Why does this offend you Kriss?Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. "The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth." - Psalm 58:3 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." - Psalm 51:5
Question regarding once saved, always saved
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(kriss;22995)
Calvanism is not Sola-scripture peacebewithyou look at the chart its mens thoughts not Gods word.
But isn't it confusing when it's based on God's word. A good argument could be made, using scripture to back up Calvanism - even if it isn't true.
Calvanism is not Sola-scripture peacebewithyou look at the chart its mens thoughts not Gods word.
But isn't it confusing when it's based on God's word. A good argument could be made, using scripture to back up Calvanism - even if it isn't true.
(Peacebewithyou;22997)
But isn't it confusing when it's based on God's word. A good argument could be made, using scripture to back up Calvanism - even if it isn't true.
Its not Gods words do you believe all babies are born evil that God created evil that the only ones saved are the Calvinists? That Christ was crusified in vain?If you do not then its easy to see that these are mens thoughts not Gods words. Anychurch or group that claims they are the only ones is not of God for it does not take a Bible expert to know Gods loves all his children and thats why he sent his son to us.
But isn't it confusing when it's based on God's word. A good argument could be made, using scripture to back up Calvanism - even if it isn't true.
Its not Gods words do you believe all babies are born evil that God created evil that the only ones saved are the Calvinists? That Christ was crusified in vain?If you do not then its easy to see that these are mens thoughts not Gods words. Anychurch or group that claims they are the only ones is not of God for it does not take a Bible expert to know Gods loves all his children and thats why he sent his son to us.
I'm glad these verses are not offensive to you, Kriss. Can you please address them in light of the discussion at hand? Thankyou.Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. "The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth." - Psalm 58:3 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." - Psalm 51:5
Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"What does it mean to be "chosen"?It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in."Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory. Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me."I was born in the flesh and in sin was I conceived. Flesh is sin, and as long as you are in the flesh you will sin. You will always have a struggle between the flesh nature and your soul.To be Flesh to is to be in sin except Jesus Christ who was without sinit means nothing more nothing less we all fall short. Babies are not evil nor does God create Evil Psalms 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they be born, Yes there are wicked people born They go astray after birth No one denys this this doesnt mean God created them evil it says they go astray after birth there are wicked parents out there did you ever hear of Child abuseNo where does any of this say God is like Santa Claus making a master list and checking it twice
Thank you Kriss.
Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"What does it mean to be "chosen"?It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in."Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.
We agree that God did the chosing in this passage. Concerning the part you left out.Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, >>---5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.---
Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"What does it mean to be "chosen"?It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in."Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.
We agree that God did the chosing in this passage. Concerning the part you left out.Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, >>---5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.---
Ok Dave lets stop playing games here I know what your doctrine is and I know the Wordvery well meaning I know what scripture saysI know perfectly well that we were all created in the first earth age.I also know Satan rebelled in the first earth age. 1/3 of us followed Satan in his rebellion rather than kill 1/3 of his children. God destroyed the Age renewed the earth and put us here. in this 2nd earh age. The ones that did not follow Satan are the Elect of this end time Generation. However in the first earth age we were not in flesh bodies but in our true state our spiritual Bodies. As we will be again at the close of this age. changed in the twinkling of an eye.I agree God knows who his Elect are. Where we differ here is God knows who the Elect are we do not The very reason for this flesh age was to save the third of Gods children that were taken in by Satan in the first age. God does not create evil he lets it continue. He created Satan who became evil. Of his own free will.The thing God wants is our love he knows that true love must come willingly so he gave each one of a free will to love him or not.The Elect will be the overcomers and anyone can be adopted into the overcomers or the Elect. This is the doctrine of his Grace by his Grace through our faith we can be forgiven for all sins and be adopted into the ElectYou on the other hand believe this is all predestined this denys Grace, I dont buy your doctrine you have nothing to teach your doctrine is of men and egos. The idea that men have the knowledge to know whom are the Elect I say these are things are of God one can think they are of the Elect fine Ill give you that. But one can not know who the others are that are of the Elect because only God knows anothers heart. Not Man. and others will be Adopted into the Elect that was the reason for Christ to open the way of Adoption to All. Not just your select list.I do not need to enlightned to your doctrine I know it and do not buy it. Salvation and adoption into the Elect is open to all who choose to attain it and overcome until the End and do follow Antichrist (Satan) again in this age.Giving me all your verse to prove predestiation is nothing I already know it you just are mislead about the reasons for it and who all it applies to. I will never believe your Master list doctrine I know better not just from scripture but by what I know God has put on my heart and I will never take your word or any other mans or churchs or religion preacher or teachers word over what God has personally shown me.I do appreciate the spirt behind your motive.For those reading this that do not understand put it on the shelf God shows us all different things at different times
