"Free" Will

tooldtocare · Jul 15, 2015

Doug_E_Fresh said:
It should be since that means that your God isn't loving everyone as He claims to. He puts some in hell on purpose? how is that loving?

@thread:

This topic as a whole really isn't that complicated if you approach it correctly.
The question hinges on a simpler one: "Can God make you sin? or do you choose to sin against Him?" Scripture is very clear on this. If God isn't making all your choices for you, including making you sin, that means you have free will. REAL free will.

If you want more proof: How can you be in relationship with Christ at all if He is controlling you completely? Relationships require love both ways. Love is given, not taken. God can't make you love Him, or it's not love.

But, that doesn't mean He doesn't have sovereignty of your life either. His foreknowledge of events makes it unnecessary, but not impossible, for Him to intervene in your life since He knows what you will ultimately choose.

Somethings just need repeating.,.,..,.

Don't you agree-?

Just asking

-

tooldtocare · Jul 15, 2015

Doug_E_Fresh said:
It should be since that means that your God isn't loving everyone as He claims to. He puts some in hell on purpose? how is that loving?

@thread:

[This topic as a whole really isn't that complicated if you approach it correctly.

The question hinges on a simpler one: "Can God make you sin? or do you choose to sin against Him?" Scripture is very clear on this. If God isn't making all your choices for you, including making you sin, that means you have free will. REAL free will.

If you want more proof: How can you be in relationship with Christ at all if He is controlling you completely? Relationships require love both ways. Love is given, not taken. God can't make you love Him, or it's not love.

But, that doesn't mean He doesn't have sovereignty of your life either. His foreknowledge of events makes it unnecessary, but not impossible, for Him to intervene in your life since He knows what you will ultimately choose.]

He gives us "reasoning" which continues to help solve the riddle that composes our universe & beyond..,.,./.,..

Don't you agree-?

Just asking -

btw it is in our genes toooooooooo..,

-

tooldtocare · Jul 16, 2015

A gene is a locushttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_(genetics) (or region) of DNA that encodes a functional RNA or protein product, and is the molecular unit ofheredity.[1][2]:Glossary The transmission of genes to an organism's offspring is the basis of the inheritance ofphenotypic traits. Most biological traits are under the influence of polygenes (many different genes) as well as the gene–environment interactions. Some genetic traits are instantly visible, such as eye colour or number of limbs, and some are not, such as blood type, risk for specific diseases, or the thousands of basic biochemical processes that comprise life.
Genes can acquire mutationshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation in their sequence, leading to different variants, known as alleles, in the population. These alleles encode slightly different versions of a protein, which cause different phenotype traits. Colloquial usage of the term "having a gene" (e.g., "good genes," "hair colour gene") typically refers to having a different allele of the gene. Genes evolvedue to natural selection or survival of the fittest of the alleles.
The concept of a gene continues to be refined as new phenomena are discovered.[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene#cite_note-Gericke-3 For example, regulatory regions of a gene can be far removed from its coding regions, and coding regions can be split into several exons. Some viruses store their genome in RNA instead of DNA and some gene products are functional non-coding RNAs. Therefore a broad, modern working definition of a gene is any discrete locus of heritable, genomic sequence which affect an organism's traits by beingexpressed as a functional product or by Regulation of gene expression.[4][5]

-

tooldtocare · Jul 16, 2015

Here it's Thursday, July 16, 2015AD
12:12 AM
7/16/2015

0-

whitestone · Jul 16, 2015

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I chose Life!

tooldtocare · Jul 16, 2015

whitestone said:
Since the term 'free will' isn't in scriptures, it's a moot point.

Whether some haven't been given a "choice" or not in this world isn't my concern.

What IS my concern is that I HAVE been given a choice. I've chosen Life. What choice have you chosen?

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

-

tooldtocare · Jul 16, 2015

whitestone said:
(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I chose Life!

Life is God's creation

-

tooldtocare · Jul 16, 2015

What you do with it is your business.,......,,.,.,.,..,.,..,..

-

HammerStone · Jul 16, 2015

For those who say that God does not or cannot know actions beforehand:

Acts 4:27-28
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Jesus would not have happened had God not known the hearts of those around him.

On this, Scripture seems clear in that God possesses foreknowledge in passages like Jeremiah 1:5, Ephesians 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:2. The question becomes, is this foreknowledge a(or the) determining factor of our decision, or is it simply a case of knowing our hearts so intimately that God could effectively make the decision for us and plan on the eventual decision?

