So When We Pass On, Do We Immediately Awake, or Sleep?

.

Jesus also said to the criminal crucified beside him .... today you will be with me in paradise Luke 23:43

For the life of me I cannot understand how some Christians do not believe in an afterlife.

Neither Jesus nor the criminal went to paradise that day. It should read..".I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise."
As to n2thelight's belief that we pre-existed our physical birth ...I just walk away shaking head in disbelief.

brakelite said:

Neither Jesus nor the criminal went to paradise that day. It should read..".I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise."

Click to expand...

The Jehovah's False Witnesses switch the words around like that too

They do not believe in the afterlife either.

Martin W. said:

The Jehovah's False Witnesses switch the words around like that too

They do not believe in the afterlife either.

Click to expand...

Oh I believe very much in the afterlife. My hope, the Christian hope, is our resurrection. Cannot wait for the day when this mess we call our world is over.

I haven't switched any words around. I just moved the comma. The comma isn't inspired...it was added by the translaters according to their traditional beliefs. The original lanmguages of the ancient texts had no punctuation. So context needed to be used to ascertain the position of verses, chapters,commas, full stops, etc. They believed, as does most of Christianity, that we immediately go to heaven or hell at death. I do not agree with this. I believe they made a mistake. In accordance with my belief I moved the comma. Also, what other evidence do we have that Jesus went to paradise that day? None. Zilch. In fact, His own words inform us that He did not go to paradise until after the resurrection.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:1 ¶ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Nor is there any further evidence that the theif even died that day. He was still very much alive when he was brought down from the cross in respect of the Sabbath during which the ruling Jews forbad anyone to be hanging on a tree ....they broke his legs so that he couldn't run away. He would have been put up onto tyhe cross again after Sabbath to die, possibly in another day or so. Crucifixion was designed by the Romans to prolong death as long as possible, but as painfully as possible. It often took several days to die. And I have never heard of anyone dying of broken legs. That is why they were surprised that Jesus had died. Why did Jesus die and the others lived? Because Jesus did not allow anyone else to kill Him. He gave His own life. He hung His head and died voluntarily, not at the demands of Jewish or Roman murderers.

So I stand by the more contextual, and scriptural rendition of the passage and words of Jesus, Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise

Or as Youngs Literal Translation renders that quote, without the punctuation at all, ‘Verily I say to thee to-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.’ So you see it can go either way, thus context, and comparing scripture with scripture must be used to ascertain the correct understanding. Jesus said He didn't go to the Father until after the resurrection, and the Father is in paradise.

So what's it to be? Tradition, or sola scriptura?

shturt678 said:

Thank you folks for caring!

Let's take a another look at Lk.23:42, 43, v.42...when thou comest in connection with thy kingdom!...v.43....today in company with me shalt thou be in the Paradise!" My small itsy bitsy foot note from long ago [V.43 taken in conjunction with v.42 "today" meaning at the consummation, not a time concept - remove the capital "T" from "Today" to "today" and punctuartion (from my NA-27 & Zahn's text-critical survey sources)]. Come on Jack, what is your point?

"When thou comest into thy kingdom," ie, at thy death, is not what the malefactor either says or means. "When thou comest in thy kingdom," ie, in connection with it, means at the end of the world. In the mean time, who he was, ie, his soul, immediately went to heaven awaiting his body at the end fo the world. Wow, been awhile but think we nailed it?

Old Jack's simple opinion believing in afterlife

Click to expand...

Okay Jack, next thing I would seek to understand from you is this...the 'soul' you say that goes to heaven, is it a conscious entity capable of feelings, thought, communication, etc? or does it need the body (the ears, nose, mouth, eyes, and mind) in order to do these things?

Hi Jack, and I have respect for you also, and great admiration for your understanding and patience with those less so inclined. I am sorry if you thought I was 'attacking' your beliefs or something akin to tyhat, rather, my last question was merely to get a handle on what you think. Thanks for the reply, understand you better now. God bless.

These forums are so difficult to get emotions across, words can sometimes sound so cold and callous despite the intents and motives of the writer who maybe thinking quite the opposite. Would love to visdit Hawaii one day to see you personally and have a chat. Unfortunately financing such a journey is out of the question, and although there is nothing between us except ocean, there is just a little too much of it to swim.

shturt678 said:

I thought you thought I was attacking you - where's RANDOR when you need him?