(Dave...;23005)
Thank you Kriss.We agree that God did the chosing in this passage. Concerning the part you left out.Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, >>---5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.---
Thank you Kriss.We agree that God did the chosing in this passage. Concerning the part you left out.Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, >>---5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.---
Dave, I think too many people confuse the word "pleasure" with "entertainment." I think fundamentally we agree on most issues, just differ on this particular issue.The key tenants of your doctrine here is based on the idea that God knows exactly what we're going to do ahead of time. In other words, he differs very little from the ancient Grecian gods that toyed with humans. I think this is a dangerous channel of believing that we're all here suffering because God likes to watch. I have a serious problem, even with our mistakes as children of God, that he takes pleasure in punishing his children alongside those that defy him.What I firmly believe goes back to what Kriss has said about the first earth age. God knows who he can trust and who he cannot. He further knows the ones whom he can place more weight on their shoulders. God is open to whomsoever will.It ignores that there are two types of Christian. There is the type that believes upon Christ:Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Then there is the type that is stopped on the road to Damascus and told what to believe. This is the elect. Saul became Paul not by choice, but by God's will. However, would you want to argue that the thief on the cross was forced? Grace is open to whomever will. Grace is unmerited. Christ didn't die on the cross for a bunch that would have believed anyway.
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Then there is the type that is stopped on the road to Damascus and told what to believe. This is the elect. Saul became Paul not by choice, but by God's will. However, would you want to argue that the thief on the cross was forced? Grace is open to whomever will. Grace is unmerited. Christ didn't die on the cross for a bunch that would have believed anyway.
Kriss
Ok Dave lets stop playing games here I know what your doctrine is and I know the Word
You are the only one playing games Kriss. Kriss, those were serious and honest questions. Your constantly avoiding them is very revealing.
Where we differ here is God knows who the Elect are we do not
I actually agree that we do not know who the elect are. That's why we preach the Gospel to everyone. It's just another straw man argument, Kriss. I never said nor implied that we knew who the elect were. God does.
You on the other hand believe this is all predestined this denys Grace
I never said that. Go figure!!!
That doesn't let you off the hook though, because all is ordained. I believe that there is a distinction between ordained and predestined. God is not surprised, He is all knowing, all the time. Can you show me were I said "all is predestined"? Another straw man, Kriss. This doesn't deny God's grace. It's obvious that you try to conform God's Word to your preconcevied pre-Adamic race at all cost, just like Tallman does with tongues (it's really that bad). That's what all false teachers do, they always have a "thing". That's about as nice as I can put it. Your avoidance of the simple questions asked, and the fact that you only quoted half the passage that I used when you replied, and when confronted with this, you avoided answering it yet again, shows your true colours, Kriss. It's not a mistake made in ignorance on your part, but a supression of the truth in unrighteousness. Maybe you do not see it in yourself, but it's very obvious. You need to repent, Kriss.=============================================Denver
I think this is a dangerous channel of believing that we're all here suffering because God likes to watch.
False premise Denver. I never claimed this, nor does God's Word. It's a straw man argument made on a foundation of secular humanist reasoning on your part, not the Bible. Real love is sometimes tough love. God uses our suffering in many ways for our good and His glory. It's literally everywhere in scripture.
I have a serious problem, even with our mistakes as children of God, that he takes pleasure in punishing his children alongside those that defy him.
Those who God loves, He chastises. And they are not sent to eternal punishment with the unsaved, as your comment implies. Why is it that instead of searching the scriptures and trying to find the answers to the tough question, people just claim "it's not fair" and begin to conform God's Word, in their minds, to what they percieve as fair? Your standing in judgment of God perfect righteousness and perfect justice is an abomination and a rejection of Him. I hope that you understand this. Remember how He replied to Job? How far did Job get with his "it isn't fair" argument?
It ignores that there are two types of Christian. There is the type that believes upon Christ:
We are all one in Christ. We (includes the writer Paul), are all saved by grace through faith, it is not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast, it is a gift from God.Denver, I take it you are in charge here. I know that I will be banned because of this post, but that's ok, it might just snatch some from the fires of hell. Imagine that, there is a motive of love behind it all.
How could that be? This forum is a cult. It has all the signs. May the Lord open everyones heart to see the truth of what is being done here. And may all those who I played a part in leading here, directly, and indirectly, please forgive me. This is my last post here.