I mean I am sorry, but the comments that say God doesn't know this beforehand are just not realistic based on what's stated on numerous occasions in the Bible. It's like the person I heard a while back who said "there's no such thing as predestination in the Bible!"

I think much of this stems from our understanding of freedom. I think most of us somewhat over-empirically define freedom as simply the availability of choice. I would call pure free will something that only God possesses since only He would have the power to make a decision not contingent upon anyone else. In our case (as humanity) our decisions impact those around us and the decisions of those around us impact us.

Doug_E_Fresh · Jul 16, 2015

@hammerstone

I agree about 99%. My only qualm is with:

God possesses since only He would have the power to make a decision not contingent upon anyone else.

My only problem with it is, I don't think it properly describes free will. It is my opinion that our selfish choices are only contingent on what we want, but I don't feel that the dependency on others prevents you from making a free willed choice (I don't know if my ramblings will make sense or not..).
I think that we are given free will as being made in the image of God. We use this will to deny Him, or accept Him. The ideas of predestination and free will are not in conflict, but in tension. You cannot have one without the other. So I would probably state free will as: we as humans are able to make free will choices without God's intervention or dependency on Him (sin), but to your point, only God is able to make "the most of free will" choices since He is the ultimate authority, timeless, unchanging, and omniscient.

whitestone · Jul 16, 2015

It is clear to me that God predestined Salvation in the predetermined Way.
As well it is clear that we each have a choice, if revealed this Way, to choose Life or choose death, just as He says.
It is a non-issue in scriptures, it is interesting why so many folk follow after Calvin on his tangent of incomprehension of such simplicity and soil themselves with this topic...

newbirth · Jul 17, 2015

JoJoRoss said:
[SIZE=medium] If anyone out there thinks we have "free" will, please let me know how you get by these verses:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Romans 9:11-23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]12 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]22 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]God's Peace,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Freedom is the ability to do what you ought to do..... not to do what you want to do...

newbirth · Jul 17, 2015

HammerStone said:
For those who say that God does not or cannot know actions beforehand:

Acts 4:27-28
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Jesus would not have happened had God not known the hearts of those around him.

On this, Scripture seems clear in that God possesses foreknowledge in passages like Jeremiah 1:5, Ephesians 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:2. The question becomes, is this foreknowledge a(or the) determining factor of our decision, or is it simply a case of knowing our hearts so intimately that God could effectively make the decision for us and plan on the eventual decision?

I mean I am sorry, but the comments that say God doesn't know this beforehand are just not realistic based on what's stated on numerous occasions in the Bible. It's like the person I heard a while back who said "there's no such thing as predestination in the Bible!"

I think much of this stems from our understanding of freedom. I think most of us somewhat over-empirically define freedom as simply the availability of choice. I would call pure free will something that only God possesses since only He would have the power to make a decision not contingent upon anyone else. In our case (as humanity) our decisions impact those around us and the decisions of those around us impact us.

God knowing what one will or will not do has nothing to do with freedom.....God knew Adam would have fallen....that is why Christ was ordained before the foundation of the world...
1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

He Gave Adam freedom to choose in the garden....Jesus died so we can obtain that same freedom...

John 8:36King James Version (KJV)
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

freedom is the ability to do what you ought to do ...not the ability to do what you want to do....that is the responsibility that comes with freedom....

OzSpen · Jul 17, 2015

JoJoRoss said:
[SIZE=medium] If anyone out there thinks we have "free" will, please let me know how you get by these verses:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Romans 9:11-23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]12 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]22 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]God's Peace,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

JoJo,

The early Church Fathers do not agree with your interpretation regarding free will. Here are but 2 examples:

1. Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165) in his Dialogue with Trypho wrote:

"God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God" (Dialogue CXLI, "Free-Will in Men and Angels," at: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.cxli.html ).

[SIZE=12pt]2. Irenaeus (ca. 130-200), Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter XXXVII.-"Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad," wrote: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]"This expression [of our Lord], 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,' set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves.... If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God" (37.1; 37.4) [available from: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vi.xxxviii.html].[/SIZE]

I can supply further examples, including affirmations of free will from Augustine. So, from those closest to the times of Jesus and the apostles did affirm free will.

