"Free" Will

JoJoRoss said:

Hey StanJ,
Yes God did...but you don't want to believe that.
Back to Adam and Eve. I explained this early on a previous thread, here it is again:
Was it Eve’s will from the beginning ("free" or otherwise), that she would eat the forbidden fruit? No, it wasn’t. Let’s read it:
"Now the serpent was more subtle [cunning] than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, has God said, Ye [you and your husband] shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
Eve was not yet deceived: she was not as yet caused to disobey God. She set the serpent straight by telling him that his statement wasn’t completely true. They could eat of all of the fruit in the garden EXCEPT ONE. Eve was okay with that commandment from God. Well why did she then eat of the forbidden fruit? WHAT CHANGED?
Did Eve’s "heart" change? No, she had the same heart she was created with.
Did Eve’s "mind" change? Yes it did.
Did Eve’s "will" change? Yes, of course it did.
Now for the "sixty-four thousand dollar question." WHAT changed Eve’s mind and will? Even though Eve had a deceitful heart, there was something else that CAUSED her to change or mind and her will regarding the forbidden fruit. The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will. Eve did not "freely" will to sin. Her choice to sin was not "free" from an external cause. IT WAS CAUSED, and when something is CAUSED to happen, it could not have been "free" to NOT HAPPEN.
"But I fear, lest by any means, AS the serpent BEGUILED
[Gk: ‘DECEIVED’] Eve through HIS subtlety [craftiness]…" (II Cor. 11:3).
Where do you see one single word here to the effect that Eve deceived HERSELF, or caused HERSELF to sin, or "freely" willed HERSELF into a different frame of mind WITHOUT A CAUSE StanJ?
Gods Peace,
JoJo

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Sorry your first sentence seems to be out of context...yes God did what? Are you agreeing that God gave Adam and Eve free will?

Actually if you look at what Eve did say it was an embellishment. God never said "neither shall you touch it". The fact is God instructed Adam, not Eve, and we are not told what Adam actually told Eve, but it appears that Eve added this bit to lend strength to God and her own feelings of weakness.

I'm not really sure what your point is about human nature, when the issue in discussion is free will? No one has advocated that Adam and Eve were spiritually perfect when they were made, but God still saw they were "very good". Gen 1:31
Eve's problem was not that she deceitful, it was that she was not sure or convinced that what her husband told her was true. Her real sin was not listening to her husband as her spiritual leader.
God made Eve to be his SUITABLE helper. NOT his PERFECT helper. The cause was indeed Eve allowing herself to believe the enemy and not fully trust her husband, plus she did not consult him. As a couple, she needed him to resist the enemy and did not solicit his help. They were a unit but she acted independently. Basically she did not understand or accept her role as Adam's helper/confidant.
None of this depicts lack of free will, in fact it shows clearly she made choices and that can only happen IF we have free will.

Thank you folks for caring!

I nornally have to agree to disagree, ie, a miracle that I cannot find one discrepancy with JoJoRoss's last two posts?

Old scrutinizer Jack

JoJoRoss said:

[SIZE=14pt]Hey StanJ,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]You wrote:[/SIZE] Yes God did, but still gave them free will.

[SIZE=14pt]This is a response to what I posted (I believe): [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]God knew what Adam and Eve were going to choose. Because…:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Now, if God knew what Adam and Eve were going to choose (which you agree with) then how in the world can you say: but still gave them free will???? That is not logical StanJ. Can you not see that? Human nature is exactly the point with Gods will:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 3:10-11-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I agree that Adam and Eve weren’t made perfect. They were very good to God (like everything else He created). Why? This is all about glorifying Gods power by creating us. That is what is very good. The scripture above states: NONE seek after God. Wouldn’t Paul have said “except for Adam and Eve” if free will was true? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]You write:[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] The cause was indeed Eve allowing herself to believe the enemy and not fully trust her husband, plus she did not consult him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]We have a will StanJ, but it is not free from Gods Sovereignty. No one is good. God knew Eve would listen to satan. The enemy was the cause. God put the enemy there with Eve. God knew it all along. Gods knows everything:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Matt 10:29-30-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father (Wait! But you say God can’t do that). But the very hairs of your head are all numbered (He KNOWS what you are going to do).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You wrote: None of this depicts lack of free will, in fact it shows clearly she made choices and that can only happen IF we have free will.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I am sorry but you are going against the Word of God:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Pro 20:24 Man’s goings are of the LORD[/SIZE]; how can a man then understand his own way?

