"Free" Will

StanJ · Nov 19, 2015

newbirth said:
the bible says He ascended to His God...there is one God...

He also said He ascended to His Father and their Father. Again you strive about A word and don't see the comparative language being used. There IS one God, and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the ONE God, in unity and purpose and being. You inability to understand or accept this truth is Only your problem, not God's.
If you are going to say you believe what Jesus said, then why don't you believe ALL that Jesus said?
[SIZE=9pt]Jesus said:[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt] I and the Father are one.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Jesus said: If you've seen me you've seen the Father.[/SIZE]
Jesus said: If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
Jesus said: You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.
Jesus said: If you do not believe that I am He, you will indeed die in your sins.
Jesus said: You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Jesus said: Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

newbirth · Nov 19, 2015

StanJ said:
Actually it clearly says Jesus, so another WRONG to add to your very long list of errors. The Levites were never prophets, nor were they ever judges.
You obviously don't know what the "Order of Melchizedek" is...so try reading Hebrews 7 and pay attention to v3.

That you fail to see whenever the SON is mentioned in scripture, it is just that, God's ONLY begotten son. He is NOT singular in nature, as Heb 1:3 shows, but again you ignore scripture that shows you truth and stick only to the words that support your POV, instead of the truth that shows who our Triune God is. You are as inculcated as any cult member I have ever talked to, and obviously have NO personal relationship with the true Messiah or God.

You have no denom yet don't want me to use the word denom? You are quite confused and contradictory in your own mind.

I never said the Levites were prophets or judges...it just shows how you read...but you are telling me to pay attention...that is funny...
the Son is mentioned as the Son of God or the son of man...the Son of God is not singular???...that is a new one...did Mary have twins???
How would you know if one has a relationship with the messiah?? or God....?? you just go around labelling people now you are comparing me to cult members...
where did I ask you not to use the word denom...???? I am simply showing you God did not call us to any denom...

StanJ · Nov 19, 2015

newbirth said:
I never said the Levites were prophets or judges...it just shows how you read...but you are telling me to pay attention...that is funny...
the Son is mentioned as the Son of God or the son of man...the Son of God is not singular???...that is a new one...did Mary have twins???
How would you know if one has a relationship with the messiah?? or God....?? you just go around labelling people now you are comparing me to cult members...
where did I ask you not to use the word denom...???? I am simply showing you God did not call us to any denom...

and I didn't say you did, but again, you STRIVE about words instead of seeing the truth.

You must have some sort of dementia....you said; "denom ...others represent...I have none...God does not call us to "denoms" "

newbirth · Nov 19, 2015

StanJ said:
and I didn't say you did, but again, you STRIVE about words instead of seeing the truth.

You must have some sort of dementia....you said; "denom ...others represent...I have none...God does not call us to "denoms" "

all I see is that you have ignored the words pertaining to the scripture and doctrine to quibble over things that do no tmatter...

StanJ · Nov 19, 2015

newbirth said:
all I see is that you have ignored the words pertaining to the scripture and doctrine to quibble over things that do no tmatter...

That's because you're looking at yourself in the mirror. Try being a little more original than accusing others of what they accuse you of.

newbirth · Nov 20, 2015

StanJ said:
That's because you're looking at yourself in the mirror. Try being a little more original than accusing others of what they accuse you of.

OK lets try this...Did God call you to a denomination??? please show with scripture

StanJ · Nov 20, 2015

newbirth said:
OK lets try this...Did God call you to a denomination??? please show with scripture

More deflection newbirth. I won't go down these rabbit trails with you. The basic point is that you DON'T believe who the Bible says Jesus Christ is, so you CAN'T use ANY scripture to make your points. You are deceived.

Wormwood · Nov 23, 2015

newbirth said:
the bible says He ascended to His God...there is one God...

So you are just going to ignore the dozen passages I quoted that say Jesus is God? You see, that is why I am Trinitarian. I agree with you that there is one God. The Bible clearly teaches this and I do not deny it (as you should know..so why you keep saying it, I do not understand.), and yet it also refers to the one God as three persons with one essence. The Bible clearly says Jesus is God, it clearly says the Holy Spirit is God, and it clearly says the Father is God. Now, I believe all are true. I dont take some verses and ignore others. I accept all of revelation that there is "one God" and that Father, Son and Holy Spirit all belong to one "name" with one hupostasis yet remain distinct personas that love one another and exist in complete and total unity as one God. I'd rather take God at his Word than allow my feeble mind to cast out verses because they do not fit my expectations of how the identity of the Almighty God should be composed.