Ok Dave lets stop playing games here I know what your doctrine is and I know the Word
You are the only one playing games Kriss. Kriss, those were serious and honest questions. Your constantly avoiding them is very revealing.
Where we differ here is God knows who the Elect are we do not
I actually agree that we do not know who the elect are. That's why we preach the Gospel to everyone. It's just another straw man argument, Kriss. I never said nor implied that we knew who the elect were. God does.
You on the other hand believe this is all predestined this denys Grace
I never said that. Go figure!!!
I think this is a dangerous channel of believing that we're all here suffering because God likes to watch.
False premise Denver. I never claimed this, nor does God's Word. It's a straw man argument made on a foundation of secular humanist reasoning on your part, not the Bible. Real love is sometimes tough love. God uses our suffering in many ways for our good and His glory. It's literally everywhere in scripture.
I have a serious problem, even with our mistakes as children of God, that he takes pleasure in punishing his children alongside those that defy him.
Those who God loves, He chastises. And they are not sent to eternal punishment with the unsaved, as your comment implies. Why is it that instead of searching the scriptures and trying to find the answers to the tough question, people just claim "it's not fair" and begin to conform God's Word, in their minds, to what they percieve as fair? Your standing in judgment of God perfect righteousness and perfect justice is an abomination and a rejection of Him. I hope that you understand this. Remember how He replied to Job? How far did Job get with his "it isn't fair" argument?
It ignores that there are two types of Christian. There is the type that believes upon Christ:
We are all one in Christ. We (includes the writer Paul), are all saved by grace through faith, it is not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast, it is a gift from God.Denver, I take it you are in charge here. I know that I will be banned because of this post, but that's ok, it might just snatch some from the fires of hell. Imagine that, there is a motive of love behind it all.
How could that be? This forum is a cult. It has all the signs. May the Lord open everyones heart to see the truth of what is being done here. And may all those who I played a part in leading here, directly, and indirectly, please forgive me. This is my last post here.I thought Denver and I were trying to have a reasonable conversation with you but obviously the only reason here is if we buy your way. The extreme Calvanistic viewpoint. The only one trying to push their doctrine is you because we wont buy your religions twisting of scriptureand bow down to the idea that all are predestined and Christ died in Vain, As some kind of jokeyou preach only the Elect will be saved an get your doctrine and everyone else is predestined to hell that all babies are born evil. That God will never truly love anyone but the Elect Well excuse me call us whatever you like but I will never believe that doctrine.If there is cult behavior going on its yours, And your God has a Master list doctrine that the rest of us sinners are not privy to be on.We are Sola Scriptura-one who rejects the false doctrine of infallible church organizations, pastors and individuals and we claims only the Bible is infallible... and we best start reading it to know exactly what it says!So if following only the Bible and Gods word is called a cult in your eyes so be it, that would make Christa charter member.
The Dangers of Extreme CalvinismOne of the issues that the Christian Church has had to face over the years is the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. One side says that Gods election (choosing) is the ultimate path to salvation, while the other side says that mans free-will desires salvation.This debate is quickly spilling over into our New Testament assemblies. Assemblies have usually taken a middle of the road position on this issue. We see the truths of God choosing (Romans 11:7) and man choosing (Matthew 23:37 and Luke 18:22,23) both taught in Scripture. And if we dont completely understand how these two concepts fit together, we still accept all that the Bible has to say about this issue.Yet there are some within our assemblies who are pushing us to take a more Calvinistic view. Some are graduates of the schools we have supported, and some have simply fallen under the sway of well meaning but extremely zealous Calvinists. I write this article because I am afraid that extreme Calvinism has serious consequences, and is going to damage many assemblies over the next few years, and will cause much disunity and many splits.Perhaps the greatest danger of extreme Calvinism is its obsessive nature. While some who hold this view possess fine Christian character, many can talk about little else. They will push the doctrine of election when they preach, when they pray and when they worship. Some will even push for the adoption of this doctrine to become a test of fellowship. Some assemblies, having fallen under the influence of strong Calvinists, now declare that a man cannot be an elder until he has understood Gods sovereign grace (which is a euphemism for adopting a strongly Calvinist position). It is probable that these people will feel that other Christians have a defective view of Gods sovereignty.Another danger concerns how extreme Calvinists deal with Scripture. Any verse that seems to imply human decision must be explained away or made to fit into some sophisticated theory. Some verses are radically reinterpreted. For example, an extreme Calvinist would say that the gift in Ephesians 2:8,9 is faith, not salvation. They will tell us that references to world, as in John 3:16, do not actually refer to all men, but only the elect.A third danger concerns how the Gospel is preached. We are thankful for every Calvinist who sees the need to preach the Gospel (and most do see this need), but we might be surprised at some of what they say. Instead of calling out for sinners to repent and make their decision today, they will pray that God would give them grace. It is likely that a sinner would be confused at what the Calvinist is saying. An extreme Calvinist can never tell a sinner that God loves them and wants to save them, because in their system of theology, God only loves some. The extreme Calvinist will never tell sinners that Christ died to save them, because under their system of theology, Christs atonement is limited, and He only died for some.The final danger of extreme Calvinism is that it presents an unbiblical viewpoint of the character of God. Some in the Calvinist camp, including Arthur W. Pink, and even John Calvin himself believed that God creates people for the purpose of damning them. If this was the teaching of Scripture, we would be forced to accept it, but it is not. Such views are the speculations of theological extremists.The relationship between Gods election and mans choosing is a deep one. There are no easy answers. But both truths are taught in Scripture. Calvinists are not cultists, but brothers and sisters who have taken a Biblical truth to an unbiblical extreme. Calvinism, in its extreme form has very serious consequences, and those who shepherd the believers, as well as all Christians who love the Word of God and the Gospel, must guard against those who would push us into a dangerously one-sided position.
