I am a Liberal

sojourner4Christ · Aug 5, 2014

Also, the government does force you to buy insurance. It's called Social Security. It's a retirement insurance. The government can tax you and spend it on things you don't support.

“The government” forces its subjects i.e. it forces YOU -- not me, as I am not one of its subjects.

[Paying no taxes] is illegal. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's",

You’ve judged in blind ignorance. Rather, the issue is, what thing(s) of Caesar’s are YOU partaking of that would require such a rendering? For me, I have no things of Caesar’s, therefore I owe Caesar NADA. Thank you, Lord!

...and respect the authority that God placed above you (including the civil government).

There’s that heretical doctrine again, spewed by mainstream evangelical Christianity that tells all to “obey the government, including the evil therein.” IT IS THE SOURCE OF YOUR PROBLEM, THE VERY NEXUS OF YOUR PREDICAMENT, AND THE REASON FOR YOUR 'I AM OF THE WORLD' OP.

God gives people the rulers they deserve. You will indeed receive what you deserve.

Because I am an American citizen. They founded the nation that I live in. Therefore, they are rightfully called the "founding fathers". I disagree with many of the things they believed, but I recognized their influence in the creation of the country that I live in.

Yep, it was your choice. And now, as a citizen of the country/world you live in, you will indeed render unto the god of that world i.e. Caesar...

A "born again follower of Jesus Christ" is a Christian. You're a Christian. It's not a label, its a category, and the boot fits. Whether you have faith or not is called "faithful" or "faithless". Those are two categories as well, and you fit into one of them (mutually exclusive). I'm assuming you are part of the faithful, but those are just my judgments and not the Lord's judgments.

I understand your problem (while not excusing your acts of frustration); being of the world, you cannot but label me a “Christian.” Conversely, among the brethren, I am known as a born again follower of Jesus Christ.

Also, "born again" is a popular phrase from...

The phrase "born again" is found in the Holy Bible.

Just because you're miserable, don't expect others to join you in your rot.

This Vale Of Tears · Aug 5, 2014

Tex said:
Yes, forced charity is not charity. But, the world is not charitable enough. Those that refuse to be charitable will be forced. Those that are charitable remain charitable because giving to the government which gives to those that need it (including military, infrastructure, etc.) is EXACTLY THE SAME as those that donate to Salvation Army which gives to those that need it. Taxes used charitably allows charitable people to know that pay taxes are charitable. The unwilling are not charitable because they do not will the charity.

Taxes are not extortion. I have no trove and this isn't based on any sort of covetousness, and telling me otherwise is to claim to know my heart.

I'm sure you're not trying to sound like a Nazi, it just comes naturally to you because you think you have the right to control other people and redeploy their possessions as you see fit. It's an evil sentiment that certainly doesn't come from the Lord. And claiming the world is "not charitable enough" is nothing more than the smug assumption of the statist and despot who uses heart strings to serve a sinister agenda. Control is what you people want, not charity, and using your own evaluation of how charitable people are as a standard by which to justify tyranny betrays the impious and ugly nature you have to fabricate any argument to support absolute government control.

I don't know what you are, but thank God Christians aren't like that at all.

River Jordan · Aug 5, 2014

I think what our conservative friends are forgetting with the whole "taxes to help the poor" thing is, we tried the "no taxes to help the poor/rely on charity" approach already, and it didn't work. Charity was woefully inadequate, and we had people literally dying in the streets...young, old, and everything in between. We as a society figured we could do better than that, so we started social programs.

And again, if liberalism is so terrible, why is it that in just about every measure of functionality (standard of living, personal happiness, lack of corruption, health, education), the socialist democracies in Europe are kicking our butts?

RANDOR · Aug 5, 2014

Europe kickin our butts?..............Huh?..........The europeans are coming out in droves and warning America...you are heading down the same path we are arriving at. SToP!!!!!!!!!!!!! this isn't working...Oh-my-God STOP!!!
Guess you haven't seen these things happening.

River Jordan · Aug 5, 2014

The US ranks 5th, behind Norway, Switzerland, Australia, and the Netherlands in the Human Development Index, which is a compilation of measurements of life expectancy, literacy, education, standards of living, and quality of life.

So if liberalism is soooooooooo terrible, why are socialist democracies doing better than us?