[SIZE=14pt]It is all God StanJ. ALL OF IT.[/SIZE]


Gods Peace,
JoJo

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Aah OK... doesn't really change anything. God's foreknowledge has NOTHING to do with us having free will. Throughout scripture we are commanded and instructed. God's will is His will and it is not always done obviously. Man's is free to disregard it and do what he wants. That also does not mean there are no repercussions. The law of sowing and reaping is always in effect for believers and unbelievers.
Good has nothing to do with God's will. Jesus was good yet He still followed the Father's will.
You have not shown any scripture that shows we do not have free will. You may have eisegeted some as such, but until you properly exegete scripture to support your POV, you have failed to do so.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17398-god-over-free-will-take-2/

I wrote a bit on this discussion here in the past...

justaname said:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17398-god-over-free-will-take-2/

I wrote a bit on this discussion here in the past...

Click to expand...

IMO, it would be best for you to contribute here rather than try to continue a year old thread. The OP doesn't require a thesis.

[SIZE=medium]"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [‘that faith’] not of yourselves [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).[/SIZE]

Free Will is NOT biblical.

[SIZE=12pt]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]JoJo:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Your quote above from Ephesians, is not to Scripture. The italics are your inserts, which are false interpretation![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Freewill is an essential part of God's Plan of Salvation; to deny that, is to deny God, and give Satan victory and advantage. It is the part of us that Satan tried to capture from Eve and Adam at the Eden stage; but allowed through death brought in, for the promise of Christ Jesus in the statement of Gen. 3:15![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Even under the duress of death; which Eden allowed, the love of God shows![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The following Links give comments on this subject; which I hope eases your pain.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Free will:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Freewill (predestination)[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Call of God:[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Elect Calvin onwards; [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Elect (Rev.7); [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The legitimate and illegitimate works teaching. (Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

Eve was not yet deceived: she was not as yet caused to disobey God. She set the serpent straight by telling him that his statement wasn’t completely true. They could eat of all of the fruit in the garden EXCEPT ONE. Eve was okay with that commandment from God. Well why did she then eat of the forbidden fruit? WHAT CHANGED?


Did Eve’s "heart" change? No, she had the same heart she was created with.

Did Eve’s "mind" change? Yes it did.

Did Eve’s "will" change? Yes, of course it did.


Now for the "sixty-four thousand dollar question." WHAT changed Eve’s mind and will? Even though Eve had a deceitful heart, there was something else that CAUSED her to change or mind and her will regarding the forbidden fruit. The Apostle Paul plainly tells us what CAUSED Eve to change her mind and her will. Eve did not "freely" will to sin. Her choice to sin was not "free" from an external cause. IT WAS CAUSED, and when something is CAUSED to happen, it could not have been "free" to NOT HAPPEN.

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Hogwash. Eve sinned. Simple. You make a simple thing hard. Who has the nothead anyhow? You just thought yourself into hell.

And why is this? We go to hell, suffer thirst and pain, for ANY length of time much less the ages of the ages...and God did it?

No, the whole story of Adam and Eve is that they sinned our sin, the sin which we would sin if we were them. And we are to suffer for it. The world suffers for it.

Shame and ashes. On your head. Repentance and tears. In your eyes. Retrition in your mouth and forgiveness your only hope.

Whatever you are spewing ain't the gospel. And Shurt should know this he who TOUTS repentance.

You know not repentance or fear or love. You are a lobot. Period.

"But I fear, lest by any means, AS the serpent BEGUILED

[Gk: ‘DECEIVED’] Eve through HIS subtlety [craftiness]…" (II Cor. 11:3).

Where do you see one single word here to the effect that Eve deceived HERSELF, or caused HERSELF to sin, or "freely" willed HERSELF into a different frame of mind WITHOUT A CAUSE StanJ?

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Presupposition, and common sense, sir.

