Thoughts on Israel/Hezbollah War

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HammerStone

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I saw this point made in a post the other day, and I think it's very valid. We keep hearing of these civilian casualties in Lebanon. I don't think anyone is going to say that there are no innocent casualties. However, we tend to accept these figures given by the Lebanese government and Hezbollah without question.In fact, I can remember in the initial days of what was going on that the Lebanese Prime Minister would gives figures of the dead at about 100-200 more than other figures from other sources. Reporters on the Hezbollah side of things even remark on how they are whisked from site to site and only allowed to look around a short time. Supposedly bodies are laying under blankets and so on, but who knows? Another thing is we never hear Hezbollah's dead count. These guys are masters at waging a PR war; yet we accept what they say almost without question.I mean we're listening to a guy give casualty numbers from a part of the country he obviously didn't even control. Who's he getting these figures from? Common sense would say Hezbollah.
 

Christina

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You are so right Swampfox the first couple days after that building with the women and chidren in it they were saying around 58 dead including 21children yesterday they said their was 28 people 13 being children.Which is still a terriable thing but it seems like the media as a side note mentions the dead in Israel yesterday they reported 8 people in Israel killed no pictures of crying women and children,today a mother of two and a pregant woman were killed again barely a mention.Hezbollah uses the media as part of their weapons arsenal
 

HammerStone

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They use the media as their main arsenal to be honest; they are masters at what they do. The media prides itself on being so intelligent in fair in what they do that they fail to see their own ignorance quite often. Mark my words, America will never truly win another war because of the media no matter how evil the enemy.It's not like Israel goes in and drops an unexpected payload of bombs on the local hospitals, mosques, and churches unlike Hezbollah. In most cases they have dropped leaflets long before they bombed warning civilians to get out. Which makes one wonder if these people are either:a) That dedicated to Hezbollah.
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Held against their will and used as human shields.c) Simply that ignorant.I believe in most cases it's the top two with option
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being the main reason.It works the same way with the kidnapping trends. If the media would stop showing the videos that these terrorist groups run of them announcing kidnappings and killing then they'd drop off. The only reason they do it is because the media as a whole eats it up. Quite frankly, in my opinion, these media groups have blood on their hands and I think they will be held accountable for it one day.
 

Christina

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I keep hearing all these media reports on how they are going to have to get a cease fire agreement within a few days because of all the worlds public outcry Am I missing somthing of course we hear outcry from the Lebanisecitizens but other than the media and the polititians saying its so, the only public outcry I have seen is from Muslims and half of that is probaly staged.So where is all this massive public outcry I keep hearing about?oh,yeah I did read today that 20 people in N.Russia burnt an Israeli and U.S.flag is that the massive outcry of which they speak? Even S.Arabia,and Eygpt are fairly quiet.
 

BernieEOD

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War takes on two dimensions, Strategic and tactical. The IDF is currently unable to win tactially, in three weeks of operations, they could not stop the rockets from being launched. Thier strategic operation is where they are making more enemies than they are killing. To move beyond the theatre of operations and strike office buildings, apartments, and other structures they claim to house enemy command centers, sipplies, and other assets is to enrage the rest of the world. Once again, western wonder weapons are not proving to be as wonderful as expected.
 

HammerStone

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That leaves a couple questions, though.1) How do you remove an enemy that is very adept at firing and melting into the civilian shadows?2) How do you actually win a press war at this level and at what cost to your own nation (speaking from Israel's point of view)?Who can blame Israel for not wanting to get into another occupation; which would have enraged the same people that are being enraged now? How can you rely on a government that cannot even control (I question if its willingly or not?) all of its own territory? That being said, I think the past decade or so has proven that the air campaign tactics alone simply don't work. They've tried for several years now to go the diplomatic route yet all it got them was UN observers watching Hezbollah kidnap soldiers and launch attacks. It continues to work the same way with the UN, they draft a resolution, a few members pout about the loss of life, and then everyone forgets after things calm down; the best result is general a short term "peace" of some fashion or another. The one group be it a political party here in America or politicians elsewhere take credit and the cycle repeats itself.
 

Christina

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No one likes to see civilians killed but lets face reality these civilians are the same people that voted Hezbolla into office so by proxy dosent that make them as much the enemy as the Hezbolla.Terrorists or supporter of terror from Israels point of view how much distiction can afford to make?We need to learn to adopt more of Israels attitude,there is no such thing as a nice war.
 