Thank you my brother, ie, we care as a team.

Most Christians agape me at a distance including in our Church, ie, I'm the litmus test sadly, ie, if you can love Jack, you can love anyone - hate being that litmus test. Pray our Lord can keep changing my attitude so they can love me up close.

Old unlovable Jack, ie, done with all the pity parties.

Click to expand...

Da Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...I'm here Jack.......at your beckoned call.....what daya need.......who we goin after?

Putting my armor on.................and sharpening my sword........ok.......I'm ready....................LETS ROLL!

brakelite said:

Neither Jesus nor the criminal went to paradise that day. It should read..".I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise."
As to n2thelight's belief that we pre-existed our physical birth ...I just walk away shaking head in disbelief.

Click to expand...

Not my belief,it is written...How else could God know us before we were born,and please don't give me that,because He know's everything.....So you can stop shaking your head...

Quick study below


Three World Ages Bible Study
Did you know that there was an earth age before this one? That the earth is really millions of years old? There was a time that we all lived on this earth in our spiritual bodies and everyone was happy. To find out what brought that to an end, read our study on the Rebellion of Satan. These two studies go hand in hand to explain why we are here and what brought the first earth age to an end. I'm not talking about reincarnation as we go though this earth age one time only. In this study we are going to take a look at the first earth age and how God destroyed it.

Genesis 1:1-2
V1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The word 'beginning' is Strong's number 7225 and means re'shiyth (ray-sheeth'); from the same as 7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit).

The word 'created' is Strong's 1254 and means bara' (baw-raw'); a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
God does not give us a year when He did this, just that He did it "In the beginning". The earth is not 7000 years old as some Christians claim but many millions of years old. It is only the earth age we live in now, the second, that is about 7000 years old. The dinosaur bones and fossils that are found date back more than 7000 years and are from the first earth age.
V2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The word 'was' is Strong's number 1961 and means hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary).
The words 'without form' is Strong's 8414 and means tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain.
The word 'void' is Strong's 922 and means bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin.

God did not create the earth without form and void but it became that way. God destroyed the first earth age because of the Rebellion of Satan.

Isaiah 45:18
V18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The word 'vain' is the same word that 'without form' is in Genesis 1:2 Strong's 8414. God created the earth to be inhabited but Satan's rebellion caused God to destroy that earth age. That was the first earth age and we now are living in the second earth age. The first earth age as well as the third earth age are spiritual ages meaning we just have our spiritual bodies. It is only in this second earth age that we have flesh and spiritual bodies. Just so you know, I'm not talking about reincarnation. We live in this second earth age one time and one time only. Some people may claim to have lived on earth hundreds or even thousands of years ago but they are possessed by evil sprits. That was going on a lot when Christ was on the earth and I feel it will be happening more and more until Christ returns again.

Now lets go to II Peter and read how God destroyed the first earth age.

II Peter 3:1-8
V1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
V2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Peter wants to remind us of the things that where spoken about by others in the Bible.
V3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
V4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
The word "scoffers" is Strong's 1703 and means empaiktes (emp-aheek-tace'); from 1702; a derider, i.e. (by implication) a false teacher.

The word "lusts" is Strong's 1939 and means epithumia (ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah); from 1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden).

There are many false teachers walking after their own lusts today. They teach the lusts of their own mind and not the true word of God. They teach such lies like Christ will rapture them away before the great tribulation or that the mark of the beast is a chip or tattoo. We also have people that say Christ will never return at all. Then there are groups of people that set a date for Christ to return and when it don't happen they get all bummed out and kill themselves. That just adds fuel for the people that say He is never coming back anyway. Be smart and do what Christ said. Watch and wait. Don't set dates because the only one that knows the date is God. Just get yourself ready for that day by reading God's word so you will not be caught off guard and deceived by Satan.

V5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
V6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
The word "perished" is Strong's 622 and means apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.
Some people desire to be ignorant to the fact that the earth is more than seven thousand years old when there is scientific proof which God's word aligns with. The dinosaur bones that are found toady are from the first earth age when dinosaurs walked the earth. Satan likes to play a lot of tricks but this is not one of them. Dinosaurs are talked about in God's word by God Himself in the book of Job. Read Job 40:15-24 and all of chapter 41 We were on the earth in our spiritual bodies in the first earth age with the dinosaurs. Because of the rebellion of Satan God destroyed fully that earth age with a flood. This is not talking about Noah's flood which happened in this earth age because it was not destroyed fully.

