Are we the "Elect"?

shturt678 said:

Thank you for your response and caring!

Matt.20:1-16, "hire laborers for the vineyard" is about the "called," visible church on earth in veiled parabolic language, and to undress this one is going to wall this thread thus let's move to an easier to undress Parable in Matt.22:1-14, viz., v.3, "to call" then fast forward to v.14, "For many are called ones,..." Thus let's not throw out the baby with the dishwater, O.K.?

However you do have the right idea...keep the money and land coming in with a combined call. I'm going to have to hit the Hawaiian Lulu Bowl this morning for fuel as my wallet flattened again...going to start disliking elephants pretty soon.

Old Jack changing the water....keeping the baby...agape those called babies.

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No sorry Jack, the context/moral to this parable is shown in v13-16.
V14 says; Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. I see nothing about "called ones".

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary writes;
This parable, recorded only by Matthew, is closely connected with the end of the nineteenth chapter, being spoken with reference to Peter's question as to how it should fare with those who, like himself, had left all for Christ. It is designed to show that while they would be richly rewarded, a certain equity would still be observed towards later converts and workmen in His service.

shturt678 said:

btw my brother, I know exactly how the RT interprets this Parable, ie, my best student in Koine is from the RT camp.

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Hi Jack,

Where do you teach?

shturt678 said:

Thank you for your response!

You played your trump card...that's my Commentary also - great!

They got some things correct dealing with commentary's interpretations, ie, this is why i use comparative Commentaries probably just as you do my brother. Check out also one of my main Commentaries dealing with Matt.22, viz. online Martin Chemnitz...this is where I got my interpretation from. Good job, ie, I always knew you could raise the bar.

Old Jack pushing back...getting old and hard to push anymore...think our Lord wants me pulling?

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Thanks Jack. I didn't get my take from JFB, I just used them to show you how the mainstream look at this. This is the way I've always seen it.

Nomad said:

Not every time. The following passages are written to the Church, not just Israel.

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

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The Roman church was populated by Jews along with a few converted heathen , the book of Romans is flavored with corrections from Paul to Jews who were trying to carry over too much of the old legalism into the new faith.

Paul continually calls them brothers and sisters , but it is in the context of Jewish brothers and sisters .... notice it constantly refers to "those who were under the law" etc .... Romans 7:1 Romans 7:4 Romans 7:5 Romans 7:6 Romans 8:1 Romans 8:2

Those are but a few examples , read carefully and you will find hundreds more , the heathen gentiles were never under the law so those teachings would not have been to them

Some of the heathen gentiles were being caught up in Jewish legalisms carried over by the Roman Jewish Christian Church , and that was one of the reasons Paul had to write the letter to those Jews to correct them.

Some of the biggest misunderstandings we can find within christianity stems from our failure to decipher between what is Israel , and what is for gentiles .

Of course we are all "one" and "equal" under Christ , but that is beside the point , it does not give us license to say everything was written directly to , or about us (gentiles)

Israel is the elect , some became Christians early on , the rest were hardened Romans 11:7 Romans 11:25

We are pagan heathen gentiles who have found salvation in Christ , and we will share in some of the blessings for Israel , but we are not the elect.

Martin W. said:

The Roman church was populated by Jews along with a few converted heathen...

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Hello Martin. I'm going to have to disagree with you here. It's actually the other way around. The Roman church would have been primarily Gentiles along with some Jewish believers.

Rom 1:13 I want you to know, brothers, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles.
Rom 1:14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
Rom 1:15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

I think it's clear from the preceding passage that Paul considers the Roman church to be primarily Gentile. Also note that Paul refers to them as "brothers." It was your contention that Paul would have only used the term "brothers" in a Jewish context. Here, in the first chapter we see Paul referring to Gentile believers as "brothers."

It's true that Paul addresses Jews directly in many places, but it's not hard to see when this is the case. Otherwise, his comments apply to all believers. Let's take my proof text for example. I should have provided more of the context for the sake of clarity. Here it is.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Notice that those being addressed are "those who love God." This appellation applies to all believers, not just Jews. Then with one coherent train of thought Paul describes "those who love God." They are:

- those for whom all things work together for good (vs. 28)

- called according to God's purpose (vs. 28)

- foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (vs. 29)

- justified and glorified (vs. 30)

Paul continues to address the same audience of "those who love God" in verses 31 - 34, calling them "elect" in verse 33. Again, there is nothing in that section to indicate that Paul is speaking only to Jews and every indication that his intended audience is all believers.

In Matthew chapter 24, Christ himself plainly describes his return. He states that, "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Mat. 24:29-31)

Rapture proponents try to argue that the "elect" that Christ is referring to is a specific group of Jewish believers, and not the much larger group that they say has already been "raptured" by that point; but there aren't any verses that say that! If you look closely at this passage, you'll see they are forced to attempt this, because the verse states in a point blank way that this gathering of his elect occurs after the tribulation. In short, because they want to believe in the rapture, they are now put in the position of seeking to redefine another key element of theology in order to defend the pre-conceived view! This is not the way to approach Bible prophecy.

The fact is, there are many, many passages in scripture where the term "elect" is applied to all believers -- both Jewish and Gentile. In fact, in the Old Testament in a passage that is universally understood to be a messianic prophecy, the word "elect" is used to describe Christ himself. Isaiah writes "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." (Isa. 42:1) In Romans, Paul makes a clear distinction between the Jews as "Israel" and the "elect" as the believers in Christ when he says "What then, Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." (Rom. 11:7) To the Colossians, who were largely Greeks, Paul writes "...there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of god, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies..." (Col. 3:12, 13)

In short, the elect are the Christians, not the ethnic Jews that supposedly get saved after a rapture the scripture fails to mention.

[If you look up the word 'elect,' you'll see that Peter, Paul and John all called the Christians the elect in nine different books! "Brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure." (2 Pet. 1:10) The problem is obvious: If the "ELECT" are Jews...how do you make "SURE" you're born a Jew?]

Many are called FEW are chosen...Matthew 22

The term 'elect' is given to born again christians only. Once you become born again you are now part of the elect.