"Free" Will

JoJoRoss · May 12, 2014

[SIZE=medium] This scripture is actually meant to cut your to your complacent heart, yet the first thing YOUR ILK would say, is "God made me thus, so what rebuke HAS HE??"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Of course you are responsible, and if only God does it, you are not...God in fact made you with the choices to choose....something or other, good or bad in some sense or other. Whether FREE will or not, whether your will is HINDERED or not, part of the unique nephesh God gave you is to desire and will....WHAT you will.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Like I said, and actually like Paul said, the formed thing does not know how it all comes together. But YOUR responsibility is to want to love God and to LOVE GOD. Shema.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Think spiritually not carnally nothead. Seek the spirit not the flesh. You are trying to rationalize with your carnal mind the Spiritual things of God:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Romans 8:6-[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]For[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] to [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]be[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] carnally[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]minded[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] is [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]death;[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]but[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] to [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]be[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] spiritually[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]minded[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] is [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]life[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]and[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]peace.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]God the Father puts everything in our path for chastening us to be more like him. That includes good and evil. God created evil don’t you know: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 45:7- I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I try my very best to follows Gods Spirit and obey His commands. Finding out this truth has helped me even more follow Gods commands. I love God even more! Sorry if that disappoints ya.[/SIZE]

Not to try to figure it out. Listen I grew up pondering the Reformed take on reality. Decades ago I rejected it. But when Shema came to me as revelation, I REALLY rejected it.

Well then your rejecting the Word of God Nothead. I wonder what revelation of Shema was really?

1 John 4:18-And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

This is actually a pentecostal verse.

For without faith and the Spirit of God the supernatural fruit of the Spirit will not manifest. See how Reformed perverts the plain text.

Matthew 13:13-This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Plain text is not so plain to the carnal minded nothead.

Why you talkin to me then? Talk to God, herr nirvana man. Maybe HE will impress upon me you nirvana, man.

Spreading the Good news brotha! You replied to my thread as well

God is Spirit don't ya know bra?
And whoever worships Him must do it in SPIRIT and in TRUTH!

Yeah God did it. Made you your own person. Wow, that's the story of Adam and Eve...made Adam a man willing to will what he, Adam will will. Whoa you got it, I think. Gave him the onliest thing not to do, eat of that there fruit.

And guess what Adam did. God did not do it, no sense of this, sir. Adam did it. Listened to that woman. Just as every yayhoo who ever got tempted by a woman has done.

Was it Eve’s will from the beginning ("free" or otherwise), that she would eat the forbidden fruit? No, it wasn’t. Let’s read it:

"Now the serpent was more subtle
[cunning] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, Ye [you and your husband] shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Eve was not yet deceived: she was not as yet caused to disobey God. She set the serpent straight by telling him that his statement wasn’t completely true. They could eat of all of the fruit in the garden EXCEPT ONE. Eve was okay with that commandment from God. Well why did she then eat of the forbidden fruit? WHAT CHANGED?

Did Eve’s "heart" change? No, she had the same heart she was created with.
Did Eve’s "mind" change? Yes it did.
Did Eve’s "will" change? Yes, of course it did.

Now for the "sixty-four thousand dollar question." WHAT changed Eve’s mind and will? Even though Eve had a deceitful heart, there was something else that CAUSED her to change or mind and her will regarding the forbidden fruit. The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will. Eve did not "freely" will to sin. Her choice to sin was not "free" from an external cause. IT WAS CAUSED, and when something is CAUSED to happen, it could not have been "free" to NOT HAPPEN. Am I going too fast for anyone?

"But I fear, lest by any means, AS the serpent BEGUILED
[Gk: ‘DECEIVED’] Eve through HIS subtlety [craftiness]…" (II Cor. 11:3).

Where does anyone see one single word here to the effect that Eve deceived HERSELF, or caused HERSELF to sin, or "freely" willed HERSELF into a different frame of mind WITHOUT A CAUSE nothead?

I pondered your paradigm back in the eightys. It did not make sense then and it makes no common sense now. Thanks but please hark your snake oil somewhere's else.

Not where warriors tend to roost. Stay in the playpen. Slobber on your toys. That's it. Have fun doin' it. Smile and laugh. I love you, babe.

Like I said before, since I found this truth my walk with God has grown stronger not weaker.

[SIZE=medium]By you own paradigm, you talkin' again to the wrong one. Talk to God, you will do better. I got no will, remember? I can't do nothing, 'cept rant and rave at you. And God made me do it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]No the devil. One of them guys at least. Me I am not me or I. Have no will of me own. Lobot, a robot with a frontal lobotomy.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]No that's YOU, babe. Baby lobot with a flontal lobotomy. Must be Chinese too.[/SIZE]

Again, that is your carnal mind acting up again. Seek the Spiritual mind. Seek God.