I Peter 3:20
V20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
V7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
This is talking about the earth age we live in now and looking forward to the Lord's day.
V8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

God does not count time like we do. It takes a thousand of our years to make one day for God. In the story of creation, God took six days to do it and then rested on the seventh. So, six days for God would be six thousand years for us. The seventh day would be another thousand years to make seven thousand years total. The earth age we live in now is almost seven thousand years old. I'm I saying Christ will return soon? No. I'm not setting a date and you shouldn't either. This is just some food for thought that we all should be getting ready for the day that Christ does return.

Lets go to one more place where it talks about the flood of the first earth age.

Psalms 104:5-9
V5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
As we read in Isaiah 45:18 God created this earth to be inhabited. We all walked this earth in the first earth age when we were in our spiritual bodies. We walk on it now in our flesh bodies and those that go to heaven will be on this earth in their spiritual bodies once again. This earth will never go away and heaven will be on this earth after the great white throne judgment of God.
V6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
V7 At Thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of Thy thunder they hasted away.
The word "hasted" is Strong's 2648 and means chaphaz (khaw-faz'); a primitive root; properly, to start up suddenly, i.e. (by implication) to hasten away, to fear.
We know that this is talking about the flood of the first earth age and not Noah's because in Noah's flood the waters did not hast away. In Genesis chapter 8 we read it took the water in Noah's flood months to dry up. In the first flood, God wanted the earth dry and it was dry, instantly.

V8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which Thou hast founded for them.
V9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
God promised Noah and He is telling us again that He will never flood the earth again like He did in the past.
Now lets document from God's word that we lived in the first earth age. Lets go to the book of Job. Job's whole life fell apart as he was being tested by Satan and spent most of the book talking to his three friends. They all thought that they had the answers to why these things happened to Job. We are going to pick up the story with God's first address to Job.

Job 38:1-7
V1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
V2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
V3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me.
God is asking Job why he listens to his friends when they have no idea what they are talking about. God is saying to Job, If you know so much, I'm going to ask you some questions and lets see you answer them. All of mankind put together knows very little compared to the wisdom of God.
V4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
V5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
V6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
God is asking Job where he was when He created the earth. This is something that happened many millions of years ago. God is taking us back to creation and the first earth age.
V7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Not many people shouting for joy now a days. This is looking back in time when we all where happy in heaven and everything was going great. This happened before the rebellion of Satan.

Shalom, n2thelight.

n2thelight said:

Not my belief,it is written...How else could God know us before we were born,and please don't give me that,because He know's everything.....So you can stop shaking your head...

Quick study below

Three World Ages Bible Study
Did you know that there was an earth age before this one? That the earth is really millions of years old? There was a time that we all lived on this earth in our spiritual bodies and everyone was happy. To find out what brought that to an end, read our study on the Rebellion of Satan. These two studies go hand in hand to explain why we are here and what brought the first earth age to an end. I'm not talking about reincarnation as we go though this earth age one time only. In this study we are going to take a look at the first earth age and how God destroyed it.

Genesis 1:1-2
V1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The word 'beginning' is Strong's number 7225 and means re'shiyth (ray-sheeth'); from the same as 7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit).

The word 'created' is Strong's 1254 and means bara' (baw-raw'); a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
God does not give us a year when He did this, just that He did it "In the beginning". The earth is not 7000 years old as some Christians claim but many millions of years old. It is only the earth age we live in now, the second, that is about 7000 years old. The dinosaur bones and fossils that are found date back more than 7000 years and are from the first earth age.
V2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The word 'was' is Strong's number 1961 and means hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary).
The words 'without form' is Strong's 8414 and means tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain.
The word 'void' is Strong's 922 and means bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin.

God did not create the earth without form and void but it became that way. God destroyed the first earth age because of the Rebellion of Satan.

Isaiah 45:18
V18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The word 'vain' is the same word that 'without form' is in Genesis 1:2 Strong's 8414. God created the earth to be inhabited but Satan's rebellion caused God to destroy that earth age. That was the first earth age and we now are living in the second earth age. The first earth age as well as the third earth age are spiritual ages meaning we just have our spiritual bodies. It is only in this second earth age that we have flesh and spiritual bodies. Just so you know, I'm not talking about reincarnation. We live in this second earth age one time and one time only. Some people may claim to have lived on earth hundreds or even thousands of years ago but they are possessed by evil sprits. That was going on a lot when Christ was on the earth and I feel it will be happening more and more until Christ returns again.

