So When We Pass On, Do We Immediately Awake, or Sleep?

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Bible_Gazer

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Arnie Manitoba said:
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Sounds to me like you do not believe what Jesus said about people not believing what Jesus said about the fact that if Moses and the Prophets came back from the dead people would still not believe what they said about the afterlife
Does it say anything about Moses and Prophets coming back from the dead or someone else.
or does it say They have Moses and the Prophets = The Laws concerning Christ to get saved.
and so they didn't listen and hell came to them in 70AD, because they refuse to hear from the man who was raised from the dead.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Bible_Gazer said:
Does it say anything about Moses and Prophets coming back from the dead or someone else.
or does it say They have Moses and the Prophets = The Laws concerning Christ to get saved.
and so they didn't listen and hell came to them in 70AD, because they refuse to hear from the man who was raised from the dead.
Not sure what any of this has to do with 70AD

Point blank question .... do you believe what Jesus said about Lazarus and the Rich man in the afterlife ?
 

shturt678

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Bible_Gazer said:
Does it say anything about Moses and Prophets coming back from the dead or someone else.
or does it say They have Moses and the Prophets = The Laws concerning Christ to get saved.
and so they didn't listen and hell came to them in 70AD, because they refuse to hear from the man who was raised from the dead.
Thank you for caring!

Lk.16:31, "..If they do not hear Moses and the prophets,...." Such a resurrection return and testimony would not accomplish anything in the case of men who constantly refuse to hear in the sense of take to heart the divine testimony of Moses and the prophets, they would not even presuade such unbelievers sort of thing.

Liked your "and so they didn't listen" part, however 70 A.D. about 40 years later?

Old curious Jack
 

n2thelight

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brakelite said:
So you also think that the spirit of man is a separate entity having a life of its own? And where is the evidence for that? And where else do we communicate from (it doesn't matter whether spiritually or naturally) if not from the mind?
Paul explains this very well

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?
We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.
Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."
 
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brakelite

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n2thelight said:
Paul explains this very well

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?
We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.
Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."
You read far too much into Pauls writing. You are saying far more than he does, thus you are presuming beyond what the scripture reveals. Yes, we have coming to us a spiritual body. Elsewhere we are told that our spiritual body will be the same as what Jesus was raised with. The question is when! It is not as you tried to add to the scripture of Eccl. a spiritual 'body' that returns instantly to God who gave it...He did not give us a spiritual body housed in a physical body. That is pure pagan Greek/Platonic teaching having no place in either Hebrew or Christian faith. It is our physical bodies that are raised incorruptable. It is our physical bodies that are raised to immortality. It is when Jesus returns at His second advent that our resurrection takes place when He shouts "awake", to all that sleep in the earth. We are not called down from heaven, we are called from the grave. Just like Lazarus, just like Jesus.
 

n2thelight

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brakelite said:
You read far too much into Pauls writing. You are saying far more than he does, thus you are presuming beyond what the scripture reveals. Yes, we have coming to us a spiritual body. Elsewhere we are told that our spiritual body will be the same as what Jesus was raised with. The question is when! It is not as you tried to add to the scripture of Eccl. a spiritual 'body' that returns instantly to God who gave it...He did not give us a spiritual body housed in a physical body. That is pure pagan Greek/Platonic teaching having no place in either Hebrew or Christian faith. It is our physical bodies that are raised incorruptable. It is our physical bodies that are raised to immortality. It is when Jesus returns at His second advent that our resurrection takes place when He shouts "awake", to all that sleep in the earth. We are not called down from heaven, we are called from the grave. Just like Lazarus, just like Jesus.
Okay let's keep it simple

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Aint nobody in no grave,that would be soul sleep...Christ tells us exactly what happens in the parable of the Richman and Lazarous

Just to go a little deeper,we were never meant to be in the flesh,as we were always spirit,had satan not rebelled we would have stayed spirit...

There is no such thing as soul sleep and we will never ever need this flesh body again,period.........
 
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brakelite

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What you are saying is that were always were spirit, and always will be . That is totally against everyhting the scripture teaches on man's mortality. Paul says only God is immortal. Immortality is given to us at the second coming. prior to this we never had it, and prior to our physical birth we never existed. God is Spirit. Therefore He is the ONLY immortal spirit. At least for the time being. And that includes angels.
 

n2thelight

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brakelite said:
What you are saying is that were always were spirit, and always will be . That is totally against everyhting the scripture teaches on man's mortality. Paul says only God is immortal. Immortality is given to us at the second coming. prior to this we never had it, and prior to our physical birth we never existed. God is Spirit. Therefore He is the ONLY immortal spirit. At least for the time being. And that includes angels.
Did'nt say we were immortal......As for us never exsisting before, birth,that's false,as all souls were created at the same time...



