Shabbat shalom to all.
Retrobyter said:
...
It was that he (Daniel) only existed until the first year of King Koresh; it's that he remained IN THIS POSITION OF THE KING'S SERVICE until the first year of King Cyrus! Later, Daniel was discovered to be a valuable asset to other kings, kings of Persia, as well! The text NEVER says that Dani'el DIED in Cyrus' first year! SHEESH! How dense can one get?!
Sheesh! What a glaring error! It should read,
"It was NOT that he (Daniel) only existed until the first year of King Koresh...."
I could have SWORN I "tied a NOT in that sentence!" See? We ALL make errors!
Now,...
Shabbat shalom, DaDad.
DaDad said:
To All,
21. And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.
2l. Et fuit Daniel usque ad annum primum Cyri regis.
Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense. 99
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/calvin/cc24/cc24006.htm
Septuagint:
1:21 καὶ ἐγένετο Δανιηλ ἕως ἔτους ἑνὸς Κύρου τοῦ βασιλέως
BLUE LETTER BIBLE
Masoretic:
And Daniel h1840 דִּנִיֵּאל
Daniye'l
continued even unto the first h259 אֶחָד
'echad
year h8141 שָׁנָה
shaneh (in pl. only),
of king h4428 מֶלֶךְ
melek
Cyrus. h3566 כּוֹרֶשׁ
Kowresh
KJV
And Daniel continued
even unto the first year of king Cyrus.
NKJV
Thus Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.
NLT
Daniel remained in the royal service until the first year of the reign of King Cyrus.fn
NIV
And Daniel remained there until the first year of King Cyrus.
ESV
And Daniel was there until the first year of King Cyrus.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=1&t=KJV#s=t_conc_851021
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=1&t=KJV#s=t_bibles_851021
Per the above, I cannot attribute how the "
expositors" attributed the text "
היה, "
as 'to be “broken;'", but if "Retrobyter" wishes to infer that Daniel continued in his services PAST the First year of Cyrus, whereupon Daniel continued in another capacity, -- I would suggest that this presumption is faulty:
1. If this is so obvious to "Retrobyter" that anyone who can't perceive this "
fact" is dense, then does "Retrobyter" accuse the expositors of incompetence? Certainly Calvin would have had ability to read Hebrew, and certainly Calvin's expositors certainly would have been as proficient if not more so than Calvin. So who is it that slanders Calvin and his expositors?!?
2. If "Retrobyter" wishes to presume additional responsibilities subsequent to the "
first year of King Cyrus", then why does Dan. 10:1 suggest otherwise?
3. If Dan. 10:1 were written during Cyrus' dominion, then how is it that the presumed ~victorious Darius~ needed to be "
strengthened"? Did the United States need strengthening in the post WWII era? Did Tiger Woods need strengthening after each of his golf titles? -- I would propose that the victor DOES NOT need strengthening, but the LOSER DOES:
Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, ...
4. If Daniel 10:1 were written during Cyrus' dominion, then exactly who are the "
three more" and "
fourth" referenced in Dan. 11:2? (Please note that history disagrees with the purported "
biblical fulfillment".
5. The dictionary provides the example:
They danced until dawn.
To presume that they continued dancing
past dawn adds to the text, for which Revelation cautions against:
Rev. 22:18
I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
So once again, is there a solution where Daniel 1:21 and 10:1 are PERFECTLY CORRECT AS WRITTEN?
With Best Regards,
DD
You said,
"Per the above, I cannot attribute how the "expositors" attributed the text "היה, "as 'to be “broken;'", but if "Retrobyter" wishes to infer that Daniel continued in his services PAST the First year of Cyrus, whereupon Daniel continued in another capacity, -- I would suggest that this presumption is faulty:"
First of all, your "Blue Letter Bible" didn't give you any information on the words "continued even unto the," only on the word "first" which is "
echad" meaning "one." It missed a few words, probably because of the Hebrew order of the words. The Masoretic text (transliterated) reads:
Daniel 1:21
21 Vayhiy Daaniyee’l `ad shnat achat l-Kowresh hamelekh:
JPS Hebrew-Engish TANAKH
Here's the breakdown of the words:
Va- = connective conjunction; "And"
yhiy = 3rd person singular of
hayah; "he-existed"
Daaniyee'l = proper name; "Daniel"
`
ad = adverb; "to; unto; toward; until"
shnat = noun; "year"
achat = adjective number; "one; first"
l- = prefixed adverb = "to; for"
Kowresh = proper name; "Koresh; Cyrus"
ha- = prefixed definite article = "the"
melekh = noun; "king."
Thus, the straight translation of this sentence is "And he existed, Daniel, to year one for Koresh the king." For English's sake, we should add a word or two for clarification:
"And he existed
so, Daniel, to year one for Koresh the king."
or
"And he
thus existed, Daniel, to year one for Koresh the king."
or
"And he existed
this way, Daniel, to year one for Koresh the king."
One should NOT add "
only" to this sentence and assume that he
only lived that long when he clearly lived longer than that!
So, you then asked (generally to all instead of to me),
"1. If this is so obvious to 'Retrobyter' that anyone who can't perceive this 'fact' is dense, then does 'Retrobyter' accuse the expositors of incompetence? Certainly Calvin would have had ability to read Hebrew, and certainly Calvin's expositors certainly would have been as proficient if not more so than Calvin. So who is it that slanders Calvin and his expositors?!?"
Well, if they missed so obvious a meaning in translating Hebrew, then YES! There would be some incompetence in that omission, even if it was the great Calvin who missed it! Who was Calvin? Wasn't he just a man like you? Do you so revere the man that he could do no mistakes?! Be careful that you're not WORSHIPPING the man!
