LORD or Lord? KING or King?

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Retrobyter

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Shalom, everyone.

This is going to seem like a strange topic and possibly some will view it as "heretical," "blasphemous," "petty," or who-knows-what-else, but this topic is brought up with all seriousness and reverence.

We all should know that there is a difference between "Lord" and "LORD," especially in the Old Testament of the KJV. "Lord" is a translation of the Hebrew word "Adonai," while "LORD" is a "translation" of the Tetragrammaton - the Four Letters that make up the Name of God, commonly transliterated as "YHWH" or "YHVH." (Some pronounce this as "Jehovah," some as "Yahweh," some as the combination as "Yahovah," but I pronounce it as "Yahuwh," sounding like "Yahoo" to the Western ear. I use this pronunciation because of how His Name appears in other names; e.g., Matthew = Matittyahu, Elijah = Eliyahu, and Jeremiah = Yirmeyahu, in Hebrew.) Not all English versions, however, make this distinction.

So, the Creator God, whom Yeshua` (Jesus) called "my Father," has the Name "YHWH" and is "translated" as "the LORD." Yeshua` the Messiah (and others) were given the title of respect, "Adonai," translated as the "Lord." This is a superlative version of the Hebrew word "Adoniy," which means "my Lord," or "my Sir," or just simply "Sir."

So, when David said, ...

Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
KJV


... he was using both words, "YHWH" and "Adoniy." (If your English version doesn't make a distinction between these two words in translation, you've lost valuable and pertinent information in the translation.)

UNFORTUNATELY, the Greek translation of these words DO NOT make this distinction! This can be VERY disconcerting if one doesn't know the verse being quoted or being referenced. Consequently, neither does the New Testament, even of the KJV! One absolutely MUST see what someone was quoting to know whether the "Lord" should be "LORD" or remain "Lord," whether it is a translation of the Hebrew "YHWH" or "Adonai," respectively.

This results in not knowing whether the "Lord" of the New Testament is referring to God the Father or to the Son of God, Yeshua` (Jesus)!

A case in point is the following dialogue:

Matthew 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
KJV


If one didn't know that this verse quoted in verse 44 is from the above verse in the Old Testament, one might be confused by the way that the Greek uses the same word ("kurios") for BOTH instances of "Lord" in verse 44! And, this is just one of MANY such quotations that use one or the other from the Old Testament.

Many do not make the NECESSARY distinction between Yeshua` and God the Father that the Scriptures constantly emphasize. Trinitarian belief has degenerated to a common belief today that Yeshua` IS God (although He made no such claim for Himself). At best, Yeshua` acknowledged that He was "the Son of God." Most often, He called Himself "the Son of man," tantamount to saying a "true Human Being." He was constantly praying to His Father, and His will was not always in sync with His Father's will (although He bowed to His Father's will).

Now, let's add a little more "confusion" to the mix: Our understanding of the word "worship" is ...
'the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity." (a dictionary entry)

However, the Greek word TRANSLATED as "worship" is ...

NT:4352 proskuneoo (pros-koo-neh'-o); from NT:4314 and a probable derivative of NT:2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):
KJV - worship.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, putting all this together, sometimes the Scriptures may be talking about God the Father accepting worship when using the words "Lord" and "worship" together, but it might also be talking about the Son of God, the Messiah Yeshua`, receiving obeisance as the literal, physical King He most certainly will be someday soon as He begins the first 1000 years of His reign!

God the Father is the TRUE King of the Kingdom of Isra'el He created by taking the captives captive in the wilderness of Sinai. While the children of Isra'el demanded of Sh'mu'el (Samuel) a king like all the other nations had, God told Sh'mu'el that they had not rejected him (Sh'mu'el) but GOD HIMSELF from being their King! They were also told in no uncertain terms that such a king was going to be demanding and naturally excessive:

1 Samuel 8:1-22
1 And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.
2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beer-sheba.
3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.
KJV


The first short-lived dynasty of Sha'uwl (Saul) was a DISASTER! He was, after all, just a human being!

The second dynasty of David was much better, but Shlomoh (Solomon), David's son, was indeed excessive in many ways! David's grandson, following the advice of the younger advisors and wanting to follow in his father's footsteps, caused the split of the Kingdom into two as the northern tribes of Isra'el had had enough.

However, the reason why David's dynasty was better was to be found in David's attitude:

2 Samuel 7:1-29
1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;
2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.
3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.
4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who am I, O LORD God? and what is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
19 And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O LORD God; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O LORD God?
20 And what can David say more unto thee? for thou, LORD God, knowest thy servant.
21 For thy word's sake, and according to thine own heart, hast thou done all these great things, to make thy servant know them.
22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.
25 And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it for ever, and do as thou hast said.
26 And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.
27 For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
28 And now, O LORD God, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:
29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O LORD God, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever.

KJV


1 Chronicles 28:1-29:25
28:1 And David assembled all the princes of Israel, the princes of the tribes, and the captains of the companies that ministered to the king by course, and the captains over the thousands, and captains over the hundreds, and the stewards over all the substance and possession of the king, and of his sons, with the officers, and with the mighty men, and with all the valiant men, unto Jerusalem.
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
10 Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.

11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
13 Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD.
14 He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service:
15 Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick.
16 And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver:
17 Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver:
18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
19 All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.
20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
21 And, behold, the courses of the priests and the Levites, even they shall be with thee for all the service of the house of God: and there shall be with thee for all manner of workmanship every willing skilful man, for any manner of service: also the princes and all the people will be wholly at thy commandment.
29:1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.
2 Now I have prepared with all my might for the house of my God the gold for things to be made of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and the brass for things of brass, the iron for things of iron, and wood for things of wood; onyx stones, and stones to be set, glistering stones, and of divers colours, and all manner of precious stones, and marble stones in abundance.
3 Moreover, because I have set my affection to the house of my God, I have of mine own proper good, of gold and silver, which I have given to the house of my God, over and above all that I have prepared for the holy house,
4 Even three thousand talents of gold, of the gold of Ophir, and seven thousand talents of refined silver, to overlay the walls of the houses withal:
5 The gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for all manner of work to be made by the hands of artificers. And who then is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?
6 Then the chief of the fathers and princes of the tribes of Israel, and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, with the rulers of the king's work, offered willingly,
7 And gave for the service of the house of God of gold five thousand talents and ten thousand drams, and of silver ten thousand talents, and of brass eighteen thousand talents, and one hundred thousand talents of iron.
8 And they with whom precious stones were found gave them to the treasure of the house of the LORD, by the hand of Jehiel the Gershonite.
9 Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.
10 Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.
11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
13 Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.
14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.
15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.
16 O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own.
17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.
18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:
19 And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.
20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.
21 And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings unto the LORD, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel:
22 And did eat and drink before the LORD on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest.
23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
24 And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king.
25 And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel.
KJV


This was only the BEGINNING! David recognized who the REAL King was/is!

THIS is the significance of what was said at Yeshua`s baptism/mikvah and later on the Mount of Transfiguration!

Matthew 3:13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Mark 1:9-11
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Luke 3:21-22
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
KJV

Matthew 16:28-17:13
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,
This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,
Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,
Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
KJV


Mark 9:1-13
9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,
This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
12 And he answered and told them,
Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

KJV

Luke 9:27-36
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying,
This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
KJV


2 Peter 1:15-18
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
KJV


Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, the Son of David, was/is the Son of God in the SAME WAY as Shlomoh (Solomon) was!
 

Pelaides

New Member
Jul 30, 2012
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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, everyone.

This is going to seem like a strange topic and possibly some will view it as "heretical," "blasphemous," "petty," or who-knows-what-else, but this topic is brought up with all seriousness and reverence.

