Propecies concerning "Israel"?

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shturt678

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Prophecies concerning "Israel"? sorry with typo!

A lot going on, need to bounce some issues off of you.

Israel is God's vehicle to bring salvation to the world?
Israel's chosen people of God, and will be restored?
Israel is presently being restored back to God?
Israel broke God's covenant at the Cross?

Old Jack
 

RANDOR

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Could you put those questions in multible choice please..........Haven't had any coffee yet this morning.
 

shturt678

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RANDOR said:
Could you put those questions in multible choice please..........Haven't had any coffee yet this morning.
Alarm clock went off an couple of hours ago...slept in? That's o.k., ie, "resting in our Lord" is Scriptural. The Arab and Jewish Christians over there do need prayer as well as our brothers and sisters in Iraq (very bad things happed to them).

We'll increase our prayer life this weekend!

Old Jack
 

Eric E Stahl

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shturt678 said:
Prophecies concerning "Israel"? sorry with typo!

A lot going on, need to bounce some issues off of you.

Israel is God's vehicle to bring salvation to the world?
Israel's chosen people of God, and will be restored?
Israel is presently being restored back to God?
Israel broke God's covenant at the Cross?

Old Jack
Isaiah 59:20-21
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
 

shturt678

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Eric E Stahl said:
Isaiah 59:20-21
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
Thank you for your response!

Amen! This theophany in Isa.59:20 is reminiscent of the many theophanies recorded in the Scriptures. In Rom.11:27 Paul gives a Messianic interpretation of the passage...great!

Old Jack
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response!

Amen! This theophany in Isa.59:20 is reminiscent of the many theophanies recorded in the Scriptures. In Rom.11:27 Paul gives a Messianic interpretation of the passage...great!

Old Jack
There is no "theophany" in Isaiah 59:20; it's a PROPHECY about the coming Messiah! And, if you're calling THIS a "theophany," then it's no WONDER why you think there are "many theophanies!" And, it's also a good indicator that you need to go back and re-learn what a "theophany" is!

It's really quite simple (to anyone who is open to a futurist's point of view, that is): This is a FUTURE occurrence of Yeshua`s RETURN and when He restores the children of Isra'el to their former glory. And, yes, Romans 11:27 is about that time period, as well.
 

shturt678

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.


There is no "theophany" in Isaiah 59:20; it's a PROPHECY about the coming Messiah! And, if you're calling THIS a "theophany," then it's no WONDER why you think there are "many theophanies!" And, it's also a good indicator that you need to go back and re-learn what a "theophany" is!

It's really quite simple (to anyone who is open to a futurist's point of view, that is): This is a FUTURE occurrence of Yeshua`s RETURN and when He restores the children of Isra'el to their former glory. And, yes, Romans 11:27 is about that time period, as well.
Thank you for your response again, and caring!

Hey, I got one out of two...not bad kick-starting my day,

Thank you again!

Old Jack agreeing to disagree in agape....agaping those appearances.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:
Prophecies concerning "Israel"? sorry with typo!

A lot going on, need to bounce some issues off of you.

Israel is God's vehicle to bring salvation to the world?
Israel's chosen people of God, and will be restored?
Israel is presently being restored back to God?
Israel broke God's covenant at the Cross?

Old Jack
Yes, Isra'el is God's vehicle to bring salvation to the world.
The word "salvation" (or "rescue" or "deliverance") is a translation of the Hebrew word "yshuw`aah," (spelled "yod-sheva-shin-shureq-ayin-qamets-hei") from which the name "Yeeshuwa`" (Yeshua` or Jeshua or Jesus) comes. The name means "He will save" or "He will rescue" or "He will deliver."

OT:3442 Yeeshuwa` (yay-shoo'-ah); for OT:3091; he will save; Jeshua, the name of ten Israelites, also of a place in Palestine:
KJV - Jeshua.

OT:3443 Yeeshuwa` (Aramaic) (yay-shoo'-ah); corresponding to OT:3442:
KJV - Jeshua.

OT:3444 yshuw`aah (yesh-oo'-aw); feminine passive participle of OT:3467; something saved, i.e. (abstractly) deliverance; hence, aid, victory, prosperity:
KJV - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Yes, Isra'el, God's chosen people, will be restored.
Romans 11:11-30
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (RESURRECTION!) 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33,34)


28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
NIV


Yes, Isra'el is presently being restored back to God.

If you only knew the way that Jews and Isra'elis are being introduced to their Messiah Yeshua` by the THOUSANDS, both in Isra'el and throughout the world, you would not doubt the power of God to restore His people!

