth becomes the Capital of the universe. Sin is destroyed. Satan and his angels are destroyed. All the wicked are destroyed. There is nothing left to remind anyone of the evil history of the past 6000 years except the nail scarred hands of our Savior.

Isaiah 24:1 ¶ Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.


Jeremiah 25:26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.
28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 ¶ Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
Time to put on the brake lights! The Scriptures that you have quoted are NOT universal statements! They were specifically for those times in which they were written! For instance, Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah), the "Weeping Prophet," was the prophet who personally SAW the captivity occur when Y'hudah (Judah) was taken captive to Bavel (Babylon)! He WITNESSED the destruction and SAW their God (and our God), YHWH (translated "the LORD"), turn them over for destruction and captivity!

One of the most difficult things for Christians who have not formally studied Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) and Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) is to understand that "earth" does NOT always mean the whole planet! Most often, it should be rendered as "Land," referring specifically to the "Land of Isra'el." Then, secondly, it may be talking about all the land both in Isra'el and those nations surrounding Isra'el! The point is that this is a JEWISH book written by JEWISH people to JEWISH people! Particular clues as to WHICH "land" the human author was intending is often found in the NAMES that are recorded in those works! For instance, in Jeremiah 25:26, the name "Sheshach" should have been a clue for you!

I would also advise you to find a translation of the Bible that is closer to the meaning of the words. Don't look for something that tickles the ears; that is, makes you go, "Ooooh! Cool! I've never seen THAT before!" Generally speaking and as a rule of thumb, look for a version that sounds NATURAL to your ears. The simpler the words, the more profound the message. This is one reason why the KJV has been such a good version for so long. The NIV (New International Version) or the CJB (the Complete Jewish Bible) are good versions as well; however, the NIV doesn't have nearly the Jewish background emphasis that the CJB does, although the CJB may have too much of a particular theological point of view embedded within its translation. There are gives and takes on EVERY English version of the Bible you may find, but if you find one that sounds close to the way you normally talk, you will have found a better version for you. Also, you need to find a version that gives an appropriate emphasis on WHO wrote the book (from a human perspective) and to WHOM did he write!

Always be sure to CHECK THE CONTEXT of the passage you are quoting! A single verse or even a long chapter yanked out of context can leave a person baffled about what the author is writing. Here's a broader context of Jeremiah 25:26-33:

Jeremiah 25:1-33
25:1 This is the word that came to Yirmeyahu concerning all the people of Y’hudah in the fourth year of Y’hoyakim the son of Yoshiyahu, king of Y’hudah; this was also the first year of N’vukhadretzar king of Bavel. 2 Yirmeyahu the prophet proclaimed it before all the people of Y’hudah and all the inhabitants of Yerushalayim: 3 “For twenty-three years, since the thirteenth year of Yoshiyahu the son of Amon, king of Y’hudah, until today, the word of Adonai has come to me; and I have proclaimed it to you on numerous occasions; but you haven’t listened. 4 Moreover, Adonai sent you all his servants the prophets — again, on numerous occasions — but you didn’t listen or pay attention. 5 The message was always: ‘Every one of you, turn back from his evil way, from the evil of your actions. Then you will live in the land Adonai gave you and your ancestors forever and ever. 6 Don’t follow other gods by serving and worshipping them. “Don’t provoke my anger with things your own hands have made; then I will do you no harm. 7 But you wouldn’t listen to me,” says Adonai, “so that you could provoke me with the products of your hands, to your own harm.”