Job 38:7
King James Version (KJV)


7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Are you a son of God?
 
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brakelite

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n2thelight said:
Question,why did God hate Easu before he was even born?
What evidence do you have that God hated Esau before he was born?
 

shturt678

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Not that I'm anyone, you folks really kickstarted my morning. Thank you from an old man!

I never knew threads could be so uplifting especially when one needs the uplift. Following along taking notes.

Old Jack,

Thank you again!
 

n2thelight

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brakelite said:
What evidence do you have that God hated Esau before he was born?
Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:12 "It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the you

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, n2thelight.

n2thelight said:
Okay let's keep it simple

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Aint nobody in no grave,that would be soul sleep...Christ tells us exactly what happens in the parable of the Richman and Lazarous

Just to go a little deeper,we were never meant to be in the flesh,as we were always spirit,had satan not rebelled we would have stayed spirit...

There is no such thing as soul sleep and we will never ever need this flesh body again,period.........
Do let's! DON'T ASSUME that a "spiritual" body is a NON-PHYSICAL body! Many never make the connection, but this is the SAME PASSAGE that ends with...

1 Corinthians 15:44-57
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV


We DO need the body of flesh again, even if it is converted to an incorruptible, immortal physical body! Remember how Yeshua` appeared to His disciples:

Luke 24:33-49
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them,
These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them,
Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

KJV

So, it IS a physical body, even if it has been transformed. Thus, there were two different kinds of resurrection in the Scriptures: The first kind, performed by Eliyahu (Elijah) and Elishah and Yeshua` prior to HIS Resurrection, were just animating the bodies of those who had recently been deceased. The second kind, performed by God the Father, was the Resurrection to new life that Yeshua` ALONE so far has experienced. The rest of us will not experience such a resurrection until the Son of God, Yeshua` the Messiah, returns PHYSICALLY to this earth!
 

n2thelight

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Scripture is clear,this flesh shall return to the dust from where it came,nowhere does it say it shall be used again...All who have died return to God,in their spiritual bodies

The only reason we ever needed flesh to begin with,was for us to come through this earth age....
 

Bible_Gazer

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Not sure what any of this has to do with 70AD

Point blank question .... do you believe what Jesus said about Lazarus and the Rich man in the afterlife ?
I think rich man and poor man story is an allegory to the people he was talking to.
The one he was talking to was in rich in God. - Jews as a whole.
The poor man had nothing - Gentiles - but they became rich

Acts 13:45-48
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


So torment came and 70AD came and they been in torment thru history and even until this very day as a whole.
 

shturt678

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Thank you folks for caring!

Only a head's up. Allegory: presents a blending of realities and figures with a hidden spiritual connection.

Parable: presents a contrasting of figures, action with a cause and effect, ie, focusing on the "effect" containing also a hidden spiritual comparison.

Lk.16:19-31 "Parable of Dives" for the parable does not turn on the fact of being rich or poor, but on unbelief which is exhibited in heartless selfishness in this life and in open contradiction in the hereafter.

Old unselfish Jack
 
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brakelite

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n2thelight said:
Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:12 "It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the you

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Okay, very good. I had forgotten that text. So, why did God choose Jacob and reject Esau? I would suggest becuase God, who knows the end from the beginning, forsaw Esau's selfish attitude and his flippant disregard for his birthright and thus was able to say to Rebecca, "the older shall serve the younger". This choice of God's was not arbitrary, nor was it because Jacob earned anything, but simply because God sees the future He considered Jacob the better to fulfill His purposes re the eventual coming of Messiah. Ummmm, and this has to do with the state of the dead how?
 

n2thelight

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brakelite said:
Okay, very good. I had forgotten that text. So, why did God choose Jacob and reject Esau? I would suggest becuase God, who knows the end from the beginning, forsaw Esau's selfish attitude and his flippant disregard for his birthright and thus was able to say to Rebecca, "the older shall serve the younger". This choice of God's was not arbitrary, nor was it because Jacob earned anything, but simply because God sees the future He considered Jacob the better to fulfill His purposes re the eventual coming of Messiah. Ummmm, and this has to do with the state of the dead how?

He hated him for what happened in the first earth age,ie,before this age of flesh that we are in now....It has to do with the state of the dead ,in my point that we were with God before being born,and there we shall return at death,to believe otherwise is to believe in soul sleep.....Yes God does know everything,but that's not why He hated Easu.....Easu was there with Him,as were all of us....

Let's hear from Paul again concerning those who have died

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord."