The Great Tribulation

Trekson · Aug 8, 2014

Why should the church endure the great tribulation?

I believe I can answer this question through God's word. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." I think it's safe to assume that the whole bible is God's message to the church in one way or another via 2 Tim. 3:16 - “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV)

A serious believer in a pre-trib rapture might pose this question: What is the purpose of the rapture, if not to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come?

My reply would be that this is the wrong question to ask. As a pre-wrath believer, I agree that the main reason for the rapture is to take us away from God's wrath, which is not for the church according to 1 Thess. 5:9 - “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” As stated earlier, I believe His wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. I think a better question the church of God should ask themselves is: Why must the church endure the great tribulation?

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the book of Job. You know the story, he was the richest man on earth yet he lost everything, family, house, possessions, etc. Similar to some of the losses we may face as believers in the midst of the great tribulation. He questions God about the unfairness and seeming injustice of all that befell him. Chapters 38-41 record God's answer to Job. But what brought about his calamity in the first place?

Job 1:8-11
- Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan re-plied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." (NIV)

To put it in a nutshell, Satan was testing Job's faith and God allowed it. During the great trib, Satan is again given permission to test our faith and this time he is allowed to harm our bodies and kill some of us! Why? Because now we are in Christ and our enemy; death, has been triumphed over through Jesus Christ.

Why must the church endure the great tribulation?
James 1:2-4 - "
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (NIV)
Matt. 13:18-22
- "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. (NIV)

The 70th week will wean out those for whom Christianity is convenient or for those who use it as a means of good social standing. We will be purified as though with fire.
1 Peter 1:5-7
- ..."who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (NIV)

We must also remember these words of Peter as well. They are of utmost importance.
1 Peter 4:12-19
- "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." (NIV)

There are many christians in the world that are suffering this very minute. When the great trib comes among them it will be like "business as usual", but for the other places in the world where christians have become lazy and complacent, it will be a time of severe testing. You may offer up Noah and Lot as examples of people who were rescued from tribulation but keep in mind they did not leave the earth. I offer up Job as an example that God does and will test his people through trials and tribulations, to wean out those who are christians in word only because it has not reached their heart.

A person may believe that God only does things involving christians for a purpose! His purpose in allowing christians to go through some of the 70th week is to provide a vast witness for Him. Some scholars believe the 144,000 of Rev. 7 fulfill that purpose but I disagree. They are sealed and protected and if they did witness (which scripture never says they do), just preaching the word will not be enough. The world has been preached to for millennia. What greater testimony can God have then people who are willing to lay down their lives for their Lord and Savior, The 144,000 will never become martyrs but as God is ending the world as we know it, in a final time of wrath, I think it only logical that prior to His wrath, God will show the world through the greater witness of martyrdom and other efforts of the church that He is real and that His Son Jesus is Lord of All!

However, not all will be martyrs! Some of us will just give up our luxuries and the simple things like a roof over our head and food in our stomach because we will refuse to accept the mark of the beast that will allow us those simples pleasures. Our faith will be in God to provide for us and He will!! Our insanity (from the world's point of view) will hit the news media big time. We will be talked about all over the world, our opportunity to witness will be sure. Some will fail, but hopefully, most of us won't and when judgment day comes for those who witness our seeming insanity because of our faith, it is our job to make sure they won't have an excuse when they stand before God! One final thought. When the church is persecuted and going through hard times, the power of the Holy Spirit is made more manifest and miracles will be witnessed around the world as well. So then it can be truly stated, "When the gates of hell came down to earth, they did not prevail against us!!" Something that could not be said if we were raptured prior to the 70th week!
A little about the timing of the great tribulation
Let’s see if we can narrow down the timing of the great trib. Matt. 24:21 - “For then shall be great tribulation…” This means that the great trib. happens after the events of vs. 4-20, including vs. 15, which has the abomination of desolation, which we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Now what does the following vs. 22 say, “...for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened“. This ties in the fact that the great trib. is affecting believers, not the world in general.
Mark 13:19 & 20 echoes this exact order, but uses the term affliction. Luke 21:22 does as well, using the term vengeance and shows in vs. 28, "And when all these things begin to come to pass, (everything mentioned in the previous verses) then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh." (KJV) (words in parenthesis mine) This great tribulation upon believers is the result of Satan's wrath as pictured in Rev. 12:17 - “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman (believing Israel) and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (the church).” (NIV)

Here’s a theory I developed on why the new testament writers seemed to believe Christ’s return was imminent. Paul and other bible authors, in their writings, wrote as if Christ would return in their lifetime. (1 Thess. 4:15, note the word we) Now with that in mind read 1 Thess. 3: 3&4, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass and ye know." (KJV)

I believe that Paul felt they were at the beginning of sorrows point (the first 3 1/2 yr. segment) of Daniel's 70th week and his followers did as well, hence the need for Paul to reassure them that that day (rapture/resurrection) would not occur until after the man of lawlessness is revealed at the mid-point of the 70th week when the a/c sits on the throne and declares himself God and sets up the abomination of desolation.