HammerStone

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http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/...main/index.html
BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said Monday that one person was killed in an Israeli airstrike on the southern village of Houla, not 40 as he had earlier reported. "The massacre in Houla, it turned out that there was one person killed," Reuters quoted Siniora as saying. "They thought that the whole building smashed on the heads of about 40 people ... thank God they have been saved." Siniora had earlier told Arab foreign ministers in Beirut that the attack "was a horrific massacre ... in which more than 40 martyrs were victims of deliberate bombing."
"Oops."
 

BernieEOD

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The rocket launchers are in the southern border region, not in downtown Beruit. To expand the war beyond the imediate theater of operations makes the war worse than it otherwise would be. It would have ben better for the IDF to perform a pincer manuver and encircle the area where the rockets are being launched. Then, tighten the nose and pumel them merclesly demmanding uconditional surrender. The roads to the area were not even severed until this last week. This should have been done on the first day!It appears that the IDF does not have a plan. Bombing a rocket launcher is one thing, bombing an apartment complex in downtown Beruit claiming it was an enemy headquarters is quite another. Isreal is squandering what little goodwil they have by bombing outside the tactical area.
 

Christina

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how do you target a launcher on the back of a pickup in a residenual area or on the roof of an apartment builing without hitting the building ?
 

HammerStone

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The rocket launchers are in the southern border region, not in downtown Beruit.
Correction, it's not downtown Beirut unless that's another name for southern Beirut where the bombing is. I've heard several people make the comment that central Beiruit is untouched and you wouldn't know there was a war going on with the exception of the deserted streets. The only area being bombed is a known Hezbollah area.I agree with the statement that Israel should have cut everything off initially, but I think the idea may have been as a route for people who really wanted to get out. Anything we can say here is pure speculation, though.
 

Christina

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View this one-minute, incriminating drone-view video of Hizbullah “civilian” terrorists utilizing homes for the preparation and launching of missiles into northern Israel. A normal tactic for arab terrorists is to force Israel to protect its citizens by launching attacks in civilian areas in Lebanon, and then accuse Israel of “war crimes” and “intentional attacks on innocent civilians”.http://www.israelreporter.com/
 

BernieEOD

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For your information, what is shown in the picture before the video is not a rocket launcher. It is a ZU-23 anti aircraft gun. Not what you would want to show if you wish to discuss how evil the enemy is unless you want to be outraged at the Lebanese defending themselves. "How dare you shoot back?"As far as the drone video goes, that was a valid hit. And if this is all that was happening then it would not be a problem. Bombs are falling in Beruit as well as the theater of operations where the rockets are bing launched.I for one refuse to use the word "Terrorist". One mans "Terrorist" is another mans freedom fighter. When we bomb civilians, its called "Strategic Bombing"When they return the favor, its called "Terrorism".The sad truth is that all of the worlds so called terrorist organizations have a long way to go before they kill as many civilian non combatants as the USAF has.
 

Christina

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Is this to big a target to pass up if Hezzbolla has missiles that can reach this far Im not sure they wouldn't find this gathering a perfect senerio to risk their launchers getting blown to pieces.-------------------------------------------------------------------------Jerusalam 08 August 2006Mitzad Ha'anava: Tonight's the night!With the blessings of this generation's leading spiritual leaders, tonight G-d willing, more than 22,000 people will gather in Teddy Stadium to celebrate the holiness of Jerusalem, the 20th anniversary of "Shofar" - Rav Amnon Yitzchak's Jewish Outreach organization, and to pray for the welfare of our beloved homeland, nation of Israel, the POWs, and Israel's courageous defenders. Rav Amnon shlit'a has many more surprises up his sleeve, so this is bound to be an unforgettable evening. The sanctity of such a gathering has the spiritual power to break the back of evil. Mitz'ad Ha'Anava, "the parade of the humble", is our answer to those who seek to destroy Jerusalem and our Holy Land of Israel with their abominations. Click here to hear Erez Yechiel sing the theme-song he wrote especially for Mitz'ad Ha'Anava. For those who read Hebrew, the words appear on the above link page.The event begins at 7PM sharp, but the stadium gates will open at 4:30PM.
 