This Vale Of Tears · Aug 5, 2014

River Jordan said:
The US ranks 5th, behind Norway, Switzerland, Australia, and the Netherlands in the Human Development Index, which is a compilation of measurements of life expectancy, literacy, education, standards of living, and quality of life.

So if liberalism is soooooooooo terrible, why are socialist democracies doing better than us?

So forced redistribution of wealth is what makes these nations superior? Maybe our literacy, education, and standard of living averages have been BROUGHT DOWN BY ALL THE ILLEGAL ALIENS YOU PEOPLE WANT TO LET INTO THIS COUNTRY SO THEY CAN VOTE DEMOCRAT!

So until we have the same immigration policies as these enlightened European nations, and enforce our borders like they do, I don't even want to hear any comparisons.

River Jordan · Aug 5, 2014

This Vale Of Tears said:
So forced redistribution of wealth is what makes these nations superior? Maybe our literacy, education, and standard of living averages have been BROUGHT DOWN BY ALL THE ILLEGAL ALIENS YOU PEOPLE WANT TO LET INTO THIS COUNTRY SO THEY CAN VOTE DEMOCRAT!

So until we have the same immigration policies as these enlightened European nations, and enforce our borders like they do, I don't even want to hear any comparisons.

So the conservative talking point here is, "It's all the brown people's fault". Disgusting.

RANDOR · Aug 5, 2014

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeesh...it has nothing to do with brown ..white...black...purple........What Vale means is.....they are (our Government) won't close the borders....so they are called illegal aliens because of only one thing...they are entering America illegaly no matter what race they are......and ya know what River?.....they are coming FOR YOUR JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This Vale Of Tears · Aug 6, 2014

River Jordan said:
So the conservative talking point here is, "It's all the brown people's fault". Disgusting.

Leftists resort to hyper emotionalism and pulling the race card when their claims are proven illogical proving their arguments cannot withstand scrutiny.

The unchecked tide of illegal immigrants drives down the averages for the standard of living, literacy, income level, any many other factors. This is a fact that can't be waived away by your stupid race card. But more to the point, it defeats your argument that America can be compared to European nations on an even playing field because it can't. They enforce their borders and their immigration laws, therefore they have higher literacy and a higher standard of living because their averages aren't affected by millions of illegal immigrants.

"That's racist!" is just childish and makes you sound like a silly little girl.

Tex · Aug 7, 2014

sojourner4Christ said:
“The government” forces its subjects i.e. it forces YOU -- not me, as I am not one of its subjects.

[/QUOTE]
You are one of it's subjects. You live on the same earth. You're under what God has put you under, and he gave you a government. Jesus obeyed Roman law!!! Jesus obeyed Jewish law!!!

sojourner4Christ said:
You’ve judged in blind ignorance. Rather, the issue is, what thing(s) of Caesar’s are YOU partaking of that would require such a rendering? For me, I have no things of Caesar’s, therefore I owe Caesar NADA. Thank you, Lord!

Umm, no. Jesus used money. Caesar's money. And he paid taxes. Why do you love your money so much?

sojourner4Christ said:
There’s that heretical doctrine again, spewed by mainstream evangelical Christianity that tells all to “obey the government, including the evil therein.” IT IS THE SOURCE OF YOUR PROBLEM, THE VERY NEXUS OF YOUR PREDICAMENT, AND THE REASON FOR YOUR 'I AM OF THE WORLD' OP.

God gives people the rulers they deserve. You will indeed receive what you deserve.

There are two spiritual kingdoms. I hail from the City of God rather than the city of man. However, there is also a physical kingdom which we share. As a member of the City of God, I live in this physical kingdom honoring those in authority above me, including my secondary rulers (mom, dad, government, etc).

sojourner4Christ said:
Yep, it was your choice. And now, as a citizen of the country/world you live in, you will indeed render unto the god of that world i.e. Caesar...

Yes, I will, because God has placed authority over me. You, too, have authority over you that you are obviously proud to not honor. Repent.

sojourner4Christ said:
I understand your problem (while not excusing your acts of frustration); being of the world, you cannot but label me a “Christian.” Conversely, among the brethren, I am known as a born again follower of Jesus Christ.