There is one main reason why Paul and the early church thought Christ would return in their lifetime and that is because many of the signs that He told them about in the Olivet Discourse seemed to be happening. There was a great famine in the Jerusalem area, earthquakes had happened in diverse areas, Christians were being put to death and jailed because of their beliefs, and Jerusalem was soon to be under the Roman siege of A.D. 70. Paul in the next verse, describes how we’ll know when that event will occur, which we know takes place at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week.

Now we come to Rev. 7:9. This great multitude suddenly appears in heaven. They are identified in vs. 14 as "they which came out of great tribulation." Again confirming the great trib is upon believers and not the world in general. You have to go with the flow of all the scriptures, not just a select few. Nowhere in scripture does it say that tribulation or great tribulation will last seven years. Logically, there is only one conclusion and that is this multitude represents the rapture.

If it is not the rapture, then this also develops a couple of problems for the pre-trib rapture theory. One, is that there must be a second rapture that brings these folks to heaven at the same time before the conclusion of the rest of Revelations, which is not alluded to anywhere in scripture.
The other is, you can't have both a great apostasy and a great revival happening at the same time. Pre-trib rapturists believe that as a result of missing the rapture there will be a great revival that will sweep across the world but scripture never speaks of this. The scriptures do tell us that there will be a great falling away. 2 Thess. 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…“ (KJV) This is called the apostasy from the Greek word “apostasia“. My dictionary defines apostasy as, “the abandonment of a former allegiance as in turning away from one’s religious faith. This apostasy will be the result of many believers who feel that they have been misled or lied to by their pastors because they haven’t been raptured or rescued from these hard times as they had always been taught. They will begin to doubt all the other teachings and in the midst of trials and tribulations will fall away from the truth as the parable of the sower explains to us in Matt. 4.
Paul also says in 2 Thess. 2:11&12 - “God will send a delusion so that mankind will believe the lie, that they might be damned who believed not the truth” (NIV).

This theory of a second chance for a separate group of tribulation saints is not scriptural, especially a multi-national group so large they can't be numbered.

To conclude, the Great Tribulation is upon believers as explained in 1 Peter 1:5-7, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (the real meaning of Rev. 3:10) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith-of greater worth then gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (KJV)

This fact is also the basis of the wheat and tares parable. We will be sifted together and only the true spotless body of Christ will emerge from the great tribulation "...having washed our robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14 NIV)

keras · Aug 8, 2014

Your article, Trekson, is generally correct. Christians will be tested, make no mistake about that.
Your analysis of Rev 7:9 & 14 is incorrect. In verse 9 there is no mention that the 'vast multitude' is in heaven. In fact, from Rev 14:1, we see they are in Jerusalem and Jesus selects the 144,000 from them.
Rev 7:14 says 'come out of the great tribulation' KJV, NIV. but my REB says: 'great ordeal'. This ordeal, trib, disaster; call it what you will, is referring to the Sixth Seal, as the sequence proves. Don't mess with the Revelation scripture, or you invoke the curse of Rev 22:19.
So what will happen, is the next event; the Sixth Seal, a disaster that comes upon all the world, Luke 21:35, Isaiah 66:15-16 and many other prophesies that detail this forthcoming reset of civilization.
Then the holy Land is regenerated, Isaiah 35:1-7 and the Lord's people will go to live there. Isaiah 35:8-10
They will 'be a light to the nations' and will send out 144,000 missionaries, Isaiah 66:19, Isaiah 49:6, to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Retrobyter · Aug 8, 2014

Shabbat shalom, Trekson.

Actually, that is the wrong reason for the Rapture proper. The Rapture itself (just the resurrection/transformation and the snatching away to the sky found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, not the additional theory that is often associated with the transformation) has a different purpose. It is NOT "to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come." It is to ASSEMBLE us together as Yeshua`s army! Just as the reason for the Messiah's return is to SAVE Isra'el from annihilation - to RESCUE them from their enemies, namely the surrounding countries whose goal and primary intent is to "drive Isra'el into the sea," so the reason for our Rapture after being resurrected and/or transformed is to AID the Messiah in that endeavor! Time is of the essence, and speed is required because the threat will be imminent! Thus, He will send out His messengers (Greek: aggeloi transliterated into "angels") to assemble us and provide a rapid transit system to transport us to the Middle East in a hurry. We SHALL meet our Master in the air, but we shall then IMMEDIATELY descend with Him to aid His people - His countrymen - His literal FAMILY - as He rescues them from death and establishes Himself as their King!

Trekson · Aug 9, 2014

Hi Retro, Wow! I really appreciate the short reply and not a single bible verse mentioned! Amazing

I know we really don't see eye-to-eye most of the time but that's mostly because you come from a direction that I don't agree with regarding Israel.

I don't believe I implied rescue from "tribulation". Wrath yes, trib no. In reality, Christ doesn't "need" us to be His army. He has a multitude of angels at His disposal. That doesn't mean I don't think we are, just that Rev.19:14 doesn't really clarify one way or the other. Rev. 19:14 - "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Before you give me a language lesson, let me give it a shot.
Gr4753 armies = a body of troops, still not definitive. Gr3772 heaven = (as the abode of God). Now if I remember right, a couple of years ago when we were having some discussions, you didn't believe the church goes to heaven. So from your point of view, these must be angels as they come from heaven, not the "sky" in general. From my pov seeing as I believe the church is in heaven undergoing the Bema Seat judgment, the armies could be either or both. I don't think their identity really matters, what matters is Christ wins!

shturt678s · Aug 9, 2014

Thank you folks for caring!

