John Chapter 6 - literally

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Peacebewithyou

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It clearly sounds as if Jesus is speaking of His literal flesh & blood: 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. The Greek word used for "feeds" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.
 

goldy

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It clearly sounds as if Jesus is speaking of His literal flesh & blood: 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. The Greek word used for "feeds" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.
Seems awful clear to me as well. In the words of Scott Hahn: "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior everytime I go to Mass. I accept Him on my tongue, down my throat, and into my belly." The Eucharist. What a wonderful, and biblical, gift from Christ.
 

Jordan

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It clearly sounds as if Jesus is speaking of His literal flesh & blood: 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. The Greek word used for "feeds" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.
Spiritually speaking. Do you see Yahshua at all here literally? No! He is saying that without the Truth and the love of God...we are nothing, we won't have life. When we eat His words and love God above all, we grow in the faith in Christ.Jag
 

goldy

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Spiritually speaking. Do you see Yahshua at all here literally? No! He is saying that without the Truth and the love of God...we are nothing, we won't have life. When we eat His words and love God above all, we grow in the faith in Christ.Jag
Ummmmmmm, I see Jesus here literally all over the place. Eating His words? How do you see that "flesh" and "words" are the same thing?
 

goldy

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And still more to solidify the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist:1 Cor.10:16, 1 Cor.11:23-29 (Receiving unworthily), Ex.12:8,46Jn.1:29 (Jesus called the "Lamb of God")1 Cor.2:14-3:4 (Explains what the flesh means in John 6:63)There are others, but I will keep it at this for now.St. Ignatius speaking in 110 A.D.: "Heretics abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ" -Letter to Smyrnaeans 6,2
 

Peacebewithyou

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Spiritually speaking. Do you see Yahshua at all here literally? No! He is saying that without the Truth and the love of God...we are nothing, we won't have life. When we eat His words and love God above all, we grow in the faith in Christ.Jag
Yes, I see Jesus literally. Many of his disciples walked away - not because they couldn't accept his words, they had accepted them up until that point - but because they couldn't accept they were to LITERALLY eat His flesh & drink His blood. 60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? Jesus said four times in John Chapter 6: eat my flesh & drink my blood. The word EAT in Greek is literally means to "chew." When they walked away because they couldn't accept that, He never called after them saying, "Hey.. I meant "symbolically." And then we have the accounts of the Early Church - not sure I'm allowed to mention that but early Christians believed they were receiving Jesus literally.It wasn't until hundreds & hundreds of years later that Christians departed from this literal view. Whom do we trust? Jesus' own words and the beliefs of the Christians throughtout history, or some relatively new-fangled view that He was speaking symbolically.There are many "new" ideas held by Christians which we should reject - the Rapture is one that comes to mind. It was NOT a belief shared by Chrisitans thoughout history. Jesus speaking literally in John 6 is another. Forget what you've always believed - just read John Chapter 6 and listen to the words of Christ himself.
 

Jordan

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Spiritually speaking. Do you see Yahshua at all here literally? No! He is saying that without the Truth and the love of God...we are nothing, we won't have life. When we eat His words and love God above all, we grow in the faith in Christ.Jag
Yes, I see Jesus literally.Many of his disciples walked away - not because they couldn't accept his words, they had accepted them up until that point - but because they couldn't accept they were to LITERALLY eat His flesh & drink His blood.60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?Jesus said four times in John Chapter 6: eat my flesh & drink my blood. The word EAT in Greek is literally means to "chew."When they walked away because they couldn't accept that, He never called after them saying, "Hey.. I meant "symbolically."And then we have the accounts of the Early Church - not sure I'm allowed to mention that but early Christians believed they were receiving Jesus literally.It wasn't until hundreds & hundreds of years later that Christians departed from this literal view.Whom do we trust? Jesus' own words and the beliefs of the Christians throughtout history, or some relatively new-fangled view that He was speaking symbolically.There are many "new" ideas held by Christians which we should reject - the Rapture is one that comes to mind. It was NOT a belief shared by Chrisitans thoughout history. Jesus speaking literally in John 6 is another.Forget what you've always believed - just read John Chapter 6 and listen to the words of Christ himself.Boy, you sure do know a lot of scripture...Let me ask you a question...How tall is He?What color eye does He have?What color of hair does He have?Describe Him what He look like please?Jag
 