Now lets go to II Peter and read how God destroyed the first earth age.

II Peter 3:1-8
V1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
V2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Peter wants to remind us of the things that where spoken about by others in the Bible.
V3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
V4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
The word "scoffers" is Strong's 1703 and means empaiktes (emp-aheek-tace'); from 1702; a derider, i.e. (by implication) a false teacher.

The word "lusts" is Strong's 1939 and means epithumia (ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah); from 1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden).

There are many false teachers walking after their own lusts today. They teach the lusts of their own mind and not the true word of God. They teach such lies like Christ will rapture them away before the great tribulation or that the mark of the beast is a chip or tattoo. We also have people that say Christ will never return at all. Then there are groups of people that set a date for Christ to return and when it don't happen they get all bummed out and kill themselves. That just adds fuel for the people that say He is never coming back anyway. Be smart and do what Christ said. Watch and wait. Don't set dates because the only one that knows the date is God. Just get yourself ready for that day by reading God's word so you will not be caught off guard and deceived by Satan.

V5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
V6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
The word "perished" is Strong's 622 and means apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.
Some people desire to be ignorant to the fact that the earth is more than seven thousand years old when there is scientific proof which God's word aligns with. The dinosaur bones that are found toady are from the first earth age when dinosaurs walked the earth. Satan likes to play a lot of tricks but this is not one of them. Dinosaurs are talked about in God's word by God Himself in the book of Job. Read Job 40:15-24 and all of chapter 41 We were on the earth in our spiritual bodies in the first earth age with the dinosaurs. Because of the rebellion of Satan God destroyed fully that earth age with a flood. This is not talking about Noah's flood which happened in this earth age because it was not destroyed fully.

I Peter 3:20
V20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
V7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
This is talking about the earth age we live in now and looking forward to the Lord's day.
V8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

God does not count time like we do. It takes a thousand of our years to make one day for God. In the story of creation, God took six days to do it and then rested on the seventh. So, six days for God would be six thousand years for us. The seventh day would be another thousand years to make seven thousand years total. The earth age we live in now is almost seven thousand years old. I'm I saying Christ will return soon? No. I'm not setting a date and you shouldn't either. This is just some food for thought that we all should be getting ready for the day that Christ does return.

Lets go to one more place where it talks about the flood of the first earth age.

Psalms 104:5-9
V5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
As we read in Isaiah 45:18 God created this earth to be inhabited. We all walked this earth in the first earth age when we were in our spiritual bodies. We walk on it now in our flesh bodies and those that go to heaven will be on this earth in their spiritual bodies once again. This earth will never go away and heaven will be on this earth after the great white throne judgment of God.
V6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
V7 At Thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of Thy thunder they hasted away.
The word "hasted" is Strong's 2648 and means chaphaz (khaw-faz'); a primitive root; properly, to start up suddenly, i.e. (by implication) to hasten away, to fear.
We know that this is talking about the flood of the first earth age and not Noah's because in Noah's flood the waters did not hast away. In Genesis chapter 8 we read it took the water in Noah's flood months to dry up. In the first flood, God wanted the earth dry and it was dry, instantly.

V8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which Thou hast founded for them.
V9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.
God promised Noah and He is telling us again that He will never flood the earth again like He did in the past.
Now lets document from God's word that we lived in the first earth age. Lets go to the book of Job. Job's whole life fell apart as he was being tested by Satan and spent most of the book talking to his three friends. They all thought that they had the answers to why these things happened to Job. We are going to pick up the story with God's first address to Job.

Job 38:1-7
V1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
V2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
V3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me.
God is asking Job why he listens to his friends when they have no idea what they are talking about. God is saying to Job, If you know so much, I'm going to ask you some questions and lets see you answer them. All of mankind put together knows very little compared to the wisdom of God.
V4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
V5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
V6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
God is asking Job where he was when He created the earth. This is something that happened many millions of years ago. God is taking us back to creation and the first earth age.
V7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Not many people shouting for joy now a days. This is looking back in time when we all where happy in heaven and everything was going great. This happened before the rebellion of Satan.