[SIZE=medium]That one went right over me head. Me nothead say it clear.[/SIZE]

Pray and ponder. If you really want to know, God will let you

[SIZE=medium]This is for your conscience to get seared but how can mine if it is not me own? God owns it? Operates it? Where is me then? Passive observer? Then I don't need to repent, sir...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]...God does.[/SIZE]

Who are you to talk back to God, my man? Submit!

[SIZE=medium]You reading Rom 9 like you got no mind of your own. Guess what. No one can buy it. No one owns it. God gave it to you to make of it what you will. He hinders or draws for YOUR intents and purposes...but you decide. For yourself, of course, not for Tom Dick or Harry. Or Harrietta. Or Johnny-come-lately. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]God tells you to DO THIS and NOT DO THAT for a reason. HE ain't gonna do it or not do it. YOU gonna either do it or not. And what would this be?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]How should I know? I ain't you and you ain't me. Mind ye own business. What have I been telling you anyhow?[/SIZE]

Haha you are responding to me so I am responding to you?? I will stop responding when you stop ok?

Gods the potter and I am the clay. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but it is BIBLE TRUTH!

StanJ · May 14, 2014

I don't see anything about 'free will' in those scriptures, but the same writer said later on;
Philemon 1:14
I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your helpfulness might not be by compulsion but by your own free will.

So I guess Paul recognized that we indeed have free will.

HammerStone · May 14, 2014

Please remain respectful and do not descend into the realm of excessive ad hominem postings! This thread has been cleaned up a bit.

nothead · May 14, 2014

Nobody is arguing that God did not draw us first. But we can in our WILL refuse the patient proddings of God.

This will is not hindered or is hindered no man knows exactly how much or how little. He just wills as God says to will. Prays as God says to pray.

Runs the Shema race as God says to, as Jesus said to in Mark 12. Love God with all you have. Don't worry if God is doing it or not. YOU DO IT.

God made you for such. It is the Great Command. I am surprised continually about how much gaff I get over this. What was the Word of God originally but Command?
And what is the primal one? Touche. Case Closed. Why am I getting the arguments?

Does anyone have one, moderator or expert or scholar? What does the plain text say?

[SIZE=.75em]29 [/SIZE]And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[SIZE=.75em]30 [/SIZE]And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

So then which expert among us insists 1) God is Three-in-One not one 2) we are not beholden to God's commands?

And why should I consider these? Because they are MAINLINE??

JoJoRoss · May 14, 2014

I don't see anything about 'free will' in those scriptures, but the same writer said later on;
Philemon 1:14
I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your helpfulness might not be by compulsion but by your own free will.

So I guess Paul recognized that we indeed have free will.

Hey StanJ,

A better translation: But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

We have a will. But it is not free from Gods [SIZE=14pt]Sovereignty.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=.75em]29 [/SIZE]And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[SIZE=.75em]30 [/SIZE]And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Hey Nothead,

Yes we are supposed love our Lord God with all our soul, mind and strength. But again how do we Love God: "We love Him [SIZE=medium][God] because He FIRST LOVED US"[/SIZE] ([SIZE=medium]I John 4:19[/SIZE])

Let ALL the glory be to GOD.

Gods Peace,
JoJo

nothead · May 14, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
Hey StanJ,

A better translation: But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

We have a will. But it is not free from Gods [SIZE=14pt]Sovereignty.[/SIZE]

Hey Nothead,

Yes we are supposed love our Lord God with all our soul, mind and strength. But again how do we Love God: "We love Him [SIZE=medium][God] because He FIRST LOVED US"[/SIZE] ([SIZE=medium]I John 4:19[/SIZE])

Let ALL the glory be to GOD.

Gods Peace,
JoJo

Nothing is free theoretically from GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY. But it is not our primary consideration because WE HAVE NOT THE MIND OF GOD.

So then we do what God says to do, because He said to do it. How many times I gotta repeat myself? Sovereign considerations are MOOT, since you don't have a clue about the final end-game determination: whether you are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world...or NOT.

Jo jo you THINK you are being humble and intellectually superior about it. You ain't since God's Sovereignty is outside the limitations OF your intellect.

When I say "Mind your own business," it isn't between me and you. It is between you and GOD. Mind your own side of covenant, in other words.

Also I've repeated over and over I am NOT arguing about whether God loved you first or not. Pentecostals would be STUPID to do so, having received the Baptism of Spirit.