Then, you asked
"2. If 'Retrobyter' wishes to presume additional responsibilities subsequent to the 'first year of King Cyrus,' then why does Dan. 10:1 suggest otherwise?"
Daniel 10:1 does NOT "suggest otherwise." I'm going to use the NIV for this answer:
Daniel 10:1-3
1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
2 At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks. 3 I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.
NIV
Verses 2 and 3 clearly show that Daniel is STILL ALIVE in the third year of Koresh! Otherwise, it would make no sense for him to avoid "choice food," "meat," "wine," or "lotions!" That's my POINT! Daniel didn't "survive" until just the first year of Koresh; he "lasted as Nebuchadnezzar's chief advisor, his vizier" until the first year of Koresh! He "survived" LONG after that!
Then, you asked (stated),
"3. If Dan. 10:1 were written during Cyrus' dominion, then how is it that the presumed ~victorious Darius~ needed to be 'strengthened'? Did the United States need strengthening in the post WWII era? Did Tiger Woods need strengthening after each of his golf titles? -- I would propose that the victor DOES NOT need strengthening, but the LOSER DOES:
Proverbs 31:6
Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, ..."
This is when it dawned on me that you were confusing Daniel 10:1 with Daniel
11:1! (See? We ALL make mistakes!
EVEN YOU!)
I'm going to risk being a "Scripture monkey" again and give you the whole context to run into and beyond Daniel 11:1. Again, I'm going to use the NIV for its clarity:
Daniel 10:4-11:4
10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of the finest gold around his waist. 6 His body was like chrysolite (gold stone), his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.
10 A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 He said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you." And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.
12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."
15 While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. 16 Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I am helpless. 17 How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe."
18 Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. 19 "Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed," he said. "Peace! Be strong now; be strong."
When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength."
20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. 11:1 And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.)
2 "Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will appear in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece. 3 Then a mighty king will appear, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases. 4 After he has appeared, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised, because his empire will be uprooted and given to others. ..."
NIV
According to what we know of history and what this messenger tells Daniel, this "Darius the Mede" is Daryavesh (Darius) the SECOND who reigned from 424 to 404 B.C! The "three more kings" and "then a fourth" are Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) the second (404-358 B.C.), Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) the third (358-338 B.C.), Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) the fourth (338-336 B.C.), and Daryavesh (Darius) the third (336-330 B.C.) The "mighty king" who appears is Alexander (the third) the Great (330-323 B.C.) That pinpoints verse 11:1 occurring in 422 B.C. Notice this too:
This prophecy is
NOT CONNECTED to the first three verses of chapter 10! That's a short and different prophecy of which we are not told much except that it occurred and that it was about a coming "great war."
This is the great problem with chapter and verse divisions in the Bible. Often, they were made with precision, but all too frequently, they were made arbitrarily and at the worst possible points! Chapter and verse divisions ARE
NOT INSPIRED!!!
So, this tells us also that Daniel was alive until 422 B.C!
Wikipedia has this to say about Daniel's lifespan:
Daniel's final days
The time and circumstances of Daniel's death have not been recorded. However, tradition maintains that Daniel was still alive in the third year of Cyrus according to the Tanakh (Daniel 10:1). He would have been almost 101 years old at that point, having been brought to Babylon when he was in his teens, more than 80 years previously. Rabbinic sources indicate that he was still alive during the reign of the Persian king Ahasuerus (Babylonian Talmud, Megillah 15a based on Book of Esther 4, 5). Some say he was killed by Haman, the prime minister of Ahasuerus (Targum Sheini on Esther, 4, 11). Many[who?] posit that he possibly died at Susa in Iran. Tradition holds that his tomb is located in Susa at a site known as Shush-e Daniyal. Other locations have been claimed as the site of his burial, including Daniel's Tomb in Kirkuk, Iraq, as well as Babylon, Egypt, Tarsus and, notably, Samarkand, which claims a tomb of Daniel (see "The Ruins of Afrasiab" in the Samarkand article), with some traditions suggesting that his remains were removed, perhaps by Tamerlane, from Susa to Samarkand (see, for instance, Itinerary of Benjamin of Tudela, section 153).
(Emphasis mine.)
Several people in the Bible were people of great longevity. Of course, the antediluvian society reported ages greater than 700 years old, but even Noach (Noah) AFTER the Flood survived an additional 350 years to 950 years total (Gen. 9:28-29). Shem lived for a total of 600 years (Gen. 11:10-11); Arpakhshad (Arphaxad) lived for a total of 438 years (Gen. 11:12-13); Shelach (Salah) lived for a total of 435 years (Gen. 11:14-15); Eever (Eber) lived for a total of 464 years (Gen. 11:16-17); Peleg lived for a total of 239 years as did his son Reu (Gen. 11:18-21). Avraham (Abraham) lived to 175 years old (Gen. 25:7); Yitschaq was 180 years old when he died (Gen. 35:28), and Mosheh (Moses) lived to 120 years old (Deut. 34:7), and we learn that, if it hadn't been for his sin, he may have lived longer:
Deuteronomy 34:4-7
4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
KJV
So, it shouldn't be any great stretch of the imagination to recognize Daniel living so long. N'vukhadne'tsar (Nebuchadnezzar) II reigned from 605-562 B.C. and Daniel was probably first taken captive as a teenager in the 605 B.C. captivity. This means that he could have been between 195 and 200 years old in Daniel 11:1.
You simply MUST quit looking at all prophecies as though they are yet to be fulfilled! Some have ALREADY been fulfilled and won't be fulfilled again!