Click to expand...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're making the mistake of believing the evolutionists in leu of the biblical accounts. There is NO gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. That is an old, old, OLD fallacy. The truth is that Genesis 1:1 is a summation of what is to follow. The word for "the heaven" (or "the heavens," depending on your version) is the Hebrew word "hashaamayim." It simply means "the skies," but it is also the SAME HEBREW WORD used in verse 8:

Genesis 1:8
8 And God called the firmament Heaven (Shaamayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.
KJV

The word for "the earth" is the Hebrew word "haa'aarets." It simply means "the land," but it is also the SAME HEBREW WORD used in verse 10:

Genesis 1:10
10 And God called the dry land Earth (Erets); and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV

Thus, verse 1 is a summary of verses 8 and 10 specifically.

Now, you ARE right about there being three "ages" as described in 2 Peter 3:3-13; however, they are much simpler than you describe:

The first heavens and earth are the antediluvian earth and its atmosphere, that is, the earth and skies before the Flood:

2 Peter 3:3-6
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

This constitutes the earth from the time of Adam to Noach.

The second heavens and earth are the present earth and its atmosphere, that is, the earth and skies from the Flood until the Fire:

2 Peter 3:7-12
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

The third heavens and earth are the future earth and its atmosphere, that is, the earth and skies that are after the Fire:

2 Peter 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

These earth and skies are the same as those prophesied in Revelation 21:1-2:

Revelation 21:1-2
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

So, don't go looking for the extravagant; stick to the obvious.

Shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:

Thank you folks for caring!

Only a heads' up again regarding Gen.1:1, etc. Regarding this is a summary statement akin to a title, after the Hebrew manner of narrative which likes to present a summary account like a newspaper heading, giving the gist of the entire even? No!

The Hebrew does co-ordinate clauses (being equal) -Yes! - where we in English perfer subordination. Longer sentences of involved structure are found in Gen.5:1 and Numb.5:12-15, and in many other instances.

Gen.1:1, the term shamayim signified the "upper regions," and is a plural form, a plural of intensity pointing to the heavenly spheres or regions which rise one above the other.

Old Jack

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Nonsense. You've thrown into the mix a little of the theology-philosophy of the Dark Ages! Forget the "heavenly spheres or regions" garbage. Shaamayim simply refers to the "skies" above one's head. PERIOD.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, n2thelight.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're making the mistake of believing the evolutionists in leu of the biblical accounts. There is NO gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. That is an old, old, OLD fallacy. The truth is that Genesis 1:1 is a summation of what is to follow. The word for "the heaven" (or "the heavens," depending on your version) is the Hebrew word "hashaamayim." It simply means "the skies," but it is also the SAME HEBREW WORD used in verse 8:

Genesis 1:8
8 And God called the firmament Heaven (Shaamayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.
KJV

The word for "the earth" is the Hebrew word "haa'aarets." It simply means "the land," but it is also the SAME HEBREW WORD used in verse 10:

Genesis 1:10
10 And God called the dry land Earth (Erets); and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
KJV

Thus, verse 1 is a summary of verses 8 and 10 specifically.

Now, you ARE right about there being three "ages" as described in 2 Peter 3:3-13; however, they are much simpler than you describe:

The first heavens and earth are the antediluvian earth and its atmosphere, that is, the earth and skies before the Flood:

2 Peter 3:3-6
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

This constitutes the earth from the time of Adam to Noach.

The second heavens and earth are the present earth and its atmosphere, that is, the earth and skies from the Flood until the Fire:

2 Peter 3:7-12
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

The third heavens and earth are the future earth and its atmosphere, that is, the earth and skies that are after the Fire:

2 Peter 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

These earth and skies are the same as those prophesied in Revelation 21:1-2:

Revelation 21:1-2
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

So, don't go looking for the extravagant; stick to the obvious.

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My bubble is well intact...God destroyed the first earth completly,and Im not talking about the flood of Noah,

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.
In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin".
"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.
If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what Esau did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age that so angered God; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau, when his soul entered into this earth age. See also Romans 9:13.

This verse, then, does verify the fact that our earth is older than 6,000 years old. To be more exact, it's probably many millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place we can live on in the flesh and survive. We do not worship God's creation; we are to worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on the earth from the first earth age.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."
This is God speaking as Isaiah is writing it down, and He is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void". God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1 told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. The "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan of verse one, but came after the fall of Satan when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two.
We find more documentation concerning the first earth age in II Peter 3. In fact we can read of all three earth ages, as Peter becomes a witness to the fact.