If salvation is a gift and we recieve it by faith in what Christ did on the cross, When does God take this gift away from us once we accept it? When my children were born to me nothing could seperate them from that fact. When children rebel against there parents they are still their children they just lose fellowship with them. The child still carries our blood. In 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 it speaks of building on a foundation which is Jesus Christ. Our works will be manifested by fire. Some will suffer loss but he himself shall be saved.If we are in the hand of Jesus, Jesus is in the hand of God. How can anything seperate us if we are kept by his power?In John 3:16 we recieve eternal life. What does eternal mean? Rom6:23, 1 John 5:13, Luke 8:18 and others say that true believers have eternal life.God will never forsake us? When does he forsake us after salvation?My security is in Christ and his ability to keep me once I accept him by faith. The debate seems to be over when a person is saved. Because once we are in Christ we are hid. Col.3:3-4
False premise Denver. I never claimed this, nor does God's Word. It's a straw man argument made on a foundation of secular humanist reasoning on your part, not the Bible. Real love is sometimes tough love. God uses our suffering in many ways for our good and His glory. It's literally everywhere in scripture.
Hardly a false premise. If you're going to believe something, you've got to consider the consequences. We do not disagree that real love involves tough love. I've used that phrase myself long before you came onsite.My reasoning is based on very Biblical realties. You guys construct a world where frankly it doesn't really matter. God already has his saved and this is merely an exercise in futility. Why, then, are we commanded to go out into the world? Just so God can watch what he knew we we would do in the first place? Oh, and by the way, he sent his only begotten Son to die needlessly for those who are saved anyway? Why do I need a Savior, God knows my heart!My reasoning is based on the suffering of my Savior. This certainly marks the first time I've ever been told that I have the reasoning of a secular humanist, which is an absolute joke at this point, not worth the response. I'll stick with Scripture.
Those who God loves, He chastises. And they are not sent to eternal punishment with the unsaved, as your comment implies.
Again, I certainly must be implying a lot of things I am not aware of! Give me a break, a gross, gross misrepresentation...and a flat out lie...about what I have said. Again, not worth the response, I know what I've said, I leave it up for others to see.
Why is it that instead of searching the scriptures and trying to find the answers to the tough question, people just claim "it's not fair" and begin to conform God's Word, in their minds, to what they percieve as fair? Your standing in judgment of God perfect righteousness and perfect justice is an abomination and a rejection of Him. I hope that you understand this. Remember how He replied to Job? How far did Job get with his "it isn't fair" argument?