We all should know that there is a difference between "Lord" and "LORD," especially in the Old Testament of the KJV. "Lord" is a translation of the Hebrew word "Adonai," while "LORD" is a "translation" of the Tetragrammaton - the Four Letters that make up the Name of God, commonly transliterated as "YHWH" or "YHVH." (Some pronounce this as "Jehovah," some as "Yahweh," some as the combination as "Yahovah," but I pronounce it as "Yahuwh," sounding like "Yahoo" to the Western ear. I use this pronunciation because of how His Name appears in other names; e.g., Matthew = Matittyahu, Elijah = Eliyahu, and Jeremiah = Yirmeyahu, in Hebrew.) Not all English versions, however, make this distinction.

So, the Creator God, whom Yeshua` (Jesus) called "my Father," has the Name "YHWH" and is "translated" as "the LORD." Yeshua` the Messiah (and others) were given the title of respect, "Adonai," translated as the "Lord." This is a superlative version of the Hebrew word "Adoniy," which means "my Lord," or "my Sir," or just simply "Sir."

So, when David said, ...

Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
KJV


... he was using both words, "YHWH" and "Adoniy." (If your English version doesn't make a distinction between these two words in translation, you've lost valuable and pertinent information in the translation.)

UNFORTUNATELY, the Greek translation of these words DO NOT make this distinction! This can be VERY disconcerting if one doesn't know the verse being quoted or being referenced. Consequently, neither does the New Testament, even of the KJV! One absolutely MUST see what someone was quoting to know whether the "Lord" should be "LORD" or remain "Lord," whether it is a translation of the Hebrew "YHWH" or "Adonai," respectively.

This results in not knowing whether the "Lord" of the New Testament is referring to God the Father or to the Son of God, Yeshua` (Jesus)!

A case in point is the following dialogue:

Matthew 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
KJV


If one didn't know that this verse quoted in verse 44 is from the above verse in the Old Testament, one might be confused by the way that the Greek uses the same word ("kurios") for BOTH instances of "Lord" in verse 44! And, this is just one of MANY such quotations that use one or the other from the Old Testament.

Many do not make the NECESSARY distinction between Yeshua` and God the Father that the Scriptures constantly emphasize. Trinitarian belief has degenerated to a common belief today that Yeshua` IS God (although He made no such claim for Himself). At best, Yeshua` acknowledged that He was "the Son of God." Most often, He called Himself "the Son of man," tantamount to saying a "true Human Being." He was constantly praying to His Father, and His will was not always in sync with His Father's will (although He bowed to His Father's will).

Now, let's add a little more "confusion" to the mix: Our understanding of the word "worship" is ...
'the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity." (a dictionary entry)

However, the Greek word TRANSLATED as "worship" is ...

NT:4352 proskuneoo (pros-koo-neh'-o); from NT:4314 and a probable derivative of NT:2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):
KJV - worship.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, putting all this together, sometimes the Scriptures may be talking about God the Father accepting worship when using the words "Lord" and "worship" together, but it might also be talking about the Son of God, the Messiah Yeshua`, receiving obeisance as the literal, physical King He most certainly will be someday soon as He begins the first 1000 years of His reign!

God the Father is the TRUE King of the Kingdom of Isra'el He created by taking the captives captive in the wilderness of Sinai. While the children of Isra'el demanded of Sh'mu'el (Samuel) a king like all the other nations had, God told Sh'mu'el that they had not rejected him (Sh'mu'el) but GOD HIMSELF from being their King! They were also told in no uncertain terms that such a king was going to be demanding and naturally excessive:

1 Samuel 8:1-22
1 And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.
2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beer-sheba.
3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.
KJV


The first short-lived dynasty of Sha'uwl (Saul) was a DISASTER! He was, after all, just a human being!

The second dynasty of David was much better, but Shlomoh (Solomon), David's son, was indeed excessive in many ways! David's grandson, following the advice of the younger advisors and wanting to follow in his father's footsteps, caused the split of the Kingdom into two as the northern tribes of Isra'el had had enough.

However, the reason why David's dynasty was better was to be found in David's attitude:

2 Samuel 7:1-29
1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;
2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.
3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.
4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,
5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.
7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who am I, O LORD God? and what is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
19 And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O LORD God; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O LORD God?
20 And what can David say more unto thee? for thou, LORD God, knowest thy servant.
21 For thy word's sake, and according to thine own heart, hast thou done all these great things, to make thy servant know them.
22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.
25 And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it for ever, and do as thou hast said.
26 And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.
27 For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
28 And now, O LORD God, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant:
29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O LORD God, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever.

KJV


1 Chronicles 28:1-29:25
28:1 And David assembled all the princes of Israel, the princes of the tribes, and the captains of the companies that ministered to the king by course, and the captains over the thousands, and captains over the hundreds, and the stewards over all the substance and possession of the king, and of his sons, with the officers, and with the mighty men, and with all the valiant men, unto Jerusalem.
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
10 Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.

11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
13 Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD.
14 He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service:
15 Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick.
16 And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver:
17 Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver:
18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
19 All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.
20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
21 And, behold, the courses of the priests and the Levites, even they shall be with thee for all the service of the house of God: and there shall be with thee for all manner of workmanship every willing skilful man, for any manner of service: also the princes and all the people will be wholly at thy commandment.
29:1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.
2 Now I have prepared with all my might for the house of my God the gold for things to be made of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and the brass for things of brass, the iron for things of iron, and wood for things of wood; onyx stones, and stones to be set, glistering stones, and of divers colours, and all manner of precious stones, and marble stones in abundance.
3 Moreover, because I have set my affection to the house of my God, I have of mine own proper good, of gold and silver, which I have given to the house of my God, over and above all that I have prepared for the holy house,
4 Even three thousand talents of gold, of the gold of Ophir, and seven thousand talents of refined silver, to overlay the walls of the houses withal:
5 The gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for all manner of work to be made by the hands of artificers. And who then is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?
6 Then the chief of the fathers and princes of the tribes of Israel, and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, with the rulers of the king's work, offered willingly,
7 And gave for the service of the house of God of gold five thousand talents and ten thousand drams, and of silver ten thousand talents, and of brass eighteen thousand talents, and one hundred thousand talents of iron.
8 And they with whom precious stones were found gave them to the treasure of the house of the LORD, by the hand of Jehiel the Gershonite.
9 Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.
10 Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.
11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
13 Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.
14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.
15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.
16 O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own.
17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.
18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:
19 And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.
20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.
21 And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings unto the LORD, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel:
22 And did eat and drink before the LORD on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest.
23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
24 And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king.
25 And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel.
KJV


This was only the BEGINNING! David recognized who the REAL King was/is!

THIS is the significance of what was said at Yeshua`s baptism/mikvah and later on the Mount of Transfiguration!

Matthew 3:13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Mark 1:9-11
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
KJV

Luke 3:21-22
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
KJV

Matthew 16:28-17:13
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,
This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,
Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,
Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
KJV


Mark 9:1-13
9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,
This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
12 And he answered and told them,
Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

KJV

Luke 9:27-36
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying,
This is my beloved Son: hear him.
36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
KJV


2 Peter 1:15-18
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
KJV


Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, the Son of David, was/is the Son of God in the SAME WAY as Shlomoh (Solomon) was!
There is already a debate going on about this on the debate forum.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Pelaides.

Pelaides said:
There is already a debate going on about this on the debate forum.
No, this is not the same subject at all. First of all, I'm not a JW. What I am talking about is that Yeshua` is prophesied to fulfill the passages about the Kingly Messiah, and that is NOT the same as God's role of being Isra'el's King.