II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

The earth came about by "the word of God", God's speech. Some ministers preach that this was Noah's flood, well let's see.

II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Perished means total destruction. "The world [age] that then was" ended in total ruin through another flood that was prior to Noah's day. There were no survivors of that flood; no animals, no man, no insects, nor vegetation survived in any form. Everything perished! We know in Noah's flood that two of all life forms were saved.

When you drive out on the highway today, and look at the road cutaways, you can see the layers that the ages and time have formed over the eons of years. You say this earth is 6000 years? Even a child should know better than that.

II Peter 3:7; "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are dept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is the second heaven and earth age which we are living in now. This earth age will not be destroyed until God's time of judgment on the ungodly men of this earth age comes to a close. that time of perdition [destruction] is after the millennium, and after the judgment. Then will come the consuming fire. Hebrews 12:19 tells us that our God is that consuming fire.

Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here we get back to the same word that we saw earlier in Genesis 1:2; The Hebrew word "Tohu" for "void". In other words, God is saying, "I destroyed the first heaven and earth age." There simply was no life form existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age in any form.

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is why the magnetic north is 90 miles off true north? God shook the earth and everything moved from its foundations at the time the destruction "tohu" took place.

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

Jeremiah 4:26; "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

In this flood there wasn't a tree or a blade of grass left with life in it. However, what about these "cities" that once existed? Yes there were cities at that time, and God's anger and fury against Satan, and the third of God's children that followed Satan, caused God to destroy that entire earth age, and all that was part of it.
That is what God meant in Hebrews 11:7 when He said, "I shook her once and know I'll shake her again." The only thing that will be left standing then, is that which is unshakeable, and it will only be those who have repented, and have Jesus Christ in their heart. They are those souls that were sealed in their minds, and did not bow to the Antichrist, his system, or take his name, nor his number.

Jeremiah 4:27; "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

God allowed the waters of the first earth age to recede, and from it came a condition whereby we can live in this second earth age. Each soul, or God's child, will pass through this flesh earth age once, and we have the choice to chose either light or darkness; Jesus Christ or Satan. When God created each soul and gave it free will, He cannot force that soul to love Him. You cannot buy love, or it will be a false love. God is looking for your tender love; from within your free soul. It is your choice.

So we have documented from the Bible that there was an earth age prior to this earth age we now live in. God created that first earth age in good standing to be inhabited, as it was written in Isaiah 45:18; then after this it became "without form and void" [in the Hebrew, "Tohu va bohu"].
Why? Because Satan brought sin into the world of that first earth age. and that sin was so great that one third of all God's children followed Satan, and that sin brought God's anger upon the whole world. It was then that Satan was sentenced to the death of his soul. This is why Satan is called the "son of perdition" in II Thessalonians 2:3, and John 17:12. Satan refused to repent, as God allowed him the time to get right with Him.

Verse three starts after the first earth age, after the overthrow by Satan [The Chabal], and after the total destruction of the first earth age and all life forms on it

Shalom, n2thelight.

n2thelight said:

My bubble is well intact...God destroyed the first earth completly,and Im not talking about the flood of Noah,

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.
In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin".
"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.
If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what Esau did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age that so angered God; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau, when his soul entered into this earth age. See also Romans 9:13.

This verse, then, does verify the fact that our earth is older than 6,000 years old. To be more exact, it's probably many millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place we can live on in the flesh and survive. We do not worship God's creation; we are to worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on the earth from the first earth age.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."
This is God speaking as Isaiah is writing it down, and He is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void". God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1 told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. The "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan of verse one, but came after the fall of Satan when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two.
We find more documentation concerning the first earth age in II Peter 3. In fact we can read of all three earth ages, as Peter becomes a witness to the fact.

II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

The earth came about by "the word of God", God's speech. Some ministers preach that this was Noah's flood, well let's see.

II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Perished means total destruction. "The world [age] that then was" ended in total ruin through another flood that was prior to Noah's day. There were no survivors of that flood; no animals, no man, no insects, nor vegetation survived in any form. Everything perished! We know in Noah's flood that two of all life forms were saved.