Peacebewithyou

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Spiritually speaking. Do you see Yahshua at all here literally? No! He is saying that without the Truth and the love of God...we are nothing, we won't have life. When we eat His words and love God above all, we grow in the faith in Christ.Jag
Where do you read in those verses Jesus saying, "when you eat my words and love God?" He says "When you eat my flesh."He is flesh is not words. He goes onto to say that His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink. (v55)
 

Peacebewithyou

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Boy, you sure do know a lot of scripture...Let me ask you a question...How tall is He?What color eye does He have?What color of hair does He have?Describe Him what He look like please?Jag
What he looks like? What does that have to do with this discussion of John Chapter 6?
 

Jordan

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Yes, I see Jesus literally.
Does that answer your question?Jag
 

HammerStone

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John 6:47-48
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.
It's not the act of eating that is what is important. The above verses frame this for us because it establishes that those that believe, and not eat, will have everlasting life. The emphasis of the entire section hangs on these words.Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Jesus, as the first chapter documents, is the Word made flesh. The above verse is the exact same thing that's going on here in John 6. This would not be the only location in the Bible where metonymy.Jeremiah 15:16
Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Ezekiel 2:8
But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.
This is a clear Hebrew idiomatic expression, and later a Greek one.Revelation 10:9
And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Again, Jesus is the Word made flesh, the bread of life.
 

Peacebewithyou

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John 6:47-48It's not the act of eating that is what is important. The above verses frame this for us because it establishes that those that believe, and not eat, will have everlasting life. The emphasis of the entire section hangs on these words.Matthew 4:4Jesus, as the first chapter documents, is the Word made flesh. The above verse is the exact same thing that's going on here in John 6. This would not be the only location in the Bible where metonymy.Jeremiah 15:16Ezekiel 2:8This is a clear Hebrew idiomatic expression, and later a Greek one.Revelation 10:9Again, Jesus is the Word made flesh, the bread of life.
Denver,I ask this with all sincerity: If Jesus was speaking sybolically - why didn't the early Chrisitans believe that? In all of their writings they speak of LITERALLY recieving the body and blood of Jesus. These were Christians living very shortly after the death of Christ who were taught by his apostles.
 

Peacebewithyou

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Does that answer your question?Jag
Jesus said "this is my flesh - this is my blood" - He wasn't talking hair color, obviously.
 

goldy

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John 6:47-48It's not the act of eating that is what is important. The above verses frame this for us because it establishes that those that believe, and not eat, will have everlasting life. The emphasis of the entire section hangs on these words.Matthew 4:4Jesus, as the first chapter documents, is the Word made flesh. The above verse is the exact same thing that's going on here in John 6. This would not be the only location in the Bible where metonymy.Jeremiah 15:16Ezekiel 2:8This is a clear Hebrew idiomatic expression, and later a Greek one.Revelation 10:9Again, Jesus is the Word made flesh, the bread of life.
Respectfully, I think Peace would agree with me in that we simply don't agree with your own, private, fallible interpretation of these scripture verses. Again, not to start a whole different debate here, but this is where we (Catholics) feel that the Bible ALONE mindset really goes off the rails. Are we to pick and choose which verses we agree with? Are we to pluck out a few passages and make it our own? When it comes to the Bible, I would say this: Amen brother!! I agree with 100% of what's in the Bible......100%!! However, I don't agree with your own, private, fallible intrepretation.
 