What I'm trying to say is that we need to be EXTRA careful when it comes to WHOM is being addressed when reading the prophecies. Sometimes, they are about the Messiah Yeshua` but SOMETIMES they are addressing the King, YHWH, the God whom Yeshua` called His Father.

Trinitarians have the upper hand these days, but the truth is that there is NO SUCH THING in the Scriptures as "God the Son." He is the "SON of God"; NEVER the reverse! On the other hand, being the One who represents God to the earth and who will not only grow His Kingdom into a World Empire before handing it over to His Father, He is the EPITOME of God's ways! He is the One to whom God has committed all judgment and authority, and HE is the One who will have every enemy put under His feet, ending with Death itself. THEN, He will turn over the World Empire to His Father that God may be all in all! (1 Corinthians 15:20-28.) (All this has not happened, yet!)

I personally do not see a difference between God the Father and the Holy Spirit of God. Consider the following Scripture passages:

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


Leviticus 11:43-45
43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
KJV


Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
KJV


Psalm 51:1-12
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
KJV


Isaiah 63:7-16
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
KJV


So, God, the Father (of all Isra'el, not just of Yeshua`), was/is both "holy" and a "Spirit," and He GIVES others His Holy Spirit (Hebrew: Ruach haQodesh) as needed. So, what's the difference?! God the Father IS the Holy Spirit! (The "lovingkindness," by the way, translated from the Hebrew word "checed," means His COVENANT-KEEPING faithfulness.)

My Rabbi just pointed out something rather interesting: All of the gates to the New Jerusalem are given the names of the twelve tribes of Isra'el. There's not a gate that is labeled, "For the Gentiles."
 

Pelaides

New Member
Jul 30, 2012
529
19
0
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Pelaides.


No, this is not the same subject at all. First of all, I'm not a JW. What I am talking about is that Yeshua` is prophesied to fulfill the passages about the Kingly Messiah, and that is NOT the same as God's role of being Isra'el's King.

What I'm trying to say is that we need to be EXTRA careful when it comes to WHOM is being addressed when reading the prophecies. Sometimes, they are about the Messiah Yeshua` but SOMETIMES they are addressing the King, YHWH, the God whom Yeshua` called His Father.

Trinitarians have the upper hand these days, but the truth is that there is NO SUCH THING in the Scriptures as "God the Son." He is the "SON of God"; NEVER the reverse! On the other hand, being the One who represents God to the earth and who will not only grow His Kingdom into a World Empire before handing it over to His Father, He is the EPITOME of God's ways! He is the One to whom God has committed all judgment and authority, and HE is the One who will have every enemy put under His feet, ending with Death itself. THEN, He will turn over the World Empire to His Father that God may be all in all! (1 Corinthians 15:20-28.) (All this has not happened, yet!)

I personally do not see a difference between God the Father and the Holy Spirit of God. Consider the following Scripture passages:

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


Leviticus 11:43-45
43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
KJV


Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
KJV


Psalm 51:1-12
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
KJV


Isaiah 63:7-16
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
KJV


So, God, the Father (of all Isra'el, not just of Yeshua`), was/is both "holy" and a "Spirit," and He GIVES others His Holy Spirit (Hebrew: Ruach haQodesh) as needed. So, what's the difference?! God the Father IS the Holy Spirit! (The "lovingkindness," by the way, translated from the Hebrew th his name on them?word "checed," means His COVENANT-KEEPING faithfulness.)

My Rabbi just pointed out something rather interesting: All of the gates to the New Jerusalem are given the names of the twelve tribes of Isra'el. There's not a gate that is labeled, "For the Gentiles."
this has nothing to do with the jehova witnesses,it has to do with alot of people walking in darkness who need enlighting.What are you anyway,a coward whos scared to debate,or an egotist who wants topics with his name on them?shalom.
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
970
23
0
82
South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Pelaides.


No, this is not the same subject at all. First of all, I'm not a JW. What I am talking about is that Yeshua` is prophesied to fulfill the passages about the Kingly Messiah, and that is NOT the same as God's role of being Isra'el's King.

What I'm trying to say is that we need to be EXTRA careful when it comes to WHOM is being addressed when reading the prophecies. Sometimes, they are about the Messiah Yeshua` but SOMETIMES they are addressing the King, YHWH, the God whom Yeshua` called His Father.

Trinitarians have the upper hand these days, but the truth is that there is NO SUCH THING in the Scriptures as "God the Son." He is the "SON of God"; NEVER the reverse! On the other hand, being the One who represents God to the earth and who will not only grow His Kingdom into a World Empire before handing it over to His Father, He is the EPITOME of God's ways! He is the One to whom God has committed all judgment and authority, and HE is the One who will have every enemy put under His feet, ending with Death itself. THEN, He will turn over the World Empire to His Father that God may be all in all! (1 Corinthians 15:20-28.) (All this has not happened, yet!)

I personally do not see a difference between God the Father and the Holy Spirit of God. Consider the following Scripture passages:

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


Leviticus 11:43-45
43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
KJV


Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
KJV


Psalm 51:1-12
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
KJV


Isaiah 63:7-16
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
KJV


So, God, the Father (of all Isra'el, not just of Yeshua`), was/is both "holy" and a "Spirit," and He GIVES others His Holy Spirit (Hebrew: Ruach haQodesh) as needed. So, what's the difference?! God the Father IS the Holy Spirit! (The "lovingkindness," by the way, translated from the Hebrew word "checed," means His COVENANT-KEEPING faithfulness.)

My Rabbi just pointed out something rather interesting: All of the gates to the New Jerusalem are given the names of the twelve tribes of Isra'el. There's not a gate that is labeled, "For the Gentiles."
Thank you for caring!

Only a head's up. God's Son is not identical wtih the title "Messiah" which I think you're already aware of?

He was God's Son long before He was the Messiah.

The Son of God - God the Son - means the eternal, co-equal, essential Son, the 2nd Person of the Godhead.

Old Jack
 

Retrobyter

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Oct 29, 2011
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Shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:
Thank you for caring!

Only a head's up. God's Son is not identical wtih the title "Messiah" which I think you're already aware of?

He was God's Son long before He was the Messiah.

The Son of God - God the Son - means the eternal, co-equal, essential Son, the 2nd Person of the Godhead.

Old Jack
Or, so goes the rhetoric of the doctrine of the Trinity! That's not biblical; that's theological rhetoric! Was He? PROVE IT BY THE SCRIPTURES! I'm saying that Yeshua` was God's Son in much the same sense as Shlomoh (Solomon) was God's son! It was an identification that God made with the heir to be Isra'el's King!

1 Chronicles 28:6-8
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
KJV

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (Hebrew: mashiach = Messiah), saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV

This is a Messianic psalm and a Messianic prophecy! And, just to be clear, "Christ" = "Messiah." When did this occur?

Acts 13:26-41
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. (Psalm 2:7)
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. (Isaiah 55:3)
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. (Habakkuk 1:5)
KJV
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
970
23
0
82
South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.


Or, so goes the rhetoric of the doctrine of the Trinity! That's not biblical; that's theological rhetoric! Was He? PROVE IT BY THE SCRIPTURES! I'm saying that Yeshua` was God's Son in much the same sense as Shlomoh (Solomon) was God's son! It was an identification that God made with the heir to be Isra'el's King![/QUOTE

1 Chronicles 28:6-8
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
KJV

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (Hebrew: mashiach = Messiah), saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV

This is a Messianic psalm and a Messianic prophecy! And, just to be clear, "Christ" = "Messiah." When did this occur?

Acts 13:26-41
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. (Psalm 2:7)
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. (Isaiah 55:3)
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. (Habakkuk 1:5)
KJV
shturt678 said:
Shalom, Jack.