StanJ · May 14, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
Hey StanJ,

A better translation: But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

We have a will. But it is not free from Gods [SIZE=14pt]Sovereignty.[/SIZE]

Hi JoJo,
Sorry but I have to disagree that the KJV is better. MOUNCE's Reverse Greek interlinear is much more accurate and reflective of our modern vernacular. The following link shows 5 modern English translations that render it the same;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philemon%201%3A14&version=MOUNCE;HCSB;NASB;GW;VOICE

nothead · May 15, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
We have a will. But it is not free from Gods [SIZE=14pt]Sovereignty.[/SIZE]

Hey Nothead,

Yes we are supposed love our Lord God with all our soul, mind and strength. But again how do we Love God: "We love Him [SIZE=medium][God] because He FIRST LOVED US"[/SIZE] ([SIZE=medium]I John 4:19[/SIZE])

Let ALL the glory be to GOD.

Gods Peace,
JoJo

See you are stating an inherent contradiction, every time you post. NOTHING including our WILL is outside of God's Sovereignty.

Then, "We love him, because He first loved us." You REALLY mean and let me be a little more clear for you IN YOUR OWN MIND: "God makes us love Him, and loved us first."

No, this is not the Covenant God intended. We love Him because He first loved us, yes. But take the variable out, "God MAKES US LOVE HIM, and first loved us."

Since you don't know this totally...God can SOVEREIGNLY allow for will to be independent and STILL have total control over all end-game results. How is this accomplished? How could nothead know? How can YOU know? How can anyone know?

See the problem? Our will and God's will are not AUTOMATICALLY enmeshed, only in the sovereign sense. NOT in the immediate sense. Of Spirit to spirit. We follow God in the here and now or not. We will to do God's will or not. We run our race which is no one else's or not.

SOVEREIGNLY all things may be predetermined. But in the HERE AND NOW, all things are open and free to do or not to do, and if they ARE NOT, we don't really know exactly where we are hindered.....S o v e r e i g n l y speaking.

Instead of being spiritually 'humble' we are in the Reformed sense deleting our end of covenant. To will and to work out our salvation. This is anathema to the modern theologian, to WORK out our salvation.

Since WORKS themselves are anathema. And what is the root cause of the negative connotation WORKS? Em, since we haven't been WORKING as hard as say, our third world country neighbors? Since we have GOLF CLUBS to attend and LUNCHEONS to smooze?

The gloss from God's immediate will in the Spirit to Sovereign will is detrimental. The gloss of our own unique nephesh with it's own talents or gifts and limitations is detrimental.

But the negation of our end of covenant is destructive to true spiritual growth.

Lettuce look at this from a slightly different angle. COVENANT is me, and God. God and me, in constant relationship. In the Here and Now, as Richard Alpert used to say...

...and this relational dynamic has nothing whatsoever to do with SOVEREIGN will. Because God is prodding us constantly with the things of glory, the ideal destiny of us, our own and Him in relation. Us in relation to our own. Us in relation to Him. Him in relation to us, and our own, HIS own.

And Sovereign will may include the non-glorious things, the fails, the uberfails and the temptations. These we ask God not to present, "Lead us not into temptation," but have no ultimate control over.

Things of glory -- will of the Spirit indwelling. Things of determination including the things of failure before God -- Sovereign will.

Those who do not see the difference here have misconstrued the Holy Spirit, making IT an automatic dynamic. The Baptism in the Spirit denies Reformed Doctrine as a whole.

And too the relational bond is lost. God helps us automatically and our own will is taken out of equation, intellectually now a THEORETICAL and ABSTRACT dynamic.

No, your will is the only thing you have your own, along with the Soul which harbors it. Treasure this and use it.

RANDOR · May 15, 2014

I gave my life to Chrsit..he forgave me of all my sins.....so now I live for Him
I'm going to heaven........that simple

StanJ · May 15, 2014

RANDOR said:
I gave my life to Chrsit..he forgave me of all my sins.....so now I live for Him
I'm going to heaven........that simple

I appreciate your fervor, but can you cite and scripture that confirms this?

RANDOR · May 15, 2014

StanJ said:
I appreciate your fervor, but can you cite and scripture that confirms this?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm why do we need a scripture?
I asked God to forgive me of my sins and He did.

