So When We Pass On, Do We Immediately Awake, or Sleep?

shturt678 · Jun 22, 2014

RANDOR said:
If I could just getttttttttttttttttttt this plank out of my eye............wait a minute....GOT IT!!!!! POP!
Look out...........now I can see clearly to judge.

Click to expand...

Seriously as rarely that serous, I told this Christian brother of mine, judging, that kept getting into my face repeatedly in not a nice way mostly against my Amill. stance, "If Jesus came back right this moment, you would recrucify Him again." Him and I became very close thus I judge now those that are really out to lunch will get it (the "passing on part") - so far it's been working, ie, judging the opposite of what I really think - weird?

Had my cataracts removed, still not helping?

Old poor judger Jack

RANDOR · Jun 22, 2014

Bible_Gazer said:
2 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God,
an house not made with hands,
eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan,
earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

You get a new body -
but this seem to conflict some of the natural burial resurrection believers.
Some bodies don't even exist any more to resurrect - so what's the purpose ?

DNA

lforrest · Jun 22, 2014

Do We Immediately Awake, or Sleep?

The body must sleep until the resurrection. I know some people have said the true followers of Christ will never "sleep" as Jesus would say. But that is foolishness.

Stories from believers with multiple personalities claim that there is a garden where Jesus can be found within them. I can only assume that part of the person in communion with the Spirit of God will depart when the body dies.

aspen · Jun 22, 2014

I don't think Jesus was really expecting that anyone, especially the Pharisees to get the plank out of their eye.......I think he was trying to tell them to stop being hypocrites

Arnie Manitoba · Jun 22, 2014

brakelite said:
So you also think that the spirit of man is a separate entity having a life of its own? And where is the evidence for that? And where else do we communicate from (it doesn't matter whether spiritually or naturally) if not from the mind?

I am going to say YES with an explanation , both from science and spirituality

I do believe at the moment of death our - "spirit" - "soul" - "personality" - continues to "exist" ... and "goes to be with the Lord" ... until the resurrection and our soul is united with a new everlasting physical body.

We can even use secular science to allow for that possibility.

Our bodies are meat and bones but it is electrical energy that runs everything .... motor neurons ... signals from our brains

I think it is possible that our memories and complete history is stored as electrical energy and continues after we put our dead meat and bones in the cemetary

We could take all the information in the world stored on a huge computer and send the info into outer space as an electrical radio wave. We could completely destroy the computer but the information continues to exist as electricity.

We could build a new computer , intercept the original electrical radio wave and recapture all the information

Using that example it should not be difficult for us to grasp the understanding that our "personality" continues after physical death.

It does not even violate the laws of physics

brakelite · Jun 23, 2014

Arnie Manitoba said:
I am going to say YES with an explanation , both from science and spirituality

I do believe at the moment of death our - "spirit" - "soul" - "personality" - continues to "exist" ... and "goes to be with the Lord" ... until the resurrection and our soul is united with a new everlasting physical body.

We can even use secular science to allow for that possibility.

Our bodies are meat and bones but it is electrical energy that runs everything .... motor neurons ... signals from our brains

I think it is possible that our memories and complete history is stored as electrical energy and continues after we put our dead meat and bones in the cemetary

We could take all the information in the world stored on a huge computer and send the info into outer space as an electrical radio wave. We could completely destroy the computer but the information continues to exist as electricity.

We could build a new computer , intercept the original electrical radio wave and recapture all the information

Using that example it should not be difficult for us to grasp the understanding that our "personality" continues after physical death.

It does not even violate the laws of physics

It may not violate the laws of physics,but it does violate the scriptures. To repeat what Retro put up...mud+breath(spirit)=living soul. Living soul-breath=mud. Old mud recreated +breath=glorified living soul . Simple truth.
There is so much inconsistency however in the following beliefs. One claims we are immortal spirits despite the Word saying the opposite. Another says we are immortal souls, yet a soul only comes into existence when mud and spirit meet. When the spirit departs, there can be no soul. One says we never really die taking the devils word literally, while denying God's word that says the opposite. Another says eternal life is a gift, but claim the wicked live forever also (when do they receive their 'gift'). Still another says we are all immortal while God says to the angel "guard the tree of life so no sinner eats thereof and lives forever". And there are as numerous variations of the above themes as there are minds to invent them. No wonder the modern church is called Babylon....confusion.

shturt678 · Jun 23, 2014

brakelite said:
It may not violate the laws of physics,but it does violate the scriptures. To repeat what Retro put up...mud+breath(spirit)=living soul. Living soul-breath=mud. Old mud recreated +breath=glorified living soul . Simple truth.
There is so much inconsistency however in the following beliefs. One claims we are immortal spirits despite the Word saying the opposite. Another says we are immortal souls, yet a soul only comes into existence when mud and spirit meet. When the spirit departs, there can be no soul. One says we never really die taking the devils word literally, while denying God's word that says the opposite. Another says eternal life is a gift, but claim the wicked live forever also (when do they receive their 'gift'). Still another says we are all immortal while God says to the angel "guard the tree of life so no sinner eats thereof and lives forever". And there are as numerous variations of the above themes as there are minds to invent them. No wonder the modern church is called Babylon....confusion.