Or, so goes the rhetoric of the doctrine of the Trinity! That's not biblical; that's theological rhetoric! Was He? PROVE IT BY THE SCRIPTURES! I'm saying that Yeshua` was God's Son in much the same sense as Shlomoh (Solomon) was God's son! It was an identification that God made with the heir to be Isra'el's King!
[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Thank you again for your caring and response![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Let's back peddle waaay back to Exod.3:2, etc. in the flame, the Angel of the Lord manifested Himself as the "jealous GOD." You already are aware that at Exod.3:2, the Angel of the Lord = GOD thus the only question is in IChron.28:6-8, is this the same "Angel of the Lord" = GOD??? I strongly feel it's the same pre-incarnate Godman Jesus Christ loosely speaking of course thus = GOD.[/SIZE]


1 Chronicles 28:6-8
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
KJV

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (Hebrew: mashiach = Messiah), saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV

This is a Messianic psalm and a Messianic prophecy! And, just to be clear, "Christ" = "Messiah." When did this occur?

Acts 13:26-41
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. (Psalm 2:7)
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. (Isaiah 55:3)
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. (Habakkuk 1:5)
KJV


Old Jack
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
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Tampa Bay, Florida
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Shalom, Jack.


shturt678 said:
Thank you again for your caring and response!
Let's back peddle waaay back to Exod.3:2, etc. in the flame, the Angel of the Lord manifested Himself as the "jealous GOD." You already are aware that at Exod.3:2, the Angel of the Lord = GOD thus the only question is in IChron.28:6-8, is this the same "Angel of the Lord" = GOD??? I strongly feel it's the same pre-incarnate Godman Jesus Christ loosely speaking of course thus = GOD.
...
Old Jack
That's a THEORY, but it has no biblical backing! NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that these appearances of an "angel of the LORD" are a "pre-incarnate appearance of Christ" nor does the text suggest it, let alone demand it! I've done the research, and here are my findings. These are ALL the places in Scripture that use the phrase "the angel of the LORD" or "the angel of the Lord":

Genesis 16:7
7 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
KJV
Genesis 16:9
9 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
KJV
Genesis 16:10
10 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
KJV
Genesis 16:11
11 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
KJV
Genesis 22:11
11 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
KJV
Genesis 22:15
15 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
KJV
Exodus 3:2
2 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
KJV
Numbers 22:22
22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
KJV
Numbers 22:23
23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
KJV
Numbers 22:24
24 But the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
KJV
Numbers 22:25
25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
KJV
Numbers 22:26
26 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
KJV
Numbers 22:27
27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
KJV
Numbers 22:31
31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
KJV
Numbers 22:32
32 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
KJV
Numbers 22:34
34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.
KJV
Numbers 22:35
35 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
KJV
Judges 2:1
2 And an angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
KJV
Judges 2:4
4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.
KJV
Judges 5:23
23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty.
KJV
Judges 6:11
11 And there came an angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abi-ezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
KJV
Judges 6:12
12 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
KJV
Judges 6:21
21 Then the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) departed out of his sight.
KJV
Judges 6:22
22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), Gideon said, Alas, O LORD God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) face to face.
KJV
Judges 13:3
3 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
KJV
Judges 13:13
13 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.
KJV
Judges 13:15
15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
KJV
Judges 13:16
16 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH).
KJV
Judges 13:17
17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
KJV
Judges 13:18
18 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
KJV
Judges 13:20
20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
KJV
Judges 13:21
21 But the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH).
KJV
2 Samuel 24:16
16 And when the angel (hamal’aakh) stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people,
It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
KJV
1 Kings 19:7
7 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) came again the second time, and touched him, and said, Arise and eat; because the journey is too great for thee.
KJV
2 Kings 1:3
3 But the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron?
KJV
2 Kings 1:15
15 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) said unto Elijah, Go down with him: be not afraid of him. And he arose, and went down with him unto the king.
KJV
2 Kings 19:35
35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
KJV
1 Chronicles 21:12
12 Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the Lord, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.
KJV
1 Chronicles 21:15
15 And God sent an angel (mal’aakh) unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel (lamal’aakh) that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
KJV
1 Chronicles 21:16
16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
KJV
1 Chronicles 21:18
18 Then the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up, and set up an altar unto the LORD in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
KJV
1 Chronicles 21:30
30 But David could not go before it to inquire of God: for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the LORD (chereV mal’akh YHWH).
KJV
Psalms 34:7
7 The angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
KJV
Psalms 35:5
5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) chase them.
KJV
Psalms 35:6
6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) persecute them.
KJV
Isaiah 37:36
36 Then the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
KJV
Zechariah 1:11
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
KJV
Zechariah 1:12
12 Then the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?
KJV
Zechariah 3:1
3 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH), and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
KJV
Zechariah 3:5
5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD (uwmal’akh YHWH) stood by.
KJV
Zechariah 3:6
6 And the angel of the LORD (mal’akh YHWH) protested unto Joshua, saying,
KJV
Zechariah 12:8
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD (kmal’akh YHWH) before them.
KJV
Matthew 1:20
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord (aggelos Kuriou) appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
KJV
Matthew 1:24
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord (ho aggelos Kuriou) had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
KJV
Matthew 2:13
13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord (aggelos Kuriou) appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
KJV
Matthew 2:19
19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord (aggelos Kuriou) appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
KJV
Matthew 28:2
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord (aggelos [gar] Kuriou) descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
KJV
Luke 1:11
11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord (aggelos Kuriou) standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
KJV
Luke 2:9
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord (aggelos Kuriou) came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
KJV
Acts 5:19
19 But the angel of the Lord (Aggelos [de] Kuriou) by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
KJV
Acts 7:30
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord (aggelos) in a flame of fire in a bush.
KJV
Acts 8:26
26 And the angel of the Lord (Aggelos [de] Kuriou) spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
KJV
Acts 12:7
7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord (aggelos Kuriou) came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
KJV
Acts 12:23
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord (aggelos Kuriou) smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
KJV


It is ALWAYS a two-word phrase and NEVER has a definite article attached! Literally, the Hebrew phrase (mal'akh YHWH) translates to "a-messenger of-YHWH." ("YHWH," of course, is the NAME of God.) As far as the Greek NT goes, how is it possible that this phrase, "aggelos Kuriou," could be a "pre-incarnate appearance of Christ" AFTER the incarnation?!

Don't get so bogged down in theory and rhetoric that you forget how to THINK.
 

shturt678

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To Retrobyter

You missed one, ie, ICor.10:4, "rock was Christ." Christ was the spiritual rock that never allowed Israel to perish (1st water miracle, Exod.17:1-7 - check out Num.20:2-13 also). Christ gave them manna and water daily. Christ provided actual food and drink before His Incarnation.

I'll omit for now the other 40 or so O.T. passages that view the "Angel of the Lord" a kind of pre-incarnation of the Messiah = God.

Old Jack

One cannot help but agape that supernatural 'rock' = "Son of God."
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:
To Retrobyter

You missed one, ie, ICor.10:4, "rock was Christ." Christ was the spiritual rock that never allowed Israel to perish (1st water miracle, Exod.17:1-7 - check out Num.20:2-13 also). Christ gave them manna and water daily. Christ provided actual food and drink before His Incarnation.

I'll omit for now the other 40 or so O.T. passages that view the "Angel of the Lord" a kind of pre-incarnation of the Messiah = God.