Do not question my faith. You do not know my heart. You are being irrational, and I'm showing you why. Don't be angry because I correct you. If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't bother. Your phrases are nothing more than hot air. This branch of wisdom is called "semiotics". The phrase "Christian" and "born again follower of Jesus Christ" mean the same thing. Also, "the faithful" and "follower of the Way" mean the same thing as the other two also. It's just language, and it's very useful. You seem to be denying large bits of it. Don't. It is a gift of God.

sojourner4Christ said:
The phrase "born again" is found in the Holy Bible.

The phrase "computer" or "internet" or "english" or even "Holy Bible" is not found in the Holy Bible. You seem to be borderline idolatry with worshiping the book. The bible is not God. The bible is an infalible tool to bring people to salvation, yes, but even Paul remains relatable to people when he preaches, such as in Acts 17:16-34. Paul opened with philosophy, knew the Greek poets, etc.

sojourner4Christ said:
Just because you're miserable, don't expect others to join you in your rot.

I'm not miserable, I'm in the Lord. If I were truly lost and you truly right, God would criticize you for not being able to communicate with me and be a means of the Spirit. However, I am not lost, and I am simply have trouble communicating with a man who rejects specific phrases as if they were necessary rituals to acheive salvation.

This Vale Of Tears said:
I'm sure you're not trying to sound like a Nazi, it just comes naturally to you because you think you have the right to control other people and redeploy their possessions as you see fit. It's an evil sentiment that certainly doesn't come from the Lord. And claiming the world is "not charitable enough" is nothing more than the smug assumption of the statist and despot who uses heart strings to serve a sinister agenda. Control is what you people want, not charity, and using your own evaluation of how charitable people are as a standard by which to justify tyranny betrays the impious and ugly nature you have to fabricate any argument to support absolute government control.

I don't know what you are, but thank God Christians aren't like that at all.

Stop questioning my faith. You should not act that way. Is this how you treat a fellow believer?

I do not have that right to control other people and redeploy their possessions as I see fit. However, the government does because that's the authority the Lord gives governments. It's called taxes. All taxes are forms of taking control of other people's possessions and spending them how the government sees fit. Also, only in the last 250 years has there been any public say in where the money goes. Also, I may sound like a Nazi, but you sound like a racist when you say "Control is what you people want". I am subhuman?

I do not want control, I want charity. Do not call me a liar. Take my words. However, because it takes money to make money, I support more taxes those with higher income brackets. Because those with wealth do not give enough (althogh I'm sure some do), I support more taxes to the wealthy. Do you not understand the inequality of a flat tax? The rich become richer and the poor stay poor. There would be less opportunity in the nation many call "the nation of opportunity".

This Vale Of Tears said:
So forced redistribution of wealth is what makes these nations superior? Maybe our literacy, education, and standard of living averages have been BROUGHT DOWN BY ALL THE ILLEGAL ALIENS YOU PEOPLE WANT TO LET INTO THIS COUNTRY SO THEY CAN VOTE DEMOCRAT!

So until we have the same immigration policies as these enlightened European nations, and enforce our borders like they do, I don't even want to hear any comparisons.

Wow, you need to get over your prejudices. Europe doesn't have immigrants like we do because they don't have a Mexico stretching thousands of miles at their border. Minorities do statistically vote democrat, but again I'm not a democrat. Also, I don't support the welfare state. I'm a socialist, which is different. But, at the same time, I don't think I can just sit around while Mexico is run by murderous cartels and not allow refugees. I have compassion for them. I think America's responsibility is to the citizens of America, but it's not as if we're supposed to ignore the rest of the world.

This Vale Of Tears said:
Leftists resort to hyper emotionalism and pulling the race card when their claims are proven illogical proving their arguments cannot withstand scrutiny.

The unchecked tide of illegal immigrants drives down the averages for the standard of living, literacy, income level, any many other factors. This is a fact that can't be waived away by your stupid race card. But more to the point, it defeats your argument that America can be compared to European nations on an even playing field because it can't. They enforce their borders and their immigration laws, therefore they have higher literacy and a higher standard of living because their averages aren't affected by millions of illegal immigrants.

"That's racist!" is just childish and makes you sound like a silly little girl.

I have not once had any sort of emotionalism here nor pulled the race card. Do not be like a racist and lump all "leftists" together. It's just childish and makes you sound like a silly little girl.