When you drive out on the highway today, and look at the road cutaways, you can see the layers that the ages and time have formed over the eons of years. You say this earth is 6000 years? Even a child should know better than that.

II Peter 3:7; "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are dept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is the second heaven and earth age which we are living in now. This earth age will not be destroyed until God's time of judgment on the ungodly men of this earth age comes to a close. that time of perdition [destruction] is after the millennium, and after the judgment. Then will come the consuming fire. Hebrews 12:19 tells us that our God is that consuming fire.

Jeremiah 4:22; "For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and, lo it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Here we get back to the same word that we saw earlier in Genesis 1:2; The Hebrew word "Tohu" for "void". In other words, God is saying, "I destroyed the first heaven and earth age." There simply was no life form existing on this earth at the close of the first earth age in any form.

Jeremiah 4:24; "I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is why the magnetic north is 90 miles off true north? God shook the earth and everything moved from its foundations at the time the destruction "tohu" took place.

Jeremiah 4:25; "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Did you get that? No man, no animals, and not even the birds were left alive. The earth was covered with water, and life could not exist. There was no boat floating around on the surface, for the span of time could have been for thousands of years, or a much greater time.

Jeremiah 4:26; "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

In this flood there wasn't a tree or a blade of grass left with life in it. However, what about these "cities" that once existed? Yes there were cities at that time, and God's anger and fury against Satan, and the third of God's children that followed Satan, caused God to destroy that entire earth age, and all that was part of it.
That is what God meant in Hebrews 11:7 when He said, "I shook her once and know I'll shake her again." The only thing that will be left standing then, is that which is unshakeable, and it will only be those who have repented, and have Jesus Christ in their heart. They are those souls that were sealed in their minds, and did not bow to the Antichrist, his system, or take his name, nor his number.

Jeremiah 4:27; "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

God allowed the waters of the first earth age to recede, and from it came a condition whereby we can live in this second earth age. Each soul, or God's child, will pass through this flesh earth age once, and we have the choice to chose either light or darkness; Jesus Christ or Satan. When God created each soul and gave it free will, He cannot force that soul to love Him. You cannot buy love, or it will be a false love. God is looking for your tender love; from within your free soul. It is your choice.

So we have documented from the Bible that there was an earth age prior to this earth age we now live in. God created that first earth age in good standing to be inhabited, as it was written in Isaiah 45:18; then after this it became "without form and void" [in the Hebrew, "Tohu va bohu"].
Why? Because Satan brought sin into the world of that first earth age. and that sin was so great that one third of all God's children followed Satan, and that sin brought God's anger upon the whole world. It was then that Satan was sentenced to the death of his soul. This is why Satan is called the "son of perdition" in II Thessalonians 2:3, and John 17:12. Satan refused to repent, as God allowed him the time to get right with Him.

Verse three starts after the first earth age, after the overthrow by Satan [The Chabal], and after the total destruction of the first earth age and all life forms on it

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You don't know what you're talking about. Here's the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1-2 (transliterated) with a word-for-word translation:

Bree'shiyt 1:1-2
1 Bree’shiyt baaraa’ Elohiym eet hashaamayim v’eet haa’aarets:
2 Vhaa’aarets haaytaah tohuw vaaVohuw vchoshekh `al pneey t-howm vruwach Elohiym mrachefet `al pneey hamaayim:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

1 Bree’shiyt = 1 In-beginning
baaraa’ = created
Elohiym = God
eet = (following is the direct object)
hashaamayim = the-skies
v’eet = and-(following is the direct object)
haa’aarets: = the-earth:
2 Vhaa’aarets = 2 And-the-earth
haaytaah = existed
tohuw = a-desert
vaaVohuw = and-empty
vchoshekh = and-darkness
`al = upon/against
pneey = its-(sur)face
t-howm = of-abyss
vruwach = and-wind
Elohiym = of-God
mrachefet = fluttered
`al = upon/against
pneey = its-(sur)face
hamaayim: = of-the-waters:

When God created, He created perfectly, and that matter that He created was perfect within its matrix, but it could not go beyond what it was made to be. When He created the elements, such as oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, silicon, nitrogen, etc., they were perfect as elements but they had little form! Silicon and oxygen could combine to form silicas, hydrogen and oxygen could combine to form water, hydrogen and carbon could combine to form methane, but they HAD NO LIFE!

It required God to step in and take the matter to a higher level! So, for six days, He created first the environments for the various inhabitants, and then He created the inhabitants for those systems!