Old Jack

One cannot help but agape that supernatural 'rock' = "Son of God."
First of all, I wasn't searching for "Rock" and "Messiah" together. Secondly, you'll HAVE to omit "the other 40 or so" because THEY DON'T EXIST!!! Sorry, but it's not "the O.T. passages that view the 'Angel of the LORD' a kind of pre-incarnation of the Messiah (= God)." It's PEOPLE who view the O.T. passages as passages that equate the 'Angel of the LORD' with a pre-incarnation of the Messiah! And, as I've already shown above, there is NO usage of the definite article, and they are ALL two-word phrases in the Hebrew! IF there are instances that are NOT "a pre-incarnation of the Messiah," then WHO DETERMINES which are and which are not?!
 

Floyd

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Feb 28, 2014
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Hello Retrobyter:

In your above; you have defined the wrong translation of Lord and LORD. For someone of your learning and knowledge that's easy to see. For the average "Joe", does that matter when finding Salvation in Christ?

You lucid interpretation of "God the Son" as opposed to the "Son of God"; is clearly very controversial relative to Trinitarian teaching. The many verses quoted, most Bible loving people have noticed in the years they have read scripture; and put the inevitable thoughts to one side, for many reasons. This point, I think does not affect the individuals salvation in Christ; but, to deny Christ Jesus' Deity surely does?

As you may have noticed, there has been for some time a hot debate between "Purity" and others re. the effect of denial of Christ's Deity. I have put to him a summation of his teaching with hypothetical result; viz:


Purity, on 24 May 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:
Purity said:
If only you had 39 books to support your notions but you haven't one.
I only need one; The Bible!

It states clearly that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; which is where your apostasy is!
Watching your weasel words is like reading Gen..and Satan's words to Eve; "surely thou shalt not die"!
Ahh. but of course; you don't believe in Satan do you?
That means he never tempted Eve!
That means in your "theology" God introduced temptation and evil!???
That of course would not hold water! So where now your theology?

You say you "praise God regularly"; that means (if you tell the truth), that you "worship in spirit and in truth ( Jhn.4:23-24), unless the "one" you worship, is one of those that Jesus warned would be evident (false Christ's).
You said in an earlier post that you treat the Holy Spirit in the same way as Christ Jesus; ie deny their Deity!
In that case; you cannot "worship in spirit and in truth"; as "God is Spirit"!???
Floyd.

May I as you what your stance is re. this battle between us?

Regarding your above comment on the 12 Gates of the "new Jerusalem"; some of my tentative thinking below.

[SIZE=14pt]V.12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a) Having a wall great and high and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] twelve gates,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and at the gates[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]twelve angels,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and names written on them, which are the names of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]twelve tribes[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] of the children of Isreal[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Ezk. 48:31-35, (see Jehovah Shammah, = "Jehovah is there," Ezk.48:35.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]On the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]east three gates[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; on the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]north three gates;[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] on the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]south three gates;[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and on the west three gates.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And the wall of the city had[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]twelve foundations[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and in them the names of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]twelve apostles of the Lamb.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]In the O.T. God attempted to obtain in his [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]chosen people Israel, faithfulness, fidelity and love and service.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Faithfulness[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] to Him Jehovah, as their “one true God.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Fidelity[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in their dealings and actions with each other, and with Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Love[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] from them to Him for His care and protection of them, and service in witness![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]It failed. Israel was unfaithful with the gods of the local neighbours, they did not honour Jehovah’s name among themselves or the nations around them. For their sin, after they warred and split when Solomon died, the presence (Glory) of Jehovah departed from them, and they were exiled to Babylon, and Syria. Even at this low ebb, God promised not to abandon them, so as to keep His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]that they would never cease to be a people on earth[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]He promised they would be revived, and eventually they as [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“the unfaithful wife,”[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](see Joel and elsewhere,) would become “the Bride,” (Isa. 49:18, 61:10, 62:5, John 3:29.) This promise entailed the fulfilling of the prophecy in Jer. 31:34,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and which CHRIST as JESUS achieved at His death on the cross outside the walls of Jerusalem.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]He witnessed to that fact at His last meal with the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]apostles, who are mentioned in V.14 above, (see Matt. 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] They were sent to Israel only, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]to witness that fact. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Of those[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]who are the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Overcomers [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]of earlier chapters and descriptions, some are part of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“remnant,”[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]saved by Christ, whilst still in their flesh, so as to[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]fulfil God’s early promises, re the survival of Israel, and so that Satan could not obtain victory on earth by defeating a promise of God.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] The twelve apostles are therefore the above mentioned foundations, underpinning the Twelve Tribes (gates,) of whom are made up of all the people of Israel and proselytes that form the Bride, after the resurrection of O.T. Israel, as mentioned in Ezekiel, and Daniel 12.[/SIZE]

Floyd.
 

shturt678

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Feb 9, 2013
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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.


First of all, I wasn't searching for "Rock" and "Messiah" together. Secondly, you'll HAVE to omit "the other 40 or so" because THEY DON'T EXIST!!! Sorry, but it's not "the O.T. passages that view the 'Angel of the LORD' a kind of pre-incarnation of the Messiah (= God)." It's PEOPLE who view the O.T. passages as passages that equate the 'Angel of the LORD' with a pre-incarnation of the Messiah! And, as I've already shown above, there is NO usage of the definite article, and they are ALL two-word phrases in the Hebrew! IF there are instances that are NOT "a pre-incarnation of the Messiah," then WHO DETERMINES which are and which are not?!
Thank you again for your response!

Does ICor.10:4 carry any weight, eg, articulated "E Petra.....O Xristos" "the rock was Christ," the Godman Lord or LORD Jesus Christ. This was the Rock Godman Christ that never allowed Israel to perish.

btw going easy on you as there is much more you missed contextually.

Old Jack
 

Floyd

Active Member
Feb 28, 2014
937
30
28
Floyd said:
Hello Retrobyter:

In your above; you have defined the wrong translation of Lord and LORD. For someone of your learning and knowledge that's easy to see. For the average "Joe", does that matter when finding Salvation in Christ?

You lucid interpretation of "God the Son" as opposed to the "Son of God"; is clearly very controversial relative to Trinitarian teaching. The many verses quoted, most Bible loving people have noticed in the years they have read scripture; and put the inevitable thoughts to one side, for many reasons. This point, I think does not affect the individuals salvation in Christ; but, to deny Christ Jesus' Deity surely does?

As you may have noticed, there has been for some time a hot debate between "Purity" and others re. the effect of denial of Christ's Deity. I have put to him a summation of his teaching with hypothetical result; viz:


Purity, on 24 May 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

I only need one; The Bible!

It states clearly that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; which is where your apostasy is!
Watching your weasel words is like reading Gen..and Satan's words to Eve; "surely thou shalt not die"!
Ahh. but of course; you don't believe in Satan do you?
That means he never tempted Eve!
That means in your "theology" God introduced temptation and evil!???
That of course would not hold water! So where now your theology?

You say you "praise God regularly"; that means (if you tell the truth), that you "worship in spirit and in truth ( Jhn.4:23-24), unless the "one" you worship, is one of those that Jesus warned would be evident (false Christ's).
You said in an earlier post that you treat the Holy Spirit in the same way as Christ Jesus; ie deny their Deity!
In that case; you cannot "worship in spirit and in truth"; as "God is Spirit"!???
Floyd.

May I as you what your stance is re. this battle between us?

Regarding your above comment on the 12 Gates of the "new Jerusalem"; some of my tentative thinking below.