And if America is only 5th, what do I care? I got to help a bunch of poor, illiterate people. I really, really don't think politics is to "win first place", especially if you can't love you neighbor.

aspen · Aug 7, 2014

Tex, Vale is not rational when it comes to politics. he has already labeled you and you are now saddled with all the crazy that comes with it, along with the frothing at the mouth, demonizing, rightest spin

This Vale Of Tears · Aug 7, 2014

aspen said:
Tex, Vale is not rational when it comes to politics. he has already labeled you and you are now saddled with all the crazy that comes with it, along with the frothing at the mouth, demonizing, rightest spin

And the funny thing is, I love you, brother in the Holy Faith! I'm sure that point gets lost when I'm trying to bite off your rhetorical head.

River Jordan · Aug 7, 2014

This Vale Of Tears said:
Leftists resort to hyper emotionalism and pulling the race card when their claims are proven illogical proving their arguments cannot withstand scrutiny.

The unchecked tide of illegal immigrants drives down the averages for the standard of living, literacy, income level, any many other factors. This is a fact that can't be waived away by your stupid race card. But more to the point, it defeats your argument that America can be compared to European nations on an even playing field because it can't. They enforce their borders and their immigration laws, therefore they have higher literacy and a higher standard of living because their averages aren't affected by millions of illegal immigrants.

"That's racist!" is just childish and makes you sound like a silly little girl.

Oh right....you must have been griping about all those white illegal immigrants that conservatives are usually so upset about.

This Vale Of Tears · Aug 7, 2014

River Jordan said:
Oh right....you must have been griping about all those white illegal immigrants that conservatives are usually so upset about.

You're all illegal immigrants to me. This was our land and it was taken from us by your people. But I've gotten over that because, quite frankly, it happened 150 years ago.

But aside from that, it's you racists on the Left who are so race obsessed that you think one's brown skin is an excuse for entering the country illegally and any opposition to their illegal activities is somehow racist. You've pulled the race card so much that Americans are just getting sick of hearing it, so stop with your racist bigotry and you'll see the same issue the rest of us see, lawlessness versus having a nation that enforces its laws. When you are no longer blinded by Satan, you'll begin to see things as they really are.

River Jordan · Aug 7, 2014

Ok then, exactly what group of "illegal immigrants" do you think are tearing our country down? CLICK HERE to see the breakdown by country of origin.

This Vale Of Tears · Aug 7, 2014

River Jordan said:
Ok then, exactly what group of "illegal immigrants" do you think are tearing our country down? CLICK HERE to see the breakdown by country of origin.

All of them. I'm not racist as you clearly are.

River Jordan · Aug 7, 2014

LOL! I know you are, but what am I?

Well done VOT.

Tex · Aug 7, 2014

This Vale Of Tears said:
You're all illegal immigrants to me. This was our land and it was taken from us by your people. But I've gotten over that because, quite frankly, it happened 150 years ago.

But aside from that, it's you racists on the Left who are so race obsessed that you think one's brown skin is an excuse for entering the country illegally and any opposition to their illegal activities is somehow racist. You've pulled the race card so much that Americans are just getting sick of hearing it, so stop with your racist bigotry and you'll see the same issue the rest of us see, lawlessness versus having a nation that enforces its laws. When you are no longer blinded by Satan, you'll begin to see things as they really are.

I don't mind the immigration, but I want all the paperwork to go through smoothly before they are received as an American. So no voting (I'm pro-voter ID, btw), no minimum wage, no entitlements, and if they're already here, they're still taxed because they use our infrastructure and our job market. This includes immigrants from the UK, Canada, Mexico, China, etc.

This Vale Of Tears · Aug 7, 2014

Tex said:
I don't mind the immigration, but I want all the paperwork to go through smoothly before they are received as an American. So no voting (I'm pro-voter ID, btw), no minimum wage, no entitlements, and if they're already here, they're still taxed because they use our infrastructure and our job market. This includes immigrants from the UK, Canada, Mexico, China, etc.

Crud...now you sound like a conservative! Just when you think you got a fella all figured out....

sojourner4Christ · Aug 8, 2014

Hey Tex! It is so good to hear back from you on this! And it looks like you put some serious thought into your reply, no less.

Your OP and subsequent posts cry out for justice. You know something is not quite right. You’re in a hurt locker, you don’t know how you got there, and you want to get out -- like all of us, you want to be set free.