No, Isra'el did NOT break God's covenant at the cross. It happened BEFORE that!

Matthew 23:29-39
29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" (Psalm 118:26)
NIV
 

shturt678

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Thank you for your response again!

Rom.11:11-30 Lets take some sound bytes out of Romans chapter 11, the failure of the Jews because of Unbelief leaves a Remnant and is a warning for the Gentiles. Putting teeth to the Scriptures, together.

Byte number one, Rom.11:26, 27 (Isa.59:20, 21; 27:9), "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer;" This 'bite' is vital for the three prophetic lines that follow. When He comes in His first Advent "he shall turn ungodliness away from Jacob," namely, the different forms of unbelief away from those Jews who, by being freed from this, their unbelief, will be grafted into their olive tree, and constitute a part of "all "Israel," the true spiritual Israel. This is what Paul has just said in his own words: "All Israel shall be saved," ie, by this Goel or Savior.

Agreeing to agree..great! Israel did break God's covenant way before the Cross, however God's total and final rejection of the Jewish nation didn't occur until the Cross of course, ie, judgment of God, Matt.23:29, etc.

Old agreeing Jack
 

keras

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JACK, you still have PROPHESIES wrong. Unless American spelling allows the 'c' in the plural of prophecy. Write it on the blackboard 100 times!
Anyway, here is a date to watch; the Ninth of AV. On this a day, many disasters have befallen the Jews, both the 1st and 2nd Temples were destroyed on Av 9. Possible prophesies to be fulfilled on that day are; Isaiah 3:1-26, Malachi 5:1
This year it is the 5th of August.
 

shturt678s

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keras said:
JACK, you still have PROPHESIES wrong. Unless American spelling allows the 'c' in the plural of prophecy. Write it on the blackboard 100 times!
Anyway, here is a date to watch; the Ninth of AV. On this a day, many disasters have befallen the Jews, both the 1st and 2nd Temples were destroyed on Av 9. Possible prophesies to be fulfilled on that day are; Isaiah 3:1-26, Malachi 5:1
This year it is the 5th of August.
Thank you for your response again!

Wow! It's been a loooong time since I've used the verb "prophesy" in the sense of predicting....off the top...I've always used the noun "prophecy" when dealing with the Scriptures, however thank you anyway.

Old substantive Jack
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, Jack.

shturt678s said:
Thank you for your response again!

Wow! It's been a loooong time since I've used the verb "prophesy" in the sense of predicting....off the top...I've always used the noun "prophecy" when dealing with the Scriptures, however thank you anyway.

Old substantive Jack
I think what "keras" was saying is that you still have the "PROPHECIES" wrong. (And, yes, keras, this is the correct American English spelling for the plural of "prophecy," the noun form.)

I also think you have them wrong.

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response again!

Rom.11:11-30 Lets take some sound bytes out of Romans chapter 11, the failure of the Jews because of Unbelief leaves a Remnant and is a warning for the Gentiles. Putting teeth to the Scriptures, together.

Byte number one, Rom.11:26, 27 (Isa.59:20, 21; 27:9), "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer;" This 'bite' is vital for the three prophetic lines that follow. When He comes in His first Advent "he shall turn ungodliness away from Jacob," namely, the different forms of unbelief away from those Jews who, by being freed from this, their unbelief, will be grafted into their olive tree, and constitute a part of "all "Israel," the true spiritual Israel. This is what Paul has just said in his own words: "All Israel shall be saved," ie, by this Goel or Savior.

Agreeing to agree..great! Israel did break God's covenant way before the Cross, however God's total and final rejection of the Jewish nation didn't occur until the Cross of course, ie, judgment of God, Matt.23:29, etc.

Old agreeing Jack
While Yeshua` (Jesus) DID come to the earth and grow up into a young man with a maximum age at death of 34 years old, He did NOT "turn ungodliness away from Jacob" at His first coming or first Advent. That prophecy is YET TO BE FULFILLED!

First, there's NO SUCH THING as a "true spiritual Israel!" There's that unfortunate usage of the word "spiritual," again! That word and how you use it so much in your theology is to blame for your amillennial, allegorical take on EVERYTHING in the Scriptures! It's not only the wrong word, but you have a TERRIBLE definition of that word in your vocabulary! (And, this should be a WARNING to all who abuse the word!) That word as it is often defined and used comes strictly from one's theological philosophy and NOT FROM THE SCRIPTURES!