We PRESUPPOSE our will, and our soul and this uniquely compared to any other one.

This is because God breathed into you and no one else these things. You GLOSS them all into the Sovereign will of God, which you

1) have no CONTROL over
2) have no inkling of, whether to know the MECHANISM of, the DYNAMICS of, the POWER(s) of, or the ELEMENTS and VARIABLES of

Sovereign Will is by definition wholly abstract, and the only thing the Bible does is AFFIRM it. So then affirm it. This does not NEGATE individual will.

You have this EITHER/OR thing going on, which isn't true. It is not EITHER God's will or man's will. It is BOTH man's will and God's will.

nothead,

[SIZE=14pt]Haha how can YOU not see this? Who makes Jesus the Way??? Hmmmm….what does the Word say:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Acts 2:36-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that GOD HATH MADE the same JESUS, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Stop trying to put me into a category nothead. Sects our works of the flesh.[/SIZE]

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[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]
So what? I am not disputing this. I am unitarian, pentecostally so.

[SIZE=14pt]This is in reference to you thinking it is JUST YOUR FAITH that you count on…this scripture is saying that the FAITH OF CHRIST IS HOW YOU HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST. Count on the FAITH OF CHRIST nothead. Again:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]For it has been granted to you on BEHALF OF CHRIST[Christ not us] not only TO BELIEVE IN HIM[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], but also to suffer for him, (Philip 1:29).[/SIZE]

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It was Christ's faith that justifies you? Huh? He is he. You are you. God made you not him. God made him not you. Gooberated. Thank you for your goober. It does no man any good whatsoever.

[SIZE=14pt]Rom 7:20 But if what I would not, that I do[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], it is no more I that do it[/SIZE], but sin which dwelleth in me.

[SIZE=14pt]God gave us to sin. No one chooses good. Only God. God chooses. We are to give an account to God. Pray, ponder and seek. It takes time. A LOT OF TIME to see Gods truth:[/SIZE]

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He is telling you to no longer identify with your flesh nature, since the Grace of God gives you a way out. No more no less. You have this intellectual
obsession with being a lobot who HAS no intellect. You are not you. You a cog in the machine. No SELF consciousness. No SELF awareness. No sense of PERSONAL responsibility. No self whatsoever.

Hey I want revelation, it won't be me revelating. This is pure pantheism. All things are one. God.

You are among Hindus and gnostics of the worst kind. You are evil this way comes.

[SIZE=14pt]Psalms 90:12[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] - So teach [us] to number our days, that we may apply [our] hearts unto wisdom.[/SIZE]





Hebrews 4:12-For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

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Yeah, you heart pantheistic. Nuevo heepy. Smoke de weed and be happy, along with munchies attendant.

[SIZE=14pt]Then how can we be responsible? You are saying we are responsible. We are not. God knew all along what we would do. It would not be justice if God would deem us responsible. So God says we are to GIVE AN ACCOUNT of our lives. Why?:[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance;[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them (GOD KNOWS AND DOES DO EVERYTHING)[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Do you believe scripture?:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Isaiah 45:7-[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] do all these things.[/SIZE]

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I believe scripture. I believe both sovereign will and human will. I believe my human will is not your human will. And I believe the personal aspect of it puts me into pain or spiritual (ecstatical) pleasure.

I have known of the Joy Inexpressible. I know that I can deny this same drawing of the Holy Spirit indwelling. I can even deny it came from God.

All to my own detriment. Hope springs eternal, and this eternal hope is for the same Joy in Heaven, amen.

[SIZE=medium]There is only one nature in men: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Psalms 51:5http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Psalms-51-5/[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in SIN did my mother conceive me.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=14pt]Yes sent. But God none the less. Read that verse again. Pray, ponder and seek. [/SIZE]

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Compared to God there is nothing good in men, but to say we are only carnal is also narrow minded, sir. Don't be narrow. Expand your mind.

Take LSD. No, I mean allow for more options.

It is humbling. I still hold to the covenant of God. Did you get that-the covenant of GOD…not us. You still think you are the captain of the ship. It’s up to you right?