Often it isn’t until one gets truly angry that he finally becomes receptive to the possibility that he may have been residing in lies, and that those lies are the source of his frustration and bondage.

When Jesus got angry, he didn’t sin; he took care of business, literally! He tossed the bankers out of the temple.

Also, if anyone reading this possesses the desire to be set free from worldly bondage, know that it is indeed possible, even easy, via the truth. BTW, professing to being a born again follower of Jesus Christ is no guarantee that you will enjoy liberty in this sick world of Caesar’s; action is required.

Now, Tex, it takes a great deal of time and effort to respond properly in these types of venues. But since you took the time with your previous reply to me, I too will take the time now.

We’ve already explained, with the word of God, why voting is unscriptural (post #48). No one has rebutted that. Although you’ve said that you’re about to refuse to vote on a particular upcoming issue, you’re still giving life to that dead thing, that dead image i.e. Caesar’s voter franchise. You must completely cease partaking of the wicked thing.

There are many others reading these posts, and there are also three that bear record in heaven (1 John 5:7), so we must be forthright in our actions and fearless concerning any consequences.

Your conditioning will kick in and you will be heavily tempted to simply bail and run when the truth is put before you. Pray about it now, before you read any further, that the scales would be removed from your eyes, and that the truth would shine unto you. Jesus came to set the captives free. Like the lame man situated for OVER 30 YEARS at the healing pools at Bethesda (John chap. 5), he was “comfortably resigned” to his infirmity, else Jesus would not have asked him if he truly wanted to be healed.

And so, reader, “Do you want to be healed? Do you want to be set free?”

If not, stop reading now and go do something less challenging (as the TV remote and creamed coffee come to mind). For the others, read on.

I'm going to touch on only a couple of things in your reply, Tex, and in a topical way; otherwise, we'd be here all night. If you want more specific info, including documentation, just ask.

About me: I don't pay taxes, neither do I owe any man anything but love. I am not a citizen of any earthly country, not a resident, not any of those legal person-alities. I am married and have three daughters -- all "unpapered," i.e. no birth cert's, etc. They are not citizens of any earthly country; they are sovereign in Christ. Caesar (i.e. man's ungodly government) cannot touch them, although the spirit behind them would kill us (and you). My family lives, moves, and has its being in Christ -- not in Caesar.

sojourner4Christ: “The government” forces its subjects i.e. it forces YOU -- not me, as I am not one of its subjects.

Tex: You are one of it's subjects. You live on the same earth. You're under what God has put you under...

No, ‘you are under whatever law you have chosen to put yourself under.’ The choice is yours. But beware, for there is a form of obedience that leads to death:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16)

Tex, your present situation is killing you (and the majority reading this). For example, the USA is going down the tubes RIGHT NOW. No one would knowingly sign on for a program that leads to bondage and death, so DECEPTION must necessarily be employed...

... and he gave you a government. Jesus obeyed Roman law!!! Jesus obeyed Jewish law!!!

Also, God did not ‘give us a government.’ He IS the government!

Compromising with temporal powers can never lead to redemption. Most "Christians" have accepted the unrighteous code of the State, instead of insisting that the State follow the Laws of Almighty God. There is a world of difference between Law and force. The kingdoms of this world use force, for there is no love in what they do, whereas the kingdom of God uses Law, for love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8).

There is only one lawgiver (James 4:12). This one lawgiver is the Lord (Isaiah 33:22). Man does not have authority to make laws, but only the authority to make ‘ordinances’ which enforce Laws already in existence, which are the Laws of God. To obey the so-called ‘laws’ conjured up by the worldly governing authorities is to set aside the gospel of our Lord, and place oneself under a separate government, other than his.

Bondmen of Christ are not citizens of any country on this earth, our citizenship is in heaven, and so our first loyalty is to God, not "our" country (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20). Ours is a better, heavenly country (Hebrews 11:16).