That philosophical viewpoint stems from the MESS of theological confusion in the 200's A.D. and the adaptation and adoption of that viewpoint by the Roman church in the 300's. Thanks in large part to guys like Clement of Alexandria and Origen, his pupil, and of course, Augustine himself, the allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures was invented, and led much of the churches AWAY from a simple grammatical/historical interpretation of the Bible. It was NOT an improvement! It was an impairment of Christian theology/philosophy! Its adoption allowed for all sorts of subjective thinking to be introduced to theology, instead of the ONE, TRUE, OBJECTIVE meaning of the Scriptures, gathered through the history of the Bible and the grammar of the inspired, original languages!

Keep "Isra'el" the SAME "ISRA'EL" as throughout the REST of the Scriptures, and you will keep Paul's original meaning of the passage in Romans 9 through 11. This is the SAME ISRA'EL as David knew and governed! It's just GOOFY to twist the definition of "Isra'el" to mean anything else!

Joel 2:1-3:2
2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV
 

shturt678s

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Thank you for your response again....btw I knew exactly what keras meant...I just sinfully don't let others put me on the defensive.

No "spiritual Israel," I can accept this except what would you call "..For not all (derived) from Israel, (not all) these are Israel??? What would you call them, "Israel"? Isn't Israel used in two senses here? First in the sense to the physical Israel from which all the Jews originate, next as a reference to ??? Remember must comport with Rom.11:25, 26.

Old Jack
 

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(Ezek 21:25 KJV) And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

(Ezek 21:31 KJV) And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.

(Ezek 21:32 KJV) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.
 

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Shalom, tooldtocare.

tooldtocare said:
(Ezek 21:25 KJV) And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

(Ezek 21:31 KJV) And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.

(Ezek 21:32 KJV) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.
READ IN CONTEXT!!!

Ezekiel 21:1-32
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
5 That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
6 Sigh therefore, thou son of man, with the breaking of thy loins; and with bitterness sigh before their eyes.
7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD.
8 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Son of man, prophesy, and say, Thus saith the Lord; Say, A sword, a sword is sharpened, and also furbished:
10 It is sharpened to make a sore slaughter; it is furbished that it may glitter: should we then make mirth? it contemneth the rod of my son, as every tree.
11 And he hath give it to be furbished, that it may be handled: this sword is sharpened, and it is furbished, to give it into the hand of the slayer.
12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.
13 Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.
14 Thou therefore, son of man, prophesy, and smite thine hands together, and let the sword be doubled the third time, the sword of the slain: it is the sword of the great men that are slain, which entereth into their privy chambers.
15 I have set the point of the sword against all their gates, that their heart may faint, and their ruins be multiplied: ah! it is made bright, it is wrapped up for the slaughter.
16 Go thee one way or other, either on the right hand, or on the left, whithersoever thy face is set.
17 I will also smite mine hands together, and I will cause my fury to rest: I the LORD have said it.
18 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city.
20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced.
21 For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver.
22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint battering rams against the gates, to cast a mount, and to build a fort.
23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.
24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.
25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
26 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
28 And thou, son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, The sword, the sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering:
29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end.
30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity.
31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.
KJV


Do you see the Ammonites anywhere around? They would be the cousins of the Moabites, the children of the second son of Esau! Where are they today?

QUIT PULLING SCRIPTURES OUT OF CONTEXT! It is disruptive and deceptive and immorally dishonest!
 

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And the LORD said, "Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God." Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, "You are not my people," it shall be said to them, "Children of the living God." And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(Hos 1:9-11 ESV)

All of the chosen will be saved!
 
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shturt678 said:
Israel broke God's covenant at the Cross?
This is perhaps a side-issue, but I find it interesting...

I actually don't think Isreal broke any coventant when Jesus was crucified. The covenant they broke was a long time before that, and even before the "old covenant" was given to them.

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them" (Jer 31:31,32)

The covenant made with the "forefathers" of the people to whom Jeremaiah was speaking to was obviously the old covenant, which was given to them when he "lead them out of Egypt". But Ephesians 2:12 speaks of the "covenants of the promise". Was the old covenant built on a promise? It must have contained promises (Hebrews 8:6). But in any case, I don't think it was built around the promise given to Abraham, which that covenant, and the new covenant were built on.

With that in mind, notice that Jeremiah 31 tells us that the old covenant was a covenant given to them because they broke "my covenant". What covenant? It can't be the old covenant, because, reasonably, you can't give a covenant to someone who breaks the covenant you are giving them. It must have been the covenant of faith given to Abraham.