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There you go again with either/or. I don't THINK the way you think I think. YOU are narrow and focused on this EITHER God OR me being a CAPTAIN of our destiny.

It isn't that way. The Bible says three things about it. 1) You are responsible for your own sin. Jesus' own brother in blood said this.

[SIZE=.75em]12 [/SIZE]Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
[SIZE=.75em]13 [/SIZE]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

2) God's will is determinate. Your own verses prove
3) We cannot know how it works together. We are not the FORMER of clay but the FORMED of clay.

So then you negate number (1) above. You are SIN personified. You sir need to repent and it means YOU not God.

[SIZE=14pt]You name all these different type of wills. No matter what you are calling it, you are declaring a Free Will away from Gods Will. The things we do: call out to God, choose to do the right things, love our enemies, all these things are imputed in us by God. God knows the plans for us. Because of this, we call to him:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Jeremiah 29:11-13-For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. THEN (see that! Cause and Effect) you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. [/SIZE]

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No, I have received the Baptism of Spirit and know internally there is ideal will as opposed to end-game UNATTAINABLE BY DEFINITION will.

The Holy Spirit is said to be indwelt all believers IN FULLNESS, as prayer and hope. This is because it is the IDEAL will of YHWH Elohim, not his sovereign will.

Sovereign will is only affirmed no more no less. It cannot be I repeat, TAPPED INTO. No matter WHAT gnosis you speak of, this is not a Mystery or a Conundrum. Like I said over and over for YOU who are missing out on YOURSELF, that is your OWN self, whom God made like no one else...

...mind your own business. Do good, love God most of all, and get life.

Get life. WILL to get life. WILL with your UTTERMOST to get life. Life is the love of YHWH Elohim. And then give back this life which was given you.

See, the unbeliever cannot HEP himself by your paradigm. HEP momma HEP youself HEP momma HEP youself.

You have no gospel for him, since you haven't the gospel in your heart. You think the Word you spew is all, when you spew God's part. Not yours and not man's.

Man's side is his own will. Your side is your own will. The verses which ADDRESS your will do so for a reason. USE IT.

Can you see? The covenant of God to us is because of GOD! Pray, ponder and seek. I once thought like you did. I struggled with it alongggg timeeee. But God gave me eyes to see and ears to hear.

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Your revelation is no revelation at all for a pentecostal. He has received the supernatural Joy of the Spirit. I don't think you have, it would seem by your words.

Let me tell you nothing you can drum up in your head compares to God's Joy.

Floyd said:

[SIZE=medium][/SIZE]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that

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[‘that faith’] not of yourselves [NOT of your own faith or will] it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).

Thank you for caring!

You really messed the former up, ie, "and this not from yourselves." The neuter touto does not refer to pistis or to xaris, both of which are feminine, but to the divine act of saving us: this tht you have been saved, ie, the source and origin is not in you; it's wholly and only in God.



Free Will is NOT biblical.

[SIZE=12pt]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

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Hey the former here is valid, ie, good job! One out of two. "Free-will" if fallacious as all have an "enslaved-will."

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

JoJo:

Click to expand...

[SIZE=12pt]Your quote above from Ephesians, is not to Scripture. The italics are your inserts, which are false interpretation![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Freewill is an essential part of God's Plan of Salvation; to deny that, is to deny God, and give Satan victory and advantage. It is the part of us that Satan tried to capture from Eve and Adam at the Eden stage; but allowed through death brought in, for the promise of Christ Jesus in the statement of Gen. 3:15![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Even under the duress of death; which Eden allowed, the love of God shows![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The following Links give comments on this subject; which I hope eases your pain.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Free will:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Freewill (predestination)[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Call of God:[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Elect Calvin onwards; [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Elect (Rev.7); [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The legitimate and illegitimate works teaching. (Separate study)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]


Old Jack

I believe we all have free will... If not, then God is responsible for sin. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you" (Matthew 6:14). Consider that forgiving others is a choice, and a condition of the Father forgiving us. Free will coincides with free choice, every decision we make substantiates free will. If we can choose and decide for ourselves, then we have the God given liberty of free will. If we aren't free to choose, then what's our purpose here? Without choices (free-will), we are robotic puppets who are preconditioned to fail, and life is not a test, but an exercise in futility jmo