JoJoRoss · May 15, 2014

Hi JoJo,
Sorry but I have to disagree that the KJV is better. MOUNCE's Reverse Greek interlinear is much more accurate and reflective of our modern vernacular. The following link shows 5 modern English translations that render it the same;
http://www.biblegate...B;NASB;GW;VOICE

Hey StanJ,

[SIZE=9pt]The passage is obviously spoken to a believer about making good choices. This just means 'voluntarily' and since it is directed toward believers who are already free from sins' bondage, of course they can 'freely' or voluntarily chose to do right. All people who already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are free from the corruption of nature, they have already been set free. Freedom in the Bible is not defined as the freedom to do otherwise, but freedom from bondage to sin. God is the most free since He cannot sin. So in conclusion, this passage in Philemon is not referring to the innate spiritual ability of unregenerate persons, but of regenerate ones. So what is causing us to voluntarily make good choices-THE HOLY SPIRIT, not us.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Gods peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Nothing is free theoretically from GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY. But it is not our primary consideration because WE HAVE NOT THE MIND OF GOD.

So then we do what God says to do, because He said to do it. How many times I gotta repeat myself? Sovereign considerations are MOOT, since you don't have a clue about the final end-game determination: whether you are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world...or NOT.

Jo jo you THINK you are being humble and intellectually superior about it. You ain't since God's Sovereignty is outside the limitations OF your intellect.

When I say "Mind your own business," it isn't between me and you. It is between you and GOD. Mind your own side of covenant, in other words.

Also I've repeated over and over I am NOT arguing about whether God loved you first or not. Pentecostals would be STUPID to do so, having received the Baptism of Spirit.

[SIZE=medium]Oh so you know what I think do you nothead? Please stop assuming what I am thinking please. You are arguing that God loved us first. Then why do you say it is up to us to love God when scripture says WE LOVE GOD BECAUSE HE LOVED US FIRST? Oh you have to have the MADE US LOVE HIM in there? Please. NO ONE CHOOSES GOD NOT ONE. No one knows…but God does not want us to KNOW. HE WANTS US TO HAVE FAITH. His FAITH. I have faith nothead that I will be in the book of life…do you? I have faith that no one can choose God unless He drags us to Him. I have FAITH in the Word of God…do you?[/SIZE]

No, your will is the only thing you have your own, along with the Soul which harbors it. Treasure this and use it.

Yes we have a will and a sould. But it's NOT FREE from the Sovereignty of God:

Col 1:16-For by him were ALL THINGS CREATED (Whats that? ALL THINGS,), that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible (your "FREE" soul and "FREE" will nothead), whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Gods peace,
JoJo

nothead · May 15, 2014

[SIZE=medium]Oh so you know what I think do you nothead? Please stop assuming what I am thinking please. You are arguing that God loved us first. Then why do you say it is up to us to love God when scripture says WE LOVE GOD BECAUSE HE LOVED US FIRST? Oh you have to have the MADE US LOVE HIM in there? Please. NO ONE CHOOSES GOD NOT ONE. No one knows…but God does not want us to KNOW. HE WANTS US TO HAVE FAITH. His FAITH. I have faith nothead that I will be in the book of life…do you? I have faith that no one can choose God unless He drags us to Him. I have FAITH in the Word of God…do you?[/SIZE]

This is not correct unless you are unitarian universalist. And then too it isn't objectively correct.

Sovereign will can go both ways. You are confusing ideal will with sovereign will. This is also indicative as you confused Holy Spirit drawing with sovereign will.

Sovereign will can put you in heaven or hell. Holy Spirit will draws all to heaven. Your theological paradigm is vastly infantile.

Col 1:16-For by him were ALL THINGS CREATED (Whats that? ALL THINGS,), that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible (your soul and will nothead), whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And? YOU have no control over these things, so why consider them first? YOUR RESPONSIBILITY is to will and to desire the ideal things of God. The Sovereign Will of God goes both ways, has both qualitative aspects, to good and to evil.

Gods peace,
JoJo

What a hypocrite.

God's peace is the Holy Spirit indwelling. Sovereign will is a whole nother keeboodle. Know the difference. Be happy. Sovereign will brings either or. Holy Spirit brings the ideal things God commands. The power to do. The impetus to be.

See you THINK I am a free-will Amircan. But my theology is eons beyond your own.

That means miles and miles ahead of.

StanJ · May 15, 2014

RANDOR said:
Hmmmmmmmmmmm why do we need a scripture?
I asked God to forgive me of my sins and He did.

and did God tell you that you were going to heaven? If He did then it will be IN scripture don't you think?