[SIZE=14pt]V.12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a) Having a wall great and high and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] twelve gates,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and at the gates[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]twelve angels,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and names written on them, which are the names of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]twelve tribes[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] of the children of Isreal[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Ezk. 48:31-35, (see Jehovah Shammah, = "Jehovah is there," Ezk.48:35.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]On the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]east three gates[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]; on the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]north three gates;[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] on the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]south three gates;[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and on the west three gates.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And the wall of the city had[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]twelve foundations[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and in them the names of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]twelve apostles of the Lamb.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]In the O.T. God attempted to obtain in his [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]chosen people Israel, faithfulness, fidelity and love and service.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Faithfulness[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] to Him Jehovah, as their “one true God.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Fidelity[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in their dealings and actions with each other, and with Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Love[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] from them to Him for His care and protection of them, and service in witness![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]It failed. Israel was unfaithful with the gods of the local neighbours, they did not honour Jehovah’s name among themselves or the nations around them. For their sin, after they warred and split when Solomon died, the presence (Glory) of Jehovah departed from them, and they were exiled to Babylon, and Syria. Even at this low ebb, God promised not to abandon them, so as to keep His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]that they would never cease to be a people on earth[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]He promised they would be revived, and eventually they as [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“the unfaithful wife,”[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](see Joel and elsewhere,) would become “the Bride,” (Isa. 49:18, 61:10, 62:5, John 3:29.) This promise entailed the fulfilling of the prophecy in Jer. 31:34,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and which CHRIST as JESUS achieved at His death on the cross outside the walls of Jerusalem.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]He witnessed to that fact at His last meal with the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]apostles, who are mentioned in V.14 above, (see Matt. 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] They were sent to Israel only, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]to witness that fact. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Of those[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]who are the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Overcomers [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]of earlier chapters and descriptions, some are part of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“remnant,”[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]saved by Christ, whilst still in their flesh, so as to[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]fulfil God’s early promises, re the survival of Israel, and so that Satan could not obtain victory on earth by defeating a promise of God.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] The twelve apostles are therefore the above mentioned foundations, underpinning the Twelve Tribes (gates,) of whom are made up of all the people of Israel and proselytes that form the Bride, after the resurrection of O.T. Israel, as mentioned in Ezekiel, and Daniel 12.[/SIZE]

Floyd.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Pelaides.

Pelaides said:
this has nothing to do with the jehova witnesses,it has to do with alot of people walking in darkness who need enlighting.What are you anyway,a coward whos scared to debate,or an egotist who wants topics with his name on them?shalom.
Sounds like I touched a nerve. Look, I'm not picking a fight, but you've GOT to understand that we MAY have given Yeshua` too high a position since the early centuries of the Roman Catholic Church. It was THEY who "leaned" on their opponents and FORCED the world to accept the Trinitarian view! Now, we're so confused about the Trinity that NO ONE can even give a satisfactory analogy of the Trinity!

The REAL problem is that so many of those who call themselves "Christian" have an unhealthy view on Yeshua`s role with His Father and have even said that God's name is "JESUS!" That's TOTALLY unsupported by the Scriptures! Most focus so much on the "NAME" of God's Son, that they no longer understand that the word translated as "name," particularly in the Hebrew, refers to the "AUTHORITY" of the Son, not His literal, given name! Furthermore, we have so Anglicized His given name and Americanized all of the history and the theology we've adopted from the RCC that we even think His given name is "JESUS" instead of the more Hebrew/Aramaic pronunciation of "Yeshua`!" It truly is ridiculous, absurd, and audacious for Americans (and British) to take such a stance!

Did Yeshua` or did He not PRAY TO HIS FATHER?! Did He not say to His Father, "Not my will but thine be done"? Two wills of the ONE God?! What did Yeshua` actually mean when He said, "I and my Father are one"?
 

shturt678

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Pelaides.


Sounds like I touched a nerve. Look, I'm not picking a fight, but you've GOT to understand that we MAY have given Yeshua` too high a position since the early centuries of the Roman Catholic Church. It was THEY who "leaned" on their opponents and FORCED the world to accept the Trinitarian view! Now, we're so confused about the Trinity that NO ONE can even give a satisfactory analogy of the Trinity!

The REAL problem is that so many of those who call themselves "Christian" have an unhealthy view on Yeshua`s role with His Father and have even said that God's name is "JESUS!" That's TOTALLY unsupported by the Scriptures! Most focus so much on the "NAME" of God's Son, that they no longer understand that the word translated as "name," particularly in the Hebrew, refers to the "AUTHORITY" of the Son, not His literal, given name! Furthermore, we have so Anglicized His given name and Americanized all of the history and the theology we've adopted from the RCC that we even think His given name is "JESUS" instead of the more Hebrew/Aramaic pronunciation of "Yeshua`!" It truly is ridiculous, absurd, and audacious for Americans (and British) to take such a stance!

Did Yeshua` or did He not PRAY TO HIS FATHER?! Did He not say to His Father, "Not my will but thine be done"? Two wills of the ONE God?! What did Yeshua` actually mean when He said, "I and my Father are one"?
Thank you for caring again!

Let's eyeball Yeshoshua'a or Yeshu'u together. This is the common alternative name among the Jews if I recall correctly, ie, corresponding to the Godman Jesus.....Yeshua is extensively used by followers of Messianic Judaism as well as other Christian denominations who wish to use what they consider to be Jesus' Hebrew or Aramaic name also if I recall correctly.

Not that it's of import, I'm more from the Lutheran camp (ELCA) that agapes the LORD Lord Godman Yeshua,

Old Jack
 

michaelvpardo

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Pelaides.


Sounds like I touched a nerve. Look, I'm not picking a fight, but you've GOT to understand that we MAY have given Yeshua` too high a position since the early centuries of the Roman Catholic Church. It was THEY who "leaned" on their opponents and FORCED the world to accept the Trinitarian view! Now, we're so confused about the Trinity that NO ONE can even give a satisfactory analogy of the Trinity!

The REAL problem is that so many of those who call themselves "Christian" have an unhealthy view on Yeshua`s role with His Father and have even said that God's name is "JESUS!" That's TOTALLY unsupported by the Scriptures! Most focus so much on the "NAME" of God's Son, that they no longer understand that the word translated as "name," particularly in the Hebrew, refers to the "AUTHORITY" of the Son, not His literal, given name! Furthermore, we have so Anglicized His given name and Americanized all of the history and the theology we've adopted from the RCC that we even think His given name is "JESUS" instead of the more Hebrew/Aramaic pronunciation of "Yeshua`!" It truly is ridiculous, absurd, and audacious for Americans (and British) to take such a stance!

Did Yeshua` or did He not PRAY TO HIS FATHER?! Did He not say to His Father, "Not my will but thine be done"? Two wills of the ONE God?! What did Yeshua` actually mean when He said, "I and my Father are one"?
Hello Retrobyter,
While I've found the concept of the godhead to be difficult to grasp in my youth, I have no such problems now. I don't know if Roman Catholicism is "guilty" of making Jesus to be more than He is, since His own claim was that the Law and the Prophets gave testimony of Him. Yes, Jesus did pray to God the Father and said that He only did the works of the Father or that which the Father showed Him, but that doesn't make Him any less deity. I don't think that any of us will understand this completely until we see Him as He is. I'm inclined to believe that it was Jesus that gave Moses the covenant name by which Israel would call Him. Consider that John tells us that no one has seen God at any time, but Moses spoke to Him face to face, like a friend. I try to put it this way, the Father is separate from His creation, being the Eternal Creator, yet remains omnipresent. Jesus said that God is Spirit, but how does one see a spirit when spirit is by definition non material. God humbled Himself to enter into His creation, in the person of His Son (Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. Hebrews 10:5). I don't believe there is any verse of NT scripture that specifically equates the Father with the covenant name and usually we see descriptions of God appearing (in the OT) in the form of "His Angel" or "the angel of the Lord" which most evangelical scholars equate with the pre-incarnate Christ.
Jesus also instructed His disciples to make disciples of men, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This isn't redundant in the sense of a Trinitarian God (One God manifest in three ways or persons) but does give us a hierarchical order of the divinity. How does the infinite take upon Himself a finite form? Simple answer, He prepares a body for Himself and inhabits it. Since God is a god of order, we have hierarchy but this has nothing specifically to do with equality. The New testament declares men and women as equals, yet also gives men authority over women (father over daughters, husbands over wives). The distinction is in hierarchy (or the order established by God in creation.) Since God chose to enter into His creation, it is only reasonable that He created a hierarchy for His own person as well as all of creation. Making Jesus something less than God has always been the way of the cults, so I would suggest that you not go there, even in your mind, lest you be brought into captivity through vanity.
I won't argue through verses and original languages (because I don't have any thorough understanding of them and what scripture plainly says is enough to satisfy what I know experientially to be true.)
I am curious, if you want to follow the cultic interpretations, how do you explain Thomas' confession before the resurrected Lord (John 20:28)? My literal version with Strongs' definitions says that he used the words Kurios and theos. What else could he have meant other than God? (note Jesus' response).
The angels clearly don't understand all this, so it seems presumptive to assume that we do, but what purpose does it serve to call Jesus in some way inferior to His Father?
 

