The Rapture View: The Three Harvests

Did you ever read when this happens? Try reading 2 Thess when does it say it will happen ?AFTER What?

But it happens Kriss

I will get to that Im just teaching you how do dicover this for yourself rather than just tell you All need to learn thisSo Now read chapters 2-3 Thess.what is the subject of Pauls letter and when does he say this will happen? After who comes?1. What does he want to talk to the Thess. about?2. What does he warn them not to be confused by?3. What (who must )happen first before the gathering together?

Yes the anti-chris has to come before Jesus at 6 trumpetYes Jesus has not come yet.Then Jesus comes at 7th tru and we meet him in the air, clouds etc

Paul tells the Thess.He does not want them to be confused by any previous communications concerning the gather together coming of Christ that includes 1 Thess.3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. This completly rules out any Pre-trib rapture as there is no kind of gathering to the clouds or anywhere else until after the rebellion/the man of lawlessness/ There is only one who has been alreay judged to destruction and that is Satan. Here is a study on the Names of Satan in scripture for futher proof[url="http://www.christianityboard.com/satan-and-his-names-t3116.html?t=3116&highlight=satan+names]http://www.christianityboard.com/satan-and...ght=satan+names[/url]Rev. Says Satan comes in 5th/6th trump Now christ comes at the seventh trumpwhat will happen?1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Be changed to what? Our incoruptable bodies. Is flesh incoruptable? No of corse not we are changed in to our spirit bodies. So at the 7th trump Christ returns in the twinkling of an eye we changed to spirit (this is the same word as air) WE will then all gather to or Lord. in a large group(cloud of people)So 1st thess is just saying at the coming of the Lord our newly changed spirit(air) bodiesWill all gather to the Lord in a large group (it appears as a cloud of People)(a sea of people) these are figures of speech.Now why would we want to fly away (be raptured out of here) when Christ has just come down to us??Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husbandRev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

This clearly shows No one can use 1 Thess 1:4 as evidence of a pre- trib rapture when Paul himself the writter of 1 Thess. Says thats we are not to use/be confused by it as it will not happen until the 7th and last trump and that trump is the coming of Christ. Who wants to fly away then thats what we have been waiting for. There is no other scripture in the entire Bible that talks of any Raptureing/flying or leaving earth at any time or any manner until Christ returns. And changes us in fact we are told a secret here that those of us that overcome and do follow antichris(Satan) are called the Elecet (the overcomers) and the secret we are told is we will not all die.a physical death Why is this because we are changed in the twinkling of an eye transformed/transfigered (think Enoch) to our spirit bodies. Now if you want to call this a post (after tribulation Rapture) you could but God never uses the Word.

So then if we all agree that Satan Comes first, then Adonai Y'shua HaMashiach, why are you arguing. We are going to meet him nonetheless. The Holy Ghost of G-d is with us until the day of Our redemption!

Kriss I know !!! for the fifth time this does show evidence there is no pre trib. It is clear though he is raising saints up to the clouds at seconed coming after tribulationat the wink of an eye.. It seems soooo clear. I guess I cant buy into your inturpitation.