JoJoRoss said:
Hey StanJ,

[SIZE=9pt]The passage is obviously spoken to a believer about making good choices. This just means 'voluntarily' and since it is directed toward believers who are already free from sins' bondage, of course they can 'freely' or voluntarily chose to do right. All people who already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are free from the corruption of nature, they have already been set free. Freedom in the Bible is not defined as the freedom to do otherwise, but freedom from bondage to sin. God is the most free since He cannot sin. So in conclusion, this passage in Philemon is not referring to the innate spiritual ability of unregenerate persons, but of regenerate ones. So what is causing us to voluntarily make good choices-THE HOLY SPIRIT, not us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Gods peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Yes I agree, but it still conveys that people have free will. You can't voluntarily do anything without free will. Adam and Eve had free will, so I see no reason, without clear scriptural admonition or instruction, that all of a sudden humans lost free will in the NT. Joshua 24:15 still applies in the NT.
Bondage is one thing, and free will is another. Jesus told us to ask, seek and knock. If you don't have free will, you can't ask, seek or knock.
How can anyone possible be held accountable for choosing if they don't have the free will to do so?

JoJoRoss · May 15, 2014

[SIZE=14pt]This is not correct unless you are unitarian universalist. And then too it isn't objectively correct. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Sovereign will can go both ways. You are confusing ideal will with sovereign will. This is also indicative as you confused Holy Spirit drawing with sovereign will.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Sovereign will can put you in heaven or hell. Holy Spirit will draws all to heaven. Your theological paradigm is vastly infantile.[/SIZE]

Hey nothead-
[SIZE=14pt]Gods Sovereign will is only one way:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] You can call me all you want. I believe that Jesus is the only way (which unitarainism does not believe). Faith in Him is from Him:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] [not faith ‘IN’ the Son of God, but the very faith ‘OF’ the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]And? YOU have no control over these things, so why consider them first? YOUR RESPONSIBILITY is to will and to desire the ideal things of God. The Sovereign Will of God goes both ways, has both qualitative aspects, to good and to evil.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Where in the bible does it say we are responsible? According to the Word we should [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]“give an accounting”. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]BIG DIFFERENCE. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]We will all give an accounting for what God has done in our bodies:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]This will extend down to “every idle word” we may speak:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]And yes, God will judge us according to what is written in our book:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]But whatever any of us do, as referenced above, it was already written in His book before any of our days ever were:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]That is why we are told that we will “give an accounting” as opposed to being told that we are held accountable. This may be simple semantics to many, but the dictionaries, as you point out, say that accountable and responsible are synonymous, and it is for that reason that I simply point out that the scriptures do not say “hold accountable” anywhere. Instead they consistently say “give an accounting” everywhere.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]But my point is Joseph’s and Paul’s point. The reason we never see the phrase “hold accountable” is that “It is not I that do [ those works] but God”, be they good or evil:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.
Rom 7:20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]What a hypocrite.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]God's peace is the Holy Spirit indwelling. Sovereign will is a whole nother keeboodle. Know the difference. Be happy. Sovereign will brings either or. Holy Spirit brings the ideal things God commands. The power to do. The impetus to be.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]See you THINK I am a free-will Amircan. But my theology is eons beyond your own.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That means miles and miles ahead of.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Who is the Holy Spirit???? GOD!:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]This is you during this whole discussion:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:19-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]And this is Paul’s reply to you: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:20[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]You can try to be all wise and knowing, but I am laying out scripture after scripture and you still try to against Gods Word. Who did the Lord come to seek? The wise or the stupid?:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1Co 1:25-29-
The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Humble yourself to the creator OF ALL THINGS.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods PEACE,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Yes I agree, but it still conveys that people have free will. You can't voluntarily do anything without free will. Adam and Eve had free will, so I see no reason, without clear scriptural admonition or instruction, that all of a sudden humans lost free will in the NT. Joshua 24:15 still applies in the NT.
Bondage is one thing, and free will is another. Jesus told us to ask, seek and knock. If you don't have free will, you can't ask, seek or knock.
How can anyone possible be held accountable for choosing if they don't have the free will to do so?

Hey StanJ,

[SIZE=14pt]God knew what Adam and Eve were going to choose. Because…:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 8:20-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Adam, as with all who are in him could choose nothing else. The very meaning of the “first man Adam… is of the earth earthy,” meaning that Adam was marred in the Potter’s hand with an earthy, carnal corruptible mind. He and Eve committed every sin known to man before they ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1Jn 2:16 For all [ sin] that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It was Eve’s natural carnal mind that she had been given by her Creator, that caused her to listen to the lies of the serpent and to exercise the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They did not become naked after that. Eating of that tree simply made them aware of their already, from the hand of their Creator, naked sinful condition:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 51:5 Behold, I [ the first Adam and us] was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother [ Creator] conceive me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]You obviously see no personal reason for Paul’s telling us:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Rom 9:11 (For the children [ Jacob and Esau] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated ["While he was in his mother's womb, having done neither good nor evil"].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]You don’t believe that do you? You think that Esau was evil because of his own decisions. You believe that both Esau and Joseph’s brothers and Pharaoh, and King Saul and King Ahab could somehow have chosen of their own free will to thwart the predestination of Him “who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His Own will?”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Again just like "ALL WISE AND POWERFUL" nothead, your asking God this questions:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:19-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]AND again here is Pauls reply:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:20-Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There. A listed a bunch of scripture discussing why we have no Free will. It is ALL Gods Will.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