Throughout the scripture, governments have always been the leader in bringing people to sin (Daniel 3:4-6, 1 Kings 12:25:33; 14:21-24, 2 Kings 13:2; 17:21; 21:11,16, 2 Chronicles 21:6,11-13, Isaiah 9:16). God condemned Israel for wanting to be ruled like other nations, by a human king (1 Samuel 8:4-5,20). When they chose to be ruled by a human leader, our Father considered that to be a rejection of himself because he would not then reign over them (1 Samuel 8:7; 10:19). The people later realized their sin against God when they asked to be ruled by a human government (1 Samuel 12:19). Notice their kings never had any power to make new laws; nor did their best and wisest of kings make any, as in the cases of David and Solomon. And when a return to the ways of the Lord was made among them, as by Hezekiah and Josiah, it was not by making any new regulations, but by putting the original Law into execution; and by directing and requiring of the judges, and other officers, to act according to that Law.

To serve an earthly king, or his government, is to serve other gods (1 Samuel 8:8-9), which is violating the First Commandment (Exodus 20:3). It is wickedness and a sin to ask to be ruled by a human government instead of God (1 Samuel 12:17-19). Our Father condemned Israel for following the statutes of their disobedient government (2 Kings 17:7-8). He rejected those who followed the statutes of governments instead of his Commandments (2 Kings 17:19-20). He specifically said not to follow the ordinances of earthly governments, but to follow his laws, ordinances, and statutes instead (Leviticus 18:1-5). Throughout the history of Israel, the majority of the kings of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord (1 Kings 11:4-9, 2 Kings 8:18), which shows that most rulers and governments are corrupt because of their carnal nature (Romans 8:7). The Jews eventually chose king Caesar over King Jesus (John 19:15). Those who do the same are just like them.

The whole duty of man is to live by God's commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13), not man's commandments which turn from the Truth (Mark 7:7, Colossians 2:20-22, Titus 1:14). What duty is there to a servant of Christ except to fulfil God's Law (Romans 13:8)? When we pray, we pray to do our Father’s Will, not man’s will (Matthew 6:10, Luke 11:2). God rewards those who place his Laws above man-made laws (Exodus 1:17,20). We are even instructed to avoid going to courts of law before the unjust and unbelievers (1 Corinthians 6:1-8). How incredible that the just would go before the unjust for justice! Therein no blessings are found:

Psalms 1:1, "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly."

The kings and rulers of the earth are against the Lord, and against his anointed (Psalm 2:2). Governments frame mischief and sin through their laws:

Psalms 94:20, "Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?"

Isaiah 10:1-2, "Woe unto them that prescribe grievous laws and take away the right from the poor."

When a government is ungodly, and people trust in that government, then God will punish those who trust in that government and obey their laws (Jeremiah 15:4; 46:25, 2 Kings 21:11-12, Isaiah 9:16, Ezekiel 11:10-12, Micah 6:13,16). The people will be cursed for trusting in man (Jeremiah 17:5, Hosea 10:13). It is better to trust in the Lord, than to put confidence in man and governments (Psalm 118:8-9). We are told not to put our trust in human governments (Psalm 146:3). We are commanded to "turn away" from those with certain characteristics (2 Timothy 3:2-5), and governing authorities possess most of these said characteristics! Governing authorities are "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away" (2 Timothy 3:5). So we are to turn away from governing authorities with these characteristics. They proclaim their own power (force), which becomes a 'law' unto itself. The law is made for evil-doers, not for the righteous (1 Timothy 1:9-10). Therefore, we are to obey God's Law, and whatever laws that man creates are irrelevant to us.

God always has, and continues to, use ungodly governments as his rod of correction. And right now, that's why you are hurting.

Esther 3:8, "And Haman (the highest prince in the kingdom of the Medes and the Persians) said unto king Ahasuerus (the king of the Medes and the Persians who reigned from India to Ethiopia), There is a certain people (people who were obedient to God's Laws) scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king's laws..."

As we can see, God's children were following God's Law, which were diverse from the government's law, and his children did not keep the government's law! When one reads the book of Esther, one will see how God protected his children when they followed his law and disregarded the government's law. One cannot obey both laws, because one cannot serve two masters.

sojourner4Christ: You’ve judged in blind ignorance. Rather, the issue is, what thing(s) of Caesar’s are YOU partaking of that would require such a rendering? For me, I have no things of Caesar’s, therefore I owe Caesar NADA. Thank you, Lord!

Tex: Umm, no. Jesus used money. Caesar's money. And he paid taxes. Why do you love your money so much?

Take a deep breath and pray for discernment now. The enemy certainly does not want you to learn the following.