Day 1: Light
Day 2: Skies & Seas
Day 3: Earth & Plants
Day 4: Luminaries
Day 5: Birds & Fish
Day 6: Land Animals & Mankind

There was NO SUCH THING as a thing before He created things! Get a grip!

Secondly, Jeremiah 4 is NOT talking about the Creation or a time before Creation! Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah), the "Weeping Prophet," was talking about the INVASION OF ISRA'EL by the armies from Nebuchadnezzar!!!

Jeremiah 4:1-5:1
4:1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai,
“yes, return to me; and if you will banish
your abominations from my presence
without wandering astray again;
2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’
in truth, justice and righteousness;
then the nations will bless themselves by him,
and in him will they glory.”
3 For here is what Adonai says
to the people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim:

“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed,
and do not sow among thorns.”
4 “People of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim,
circumcise yourselves for Adonai,
remove the foreskins of your heart!
Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire,
burning so hot that no one can quench it,
because of how evil your actions are.
5 “Announce in Y’hudah, proclaim in Yerushalayim;
say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’
Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble!
Let us go to the fortified cities!’
6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon,
head for cover without delay.
For I will bring disaster from the north,
yes, dire destruction.
7 A lion has risen from his lair,
a destroyer of nations has set out,
left his own place to ruin your land,
to demolish and depopulate your cities.”
8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth,
lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger
has not turned away from us.
9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“the king’s heart will fail him,
likewise the princes’;
the cohanim will be appalled
and the prophets stupefied.”
10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”
11 “At that time it will be said
of this people and of Yerushalayim:
‘A scorching wind from the desert heights
is sweeping down on my people.’
It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;
12 this wind of mine is too strong for that.
Now I will pass sentence on them.”
13 Here he comes, like the clouds,
his chariots like the whirlwind,
his horses faster than eagles!
Woe to us, we are doomed!
14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim,
so that you can be saved.
How long will you harbor within yourselves
your evil thoughts?
15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim:
16 “Report it to the nations,
proclaim about Yerushalayim:
‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country,
watching and shouting their war cry
against the cities of Y’hudah.’
17 Like guards in a field they surround her,
because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.
18 “Your own ways and your actions
have brought these things on yourselves.
This is your wickedness, so bitter!
It has reached your very heart.”
19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain!
My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! —
because I have heard the shofar sound;
it’s the call to war.
20 The news is disaster after disaster!
All the land is ruined!
My tents are suddenly destroyed,
my tent curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see that signal
and hear the shofar sound?
22 “It is because my people are foolish —
they do not know me; they are stupid children,
without understanding, wise when doing evil;
but they don’t know how to do good.”
23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void —
and at the sky — it had no light.
24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook —
all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I looked, and there was no human being;
all the birds in the air had fled.
26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert,
all the land’s cities were razed to the ground
at the presence of Adonai,
before his burning anger.
27 For here is what Adonai says:
“The whole land will be desolate
(although I will not destroy it completely).
28 Because of this, the land will mourn
and the sky above be black;
for I have spoken, I have decided,
I will not change my mind, I will not turn back.”
29 At the noise of the horsemen and archers,
the entire city flees —
some plunge into thickets; others climb rocks;
all cities are deserted; no one lives there.
30 And you, who are doomed to be plundered,
what do you mean by putting on crimson,
decking yourselves with jewels and gold,
enlarging your eyes with eye make-up?
You beautify yourself in vain —
your lovers despise you, they seek your life!
31 For I have heard a sound like a woman in labor,
in anguish giving birth to her first child.
It is the sound of the daughter of Tziyon
gasping for breath as she spreads her hands:
“Woe to me! Everything in me
is so weary before the killers.”
5:1 “Roam the streets of Yerushalayim
look around, observe and ask in its open spaces:
if you can find anyone (if there is anyone!)
who acts with justice and seeks the truth,
I will pardon her.
CJB

Again, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Creation! It's a blind eye that could look at this passage and see anything other than the destruction of Isra'el, Y'hudah (Judah), and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)!

How can anyone argue against our souls continuing after death ?

The bible clearly says the souls can be seen , and they can talk ....

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Revelation 6:9-10

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And if we think it through , those souls can also think , perceive time , ask questions , and remember their past


“How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Revelation 6:9-10