What is man that God is mindful of him? Man was created in God’s image, but what does that mean? Does it mean that man is a spirit like God? Does it mean that God has a physical body like ours? Or does it refer to the quality of the mind God gave him? Is it all the above and more? Why does God come in the likeness of man to save man thru rebirth? What is this rebirth and eternal life? What is the judgment for sin? To understand what man is, it is helpful to contrast angels and man to God. “But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man(referring to Jesus), that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;” Heb.2: “And of the angels he saith; Who maketh his angels spirits” Heb1:7. Speaking of Jesus he saith; “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham” Heb.2:16. It is important to note that angels are a different form of spirit than God, because “God is a Spirit”(John 4:24.) and Jesus(God) took not the form of an angel which is a spirit also, but took the form of man. Christ’s spiritual nature has “life in himself” John 5:26 but angle’s spirit get their life from Christ who is “sustaining all things by his powerful word” Heb1:3. “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Phil.2:5-8. “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” Heb.2:16-17. So what is man, if God and angels are spirit and Jesus did not take on the form of a spirit(angel)? What form is man that Jesus took on if it is not spirit? “And the Lord God formed man of the dust (body) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life: and man became a living soul.” Gen. 2:7. This states that man became a living soul with component parts of dust, spirit, and soul; not a living spirit or body. < “I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” 1 Thes.5:23.> The bible often speaks of man as if he were a body, a soul, or a spirit, attributing the characteristics of a person to each of the three parts individually. This has caused many to believe that man is a living spirit that can live apart from the body or a living body instead of a living soul made up of a body, soul and spirit. Example:· Body: “For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” Gen.3:19.· Soul: “ My soul longeth… even fainteth for the courts of the Lord” Psalm 84:2. “thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” 3John 1:2 · Spirit: “preached unto the spirits in prison” 1Peter 3:19. To illustrate why the bible speaks of any part as the whole person, take a coil (the body) and run electricity (spirit) through it. What you get is a third element which is a magnetic field (the soul). What created the magnetism (the soul)? Both, increase the power of the electric current or the number of coils in the coil and you get a stronger magnetic field. The magnetic field needs the coil and electricity to function. Illustration 2: Your soul likened unto software (brain) for a computer, your body is like a computer which is run by the electricity (your spirit). All 3 are needed to make it function. However the focus in the bible is the living soul not a living spirit. So whenever a person is referred to in the bible (as you, them, him, etc.) with out making reference to one of the parts, it refers to the whole person (body, soul, and spirit) not the body or soul or spirit alone. The soul needs the body and spirit to express itself. The following scripture illustrate the focus on the soul for major issues:· “The soul that sins, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:4. · The object of our salvation, “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls” 1Peter 1:8-9.· “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” Math 10:28.· “We are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul” Heb. 10:39.· Speaking of Jesus: “make his soul an offering for sin…. poured out his soul unto death” Isa.53:10&12· At the 1st death the body and soul go to the grave, and the spirits of all men go back to God. Soul: “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul form the hand of the grave” Psalm 89:47-49 Body: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (both righteous and wicked people’s spirit) Eccl.12:7. Spirit: “There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit” Eccl.8:8. Note that the spirit is not a person when it returns to God.This is clearly illustrated by Jesus death for us, the foundation of all doctrine from the scripture: Christ “make his soul an offering for sin…. poured out his soul unto death” Isa.53:10&12. Christ’s soul and body went into the grave 3 days, and his spirit went to God the father the day he died on the cross, not after the resurrection: Christ on the cross-“Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit” Luke 23:46. It is not saying the spirit as the conscious part of Christ went to heaven that day, but that the spirit as a none personal element went back to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7). Christ’s soul was in the grave for 3 days “the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” Mat. 12:40. He ascended to the Father after his resurrection: “He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption” Acts 2:31. The soul is considered to be man’s being, but the spirit is “the breath of the spirit of life” taken away from him (committed to God). “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” Phil.2-5. The mind and its capacity to reflect the attributes of God’s character is probably the major aspect of being made in God’s image. After man had sinned, sin consumed him and separated him from God’s Holy Spirit: “ Then the LORD said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh” Gen.6:3. The day man sinned he died spiritually, meaning he no longer had Gods Spirit in him to guide him. “Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” Rom.8:9. Man choose to live without God’s Spirit and depended on his own self (flesh, carnal, that which is of the world) and not God. “For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom.8:7-8. For it is by Gods Spirit all things are understood, “for without me (God) ye can do nothing” John 15:5. The born again person is dead to sin but alive to God. Man without Gods Spirit is dead to God but alive to sin. Just as Christ died for sin “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom.6:11 “For if ye live after the flesh(not receiving things of the Spirit), ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” Rom.8:13 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” Rom.8:14. “to be carnally minded is Death; but to be spiritually minded is life”Rom.8:6 “The natural man(flesh or carnal nature) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned.” 1Cor.2:14. “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”Rom.4:17. This principle is illustrated through out the Bible. · God considers saved man as perfect even though man is not perfect, the process of growing us in Christ’s image is not completed until the resurrection when he returns for us(Phil.1:6): “With one sacrifice he made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Heb.10:14. · God also considers those that are dead to his Spirit but alive to sin (“the souls alive” Ezekiel 13:18-19) as if they were really dead because “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of god abidedth on him.” John 3:35. But the wrath of God is not executed until the end of the age: “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”2Pet. 3:7.