StanJ · May 15, 2014

JoJoRoss said:
Hey StanJ,

[SIZE=14pt]God knew what Adam and Eve were going to choose. Because…:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 8:20-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Adam, as with all who are in him could choose nothing else. The very meaning of the “first man Adam… is of the earth earthy,” meaning that Adam was marred in the Potter’s hand with an earthy, carnal corruptible mind. He and Eve committed every sin known to man before they ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1Jn 2:16 For all [ sin] that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It was Eve’s natural carnal mind that she had been given by her Creator, that caused her to listen to the lies of the serpent and to exercise the “lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life” before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They did not become naked after that. Eating of that tree simply made them aware of their already, from the hand of their Creator, naked sinful condition:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 51:5 Behold, I [ the first Adam and us] was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother [ Creator] conceive me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]You obviously see no personal reason for Paul’s telling us:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Rom 9:11 (For the children [ Jacob and Esau] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated ["While he was in his mother's womb, having done neither good nor evil"].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]You don’t believe that do you? You think that Esau was evil because of his own decisions. You believe that both Esau and Joseph’s brothers and Pharaoh, and King Saul and King Ahab could somehow have chosen of their own free will to thwart the predestination of Him “who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His Own will?”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Again just like "ALL WISE AND POWERFUL" nothead, your asking God this questions:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:19-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]AND again here is Pauls reply:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:20-Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There. A listed a bunch of scripture discussing why we have no Free will. It is ALL Gods Will.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Yes God did, but still gave them free will. Rom 8:20 is about future glory not about lack of free will. It is talking about the creation, NOT the created.

Adam chose to obey God, just as Eve chose not to obey. We all make choices. As there was only ONE command from God, Adam and Eve could not have sinned before Eve broke that command. Them being naked before that was NOT sinful.

Rom 9 has nothing to do with free will, it is about God's design and promise based on His foreknowledge.

lforrest · May 16, 2014

StanJ said:
I appreciate your fervor, but can you cite and scripture that confirms this?

If I may take the initiative, here is one scripture: 1 Peter 1:17-21

[SIZE=.75em]17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors,[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lambwithout blemish or defect.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.[/SIZE]

nothead · May 16, 2014

Hey nothead-
[SIZE=14pt]Gods Sovereign will is only one way:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] You can call me all you want. I believe that Jesus is the only way (which unitarainism does not believe). Faith in Him is from Him:[/SIZE]

But what is it that makes Jesus the only Way? I really don't know how you see this. Could be this way, could be that way.

[SIZE=14pt]"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] [not faith ‘IN’ the Son of God, but the very faith ‘OF’ the Son of God—it is His faith, not ours until He gives us some of it[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]] Who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).[/SIZE]

Christ indwelling you is the very Holy Spirit of his Father, come in the name of the Son. "Yahushua." Two referents. One Spirit. And? So what are you saying? Where do we differ?

[SIZE=14pt]Where in the bible does it say we are responsible? According to the Word we should [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]“give an accounting”. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]BIG DIFFERENCE.[/SIZE]

What kind of retort is this? You are not responsible for your sin? Huh?

[SIZE=14pt]We will all give an accounting for what God has done in our bodies:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]This will extend down to “every idle word” we may speak:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.[/SIZE]

And?

[SIZE=14pt]And yes, God will judge us according to what is written in our book:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]But whatever any of us do, as referenced above, it was already written in His book before any of our days ever were:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.[/SIZE]

What a weird dude you are, sir. Your theology is far beyond the pale. Beyond even argument it would seem. We are all pre-existent okay. We are all headed for joy or suffering, okay...so then what are you telling me I don't know?

That is why we are told that we will “give an accounting” as opposed to being told that we are held accountable. This may be simple semantics to many, but the dictionaries, as you point out, say that accountable and responsible are synonymous, and it is for that reason that I simply point out that the scriptures do not say “hold accountable” anywhere. Instead they consistently say “give an accounting” everywhere.

Shame is shame. Guilt is guilt. Do bad, feel guilty. Do good feel good. What is your problem? Why you insert God into everything? HE isn't the one who did it.