The people of Israel had the gospel preached to them just as we have (Heb 4:2), but since they did not combine the message they heard with faith, they "broke" the covenant that was previous to the old covenant.
 

Saint

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It wasn't Israel per say that crucified Christ, it was Judah and Benjamen primarily with maybe a scattering of the Ten Northern Tribes. Judah are the ones that returned from exile. The Ten Tribes did break the covenant and were scattered into the nations and have yet not returned. Judah in general kept the covenant which is why they were only in exile for 70 years and then returned to the land.
 

sojourner4Christ

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It is the classic dispensational false doctrine that God's "chosen people" are still the Jews through the promise to Abraham to bless his "seed" in Genesis 12.

Some accurately state that "God’s covenant of the land is based on his eternal character, not on Israel's own righteousness...." This is obviously straightforward and true. But then, deceivers would cleverly link the prior phrase concerning "the land" with their next statement "and he makes clear that even when they forsake his will, he will NEVER forget his covenant." The real question before us is, what covenant is it the LORD will "never forget?"

Let's look at 3 scriptures listed by many to support the false conclusion of the Rapture Cult (dispensationalism). In the Levitical passage, the LORD essentially says even though Israel has turned from him, "I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors..." (Leviticus 26:45). They then note the famous Jeremiah passage where God says "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts..." (Jeremiah 31:31, 32).

The Psalm they reference in support of their contention that the Jewish people are irrevocably the "chosen people" also refers to the New Covenant, which God will keep even "if his children forsake my law" (Psalm 89:30); but the Psalm in question plainly connects this eternal relationship with Israel to the Davidic Covenant in verse 35 - "Once I have sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David....my covenant will I not break, nor will I alter the thing that is gone out of my lips" (Psalm 89:35, 34).

This Davidic Covenant is ignored by these dispensational writers. They also omit the characteristics of it that are stated in the Psalms concerning the very person associated with the covenant in question - David. In II Samuel, God details the covenant with David:

"I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men; But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thy house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee; thy throne shall be established forever." - (II Sam 7:14-16)

This speaks of that same irrevocable covenant with Israel, but demonstrates that this "everlasting covenant" is to be associated with DAVID.

If you look for this "everlasting covenant" or this "New Covenant" where God says HE will always remember Israel, you'll find it is always associated with the Davidic Covenant. See Isaiah 9:7, 16:5, 22:22, 55:3; Jeremiah 17:25, 23:5, 30:9, 33:15, 33:22; Ezekial 34:23, 37:24; Hosea 3:5; Amos 9:11; Zechariah 12:10 and dozens more. This is why Jesus is called "the son of David" because he fulfills the promise that God made to "remember" Israel - through the New Covenant.

At no time was there NOT a remnant of Israel. When Christ says "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" we're all faced with a tough choice. If, as the Identity (read Gentile supremacists) crowd says, the "lost tribes" were up in England at that point, then Jesus sure came to the wrong place. On the other hand, if Israel was not present to have at least a remnant to receive Christ's new covenant fulfilling the promise to David, then he came at the wrong time. If you say the kingdom was "postponed" until the Jews could figure out the truth, you make God one who miscalculates. If you make these promises unfulfilled awaiting a latter day bloodline, you have circumvented the central message of the New Testament and re-instated the Jews as the "chosen people" (read Jewish supremacists) when the word of God plainly states "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you..." (Matthew 21:43) and the Christians are to become the "chosen" (I Peter 2:9).

The simple truth is the promise to REMEMBER Israel was in the eternal promise to the "house of David" from which Jesus Christ is descended. Because there were Israelites present - "the natural branches" that were not broken off (Romans 11:21) - a remnant of Israel was preserved before the Judaean led nation was decimated by the Romans - as a direct result of "the overspreading of abominations" (Daniel 9:27). That "abomination" was the resumption of animal sacrifice for the sins of Israel when the MESSIAH had already shed his priceless blood. There is no further fulfillment necessary. A subtle distinction is, this doesn't mean God can't yet choose to intervene with physical Israel - it means he is not required to in order to fulfill his Old Testament promises as they have already been fulfilled in the life of Yahshua Ha'Moshiach (Jesus the Messiah) - the "Son of David."