· “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,” Eph.2:4-6. We are not actually there yet or raised from the dead, but considered to be a new creation raised from the dead and seated with Christ in heaven through Christ now (Roman 6). “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”KJ. God has a plan to save man “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2Peter 3:9. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” John 3:16. “Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” John 3:3-8. What does the bible mean to be born again, born again of water and Spirit? The people of the old testament should also have understood this: “Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?” John 3:8:9-10. “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” Gal.4:28-29. The following scripture explain born of water and Spirit and apply it to the body, soul, and spirit. It illustrates that rebirth is the word of God put into our heart by the work and leading of God the Holy Spirit.· “give us birth by the word of truth” James 1:18 · “with the washing of water by the word,” Ep.5:26 · “he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;” Titus3:5.· “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren; being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God.” 1Pet.1:22-23. · “our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith” Heb.20:22-23. “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” Rom. 12:1-2. “for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” 1Cor.3:16-17 The bible speaks of having a fallen nature and applies it to the body, soul, and spirit. It is apparent that nothing about man is holy yet, however man is considered to be a holy person by the Spirit of God dwelling in him through the death of Christ. “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”KJ. Without God’s Spirit living with us and leading us it is impossible to do good(spiritual things) “7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness…. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”Rom.8:7-10&14 Life and existence is only by the power of Christ. Christ defines himself as I am; “say unto the children of Israel, I Am has sent me unto you…. The Lord God of your fathers… this is my name forever…” Exodus 3:3-15. “Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:56-58. He is the self eternal existing one, “through whom everything exists” Heb.2:10, including spirits and souls. “sustaining all things by his powerful word” Heb1:3. “For our God is a consuming fire. Heb. 12:29. We exist eternally only in Christ by his power: “In him we…. have our being…” Acts 17:28. Our life is in the son: “And this is the record that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” 1 John 5:11-12. We do not have life in ourselves: “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” John 5:26. “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” Rom.8:9. “Christ, who is our life,” Col.2:4. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of god abidedth on him.” John 3:35. The wrath of God is not executed until the end of the age: “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” 2Pet. 3:7. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2Pet.3:9. Until the end of the age the “rain falls on the just and unjust” and we are to “do good unto your enemy”. The wicked and righteous souls are alive by the power of God; “seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things” Acts 17:25. In Christ we have live eternal. Without Christ we are alive only for a short time, “to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished” 2Pet.2:9, were the soul that sins shall die, therefore they are called the living dead because the wrath of God Abides on them. For the saved: “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Col.3:3, “Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.” Luke 18:30, “and in the world to come eternal life.” Mark 10:30. “Whoever lives and believes in me, will never die” John 11:27 also refers to soul sleep till the resurrection were it awakes, for it is subject to the grave till then. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” Math 10:28, the soul is not destroyed in the first death but the second death, were God executes his judgment on sinners. This is why it is said “and in the world to come eternal life.” Mark 10:30 when the soul awakes from sleep. Death penalty:2nd Death:Contrast with the characteristic of Christ. Contrast: I Am/ no more, eternal:“and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezek. 28:13-19. This is referring to both man and the fallen angel Lucifer. “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.” Psalm 104:35. “For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen….they shall be as though they had not been.” Obadiah 15-16. “And there shall be no more death….for the former things are passed away.” Rev. 21:4. “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” Rev. 20:14.Execution of death penalty: Its execution can not be stopped: “to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44.“to be cast into everlasting fire.” Math.18:8. The duration of the execution is limited: “How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: ….. and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.” Rev.18:7-8. note that this is not endless torment but limited by how much evil she did. Also “shall be beaten with many stripes.” Luke 12:47 not endless strips. “devoured them” Rev.20:9. “burned up” 2Peter 3:7. “Sodom & Gomorrha… example,….eternal fire.” Jude 7. The results are eternal: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.” 