Click to expand...

Thank you for caring again!

Sadly adding a little more necessary confusion: One's immortal "soul" animates the body (material part) giving it life. A redefined understading puts more separation between Biblical "soul" and Biblical "spirit" in the ancient Greek in the N.T. ruled by the context whereas the English has them meaning nearly the same thing.
Secondly the meaning of "soul" in the N.T. is used in different senses hence not to be understood in the same sense from passage to passage, again ruled by the context.
Thirdly the meaning of "soul" in the O.T. is used in a different sense than in the N.T., again ruled by the context.
Fourthly the meaning of animal "souls" is also used in a different sense.

Old simplifying Jack

Arnie Manitoba · Jun 23, 2014

brakelite said:
It may not violate the laws of physics,but it does violate the scriptures. To repeat what Retro put up...mud+breath(spirit)=living soul. Living soul-breath=mud. Old mud recreated +breath=glorified living soul . Simple truth.
There is so much inconsistency however in the following beliefs. One claims we are immortal spirits despite the Word saying the opposite. Another says we are immortal souls, yet a soul only comes into existence when mud and spirit meet. When the spirit departs, there can be no soul. One says we never really die taking the devils word literally, while denying God's word that says the opposite. Another says eternal life is a gift, but claim the wicked live forever also (when do they receive their 'gift'). Still another says we are all immortal while God says to the angel "guard the tree of life so no sinner eats thereof and lives forever". And there are as numerous variations of the above themes as there are minds to invent them. No wonder the modern church is called Babylon....confusion.

If there is nothing left of us after death , what would be the purpose of a resurrection and afterlife ? The whole bible message would be meaningless.

Bible_Gazer · Jun 23, 2014

DNA ??
Are we not going to like the Angels ? - neither male of female as we know it here.

Here a thought that ..
The Angel talking to John the Revelator he was one of the brethren on earth that
made it to heaven and giving John the Book and John fell down before the Angel feet to worship him.
So this person has his body now.

shturt678 · Jun 23, 2014

Bible_Gazer said:
DNA ??
Are we not going to like the Angels ? - neither male of female as we know it here.

Here a thought that ..
The Angel talking to John the Revelator he was one of the brethren on earth that
made it to heaven and giving John the Book and John fell down before the Angel feet to worship him.
So this person has his body now.

Click to expand...

Thank you for caring!

Only a head's up: Rev.1:1, any angel, now one, now another, would be "his (Christ's and God's) angel. No correction intended.

Old Jack

RANDOR · Jun 23, 2014

Don't know if we be alseep or awake..........................but I'm awake now in Christ. Tick Tock! Tick Tock!

Retrobyter · Jun 23, 2014

Shalom, Bible_Gazer.

Bible_Gazer said:
DNA ??
Are we not going to like the Angels ? - neither male of female as we know it here.

Here a thought that ..
The Angel talking to John the Revelator he was one of the brethren on earth that
made it to heaven and giving John the Book and John fell down before the Angel feet to worship him.
So this person has his body now.

Here's a heads-up from 1 Peter 1:8-12:

1 Peter 1:8-12
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KJV

What are "prophets" if not "messengers of God" to others? Both the Hebrew word "mal'akh" and the Greek word "aggelos" mean "messenger." Furthermore, both words are often translated as "angel," referring specifically to a SUPERNATURAL messenger of God. Indeed, the Greek word "aggelos" IS ACTUALLY TRANSLITERATED into the English word "angel," the "gg" (gamma-gamma) consonant blend being the "ng" sound. I would submit to you that these "angels" or "messengers" in verse twelve are the EXACT SAME "prophets" of verse ten!

Bible_Gazer · Jun 24, 2014

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Bible_Gazer.

Here's a heads-up from 1 Peter 1:8-12:

1 Peter 1:8-12
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KJV

What are "prophets" if not "messengers of God" to others? Both the Hebrew word "mal'akh" and the Greek word "aggelos" mean "messenger." Furthermore, both words are often translated as "angel," referring specifically to a SUPERNATURAL messenger of God. Indeed, the Greek word "aggelos" IS ACTUALLY TRANSLITERATED into the English word "angel," the "gg" (gamma-gamma) consonant blend being the "ng" sound. I would submit to you that these "angels" or "messengers" in verse twelve are the EXACT SAME "prophets" of verse ten!

I think verse 10 and 12 are different.
a messenger is not always an angel but an angel is a messenger.
a messenger is not always a prophet but a prophet is a messenger.
just like evil is not always sin, but sin is always evil.

The angel was a messenger talking to John, giving him the book of revelation.
I was saying this angel is one of the saints from earth who has a body now in heaven.
So he is awake not sleeping or dead.
The angel said he was a brethren -Rev.19:10 Rev.22:9 - could be Stephen ?
Stephen saw Jesus before they stoned him and I think Jesus was calling him home as a living soul.
Stephen wasn't going to be naked, but have a new body as Paul mention in 2Cor.5

shturt678 · Jun 24, 2014

Thank you folks for caring!