HammerStone

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Well, this is interesting. One of you is suggesting that I should listen to some of the early church men while the other is saying that I should not listen to private interpretation. Which is it? Or does the fact that I publish something on this board, and therefore go public with it, immediately make it true?My point here is that I am not basing what I have posted off of the early church fathers nor off of private interpretation. Ive taken examples from the entire Bible where there is a clear idiom. You cannot physically eat knowledge, but you can digest that knowledge in your mind as you think on it and meditate about it.I like to establish precedents from the Bible and not from the early church fathers. Again, the focus is clearly on the fact that Yeshua came in the flesh, not at all that you eat his flesh.I'm not hip on being the in crowd for certain, but you say the early church fathers as if this position was held with unanimity, which it rather clearly was not.I think I'll stick with Scripture, thanks.
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Christina

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From the time of your repentance, and belief in Jesus name, that eternal life comes into your soul. This offer is given to all mankind, and it is without distinction of race, or tongue. The only thing that matters is the belief in ones mind and heart in Jesus Christ, and the repentance of that soul.John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."In the Greek, My "flesh" would be better translated, My "self". Christ will give Himself for the life of all that will accept, in this earth age. This goes right back to John 3:16; "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." The "world" is the "cosmos" or "this flesh age" that all souls must come through in the flesh. To believe on Him, is to believe that a virgin actually conceived and bear the only begotten Son of God by the Spirit of the Living God. That would make God personified, or in person, in this begotten Son, Jesus Christ. He is giving Himself in the flesh. Remember it is God's way of showing that He cares for you, that you are somebody with Him. You are a person that has a purpose within His plan.The life and direction in all matters is given in His Word, the Bible. It deals with the matters of family, financing and usury, health, your conduct, and your spiritual relationship with your heavenly Father. When you believe, believe because you know that He loves you, and not just a matter of life and death of your soul. John 6:52 "The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"Many of these Jews are Kenites,(sadducees and Pharisee's) and they have no idea what Jesus is talking about. They think Jesus is promoting cannibalism of His flesh flesh. They simply do not understand the spiritual lessons that Christ is teaching. Remember earlier we discussed that this would be symbolism. Though they claim to be educated in the Scripture, they are ignorant of the Word of God.John 6:53 "Then Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you."When Jesus spoke these words to these Kenite (sadducees and pharisees)religious people, it must have really sent them in a tailspin. In Christianity we have teachings that are spiritual and symbolic of the real thing. This is the Communion that Christ is teaching, yet these people standing before Jesus hear but do not understand what is being said.John 6:54 "Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood The Communion], hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."Jesus will raise up all those that have taken of the bread of life, and His blood which is the cup, for each of them know where their salvation comes from. On the last day of this earth flesh age, all will be changed in the wink of an eye into their incorruptible spiritual bodies, and will live as joint heirs with Christ through the Millennium age, and continuing into eternity.This has more to do, then simply raising up, but it has to do with being an overcomer. To take on an inheritance as Paul relates in I Corinthians 15:52-56. When the soul body steps out of flesh body, some will be mortal [mortal means liable to die], while the others immortal. If you have accepted Jesus Christ and taken the bread of Life, then your soul is immortal and you have eternal life.Those souls that are "mortal" will live through the Millennium age, then following the great white throne judgment, each mortal soul will be judged on only his works, and those works will determined whether that soul becomes immortal which is eternal, or is to be destroyed. Those that must wait until after the Millennium age until their soul has immortality take part in what the Bible calls the "second resurrection".This verse of John 6:54 speaks of the first resurrection, which takes place at the return of Christ at the end of this flesh age. Those with the victory here have already put on their immortal soul, and will not go through the great white throne judgment and the second resurrection. This does not mean that there is a second chance for salvation, because most Christians today don't even know that Antichrist is coming first and will worship him in ignorance. Because of their ignorance they will wait until after the Millennium age, and take part in the second resurrection.John 6:55 "For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."Jesus is so strong here that those in ignorance to this spiritual meaning will be drawn to Christ completely, or dead set against Him.John 6:56 "He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood dwelleth in Me, and I in him."This again is given in the spirit, and when we open our spirit to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, then His Spirit dwells within us. The two become one. This is what we do when we take of the Communion, in remembrance of our Lord's death and resurrection.John 6:57 "As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even He shall live by Me."Just as the close relationship exists between the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son, when you eat or take of the bread of life, then Jesus will have the same spiritual relationship of oneness with each of us.John 6:58 "This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eatheth of this bread shall live for ever."If you are thinking in the physical realm of eating bread, you will miss the meaning here. Jesus is saying that those that ate of the manna from heaven in the wilderness are all physically dead. God is the giver of life that is eternal, and remember, we eat of that "Bread of Life" when by repentance we believe on His name. That is when on an individual basis, we see and accept the blood of Christ to cover your sins, by confession, and then comes your eternal life.
 