StanJ · Nov 23, 2015

Wormwood said:
So you are just going to ignore the dozen passages I quoted that say Jesus is God? You see, that is why I am Trinitarian. I agree with you that there is one God. The Bible clearly teaches this and I do not deny it (as you should know..so why you keep saying it, I do not understand.), and yet it also refers to the one God as three persons with one essence. The Bible clearly says Jesus is God, it clearly says the Holy Spirit is God, and it clearly says the Father is God. Now, I believe all are true. I dont take some verses and ignore others. I accept all of revelation that there is "one God" and that Father, Son and Holy Spirit all belong to one "name" with one hupostasis yet remain distinct personas that love one another and exist in complete and total unity as one God. I'd rather take God at his Word than allow my feeble mind to cast out verses because they do not fit my expectations of how the identity of the Almighty God should be composed.

Yes, because that is what inculcated people do. Remember you can only LEAD a horse to water......!

newbirth · Nov 25, 2015

StanJ said:
More deflection newbirth. I won't go down these rabbit trails with you. The basic point is that you DON'T believe who the Bible says Jesus Christ is, so you CAN'T use ANY scripture to make your points. You are deceived.

prove what you say with scripture...scripture says and I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God...prove otherwise...
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

newbirth · Nov 25, 2015

Wormwood said:
So you are just going to ignore the dozen passages I quoted that say Jesus is God? You see, that is why I am Trinitarian. I agree with you that there is one God. The Bible clearly teaches this and I do not deny it (as you should know..so why you keep saying it, I do not understand.), and yet it also refers to the one God as three persons with one essence. The Bible clearly says Jesus is God, it clearly says the Holy Spirit is God, and it clearly says the Father is God. Now, I believe all are true. I dont take some verses and ignore others. I accept all of revelation that there is "one God" and that Father, Son and Holy Spirit all belong to one "name" with one hupostasis yet remain distinct personas that love one another and exist in complete and total unity as one God. I'd rather take God at his Word than allow my feeble mind to cast out verses because they do not fit my expectations of how the identity of the Almighty God should be composed.

you are inferring ...nothing says..."Jesus is God" ....you deny there is one God the Father....where is the scripture that says..."Jesus is God"....as I showed you the scripture that says "Jesus is the Son of God.."
you take verses and say they teach or mean what they do not say....it is not my fault your mind is feeble

newbirth · Nov 25, 2015

StanJ said:
Yes, because that is what inculcated people do. Remember you can only LEAD a horse to water......!

drink this ...and tell me why it is written and what you must believe...then tell me why you believe contrary to this scripture???
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Wormwood · Nov 25, 2015

you are inferring ...nothing says..."Jesus is God" ....

Did you not read the texts?

Clearly you didnt. They very clearly say Jesus is God. I am not inferring anything. Let's just look at three of them so you dont get overwhelmed and decide not to read any of them.

“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20, ESV)

“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” (2 Peter 1:1, ESV)

“Thomas answered him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”” (John 20:28, ESV)

So, how is it that these texts are NOT saying Jesus is God? Was Thomas confused? If so, why didnt Jesus correct him? Thomas was speaking to Jesus and said to him, "My Lord and my God." There is nothing confusing here. It is very clear and straight forward statement. (not to mention that Thomas follows this statement up by worshiping Jesus!)

John also is referring to the "Son Jesus Christ" who he then describes as "the true God and eternal life." It very simply says, Jesus Christ, he is the true God and eternal life." You see, grammar has rules. When you are referencing someone and then you use a personal pronoun it generally refers back to the individual you just referenced. If I say, "I am with my true friend, with Bob. He is my buddy.." We, by the rules of grammar must assume that "he" is referring to "Bob" and not some other character. Thus, Bob is my buddy. Very simple. The pronoun refers to the most recently referenced person. So, are you suggesting we ignore the rules of grammar to appease your theology?

The same is true for the passage in 2 Peter. I if I say, "I was fired by my boss and CEO, George Barns" then the basic rules of grammar suggest that George Barnes is both your boss and CEO.

The reason you do not read them this way is not because of the verse and the clear sentence, but because your theology will not permit it. The basic rules of grammar very clearly declare Jesus to be God in very plain and straight-forward declarations. You would have no problem accepting these verses in their plain sense were it not for your theological views that will not permit it. So do not tell me my mind is feeble. My mind is simply accepting things as they are written. Your mind is creating loop holes because you have already determined what you believe about Jesus rather than allowing the plain wording of the Bible to speak for itself.

newbirth · Nov 25, 2015

Wormwood said:
Did you not read the texts?

Clearly you didnt. They very clearly say Jesus is God. I am not inferring anything. Let's just look at three of them so you dont get overwhelmed and decide not to read any of them.

“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20, ESV)

“Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:” (2 Peter 1:1, ESV)

“Thomas answered him [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”” (John 20:28, ESV)

So, how is it that these texts are NOT saying Jesus is God? Was Thomas confused? If so, why didnt Jesus correct him? Thomas was speaking to Jesus and said to him, "My Lord and my God." There is nothing confusing here. It is very clear and straight forward statement. (not to mention that Thomas follows this statement up by worshiping Jesus!)