We have been taught that we must obey even ungodly governments, and to help them by paying taxes, but scripture says, "...Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD" (2 Chronicles 19:2).

The scripture says it is evil in the sight of the Lord for governments to tax the land (2 Kings 23:35-37). The earth does not belong to the government, this earth belongs to God (Exodus 19:5, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 44:24, 2 Corinthians 5:18). Land tax is claiming ownership over God’s earth. It is literally a dethronement of God and an enthronement of the State. The State is claiming to be god by claiming control and ownership of land. The State is literally trying to be god walking the earth. God has never given his earth to the government to tax, pollute, or destroy (1 Kings 21:1-16).

The State's claim of "eminent domain" is in direct conflict with the Word of God:

Ezekiel 46:18, "Moreover the prince [government] shall not take of the people's inheritance by oppression, to thrust them out of their possession; but he shall give his sons inheritance out of his own possession: that my people be not scattered every man from his possession."

Scripture also says it is not lawful for governments to impose a tax upon the servants of God (Ezra 7:24). Thus, it is not lawful to impose tax upon the servants of Christ. But those servants must be true servants. If one seeks to make merchandise of his creation, they will be taxed. The slothful are under taxes (Proverbs 12:24). We also see that the Levites were not taxed or conscripted for military purpose (Numbers 1:45-54; Numbers 18. Note especially verse 24). The tithe was to go to the Levites (Deuteronomy 14:27-29; Joshua 21). God is sovereign; he cannot be taxed.

Abram paid tithes of all to Melchizdek, King of Salem, and refused the spoils he was offered from the King of Sodom. It is clear that it was the result of a solemn oath that Abram had made to God. "Abram said to the King of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, that I will not take anything that is thine, lest thou shouldst say, I have made Abram rich" (Genesis 14:22,23).

Abram would not accept the commercial benefits of the heathen, because he knew the resulting duties attached thereto. Instead, he chose to honor the Lord. The people of God are not to finance the government (through heathen taxation); nor is the government to finance the people of God (through benefits such as social security, etc.). A State-financed church is a State controlled church. He who accepts a benefit from the State accepts the sovereignty and authority of the State, and thus is subject to and will serve the State.

[Jesus] paid taxes...

No, he did not. 'Jesus paid taxes' is a popular lie taught throughout evangelical Christianity. Religion has always been the tool of choice of tyrants to control the sheeple.

In fact, Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial (Luke 23:2). Notice these were not false witnesses who accused Jesus of not paying taxes, because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59). Where did Jesus forbid to pay taxes to Caesar?

In Mark 12:13-17, Jesus was asked if it was lawful to give taxes to Caesar or not. A silver coin, with Caesar's inscription on it, was shown to Christ. In this example, the Lord's answer requires everyone to make the determination as to what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God;

Mark 12:17"...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's..."

Who did this silver coin belong to? Since the Scripture says, "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai 2:8), that means that the silver coin shown to Jesus belonged to God. However, those who live, move, and have their being in the image of Caesar, as the disciples of the Pharisees did, will believe this coin belongs to Caesar instead. We are not to be deluded by the image of Caesar, but built-up in the image of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:7; 15:49, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Colossians 3:10).

Others cry, “What about Matthew 17:24-27?”:

And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Let's break this passage down.

Verse 24: The tax collector asked Simon Peter if Jesus paid taxes.
Verse 25: Peter said, "yes". But "Jesus prevented" Peter from paying the tax. Why did Jesus prevent Peter from paying taxes?
Verse 26: Jesus said "Then are the children free" from paying taxes. This is why, because we are now free. But we must not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness.
Verse 27: However, to avoid "offending" this tax collector (since, as was the habit of Peter, he opened his mouth too soon without really thinking and obligated Jesus by his statement that Jesus did pay taxes), Jesus told Peter to cast a hook into the sea, and catch a fish, and take out money from its mouth and pay it.

Even though Jesus provided a coin to Simon for this tax, it was to avoid "offending" the collector, and because Peter rashly agreed to pay it, not because we are bound to pay taxes by Law. Jesus made the point to stress that the children are free from taxes. But notice, Simon Peter and Jesus did not give him any of their own money, but that which came from the fish! It is interesting to note that Peter was a commercial fisherman (a fisher of fish) before being called to be an apostle of Christ (a fisher of men), and when Peter opened his mouth before thinking (as he often did), Christ basically chastised him by having Peter return to his old life to pay his debt! He had to be a fisher of fish to catch that fish with the coin in its mouth. Thus, the lesson for us is: When you join yourself to the world, and make obligations to the world, you must become part of the world again to meet those obligations.