8 “Therefore, here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot says: ‘Because you haven’t paid attention to what I’ve been saying, 9 I’m going to send for all the families of the north,’ says Adonai, ‘and for my servant N’vukhadretzar the king of Bavel, and bring them against this land, against its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations. I will completely destroy them, making them an object of horror and ridicule, a perpetual ruin. 10 Moreover, I will silence among them the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bridegroom and bride, the grinding of millstones and the light of lamps. 11 This entire land will become a ruin, a waste; and these nations will serve the king of Bavel for seventy years. 12 But when the seventy years are over, I will punish the king of Bavel and that nation for their sin,’ says Adonai, ‘and I will turn the land of the Kasdim into everlasting ruins. 13 I will inflict on that land all my words that I have decreed against it, everything written in this book, in which Yirmeyahu has prophesied against all the nations. 14 For they too will become slaves to many nations and to powerful kings; I will pay them back according to their deeds and the work of their own hands.’
15 “For here is what Adonai the God of Isra’el says to me: ‘Take this cup of the wine of fury from my hand, and make all the nations where I am sending you drink it. 16 They will drink, stagger to and fro and behave like crazy people because of the sword that I will send among them.’”
17 Then I took the cup from Adonai’s hand and made all the nations drink, where Adonai had sent me — 18 Yerushalayim and the cities of Y’hudah, along with their kings and leaders, to make them a ruin and an object of horror, ridicule and cursing, as it is today; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, with his servants and leaders and all his people, both native 20 and foreign; all the kings of the land of ‘Utz; all the kings of the land of the P’lishtim, Ashkelon, ‘Azah, ‘Ekron and those remaining in Ashdod; 21 Edom, Mo’av, and the people of ‘Amon; 22 all the kings of Tzor, of Tzidon and of the coastlands across the sea; 23 D’dan, Teima, Buz and all who cut the corners of their beards; 24 all the kings of Arabia and of the mixed peoples living in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, of ‘Eilam and of the Medes; 26 and all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another — indeed, all the kingdoms of the world that there are on the surface of the earth. And the king of Sheshakh will drink last of all.
27 “You are to say to them, ‘Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says: Drink until you’re so drunk that you throw up, fall down, and never get up again, because of the sword I am sending among you!’ 28 If they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink it, then say to them, ‘Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot says: You must drink! 29 For, look! — if I am bringing disaster on the city that bears my own name, do you expect to go unpunished? Yes, I will summon a sword for all the inhabitants of the earth,’ says Adonai.
30 “As for you, [Yirmeyahu,] prophesy all these words against them; say to them,
‘Adonai is roaring from on high,
raising his voice from his holy dwelling,
roaring with might against his own habitation,
shouting out loud, like those who tread grapes,
against everyone living on earth.
31 The sound resounds to the ends of the earth,
for Adonai is indicting the nations,
about to pass judgment on all humankind;
the wicked he has handed over to the sword,’
says Adonai.” 32 Thus says Adonai-Tzva’ot:
“Disaster is spreading from nation to nation,
a mighty tempest is being unleashed
from the farthest ends of the earth.”
33 On that day, those killed by Adonai will be strewn
from one end of the earth to the other;
they will not be mourned or gathered or buried,
but will lie on the ground like dung.
CJB


Therefore, although this was indeed a prophecy as related by Yirmeyahu's hand, it is FULFILLED prophecy and has NOTHING to do with OUR future! To think to use it as some prophecy that still needs to be fulfilled is an error. One must be more discerning than that.

Jeremiah 4:23-28 is likewise a prophecy that has already been fulfilled:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
4:1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai,
“yes, return to me; and if you will banish
your abominations from my presence
without wandering astray again;
2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’
in truth, justice and righteousness;
then the nations will bless themselves by him,
and in him will they glory.”
3 For here is what Adonai says
to the people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim:
“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed,
and do not sow among thorns.”
4 “People of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim,
circumcise yourselves for Adonai,
remove the foreskins of your heart!
Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire,
burning so hot that no one can quench it,
because of how evil your actions are.
5 “Announce in Y’hudah, proclaim in Yerushalayim;
say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’
Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble!
Let us go to the fortified cities!’
6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon,
head for cover without delay.
For I will bring disaster from the north,
yes, dire destruction.
7 A lion has risen from his lair,
a destroyer of nations has set out,
left his own place to ruin your land,
to demolish and depopulate your cities.”
8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth,
lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger
has not turned away from us.