Jordan

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Jesus said "this is my flesh - this is my blood" - He wasn't talking hair color, obviously.
I know that. Yahshua was speaking symbolic on that chapter. If you are literally taking those verses literally. You would know that it is against God's law. Christ is God. And God can not break His laws. So to speak...It's symbolic.Jag
 

Peacebewithyou

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Well, this is interesting. One of you is suggesting that I should listen to some of the early church men while the other is saying that I should not listen to private interpretation. Which is it? Or does the fact that I publish something on this board, and therefore go public with it, immediately make it true?My point here is that I am not basing what I have posted off of the early church fathers nor off of private interpretation. Ive taken examples from the entire Bible where there is a clear idiom. You cannot physically eat knowledge, but you can digest that knowledge in your mind as you think on it and meditate about it.I like to establish precedents from the Bible and not from the early church fathers. Again, the focus is clearly on the fact that Yeshua came in the flesh, not at all that you eat his flesh.I'm not hip on being the in crowd for certain, but you say the early church fathers as if this position was held with unanimity, which it rather clearly was not.I think I'll stick with Scripture, thanks.
smile.gif

Denver,But don't you see that you are choosing which verses to inpret literally and which to take symbolically? You connect which ever verses you want to make your point. (As we all do). It's that arsenal we pull out to support our own views. I do think it's interesting though that those taught by the Apostles and those they taught, and those they taught - literally for hundreds & hudreds of years belived it to be Christ's literal flesh. Not knowledge. Every single one of them preached AGAINST the heresy that Christ was not who He said He was (fully God/fully man - and the Eucharist was not truly His body). You are welcome to not believe any of what those men believed to be true though. But it's ironic that say that you go back to "sticking with Scripture."Who do you think decided which writings were the inspired Word of God? Those SAME early Church Fathers that wrote that Jesus was speaking literally in John 6. The Bible didn't just fall out of the sky from heaven - those men, whom God directed through the Holy Spirit considered HUNDREDS of writings & letters and chose which were inspried by God. If you trust them to cannonize the Bible - why don't you trust what they believed about Jesus? :confused:
 

Peacebewithyou

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I know that. Yahshua was speaking sybolic on that chapter. If you are literally taking those verses literally. You would know that it is against God's law. Christ is God. And God can not break His laws. So to speak...It's symbolic.Jag
Specifically which law would it be breaking?
 

Peacebewithyou

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Just as the close relationship exists between the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son, when you eat or take of the bread of life, then Jesus will have the same spiritual relationship of oneness with each of us.John 6:58 "This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eatheth of this bread shall live for ever."If you are thinking in the physical realm of eating bread, you will miss the meaning here. Jesus is saying that those that ate of the manna from heaven in the wilderness are all physically dead. God is the giver of life that is eternal, and remember, we eat of that "Bread of Life" when by repentance we believe on His name. That is when on an individual basis, we see and accept the blood of Christ to cover your sins, by confession, and then comes your eternal life.
Paul writes to the Corinthians: 16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. "To be guilty of the body and blood" of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine "unworthily" be so serious if it were symbolic of knowledge? Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.