BernieEOD

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It is doubtful that their rockets can reach Jeruselem. Even so, their accuracy is at the point where landing inside the city limits is considered a "Hit"Actually, if the rocket makes it accross the border they condiser it a sucess.
 

sunny

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‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations; but if you return to Me, and keep My commandments and do them, though some of you were cast out to the farthest part of the heavens, yet I will gather them from there, and bring them to the place which I have chosen as a dwelling for My name.’ Nehemiah 1:8-9This is what God did – scattered the Israelites, and this is what He promises to do if they turn to Him and be faithful – bring them back together. We may discuss and argue about the number of casualties, mass media coverage and PR – but does this really change anything? God made His point clear - they will not be at peace as a nation until/unless they return to Him.We may spend all our human effort on trying to figure out the facts – but does this benefit or comfort anyone? Especially the families of those who died and will die in this war, including hezbollah families.
 

HammerStone

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Welcome aboard sunny, I see this is your first post.What you said is certainly true. Regardless of what we think, the hate and animosity over there is Biblical prophecy unfolding and that is what's important to me. I hate to see death come to anyone's door but it's happened all throughout history and it's not stopping until that day that Jesus comes back in all His glory.As it is written in 1 Corinthians 1:25-27:(25)Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (26)For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: (27)But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;God certainly confounds what little knowledge we have about everything. There's no doubt about that in my mind. However, I think we have to do our best to remain vigilant on both the spiritual and physical levels. We know that there are powers and principalities at work in this world that will come to a head sometime in the future. I think we cannot remain ignorant of what happens in the world. God is a freewill God and even though he knows what choices we'll make and what we'll do; and, more importantly, he is indeed in ultimate control, we still (as Chrisitans) have to do our best to use the both the wisdom and common sense God has given us. We still have to make the choices and do the right things.Bernie, you continue to deny the existence of terrorism, all I ask for anyone reading this thread is that you remember Amalek:Deutoronomy 27:17-19(17)Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt; (18)How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God. (19)Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.But let's go back to the story, because there's something of the utmost importance about it.Exodus 17:8-14(8)Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. (9)And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand. (10)So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. (11) And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed. (12)But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. (13)And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. (14)And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.Notice from Deutoronomy that Amalek attacked from the rear where the weaker parties were: women, children, the elderly and so on. Notice that in the preceeding verses, the children of Israel had made mistakes and "tempted God." Also notice that there is no appearance of God to say "Go and smite Amalek", they simple gathered and took care of business after the episode at Meribah. Why? Because God gives his children discernment from good and evil. Amalek was wiped from the face of the earth with God's specific instructions not to forget what happened.That is terrorism, plain and simple.There's also one more thing worth pointing out about Amalek.Genesis 36:12And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz Esau's son; and she bare to Eliphaz Amalek: these were the sons of Adah Esau's wife.
 

Christina

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Late…but Not Too Late” - Statement Issued by Likud leader Bibi NetanyahuThe government’s decision comes late, very late, but not too late. Destroying Hizbullah’s fighting capacity and missile arsenal remains the objective that Israel must achieve. Clearly, air power alone cannot do so and a major ground offensive is necessary. While this should have been done considerably earlier, it nevertheless should be done today. Firstly, on the military front, our goal should be victory over Hizbullah, a proxy military force for Iran. Secondly, on the hasbara (public relations) front, we have to fend off the attacks and vilification of Israel in order to gain time for the military objective. And thirdly, on the civilian front, the government must immediately declare a state of emergency. This is a war that, for the civilians, is worse than previous wars - longer and more costly in lives and property. These are the objectives that I will support. In war, you must achieve your objectives. It is painful, but it will be much more painful for the country - in lives lost, cities paralyzed and security imperiled - if we have to face future rounds because we did not win this one. The writer is the leader of the opposition in the Israeli Knesset and has previously served as the Prime Minister of Israel
 

BernieEOD

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The subject of the debate should be about what Isreal has done, not about what Isreal is doing. If you look at the order of battle, the IDF should have been able to squash Hizbollah like an irritating insect. From its inception, it was though that one day ground troops would become obsolete and that entire wars could be fought from the air. The Western world has become too reliant on wonder weapons. Even in this so called war on terror, we are acting like a bunch of cowardly civilians hiding behind and expect the government to protect us. America was always meant to be a nation of citizens who would be willing to modilize and meet the enemy, not a nation of civilians who cower behind government institutions and whose only contribution to a war is the role of a cheering chickenhawk.We should not be worried about our citizens being taken hostage, our attitude should be "We have a 2nd Amendment, good luck trying!"Instead, we want to disarm the citizens and make them cower behind the governemnt.The real irony here is that Hizbollah, who is doing their best to kill civilians has only accounted for 29. The IDF, who claims to be avaiding civilians has killed over 670. Once again, we are trying to make our wonder weapons do all of the work.