2 Thess.1:9 (not everlasting destructing, but destruction that shall not be reversed, the process is limited). “these shall go away into everlasting punishment” Math.25:46. Example: Contrast use of eternal in terms of results not execution. Eternal: “eternal salvation” Heb. 5:9, not forever saving, but saved by one act forever. “eternal judgment” Heb. 2:9, not judging forever, but an act of judgment which is irrevocable. “eternal redemption” Heb. 9:12, not a redeeming act that takes forever to accomplish, but an act that took 3 days, that releases you forever from death. “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Math. 25:46. The punishment for sin is death, which lasts forever, not forever dying. Even creation testifies to this, in this world death is considered the worst punishment for a crime, not because of the length of suffering, but because you can’t participate in anything anymore.. “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.”Rev.20:10. Compare: Jonah in the belly of the whale “the earth with her bars was about me forever” Jonah 2:6, yet “Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.” Jonah 1:17. Also, Christ, who paid the price for eternal death for us, who was dead three days in the grave. The duration of eternal is related to the nature of the subject it refers to in the bible. For Satan who did the greatest sin, his execution duration will probably be 3 days, as Christ was in the grave. But the end result of the eternal fire for all sin and sinners is:“never shalt thou be any more.” Ezek. 28:13-19, which is the second death. “and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Rev.21:4. Answer to some commonly misunderstood scripture: Many misunderstanding are cleared up when taken in context, with the foundation of the scripture on the nature of man stated above. Consideration A: God will bring the spirits of the dead with him when he returns to get their bodies. “ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep.” 1Thess.4:13-15. Many interpret this to mean that the spirits of those who have died are coming back with Jesus, when he comes the 2nd time, to get their bodies. To get the correct meaning we need to understand the question and how it is being answered. Many Christians feared that Jesus already came the 2nd time and went back to heaven without them or that there would be no resurrection. · “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.” 2Thess.2:1-2. · “Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?” 1Cor.15:12. · “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” 1Thess.4:13.He informs them that this is not so, then he explains in detail how those living and those who have died (sleep) will go together with Jesus back to heaven.· “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.” 1Thess.4:14-15. He then explains in detail how we will go back to together with Jesus to heaven.· “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1Thess.4:16-17. The Bible consistently tells us the we will not be with Christ until he returns the second time:· “I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1Thess.5:23.· “And to wait for his Son from heaven” 1Thess.1:10 · “that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 1Cor.5:5.· “Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward…. “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” John 13:36-14:3.· “will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” Heb.9:28. Consideration B:Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 1Cor.5:8 Many Christians believe that this means that when we die our spirit leaves the body to be the Jesus. However, this verse is the conclusion to the preceding 7 verses where he did not want to be found naked (absent from the body) but to be clothed with his house (body) from heaven and thus be with the Lord.:· 2Cor. 5:1 “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” This house is in reference to what Christ said: John 13:36 “Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now: but thou shalt follow me afterwords.” John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.” This is referring to the 2nd coming. · 2cor5:2 “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.” Naked refers to the 1st death were our earthly body sees corruption as did David’s. Paul did not look forward to being found dead, but being resurrected with his heavenly body or as he put it “desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.” · 2cor. 5:4 “For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (dead), but clothed upon(house from heaven), that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” (referring to the 1st resurrection). This is referring to 1Cor. 15: 54 “So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” Which occurs at the 1st resurrection when Christ returns for us. · 2cor. 5:5 “Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore (based on the previous 4 verses) we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” “To be present with the Lord” is referring, to the putting off this earthly tabernacle which “cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”(1Cor. 15:50), and receiving our new house from heaven at the resurrection. So will we be present with the Lord. Remember he did not want to be unclothed which was the 1st death-sleep, but to be clothed with our house from heaven, the resurrection body. 2Cor. 5:1 “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” This house is in reference to what Christ said: John 13:36 “Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now: but thou shalt follow me afterwords.” John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also”:Consideration C: Thief on the cross “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43. This is a punctuation error and should read: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” There is no punctuation in the original language. Jesus died that day and went to the grave for 3 days, so he did not go to paradise until another day, paradise is in Heaven: “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Rev.2:7. “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,” Rev.22:1-2. “Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;” Zechariah 9:12. This is a similar example which was fulfilled on a different day.Consideration D: Not God of the dead but living for we will never die: “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” John 11:25-26 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” John 8:51. “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Math.22:29-32. Many people believe that when the bible says we shall never see death because God is not God of the dead but the living, that this refers to the idea we are living spirits which go to be with God at death, and that it is our body which dies. This however can not be correct because God did not take upon him the form of a spirit but that of a living soul: “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels(spirits); but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” Heb.2:16. Abraham is a living soul, not a living spirit in Genesis 2:7. The soul is subject to the grave during the 1st death: “for thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;” Psalm 16:9-11. Shall never die refers to the 2nd death which is the penalty for sin, because Heb. 9:27 says “it is appointed unto men once to die” referring to the 1st death. The 1st death is called sleep by Jesus because the soul is not destroyed until the 2nd death: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Math.10:28). This is why the bible is also able to say that God is God of the Living and the Dead(sleeping) also: “For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead(sleeping righteous, not the wicked dead) and living.” Rom.14:7-11. The body is not the focus, see Math.10;28. But “the soul that sins it shall die”, Eze.18:4.