But my point is Joseph’s and Paul’s point. The reason we never see the phrase “hold accountable” is that “It is not I that do [ those works] but God”, be they good or evil:

Omg. You are flying way over nothead's nothead. Whoo hoo. I hope you happy, crazy.

Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.
Rom 7:20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present.

The two opposing natures of men. Yeah you do it, you suffer for it. Easy. Paul ain't saying what you think.

Who is the Holy Spirit???? GOD!:

Sent by God you mean. Come in the spirit of Elijah, then not exactly God. Sent by God "in the name of Elijah." Sent to us in "the name of Jesus."

[SIZE=14pt]Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]This is you during this whole discussion:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:19-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]And this is Paul’s reply to you: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:20[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]You can try to be all wise and knowing, but I am laying out scripture after scripture and you still try to against Gods Word. Who did the Lord come to seek? The wise or the stupid?:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1Co 1:25-29-
The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Humble yourself to the creator OF ALL THINGS.[/SIZE]

These scriptures were laid out for you to understand God is Sovereign, not that you are not to do your part in Covenant.

So then you do understand, but Paul said these things also in order for you never ever to go there, questioning his Sovereign will. Why? Why since you are responsible for your actions in some way or form, somehow.

It is not humble to say you are not accountable, not at all. If you are not accountable then God is a sinner, who makes you sin. The biblical model is that God hardens a man's heart, but somehow he has a way out, or a way not to pay the bribe.

How that way is, may not ever be known by the subject, but it was there. Until he messes up over the edge into oblivion anyway.

The biblical model is that God may actually determine all things as you say, but that man is in fact accountable. How it comes together I repeat you or I cannot know.

Will is not free necessarily, but our will is the fulcrum out of darkness. Attended will in the ideal sense is will vested with the Holy Spirit of God. Sovereign will can go either way, like I said.

"I will harden whom I will harden."

This is the way we pray the God of us will not lead us. You present only one side of the equation. Covenant takes both sides, God and you. God verse in the sovereign sense is true. Man verse in the ACCOUNTABLE sense is true.

StanJ · May 16, 2014

lforrest said:
If I may take the initiative, here is one scripture: 1 Peter 1:17-21

[SIZE=.75em]17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors,[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lambwithout blemish or defect.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.[/SIZE]

Sorry but that does not teach we are going to heaven when we die.

JoJoRoss · May 16, 2014

Yes God did, but still gave them free will. Rom 8:20 is about future glory not about lack of free will. It is talking about the creation, NOT the created.

Adam chose to obey God, just as Eve chose not to obey. We all make choices. As there was only ONE command from God, Adam and Eve could not have sinned before Eve broke that command. Them being naked before that was NOT sinful.

Rom 9 has nothing to do with free will, it is about God's design and promise based on His foreknowledge.

Hey StanJ,

Yes God did...but you don't want to believe that.

Back to Adam and Eve. I explained this early on a previous thread, here it is again:

Was it Eve’s will from the beginning ("free" or otherwise), that she would eat the forbidden fruit? No, it wasn’t. Let’s read it:

"Now the serpent was more subtle [cunning] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, Ye [you and your husband] shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Eve was not yet deceived: she was not as yet caused to disobey God. She set the serpent straight by telling him that his statement wasn’t completely true. They could eat of all of the fruit in the garden EXCEPT ONE. Eve was okay with that commandment from God. Well why did she then eat of the forbidden fruit? WHAT CHANGED?

Did Eve’s "heart" change? No, she had the same heart she was created with.

Did Eve’s "mind" change? Yes it did.

Did Eve’s "will" change? Yes, of course it did.

Now for the "sixty-four thousand dollar question." WHAT changed Eve’s mind and will? Even though Eve had a deceitful heart, there was something else that CAUSED her to change or mind and her will regarding the forbidden fruit. The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will. Eve did not "freely" will to sin. Her choice to sin was not "free" from an external cause. IT WAS CAUSED, and when something is CAUSED to happen, it could not have been "free" to NOT HAPPEN.

"But I fear, lest by any means, AS the serpent BEGUILED

[Gk: ‘DECEIVED’] Eve through HIS subtlety [craftiness]…" (II Cor. 11:3).

Where do you see one single word here to the effect that Eve deceived HERSELF, or caused HERSELF to sin, or "freely" willed HERSELF into a different frame of mind WITHOUT A CAUSE StanJ?