Dan57 said:

I believe we all have free will... If not, then God is responsible for sin. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you" (Matthew 6:14). Consider that forgiving others is a choice, and a condition of the Father forgiving us. Free will coincides with free choice, every decision we make substantiates free will. If we can choose and decide for ourselves, then we have the God given liberty of free will. If we aren't free to choose, then what's our purpose here? Without choices (free-will), we are robotic puppets who are preconditioned to fail, and life is not a test, but an exercise in futility jmo

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And yet God hardens the heart of whom He will...is this HEART of man mutually exclusive of his WILL?? The key here is to affirm WILL yet no knowing how it is FREE or not, FREE will being a term not found in the Holy Scriptures.

JoJoRoss said:

[SIZE=14pt]Satan caused eve to sin. If Satan wasn’t there, she would not have sinned. Who put Satan there? God. Cause and effect equal no kind of free will. We have a will. But it is not free from Gods Sovereignty. He knows what we are going to do because He is the master of all things. I am tired of repeating myself. No one does good not one, No one seeks God not one (this means Adam, Eve, me and you buddy). I am clay to God. You are clay to God. God marred some vessels (Jer 18:4). God made some vessels for His glory. Jesus died for sinners…SINNERS! I am so thankful that God saved a wretch like me…you should be too. Give glory to Him…not you…[/SIZE]



[SIZE=14pt]You wrong Nothead. It is ALL God’s Sovereign Will that gets the job done…not ours:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Romans 9:16-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]You know what I am? A sinner saved by God’s grace. What does sect does that put me into? [/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]Umm yes…it was CHRISTS FAITH that enables me to have faith in Him (Phil 1:29). You don’t believe in scripture?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]God gave me ALL those things that you are laying out here…did you catch that…GOD GAVE ME ALL THOSE THINGS! What do you think I just sit and wait? Come on now. Scripture says go and do! I use my brain of course. If I didn’t I would be dead. It just amazes me that you think God does not have 100% control over everything (self consciousness, self awareness, etc.)? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Our flesh nature yes. But what other nature do we have? Again no one chooses good and no one seeks God? I am just giving God ALL THE GLORY…sue me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Thanks for your honesty. Keep on hating. It seems I am doing something right:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I’ll keep enduring [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]Yes you can do all these things. But it is not separated from Gods will. We do because he allows us to do. He leads us to repentance remember? Don’t despise it please:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Or despise you the riches of HIS goodness[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADS you to repentance?" [/SIZE](Rom. 2:4).


[SIZE=12pt]We are only carnal:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1 Corinthians 2:14[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned[/SIZE].


[SIZE=14pt]God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL-- MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN. God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. God put the serpent there and her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]A lot of spirits out there nothead. Thank God for his Word (which tells us that). You can trample on it all you want. The Word is truth and it will set you free! We have a will nothead. I never denied that. You just think that will of yours is separate from God. Which is not truth. It looks like Gods will is still a mystery to you nothead. He let us know his mystery with this scripture:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will [/SIZE][God’s will is still a mystery to the world of Christendom], according to His good pleasure [‘For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure’—Phil. 2:13] which He has purposed in Himself [not in man’s fabled ‘free will’]: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE, ALL things in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH [that’s ALL the heavenly host and ALL humanity that has ever lived]; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance [in this age and this lifetime, ahead of the rest which must go through judgment first], being predestined according to the purpose of Him [not by the ‘maybe yes/maybe no’ uncertain shaky possibility of man’s supposed free will] Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9-11).


[SIZE=12pt]God has you where He wants you nothead. I pray that you will see His truth sooner than later. If you believe in an eternal hell, then that probably is the main reason why you can’t see this truth. God’s ultimate will:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1 Timothy 2:4[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]-Who will have all men to be saved[/SIZE], and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[SIZE=12pt]To Gods Will be done,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

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You right about one thing:

You just think that will of yours is separate from God.

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The nephesh God makes uniquely you and me is in fact somehow someway separate from Him.

He is not putting HIMSELF in hell, as He has no lie in Him.

He is putting YOU in Hell and it is you not Him who will suffer the thirst.