KrissI am trying to say post trib rapture, but I dont use rapture I use 2nd coming. I am trying to be more precise. Thanks for your time and teaching You are truly a blessing to me.Steve

I don't know how many of you have brothers with the gift of prophecy in your church. I happen to be in a church that God has blessed many of his children with this holy gift and also the brethren who preach are ispired by the Holy Spirit. It has been many years that prophecies warn of being alert and ready for this holy marriage of Jesus and His beloved bride, His church, as we are currenlty only engaged with our Lord through the Holy Spirit. The prophecies warn of being ready for this transformation of our bodies into the new ones and meeting "the Lord in the air", or else suffer afterward in the time of antichrist. So do the preachings. It is so sure this will happen, as is the coming of the dawn every morning.Get ready. God bless!

(crooner;23587)
Kriss I know !!! for the fifth time this does show evidence there is no pre trib. It is clear though he is raising saints up to the clouds at seconed coming after tribulationat the wink of an eye.. It seems soooo clear. I guess I cant buy into your inturpitation.
Where are you getting this?What scipture are you seeing this in ? I say again Christ is coming here why would he raise the saints up into the clouds? I see it as him coming with the saints

(Jonous;23741)
I don't know how many of you have brothers with the gift of prophecy in your church. I happen to be in a church that God has blessed many of his children with this holy gift and also the brothren who preach are ispired by the Holy Spirit. It has been many years that prophecies warn of being alert and ready for this holy marriage of Jesus and His beloved bride, His church, as we are currenlty only engaged with our Lord through the Holy Spirit. The prophecies warn of being ready for this transformation of our bodies into the new ones and meeting "the Lord in the air", or else suffer afterward in the time of antichrist. So do the preachings. It is so sure this will happen, as is the coming of the dawn every morning.Get ready. God bless!
THERE IS NO RAPTURE BEFORE THE COMING ANTICHRIST this is biggest lie Satan is telling the church today. As I started this thread I challenge anyone to show where Gods word says anything about any rapture or flying away everyone will either have to choose to follow Christ or Antichrist EVERYONE there is no being spared unless you refuse to follow Antichrist and then God takes care of his own but it will not be by flying anyone out of here.We will all be here so if your church isnt preparing your people for what will happen so they can overcome you are not listening to God but to men

Kriss also remember The Word of God says if possible to deceive the very Elect, BUT THE SHEEP KNOW THE SHEPHERD'S VOICE! When these delusioned Pre-trib rapture Believers see the anti-Christ before they see the "secret rapture" then they will know they have to keep the Word. But there will also be some Pre-trib rapture believers that will be deceived into thinking that Anti-Christ aka Satan Flesh Incarnate is Christ and will think the rapture is come. Don't think that all rapture, pre-trib to be more exact, are going to fall for the delusion and the snare. Remember God leads his Sheep, he will not Slumber and they who truly know and love his Voice will hear it. AMEN?! AMEN!

I want to comment on 2 Thes. 2 that Kriss mentioned. Kriss obviously Paul is talking about two separate events. It says "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," - 2 Thes 2:1They are two diffenrent events, one is the gathering and the other is Christ's coming. And Paul makes this distinction and explains the order these two will take place.When we talk about the rapture we are talking about us going and meeting Jesus up high, no one on earth will see him. The coming of Jesus that everyone wiil see is of course after antichrist has showed hismself, his intensions and has performed his evil deeds. That's what Paul explains to Thessalonians that will happen after falling away has come and the man of sin is revealed and the mystery of iniquity has been completed.Now some verses down the chapter Paul writes "only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way." - 2 Thes. 2:7Now who is the one who will be taken out of the way? Isn't it us the chistians with the Holy Spirit? Because it says "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted?" Aren't we the salt of the earth that with the Holy Spirit, the "Comforter" that has been sent unto us who will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment through us (John 16:7), we prevent evil from working his way? But when we are taken, along will leave the Spirit and then there will be no one to stop antichrist from working freely. This is the gathering of christians. This is the hope we who are still alive live by "Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast".God bess.

Michael is the one taken out of the Way if you read Rev you are told this that its Michael he battles woe unto those on earth it is not a separate subject in 2 Thess if you study the history of the church in Thess you will find it was only three weeks old when Paul had to leave In 1 st Thess. it was made up of Jew and Gentile and these new Christians had mistaken Pauls first letter to mean Christ had already come so they were expecting to be changed any moment When Timothy saw this he reported it back to Paul who immediately sent his second letter to them. explaining that Christ had not returned and that it would not happen until THE SON OF LAWLESSNESS/ THE SON OF PERTIONTION WHICH IS SATAN HIMSELF WHO IS NOW BEING HELD BY MICHAEL . Where he has physically been held sense the death on the cross only his evil spirit roams the earth at present. He will not be here de facto until the 6th trump.There is no hidden rapture, pre trib rapture, mid trib rapture, there is only ONE SECOND COMING OF THE LORD the White throne judgement the saints the dead raising out of the sea are all things that take place 1000 years after the second coming these are the things that happen after the Millenium age you cant mix up the two different Judgements and resurrections.