9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“the king’s heart will fail him,
likewise the princes’;
the cohanim will be appalled
and the prophets stupefied.”
10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”
11 “At that time it will be said
of this people and of Yerushalayim:
‘A scorching wind from the desert heights
is sweeping down on my people.’
It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;
12 this wind of mine is too strong for that.
Now I will pass sentence on them.”
13 Here he comes, like the clouds,
his chariots like the whirlwind,
his horses faster than eagles!
Woe to us, we are doomed!
14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim,
so that you can be saved.
How long will you harbor within yourselves
your evil thoughts?
15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim:
16 “Report it to the nations,
proclaim about Yerushalayim:
‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country,
watching and shouting their war cry
against the cities of Y’hudah.’
17 Like guards in a field they surround her,
because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.
18 “Your own ways and your actions
have brought these things on yourselves.
This is your wickedness, so bitter!
It has reached your very heart.”
19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain!
My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! —
because I have heard the shofar sound;
it’s the call to war.
20 The news is disaster after disaster!
All the land is ruined!
My tents are suddenly destroyed,
my tent curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see that signal
and hear the shofar sound?
22 “It is because my people are foolish —
they do not know me; they are stupid children,
without understanding, wise when doing evil;
but they don’t know how to do good.”
23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void —
and at the sky — it had no light.
24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook —
all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I looked, and there was no human being;
all the birds in the air had fled.
26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert,
all the land’s cities were razed to the ground
at the presence of Adonai,
before his burning anger.
27 For here is what Adonai says:
“The whole land will be desolate
(although I will not destroy it completely).
28 Because of this, the land will mourn
and the sky above be black;
for I have spoken, I have decided,
I will not change my mind, I will not turn back.”
29 At the noise of the horsemen and archers,
the entire city flees —
some plunge into thickets; others climb rocks;
all cities are deserted; no one lives there.
30 And you, who are doomed to be plundered,
what do you mean by putting on crimson,
decking yourselves with jewels and gold,
enlarging your eyes with eye make-up?
You beautify yourself in vain —
your lovers despise you, they seek your life!
31 For I have heard a sound like a woman in labor,
in anguish giving birth to her first child.
It is the sound of the daughter of Tziyon
gasping for breath as she spreads her hands:
“Woe to me! Everything in me
is so weary before the killers.”
CJB


So, again, the passage, although indeed a prophecy, is a FULFILLED prophecy and is not to be fulfilled again!

Even the context of Isaiah 24:1-6 is not all inclusive of the whole earth but is restricted to the Land of Isra'el (although this may indeed be a prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled).

Isa 24:1-23
24:1 Look! Adonai is stripping
and destroying the land,
turning it upside down
and scattering its inhabitants —
2 cohen and commoner, slave and master,
maid and mistress, buyer and seller,
lender and borrower, creditor and debtor.
3 The land will be completely stripped,
completely plundered,
for Adonai has spoken this word.
4 The land fades and withers,
the world wilts and withers,
the exalted of the land languish.
5 The land lies defiled under its inhabitants;
because they have transgressed the teachings,
changed the law
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse is devouring the land,
and its inhabitants are punished for their guilt.
It is why those living there waste away,
and the people left are few.
7 The new wine fails, the vines wilt,
all the revelers sigh,
8 the happy sound of tambourines ceases,
the shouts of merrymakers are stilled,
the joy of the lyre ends.
9 They no longer sing as they drink their wine,
strong liquor tastes bitter to those drinking it.
10 The city of chaos is shattered,
every house closed up; no one can enter.
11 In the streets they are crying over the wine;
all joy has faded, cheer has left the land.
12 In the city, only desolation,
its gates are battered beyond repair.
13 Around the earth, among the peoples,
it will be as when beating an olive tree,
as when gleaning the grapes at the end of the harvest.
14 They lift their voices, singing for joy,
shouting from the west to honor Adonai.
15 So in the east, honor Adonai;
in the coastlands, honor the name of Adonai,
the God of Isra’el.
16 From the farthest part of the earth
we have heard them sing,“Glory to the Righteous One!”
But, I say, I’m wasting away,
I am wasting away!
Woe to me! Traitors betray!
Oh, how the traitors betray and betray!
17 Terror, pit and trap are upon you,
you who are living on earth.
18 He who flees at the sound of terror
will fall into the pit.
He who climbs up out of the pit
will be caught in the trap.
For the windows above have been opened,
and the earth’s foundations shake.
19 The earth cracks and breaks open,
the earth crumbles to pieces,
the earth trembles and totters.
20 The earth staggers to and fro like a drunk,
sways back and forth like a watchman’s shelter;
its transgression weighs heavy upon it;
it will fall and not rise again.
21 When that day comes, Adonai will punish
the armies of the high heaven on high,
and the kings of the earth here on earth.
22 They will be assembled like prisoners in a dungeon
and shut up in prison to be punished many years.
23 Then the moon will be confused and the sun ashamed,
for Adonai-Tzva’ot will rule on Mount Tziyon
and in Yerushalayim,
with his glory manifest to the rulers of his people.
CJB


Please take the time to check out what you are quoting and ESPECIALLY what you are believing based on those quotes!