I don't know? Why do they continue to do they very same thing you do in the remainder of your post? Why don't you actually do what you accuse me of doing and stand for your own faith? You seem to have an issue ignoring questions asked of you quite easily, and that's a bad one to have. Run away, maybe some will follow after you, but I doubt it.Again, I'm basing my "argument" off of a Savior that suffered because you and I can't get it right without his help.Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
He wants every last one of his children, the souls that belong to him, to come to him. He gives us the chance that we can. Some of us are where we are because of what we did in the first earth age. Some of us are where we are because we accepted his offer of Grace. Either way, our Father makes it available through the death of his Son, not because he's picked out all of us ahead of time but still decided to play around with us like pawns.His Son died on the cross, foreordained (I Peter 1:20). What is the one thing that unites all true Christians in the Father? Not in the action of the law of being picked out ahead of time, but because we return the love that he has shown us by accepting his offer of grace.I put the charge back on anyone who believes this doctrine. I agree that no one who is truly saved can become unsaved, for Hebrews 6 documents this very fact. Christ wasn't crucified twice. The problem comes, when you think that for any instant of time you are even close to being fit to be a judge. You have no right and, thank YHVH, no ability to judge who is saved and who is not. That is indeed blasphemy because there is one judge, and one judge only. I submit myself to him and him alone, I submit what I have said through this site to him in the same manner. I'll have my faults, but in the meantime I am going to preach the gospel, the real, non-fairytale version of the Word to anyone that will listen because I don't know who is in the in crowd and who is not. Are you concerned solely with who is "in" or are you concerned with doing your best to get as many in as possible, knowing God is the judge? What do you think a true Christian's answer is? What do you think the Bible has to say on the matter? Sit aside because you're clear? What's true love? I don't a soul to perish, but sadly enough they will. In the meantime, I'm going to do something about it. I'm not going to waste all my time arguing with someone that fundamentally agrees. For this is the sign of man's doctrine time and again.
Hardly a false premise. If you're going to believe something, you've got to consider the consequences. We do not disagree that real love involves tough love. I've used that phrase myself long before you came onsite.My reasoning is based on very Biblical realties. You guys construct a world where frankly it doesn't really matter. God already has his saved and this is merely an exercise in futility. Why, then, are we commanded to go out into the world? Just so God can watch what he knew we we would do in the first place? Oh, and by the way, he sent his only begotten Son to die needlessly for those who are saved anyway? Why do I need a Savior, God knows my heart!My reasoning is based on the suffering of my Savior. This certainly marks the first time I've ever been told that I have the reasoning of a secular humanist, which is an absolute joke at this point, not worth the response. I'll stick with Scripture.
Those who God loves, He chastises. And they are not sent to eternal punishment with the unsaved, as your comment implies.
Again, I certainly must be implying a lot of things I am not aware of! Give me a break, a gross, gross misrepresentation...and a flat out lie...about what I have said. Again, not worth the response, I know what I've said, I leave it up for others to see.
Why is it that instead of searching the scriptures and trying to find the answers to the tough question, people just claim "it's not fair" and begin to conform God's Word, in their minds, to what they percieve as fair? Your standing in judgment of God perfect righteousness and perfect justice is an abomination and a rejection of Him. I hope that you understand this. Remember how He replied to Job? How far did Job get with his "it isn't fair" argument?
I don't know? Why do they continue to do they very same thing you do in the remainder of your post? Why don't you actually do what you accuse me of doing and stand for your own faith? You seem to have an issue ignoring questions asked of you quite easily, and that's a bad one to have. Run away, maybe some will follow after you, but I doubt it.Again, I'm basing my "argument" off of a Savior that suffered because you and I can't get it right without his help.Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
He wants every last one of his children, the souls that belong to him, to come to him. He gives us the chance that we can. Some of us are where we are because of what we did in the first earth age. Some of us are where we are because we accepted his offer of Grace. Either way, our Father makes it available through the death of his Son, not because he's picked out all of us ahead of time but still decided to play around with us like pawns.His Son died on the cross, foreordained (I Peter 1:20). What is the one thing that unites all true Christians in the Father? Not in the action of the law of being picked out ahead of time, but because we return the love that he has shown us by accepting his offer of grace.I put the charge back on anyone who believes this doctrine. I agree that no one who is truly saved can become unsaved, for Hebrews 6 documents this very fact. Christ wasn't crucified twice. The problem comes, when you think that for any instant of time you are even close to being fit to be a judge. You have no right and, thank YHVH, no ability to judge who is saved and who is not. That is indeed blasphemy because there is one judge, and one judge only. I submit myself to him and him alone, I submit what I have said through this site to him in the same manner. I'll have my faults, but in the meantime I am going to preach the gospel, the real, non-fairytale version of the Word to anyone that will listen because I don't know who is in the in crowd and who is not. Are you concerned solely with who is "in" or are you concerned with doing your best to get as many in as possible, knowing God is the judge? What do you think a true Christian's answer is? What do you think the Bible has to say on the matter? Sit aside because you're clear? What's true love? I don't a soul to perish, but sadly enough they will. In the meantime, I'm going to do something about it. I'm not going to waste all my time arguing with someone that fundamentally agrees. For this is the sign of man's doctrine time and again.
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