shturt678

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Michael V Pardo said:
Hello Retrobyter,
While I've found the concept of the godhead to be difficult to grasp in my youth, I have no such problems now. I don't know if Roman Catholicism is "guilty" of making Jesus to be more than He is, since His own claim was that the Law and the Prophets gave testimony of Him. Yes, Jesus did pray to God the Father and said that He only did the works of the Father or that which the Father showed Him, but that doesn't make Him any less deity. I don't think that any of us will understand this completely until we see Him as He is. I'm inclined to believe that it was Jesus that gave Moses the covenant name by which Israel would call Him. Consider that John tells us that no one has seen God at any time, but Moses spoke to Him face to face, like a friend. I try to put it this way, the Father is separate from His creation, being the Eternal Creator, yet remains omnipresent. Jesus said that God is Spirit, but how does one see a spirit when spirit is by definition non material. God humbled Himself to enter into His creation, in the person of His Son (Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. Hebrews 10:5). I don't believe there is any verse of NT scripture that specifically equates the Father with the covenant name and usually we see descriptions of God appearing (in the OT) in the form of "His Angel" or "the angel of the Lord" which most evangelical scholars equate with the pre-incarnate Christ.
Jesus also instructed His disciples to make disciples of men, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This isn't redundant in the sense of a Trinitarian God (One God manifest in three ways or persons) but does give us a hierarchical order of the divinity. How does the infinite take upon Himself a finite form? Simple answer, He prepares a body for Himself and inhabits it. Since God is a god of order, we have hierarchy but this has nothing specifically to do with equality. The New testament declares men and women as equals, yet also gives men authority over women (father over daughters, husbands over wives). The distinction is in hierarchy (or the order established by God in creation.) Since God chose to enter into His creation, it is only reasonable that He created a hierarchy for His own person as well as all of creation. Making Jesus something less than God has always been the way of the cults, so I would suggest that you not go there, even in your mind, lest you be brought into captivity through vanity.
I won't argue through verses and original languages (because I don't have any thorough understanding of them and what scripture plainly says is enough to satisfy what I know experientially to be true.)
I am curious, if you want to follow the cultic interpretations, how do you explain Thomas' confession before the resurrected Lord (John 20:28)? My literal version with Strongs' definitions says that he used the words Kurios and theos. What else could he have meant other than God? (note Jesus' response).
The angels clearly don't understand all this, so it seems presumptive to assume that we do, but what purpose does it serve to call Jesus in some way inferior to His Father?
Thank you for all your effort and caring!

You just made an old Lutheran man's afternoon - Thank you!

Old Jack that needed a jump start, Reeses Butter Cups didn't do it this time.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Michael.

Michael V Pardo said:
Hello Retrobyter,
While I've found the concept of the godhead to be difficult to grasp in my youth, I have no such problems now. I don't know if Roman Catholicism is "guilty" of making Jesus to be more than He is, since His own claim was that the Law and the Prophets gave testimony of Him. Yes, Jesus did pray to God the Father and said that He only did the works of the Father or that which the Father showed Him, but that doesn't make Him any less deity. I don't think that any of us will understand this completely until we see Him as He is. I'm inclined to believe that it was Jesus that gave Moses the covenant name by which Israel would call Him. Consider that John tells us that no one has seen God at any time, but Moses spoke to Him face to face, like a friend. I try to put it this way, the Father is separate from His creation, being the Eternal Creator, yet remains omnipresent. Jesus said that God is Spirit, but how does one see a spirit when spirit is by definition non material. God humbled Himself to enter into His creation, in the person of His Son (Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. Hebrews 10:5). I don't believe there is any verse of NT scripture that specifically equates the Father with the covenant name and usually we see descriptions of God appearing (in the OT) in the form of "His Angel" or "the angel of the Lord" which most evangelical scholars equate with the pre-incarnate Christ.
Jesus also instructed His disciples to make disciples of men, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This isn't redundant in the sense of a Trinitarian God (One God manifest in three ways or persons) but does give us a hierarchical order of the divinity. How does the infinite take upon Himself a finite form? Simple answer, He prepares a body for Himself and inhabits it. Since God is a god of order, we have hierarchy but this has nothing specifically to do with equality. The New testament declares men and women as equals, yet also gives men authority over women (father over daughters, husbands over wives). The distinction is in hierarchy (or the order established by God in creation.) Since God chose to enter into His creation, it is only reasonable that He created a hierarchy for His own person as well as all of creation. Making Jesus something less than God has always been the way of the cults, so I would suggest that you not go there, even in your mind, lest you be brought into captivity through vanity.
I won't argue through verses and original languages (because I don't have any thorough understanding of them and what scripture plainly says is enough to satisfy what I know experientially to be true.)
I am curious, if you want to follow the cultic interpretations, how do you explain Thomas' confession before the resurrected Lord (John 20:28)? My literal version with Strongs' definitions says that he used the words Kurios and theos. What else could he have meant other than God? (note Jesus' response).
The angels clearly don't understand all this, so it seems presumptive to assume that we do, but what purpose does it serve to call Jesus in some way inferior to His Father?
You're assuming that I am making Him somehow inferior to His Father. Has it ever occurred to you that Yeshua` HIMSELF continues to make Himself "inferior" to His Father?

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV


It is NOT something that Yeshua` only did while He was here during His first Advent. He will CONTINUE to put Himself in subjection to His Father! The above passage is not fulfilled until AFTER the Millennium! During the Millennium, He will be continuing to subject everything else to Himself, "putting all things under His feet!"

Again, the Scriptures NEVER call Him "God the Son!" That's purely from the rhetoric of theological philosophy. He is often called the "Son of man" which means He is a TRUE human being. Occasionally, He is called the "Son of God," usually by those who oppose Him. Y'know, demons and those who rejected Him, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I also believe John's account; I believe that He is the Word and that the Word was with God and that the Word WAS God and that the same Word was in the beginning (of creation) with God. I also believe that all things were made by Him and that nothing was made without Him. HOWEVER, then John tells us that the Word was made FLESH and dwelt among us!

TIME is a dimension frequently ignored by dichotomous thinkers. Before the Incarnation, He was with God and He was God. After the Incarnation, He becomes FLESH, with all of the limitations so imposed (even if self-imposed). Even to this day, He has a body! (AND, it IS a physical body, even if raised to incorruption and immortality. The problem many have in understanding this is that they fail to understand that "spiritual" does NOT mean "non-physical!" That's an ASSUMPTION that many make based on one or two verses, and making assumptions is a DANGEROUS prospect at best!) That person so born and growing into maturity was/is called "the Christ," which is the Greek (transliterated into English) form of "the Messiah," which is the Hebrew (transliterated into English).