Oz

newbirth · Jul 18, 2015

OzSpen said:
JoJo,

The early Church Fathers do not agree with your interpretation regarding free will. Here are but 2 examples:

1. Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165) in his Dialogue with Trypho wrote:
[SIZE=12pt]2. Irenaeus (ca. 130-200), Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter XXXVII.-"Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad," wrote: [/SIZE]

I can supply further examples, including affirmations of free will from Augustine. So, from those closest to the times of Jesus and the apostles did affirm free will.

Oz

God indeed made us free...but never without instructions...in what we ought to do and not to do...with freedom comes responsibility .... the kind of freedom that is in the mind of some is a freedom that does not exist....one is not free to live without the life that God gives....one is not free to stop breathing and still live...one is not free to stop his heart from beating and still ...live....so that kind of freedom is a myth ....the freedom that Christ speaks about is a power to do the will if God ....which we were unable to do because of the bondage of being born in sin..

Axehead · Jul 18, 2015

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Eze 20:39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, IF YE WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO ME: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

We do have free will because we can CHOOSE whom we will serve.

Sinners sell themselves into both the bondage and dominion of sin by CHOOSING to sin.

It is through the blood of Christ that Jesus bought us back from the dominion of sin and it is through repentance (dying with Christ) that we are set free from the bondage.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If we don't have free-will, then the Lord through His prophets is taunting men, and why would He do that?

newbirth · Jul 18, 2015

Axehead said:
1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Eze 20:39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, IF YE WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO ME: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.

We do have free will because we can CHOOSE whom we will serve.

Sinners sell themselves into both the bondage and dominion of sin by CHOOSING to sin.

It is through the blood of Christ that Jesus bought us back from the dominion of sin and it is through repentance (dying with Christ) that we are set free from the bondage.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If we don't have free-will, then the Lord through His prophets is taunting men, and why would He do that?

the power to choose and freewill are two different things....no man chose to be born after Adam ....it is God who concluded all under sin...therefore man was born in bondage to sin...freedom is not a void...one must be free from something.....Christ has made us free from the bondage of sin and death.....in order to accomplish this it is our responsibility to become a servant of righteousness....so that freedom which is given all that hype is a myth...

Born_Again · Jul 19, 2015

newbirth said:
the power to choose and freewill are two different things....no man chose to be born after Adam ....it is God who concluded all under sin...therefore man was born in bondage to sin...freedom is not a void...one must be free from something.....Christ has made us free from the bondage of sin and death.....in order to accomplish this it is our responsibility to become a servant of righteousness....so that freedom which is given all that hype is a myth...

Okay, but you are missing the point of the OP. Do we have Free Will. Yes. Like was mentioned in an earlier response. You can choose to serve God or serve yourself and the world. Free will is a core cause for evil in the world. If we didn't have free will we would have no choice but to abide in God's Love or His will forever without any say in the matter. We have the choice.. We have free will. Stop trying to muddy the water with side notes like "freedom". Now Please, Kindly return to the OP.

God Bless,
BA

tooldtocare · Jul 24, 2015

.,.,...,.,.,.,.,.,..,.,.,This is a Christian forum you may recall, there is a certain standard for how you conduct yourself here I believe.

To be yourself is to be you,.,.,.,.,., On the other hand; if you must follow a "standard" then you are no more than a puppet on a string. Still to converse with another it is best to follow ethical standards that your parents taught you as a child. If you maliciously offend others there is a good chance that person and others who read your comments may not want to talk to you again.

such is life, enjoy it while you can & hopefully with a smile

-

I believe it's written somewhere- Do Onto Others As you Would Have Them Do unto You

tooldtocare · Jul 24, 2015

Born_Again said:
.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,We have free will. Stop trying to muddy the water with side notes like "freedom". Now Please, Kindly return to the OP.

God Bless,
BA

As a bystander what does "OP" mean-? I want to assume you meant "Old Post"

Except when I was a child I asked my father what does "assume" mean.

His response was to ask me to spell out assume letter for letter

I spelled it Out to Him.,. letter by letter

A
S
S
U
M
E

Then the bell rang [ass out of you and me]

This was one lesson my father taught me at an early age and still at 65 I have to spell it out to myself from time to time, as I am here

Forgive my muddying the waters in you train of thoughts.

I had no choice,

For me to benefit from the letters, "assume" I had to put them up on this board/my monitor and read it again.

Fore give me,

-

"Free" Will

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

New Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

gяελ нατ jεsμs ƒяεακ

New Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Similar threads