I agree in part with BG, and agreeing do disagree with Retrobyter.

IPet.1:10, "...prophets, they who prophesied...." noting the syntactical repetition "prophets - they who prophesied" emphasizes the character and the function of these men: men who were chosen my God as His mouthpiece.

IPet.1:12, "...angels desire to look." recalling Exod.25:20, 21, the cherubim on the mercy seat in the tabernacle; the seraphim in Isa.6:2-8; the actual angels in connection with the giving of the law, Acts 7:53; the actual angels in connection with the birth and in connection with the resurrection of Christ, and in many other instances; their ministering to the heirs of salvation; and then Eph.3:10, the manifold wisdom of God, hidden from the beginning of God, made known to the to actual angels by means of the N. T. Una Sancta.

Old Jack that appreciates you and agapes those ministering angels, "ministering spirits" in Heb.1:14.

Retrobyter · Jun 24, 2014

Shalom, Bible_Gazer.

Bible_Gazer said:
I think verse 10 and 12 are different.
a messenger is not always an angel but an angel is a messenger.
a messenger is not always a prophet but a prophet is a messenger.
just like evil is not always sin, but sin is always evil.

The angel was a messenger talking to John, giving him the book of revelation.
I was saying this angel is one of the saints from earth who has a body now in heaven.
So he is awake not sleeping or dead.
The angel said he was a brethren -Rev.19:10 Rev.22:9 - could be Stephen ?
Stephen saw Jesus before they stoned him and I think Jesus was calling him home as a living soul.
Stephen wasn't going to be naked, but have a new body as Paul mention in 2Cor.5

Sorry, but I KNOW that's not right! We are to look forward to the resurrection of THESE bodies! "The corruptible must put on incorruption!" "The mortal must put on immortality!" We don't have disconnected, foreign bodies awaiting us in some ethereal place called "Heaven." We are awaiting THESE bodies to be resurrected (or to be transformed) into the immortal, incorruptible bodies to live on the future renovation of this earth, the New Earth.

Arnie Manitoba · Jun 24, 2014

So When We Pass On, Do We Immediately Awake, or Sleep?
Started by shturt678, Jun 21 2014 06:53 PM

Back to the original title of this thread quoted above

According to Jesus when we die and are buried , we still exist , call it spirit or soul or whatever

Jesus himself makes it very clear

..................................................................................

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

shturt678 · Jun 25, 2014

Arnie Manitoba said:
Back to the original title of this thread quoted above

Click to expand...

According to Jesus when we die and are buried , we still exist , call it spirit or soul or whatever

Jesus himself makes it very clear

..................................................................................

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Thank you for your response!

Perfect!

Old Jack

Bible_Gazer · Jun 25, 2014

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Bible_Gazer.

Sorry, but I KNOW that's not right! We are to look forward to the resurrection of THESE bodies! "The corruptible must put on incorruption!" "The mortal must put on immortality!" We don't have disconnected, foreign bodies awaiting us in some ethereal place called "Heaven." We are awaiting THESE bodies to be resurrected (or to be transformed) into the immortal, incorruptible bodies to live on the future renovation of this earth, the New Earth.

So are the saints in heaven right now having a good time with Jesus without a body ?
or Are they asleep(dead) waiting - 1Thes.4:14-15

Arnie Manitoba said:
Back to the original title of this thread quoted above

According to Jesus when we die and are buried , we still exist , call it spirit or soul or whatever

Jesus himself makes it very clear

..................................................................................

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Did this story really happened before Jesus said this ?

Or was it a picture to show them they will not even listen to him when he is risen from the dead.

They would not even hear him now while he was alive

Arnie Manitoba · Jun 25, 2014

Bible_Gazer said:
Did this story really happened before Jesus said this ?

Or was it a picture to show them they will not even listen to him when he is risen from the dead.

They would not even hear him now while he was alive

.
Sounds to me like you do not believe what Jesus said about people not believing what Jesus said about the fact that if Moses and the Prophets came back from the dead people would still not believe what they said about the afterlife

shturt678 · Jun 25, 2014

Bible_Gazer said:
So are the saints in heaven right now having a good time with Jesus without a body ?
or Are they asleep(dead) waiting - 1Thes.4:14-15

Did this story really happened before Jesus said this ?

Or was it a picture to show them they will not even listen to him when he is risen from the dead.

They would not even hear him now while he was alive

Click to expand...

Thank you for caring!

These are "figures" used in the other world thus whether this happened in the past or are real men isn't significant. Now what is the underlying thought? Possibly the finality of judgment at one's passing? Maybe there's even different levels of hell?

Old Jack

Arnie Manitoba said:
.
Sounds to me like you do not believe what Jesus said about people not believing what Jesus said about the fact that if Moses and the Prophets came back from the dead people would still not believe what they said about the afterlife

Didn't see your response, ie, better than mine!

Old missing it Jack

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