Also, I think you must have missed post #9 (to Jack) above. Those ARE ALL of the occurrences of "angel of the LORD." (Literally, I did a search on "angel+Lord" without making it restricted by capitalization. Once the Strong's numbers for "mal'akh" and "YHWH" were found, OT:4397 and OT:3068 respectively, I did an Englishman's Concordance search, which takes the search back to the actual Hebrew words involved. This minimizes the affect that searching for the English words might have in translation.)

You can be "inclined" to believe anything that you wish, but without the support of proof from God's Word.
 

Madad21

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.



That's a THEORY, but it has no biblical backing! NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that these appearances of an "angel of the LORD" are a "pre-incarnate appearance of Christ" nor does the text suggest it, let alone demand it! I've done the research, and here are my findings. These are ALL the places in Scripture that use the phrase "the angel of the LORD" or "the angel of the Lord":
Wow retro thanks for pointing out all the places in the Bible where it refers to The Angel of The Lord as proof of your very thorough research, excellent work!! :D

I suppose your right, they wouldn't say that these appearances are the pre-incarnate Christ. Actually you kind of get the feeling that nobody would have pieced that little gem of wizardry together until after Christ had been reveled in history post 1BC. but that's just crazy talk right? I mean when had anything in the New Testament ever been revealed first in the Old?
Just look at this Judges account below, here we have this Angel of the LORD, revealing himself as a man speaking as God himself receiving worship and preforming Miracles. When did that ever happen in the New Testament ....*tisk*....Ol Jack is so silly. (I think its an age thing, dont tell him I said that) :ph34r:

But....as long as you went through and found all those passages, you should have it covered ;)

Judges 6:11-24

11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.”
13 “Pardon me, my lord,” Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.”

Here it looks as though this angel has not been recognised as the Lord, but brings the message that the Lord is with Gideon which implies this angel is just a messenger of the Lord.

14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?”

Now you could be forgiven for saying that the first part of the above sentence referrers to "Adonai," but then you run into the obstacle of the last statement “Am I not sending you?” after Gideons complaint that the Lord as in “YHWH” had abandoned them.
Surly this "Adonai" isnt speaking as God?

15 “Pardon me, my lord,” Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.”
16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.”

Here again we run into the same problem this mere messenger once again takes the role of “YHWH” when he tells Gideon that he will be with him and he assures Gideon of his success.
This is a little reminiscent of many OT promises of God not the least of which (Deut 31:8)
“The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged."

17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.”
And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.”

This messenger or angel of the Lord has spoken as if he were the Lord God himself and Gideon has recognised this, but Gideon wants to make sure, but why?
If this were an angel before Gideon he would have likely fell to his face and been in fear as many are when angels appear (Luke 2:10). This tells us that the person who is speaking to Gideon has revealed himself in the form of a normal looking man, hence Gideon wants to know what he is saying is true, if He truly does speak as God. Gideon wants to bring an offering before this mere man who is an angel. this isnt something you did in the these times unless your offering came before God himself. This man assumes to speak as God so Gideon tests him, that if he is God then he will consume the offering! not only that but this mere angel in the form of a man assumes to accept this offering! Had the rules of Angel worship changed from the Genesis to Revelation? (Rev 22:9)

19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.
20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.” And Gideon did so.
21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!” 23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.

What do ya know the offering is spectacularly consumed, is this just a coincidence??
So now we know this man was not just a man as Gideon had tested because no man can preform miracles simply disappear, but what is more interesting is Gideons response. Why would Gideon be suddenly afraid that he would die if the Lord he had seen was merely 'Adoni'?,
(Deut 5:26)( Ex 3:6) these scriptures both before his time testify that only those who see YHWH himself will die, so why was Gideon so afraid?

24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

So in the above account we have The Angel of the Lord appearing as a normal man and speaking as God and preforming miracles.
If it were “An” angel of the Lord it normally appears and scares everyone as is always reference in the NT (Luke 2:9-11) as an example, and they bring messages from the Lord. But this particular Angel who appears as a normal man speaks as the Lord in the first person and is feared by Gideon as the Lord God himself.
'

Retrobyter said:
So, when David said, ...

Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
KJV


... he was using both words, "YHWH" and "Adoniy." (If your English version doesn't make a distinction between these two words in translation, you've lost valuable and pertinent information in the translation.)

UNFORTUNATELY, the Greek translation of these words DO NOT make this distinction! This can be VERY disconcerting if one doesn't know the verse being quoted or being referenced. Consequently, neither does the New Testament, even of the KJV! One absolutely MUST see what someone was quoting to know whether the "Lord" should be "LORD" or remain "Lord," whether it is a translation of the Hebrew "YHWH" or "Adonai," respectively.

This results in not knowing whether the "Lord" of the New Testament is referring to God the Father or to the Son of God, Yeshua` (Jesus)!

A case in point is the following dialogue:

Matthew 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
KJV


If one didn't know that this verse quoted in verse 44 is from the above verse in the Old Testament, one might be confused by the way that the Greek uses the same word ("kurios") for BOTH instances of "Lord" in verse 44! And, this is just one of MANY such quotations that use one or the other from the Old Testament.

Many do not make the NECESSARY distinction between Yeshua` and God the Father that the Scriptures constantly emphasize. Trinitarian belief has degenerated to a common belief today that Yeshua` IS God (although He made no such claim for Himself). At best, Yeshua` acknowledged that He was "the Son of God." Most often, He called Himself "the Son of man," tantamount to saying a "true Human Being." He was constantly praying to His Father, and His will was not always in sync with His Father's will (although He bowed to His Father's will).
The only thing you are right about here is the translation of Psalm 110, unfortunately you have allowed this to inform your theology concerning the deity of Christ as God the Son,

Psalm 110:1
1 The LORD says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”

Yes this is true as it is in the willful subordination from equality with God as God, God is One

Philippians 2:6 “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;”

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
(do a study in to this scripture man its a real eye popper!)

Colossians 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell

Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Retrobyter said:
Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, the Son of David, was/is the Son of God in the SAME WAY as Shlomoh (Solomon) was!
When you made your leap from Chronicles to Matthew you skipped one important detail regarding what many would observe as the major distinction between Solomon the son of David and the Messiah Son of God and the obstacle which you encounter.

Luke 1:35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

In light of this I fail to see the deity in Solomon by way of an immaculate conception the "SAME WAY" as the Messiah was. In fact I would say that apart from Mary's womb (which is the blood line of David) and Gods promise to Abraham the difference is quite vast.

However if the distinction you are trying to make is Solomon as the foreshadowing of Messiah, then that parallel has been repeated since Noah, it in no way diminishes the divinity of Christ, that is unless you deny the virgin birth.

The above scriptures I had provided and so many more like it testify to Jesus the man being of the same "Substance" as the Father
John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works".


Now to your original point re translation of LORD and Lord I find no qualm as the subordination of the Son is always to the Father.

But as for your position about worship "Mights" do not cut the mustard and you are making an assumption based only on your own bias regarding Christs divinity. wasnt it you who scorned another by saying;
That's an ASSUMPTION, and making assumptions is a DANGEROUS prospect at best!)
As far as Christs divinity goes as God in the flesh and in light of all I have shown you and no doubt more to come, nothing you have said in your OP has proven in any way what-so-ever apart from the regular baseless Arian style rhetoric that Jesus is not God of the same substance as God.


Peace !! :)

.