Additionally, Jesus could not have fulfilled prophecy if he was to go to prison, which might have happened if he didn't pay that tax after Peter "volunteered" for him. It was not his time to go to prison yet. Likewise, Jesus could have called twelve legions of angels to his rescue, but because the scriptures would not have been fulfilled if he did, he refrained from doing that act (Matthew 26:53-54). Jesus taught that we are free from paying taxes if we are children of the king (Matthew 17:24-26), meaning the children of King Jesus (Acts 17:7, 1 Timothy 1:17).

Now, for clarification, if a government is acting strictly as a minister of God, then it is lawful to pay taxes to that government (Romans 13:6), because that "silver coin" which belongs to God also belongs to God's ministers, as they are acting in his name and doing his will. However, if a government is not a minister of God, then there is no duty to give taxes to it.

So now we know that Jesus did not ‘pay taxes.’ Rather, Jesus cleverly provided a coin to Simon Peter with which to satisfy Simon’s foolishly incurred legal obligation and thus teach him (and us) a lesson.

BTW, a license is just another form of taxation. By requiring a license, the State is claiming complete control and ownership over a disciple’s life. The term "license" is from the word "licentious", which means "morally unrestrained, disregarding rules, lascivious". These same words describe human governments today. In demanding licensure from true bondmen of Christ, the State is asking that we render to it the submission and tribute that scripture requires us to give to God alone.

To partake of this kind of government and pay the taxes due therefrom is to support a government bent on destroying God's dominion.

sojourner4Christ: There’s that heretical doctrine again, spewed by mainstream evangelical Christianity that tells all to “obey the government, including the evil therein.” IT IS THE SOURCE OF YOUR PROBLEM, THE VERY NEXUS OF YOUR PREDICAMENT, AND THE REASON FOR YOUR 'I AM OF THE WORLD' OP.
God gives people the rulers they deserve. You will indeed receive what you deserve.

Tex: There are two spiritual kingdoms. I hail from the City of God rather than the city of man.

No, you don’t, and you are in bondage because of it. This is why you’re angry and are lashing out with silly political/worldly rhetoric that only drives you deeper into that worldly bondage. Wouldn’t it be awesome to be truly free from that image of the beast?

Presently, you “hail from” Caesar’s world, because you speak as one of the world and have borne no evidence to the contrary. In fact, you carry the evidence of your allegiance to the world in spades (e.g. State-issued birth certificate, driver license, voter registration card, social security card, etc. etc.. But do not despair, as there is a way out.)

To be blunt about it, every bondman of Christ is presumed to be acting in the mode and character of a pagan (i.e., in commerce) because he has borne or given no evidence to the contrary. Is this not bearing false witness? In other words, when a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world. These Christians honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from Him (Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6).

sojourner4Christ: I understand your problem (while not excusing your acts of frustration); being of the world, you cannot but label me a “Christian.” Conversely, among the brethren, I am known as a born again follower of Jesus Christ.

Tex: Do not question my faith. You do not know my heart.

This is not about faith; it’s about DOING what God said to DO -- not with mere lip service -- but actually performing due diligence.

You are being irrational, and I'm showing you why. Don't be angry because I correct you. If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't bother.

I’m not “angry,” and you haven’t “corrected” anyone. Thus far, you’ve offered nothing but worldly bondage loops, to all of us. That can change, Tex, and for the better. It’s up to you to WANT to be set free.

...even Paul remains relatable to people when he preaches, such as in Acts 17:16-34. Paul opened with philosophy, knew the Greek poets, etc.

Which Bible are you reading from??? Paul did NOT spew philosophy. In fact, we are warned NOT to spew such vain deceitful worldly traditions because others will DESTROY (i.e. spoil) us for it:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Col. 2:8)

If your reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because you cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

God in his sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

Matthew 13:44, “The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”

If you'd like to know more about walking in true liberty and its peaceful fruit, just ask and we can chat it up. Thanks again for responding, Tex.

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