How it all works, and how it is separate is not known by you or by me, but it comes down to basic peshat language and law...I am not you am not God and God is not me or you. I am I and you are you. And God is God.

You thought yourself into a corner where you can't get out. Your thinking is destructive, detrimental to the human race and simply wrong.

JoJoRoss said:

[SIZE=medium]StanJ and Floyd,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I want you both to reply to this please. I am sorry, but I have laid out scripture after scripture that proves it is ALL GODS WILL and not our FREE will. I only have to lay out one passage of scripture to prove this, but you don’t want to believe it:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Romans 9:11-16-though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad —in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls (Did you catch that StanJ? You are saying that free will is a work, BUT God says: NO! IT IS I WHO CALL FOR MY PURPOSE!)— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[/SIZE] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”(Wow. This is before they were even born. God is telling us HE KNEW what Jacob would be/do and what Esau would be/do…no free will whatsoever).
[SIZE=medium]What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? (This is what you are saying and claiming…we NEED free will or God is not fair…what does Paul say?) By no means!(Nope. No injustice on Gods part…so you better reevaluate your carnal interpretation).[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]So then it depends not on human will or exertion [/SIZE][SIZE=medium](DID YOU CATCH THAT SIR? IT DOES NOT DEPEND ON HUMAN WILL…NO FREE WILL!),[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]but on God, who has mercy (BUT IT DEPENDS ON GOD!!! IT IS GODS WILL!).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Gods Peace,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]JoJo[/SIZE]

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Laying out scripture without proper exegesis means very little.

I am NOT saying free will is a work, I am saying we choose Jesus or we reject Him. I have already given you Rom 10:9-11 and you seem to ignore it and infer that Rom 9 takes precedent, when it doesn't. Paul in chapter 9 is dealing with Jews who thought they were special and didn't like that Gentiles were also called and Paul is teaching it's up to God who He OFFERS salvation to, not who He forces to be saved.

God's plan had nothing to do with any WORK of man, but as with ANY gift, WE have to accept it to make it ours. If we are responsible for our sins, and we are, then we are also responsible to confess our sins just as we are responsible to confess our savior. It's all about God telling us what needs to be done and our obeying Him. That is OUR free will.

If we ARE created in God's image, then we have the same free will He does. It's quite simple and requires no equivocation about words.

satan and hell are defintely for real....

James 4:8

The closer you draw to Christ the closer He comes to you.

You don't come to know God without coming to know your advesary.

They go hand in hand.

When you give your life to Christ it's only then when you will learn how to battle this enemy.

Some say "I don't give satan the time of day" HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! then that means he already has you where he wants you.

The great deciever is very good at what he does. There is no truth in him.

have any of you ever seen a demon?.............It really strengthens your faith towards Christ when you do....and.......no questions are ever asked again if there is a hell or not.
YOU KNOW FOR SURE THERE IS


People get so hung up in the scriptures..........they never venture out to see the things of God.....of course that's the last thing satan would want you to do.
Just stay confused in the scriptures................all wrapped up in them...................BUT.......satan says.....whatever you do.....don't ask God if what I've been taught is right.....that's a big no no in satans book.

Talk to God.......even it takes hours or days................you want to be right don't you?...you want to know for sure don't you?

people talk as if God is alive.......................then treat Him that way.

Invite Him over...................................That is if you're not afraid of one of the greatest parties you would have ever attended.

From JoJoRoss:


[SIZE=14pt]There is no “Hell” in the bible. Sheol/Hades(grave/unseen), Gehenna (Judgement by fire first with House of God then White Throne), and tartarus-[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]means "abyss--a place of restraint,". So if you are regarding Hades where all the dead go, then if I die before Jesus comes, then yes He is putting me there. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]I agree with you on this JoJo.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Satan is real, but not "hell" the way it has been misconstrued and taught for so long; see Hell; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]

Ok Nothead, but how do we will?:

"No man CAN come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me draw [Gk: ‘drag’] him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). This verse is plain: "No man CAN…" come to Christ of his own will. It is the Father "dragging" him that is the cause of one coming to Christ, not his own supposed free will.

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So what did the Father look like?