Gods Peace,
JoJo

[SIZE=medium]But what is it that makes Jesus the only Way? I really don't know how you see this. Could be this way, could be that way.[/SIZE]

nothead,

[SIZE=14pt]Haha how can YOU not see this? Who makes Jesus the Way??? Hmmmm….what does the Word say:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Acts 2:36-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that GOD HATH MADE the same JESUS, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Stop trying to put me into a category nothead. Sects our works of the flesh. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Christ indwelling you is the very Holy Spirit of his Father, come in the name of the Son. "Yahushua." Two referents. One Spirit. And? So what are you saying? Where do we differ?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]This is in reference to you thinking it is JUST YOUR FAITH that you count on…this scripture is saying that the FAITH OF CHRIST IS HOW YOU HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST. Count on the FAITH OF CHRIST nothead. Again:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]For it has been granted to you on BEHALF OF CHRIST[Christ not us] not only TO BELIEVE IN HIM[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], but also to suffer for him, (Philip 1:29).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]What kind of retort is this? You are not responsible for your sin? Huh?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Rom 7:20 But if what I would not, that I do[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], it is no more I that do it[/SIZE], but sin which dwelleth in me.

[SIZE=14pt]God gave us to sin. No one chooses good. Only God. God chooses. We are to give an account to God. Pray, ponder and seek. It takes time. A LOT OF TIME to see Gods truth:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psalms 90:12http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-90-12/[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] - So teach [us] to number our days, that we may apply [our] hearts unto wisdom.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And?[/SIZE]

Hebrews 4:12-For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

[SIZE=large]What a weird dude you are, sir. Your theology is far beyond the pale. Beyond even argument it would seem. We are all pre-existent okay. We are all headed for joy or suffering, okay...so then what are you telling me I don't know?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Then how can we be responsible? You are saying we are responsible. We are not. God knew all along what we would do. It would not be justice if God would deem us responsible. So God says we are to GIVE AN ACCOUNT of our lives. Why?:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance;[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them (GOD KNOWS AND DOES DO EVERYTHING)[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Shame is shame. Guilt is guilt. Do bad, feel guilty. Do good feel good. What is your problem? Why you insert God into everything? HE isn't the one who did it. Omg. You are flying way over nothead's nothead. Whoo hoo. I hope you happy, crazy.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Do you believe scripture?:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 45:7-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] do all these things.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The two opposing natures of men. Yeah you do it, you suffer for it. Easy. Paul ain't saying what you think.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]There is only one nature in men: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Psalms 51:5http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-51-5/[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in SIN did my mother conceive me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Sent by God you mean. Come in the spirit of Elijah, then not exactly God. Sent by God "in the name of Elijah." Sent to us in "the name of Jesus."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Yes sent. But God none the less. Read that verse again. Pray, ponder and seek. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]These scriptures were laid out for you to understand God is Sovereign, not that you are not to do your part in Covenant.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]So then you do understand, but Paul said these things also in order for you never ever to go there, questioning his Sovereign will. Why? Why since you are responsible for your actions in some way or form, somehow.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]It is not humble to say you are not accountable, not at all. If you are not accountable then God is a sinner, who makes you sin. The biblical model is that God hardens a man's heart, but somehow he has a way out, or a way not to pay the bribe. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]How that way is, may not ever be known by the subject, but it was there. Until he messes up over the edge into oblivion anyway.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The biblical model is that God may actually determine all things as you say, but that man is in fact accountable. How it comes together I repeat you or I cannot know.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Will is not free necessarily, but our will is the fulcrum out of darkness. Attended will in the ideal sense is will vested with the Holy Spirit of God. Sovereign will can go either way, like I said.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]"I will harden whom I will harden."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is the way we pray the God of us will not lead us. You present only one side of the equation. Covenant takes both sides, God and you. God verse in the sovereign sense is true. Man verse in the ACCOUNTABLE sense is true.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]It is humbling. I still hold to the covenant of God. Did you get that-the covenant of GOD…not us. You still think you are the captain of the ship. It’s up to you right? You name all these different type of wills. No matter what you are calling it, you are declaring a Free Will away from Gods Will. The things we do: call out to God, choose to do the right things, love our enemies, all these things are imputed in us by God. God knows the plans for us. Because of this, we call to him:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Jeremiah 29:11-13-For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. THEN (see that! Cause and Effect) you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Can you see? The covenant of God to us is because of GOD! Pray, ponder and seek. I once thought like you did. I struggled with it alongggg timeeee. But God gave me eyes to see and ears to hear. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Praise to God,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

"Free" Will

New Member

Lifelong student of God's Word.

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Lifelong student of God's Word.

New Member

Fishin Everyday

Lifelong student of God's Word.

Fishin Everyday

New Member

New Member

Lifelong student of God's Word.

New Member

Lifelong student of God's Word.

Well-Known Member

New Member

Lifelong student of God's Word.

New Member

Similar threads