John also is referring to the "Son Jesus Christ" who he then describes as "the true God and eternal life." It very simply says, Jesus Christ, he is the true God and eternal life." You see, grammar has rules. When you are referencing someone and then you use a personal pronoun it generally refers back to the individual you just referenced. If I say, "I am with my true friend, with Bob. He is my buddy.." We, by the rules of grammar must assume that "he" is referring to "Bob" and not some other character. Thus, Bob is my buddy. Very simple. The pronoun refers to the most recently referenced person. So, are you suggesting we ignore the rules of grammar to appease your theology?

The same is true for the passage in 2 Peter. I if I say, "I was fired by my boss and CEO, George Barns" then the basic rules of grammar suggest that George Barnes is both your boss and CEO.

The reason you do not read them this way is not because of the verse and the clear sentence, but because your theology will not permit it. The basic rules of grammar very clearly declare Jesus to be God in very plain and straight-forward declarations. You would have no problem accepting these verses in their plain sense were it not for your theological views that will not permit it. So do not tell me my mind is feeble. My mind is simply accepting things as they are written. Your mind is creating loop holes because you have already determined what you believe about Jesus rather than allowing the plain wording of the Bible to speak for itself.

every scripture here says God is the Father of Jesus....Jesus himself said He ascend to his God and his Father...making it abundantly there is one God the Father...and one Lord Jesus Christ his Son
So the error is in your understanding of the other scriptures...but you will reject the truth and believe a lie...

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 3:14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
2 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Wormwood · Nov 25, 2015

Yes, I can explain those, and I have (remember, Jesus is the incarnate God, born fully human...so he can be both God and the Son). However, you have yet to respond to my verses. I think the verses you posted are true AND the ones I posted are true (hence my belief in the Trinity). I do not deny Jesus is the Son of the Father. Yet you deny the verses that clearly teach Jesus is God. One of us isnt believing Scripture...and it isnt me.

newbirth · Nov 25, 2015

Wormwood said:
Yes, I can explain those, and I have (remember, Jesus is the incarnate God, born fully human...so he can be both God and the Son). However, you have yet to respond to my verses. I think the verses you posted are true AND the ones I posted are true (hence my belief in the Trinity). I do not deny Jesus is the Son of the Father. Yet you deny the verses that clearly teach Jesus is God. One of us isnt believing Scripture...and it isnt me.

you cannot start your explanation with something that is not in scripture...so don't tell me I have to remember..."Jesus is the incarnate God, born fully human...so he can be both God and the Son" that is not a part of scripture....your misunderstanding of the verses lead you to say Jesus is God...there is one God and Paul is saying that God is the God of Jesus...how do you explain
Jesus also being God in that scenario???
Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

StanJ · Nov 25, 2015

Wormwood said:
Yes, I can explain those, and I have (remember, Jesus is the incarnate God, born fully human...so he can be both God and the Son). However, you have yet to respond to my verses. I think the verses you posted are true AND the ones I posted are true (hence my belief in the Trinity). I do not deny Jesus is the Son of the Father. Yet you deny the verses that clearly teach Jesus is God. One of us isnt believing Scripture...and it isnt me.

I have to agree, that ducking scriptures by quoting other scriptures, does nothing to make a point, but only shows they are being used to try and deflect from the issue. This is always done by those who really don't understand the overarching theme of God's word that shows WHO He is. Either ALL God's word is true, or none of it is. We don't get to pick what is or isn't.

StanJ · Nov 25, 2015

newbirth said:
you cannot start your explanation with something that is not in scripture...so don't tell me I have to remember..."Jesus is the incarnate God, born fully human...so he can be both God and the Son" that is not a part of scripture....your misunderstanding of the verses lead you to say Jesus is God...there is one God and Paul is saying that God is the God of Jesus...how do you explain
Jesus also being God in that scenario???
Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

As you do so all the time, AND ignore scriptures that ARE given you, why should ANYONE listen to you?

newbirth · Nov 25, 2015

StanJ said:
As you do so all the time, AND ignore scriptures that ARE given you, why should ANYONE listen to you?

OK show me the scripture that says ..."Jesus is the incarnate God, born fully human...so he can be both God and the Son" and I amnot asking anyone to listen to me ...I am saying listen to the scripture...

newbirth · Nov 25, 2015

StanJ said:
I have to agree, that ducking scriptures by quoting other scriptures, does nothing to make a point, but only shows they are being used to try and deflect from the issue. This is always done by those who really don't understand the overarching theme of God's word that shows WHO He is. Either ALL God's word is true, or none of it is. We don't get to pick what is or isn't.

God word is true...the problem is relying on what is not God's word...so I do not accept things that are not in scripture simply because someone says scripture teaches it or scripture reveals it...

"Free" Will

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