In short, God has already fulfilled his promise to remember Israel in that he "sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

If you look closely at those eternal promises to "remember" Israel, you'll find precise links to Christ's ministry. For instance, when Isaiah speaks to Israel about what occurs WHEN God establishes his everlasting covenant, he writes "Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come...he will come and save you. THEN the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. THEN shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing; for in the wilderness shall waters break out and streams in the desert." (Isaiah 35:5,6).

Jesus directly applies this prophecy to himself when John the Baptist's followers asked him if he was the one. He said go tell John "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them." (Matthew 11:4,5). In Ezekiel, God says the same thing he said in the few verses cited by the dispensational (read Jewish supremacist) writers - but the promise is directly related to the person of Jesus Christ. Ezekiel reminds Israel of the broken covenant, but adds "Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. And I will establish my covenant with thee: and thou shalt know that I am the Lord..." (Ezekiel 16).

Isaiah elaborates on the ONLY "everlasting covenant" to be made with ISRAEL: "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles...I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and GIVE THEE FOR A COVENANT OF THE PEOPLE, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." (Isaiah 42:1, 5, 7)

Now if Jesus himself stated that HE was the fulfillment of this prophecy, how then do Rapturists (dispensationalists) teach that God will still move AGAIN to redeem "Israel?" Is there yet another "new covenant" still to come? Of course not. Thus, to the people that teach that the Jewish people are still somehow preferred above all others by the Lord himself, I say the following: If you refuse to recognize the fulfillment of God's promise, and instead place the unbelievers (see I John 2:22) that have already had their 'last chance' in the role of the "elect" based upon their racial or ethnic heritage, haven't you now become the racist?

The point is, by refusing to recognize the sonship of the Christians as the inheritors of the promise as WE have been grafted in to the tree of Israel (not replacing Israel, but being appended to that construct), the dispensationalists are setting up the believers in Jesus for the final deception of the Antichrist. When he is installed in Jerusalem, he will be a professing Christian, and as the Jews accept his leadership, it will seem that "Israel" has now been converted to Christianity. At that point, the "Church" will transition from futurism to Post-Millennialism - i.e. it is now time to build God's kingdom on the earth - but that kingdom will be the kingdom of the Antichrist.

I'll say this again. Dispensationalism is a completely false doctrine, and the attempt to place national Israel into a pre-eminent position in God's plan is Antichrist through and through. At the risk of redundancy, I'll restate this another way. The doctrine of national Israel as the "chosen people" is Satan's gambit designed to lure evangelical Christianity into an Israel-first millennialism that will ultimately enthrone the religious syncretism that will vault the Antichrist to power in Jerusalem.

-- Brother Jim
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, tooldtocare and anyone reading.

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, tooldtocare.


READ IN CONTEXT!!!

Ezekiel 21:1-32
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,
3 And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.
4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:
5 That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
6 Sigh therefore, thou son of man, with the breaking of thy loins; and with bitterness sigh before their eyes.
7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD.
8 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Son of man, prophesy, and say, Thus saith the Lord; Say, A sword, a sword is sharpened, and also furbished:
10 It is sharpened to make a sore slaughter; it is furbished that it may glitter: should we then make mirth? it contemneth the rod of my son, as every tree.
11 And he hath give it to be furbished, that it may be handled: this sword is sharpened, and it is furbished, to give it into the hand of the slayer.
12 Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.
13 Because it is a trial, and what if the sword contemn even the rod? it shall be no more, saith the Lord GOD.
14 Thou therefore, son of man, prophesy, and smite thine hands together, and let the sword be doubled the third time, the sword of the slain: it is the sword of the great men that are slain, which entereth into their privy chambers.
15 I have set the point of the sword against all their gates, that their heart may faint, and their ruins be multiplied: ah! it is made bright, it is wrapped up for the slaughter.
16 Go thee one way or other, either on the right hand, or on the left, whithersoever thy face is set.
17 I will also smite mine hands together, and I will cause my fury to rest: I the LORD have said it.
18 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city.
20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced.
21 For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver.
22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint battering rams against the gates, to cast a mount, and to build a fort.
23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken.
24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand.
25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,
26 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
28 And thou, son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, The sword, the sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering:
29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end.
30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity.
31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.
KJV


Do you see the Ammonites anywhere around? They would be the cousins of the Moabites, the children of the second son of Esau! Where are they today?

QUIT PULLING SCRIPTURES OUT OF CONTEXT! It is disruptive and deceptive and immorally dishonest!
Nobody seems to have caught this, but Moav (Moab) and Ben-`Amiy (Benammi) were children of Lowt (Lot), not Esav (Esau). I felt I needed to set the record straight.