Only a head's up again, ie, IThess.5:9, "....did not appoint us unto wrath..." Contextually and grammatically this pictures the consummation at the forthcoming "1" Parousia at the end of time without a ahead of time "Rapture."

Rev. chapters 8 & 9 are the main visions in Revelation, ie, our Lord's preliminary judgments of His righteous wrath even at this very moment...miraculous preliminary judgments. We are nearing the end of our Lord's wrath with the personal loosing of Satan at Rev.20:7.

God's wrath in the narrow sense, IThess.5:9. God's wrath in the wide sense, Rev. chapters 8 & 9.

Old Jack's opinion

Trekson · Aug 9, 2014

Hi Jack, I believe the wrath of God is in two parts. The wrath of the Lamb, Rev. 6:16 which are the trumpet judgments and the wrath of God, Rev. 16:1 which are the vial judgments, neither have begun yet.

shturt678s · Aug 9, 2014

Trekson said:
Hi Jack, I believe the wrath of God is in two parts. The wrath of the Lamb, Rev. 6:16 which are the trumpet judgments and the wrath of God, Rev. 16:1 which are the vial judgments, neither have begun yet.

Brother Trekson, thank you for your response again!

Going to have to check with my thread attorney brother RANDOR if and before I respond this time as due to my uncomfortable and inconvenient responses not ever going to get those 5 golden stars after my name, ie, I was a fighting terror in grade school, and never even received one of them golden stars even when I tried...banking on still have a chance???

Old Jack stating the 5th for now

Retrobyter · Aug 10, 2014

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
...In reality, Christ doesn't "need" us to be His army. He has a multitude of angels at His disposal. That doesn't mean I don't think we are, just that Rev.19:14 doesn't really clarify one way or the other. Rev. 19:14 - "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Before you give me a language lesson, let me give it a shot.
Gr4753 armies = a body of troops, still not definitive. Gr3772 heaven = (as the abode of God). Now if I remember right, a couple of years ago when we were having some discussions, you didn't believe the church goes to heaven. So from your point of view, these must be angels as they come from heaven, not the "sky" in general. From my pov seeing as I believe the church is in heaven undergoing the Bema Seat judgment, the armies could be either or both. I don't think their identity really matters, what matters is Christ wins!

While I agree with you in principle (Christ doesn't "need" US to be His army and Christ wins), I disagree with you on points-of-interest. Consider this: "Aggeloi" (Gr32) translated as "angels" literally means "messengers," as does its Hebrew counterpart, "mal'akhiym" (He4297). Those "messengers" can be shown on numerous occasions to be either supernatural (as one usually expects with the word "angels") or HUMAN MESSENGERS! They can even be ONCE-NORMAL-HUMAN MESSENGERS! Have you stopped to consider that maybe - just maybe - those "angels as they come from heaven" are those who were ONCE NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS?

Also you assume TOO much when you say that, "from [my] point of view, these must be angels as they come from heaven, not the 'sky' in general." Haven't you been reading my posts on what I say about "heaven?" The word for "heaven" in Greek is "ouranos" (Gr3772), and it simply means the "SKY!" I do NOT accept the definition you gave (succinctly and without reference or proof) "as the abode of God." If they come from "ouranos," they DO come from the "sky" in general!

And, no, I still don't believe the "church" or ANYBODY goes to "heaven" when they die. I believe that we unconsciously await the RESURRECTION! However, if we (as our spirits) DO go anywhere, we would go to the New Jerusalem being constructed out in space. On the other hand, we would be without our bodies, so we would not be able to fully enjoy the experience until such time as we are placed back in our bodies of "flesh and bone as the disciples saw Yeshua` had." You see, there IS another Greek word that comes in play here: "epouranios" (Gr2032), and it simply means "of or from above [ouranos]," or "of or from above the sky!" This is the word that is applied to the New Jerusalem in Hebrews 12:22, translated as "heavenly."

I leave you with one passage of Scripture on which to ponder. (That means, "think on it for a long while, considering it from all angles"):

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Gr3772).
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Gr3772) is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Gr3772) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Gr3772); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

Trekson · Aug 11, 2014

Hi Retro, Are you saying that your Strong's Gr3772 does NOT use the phrase, "abode of God"? I think your insistence that once a word is used it always means the same thing is errant. For example, I could say "I have some extra "space" in my closet" and "there are several solar systems in "space"! Same word, two completely different meanings. In the NT the Gr3772 word has been translated as air, sky, heaven, heavens. The translation as heaven is by far the most numerous. Yes, it can sometimes mean "up in the heavens" as a general term for in the sky way beyond what we can see But it also and most commonly refers to a specific place where God and His angels resides and where we will as well.

Do you really believe the throne of God with the sea of glass and Christ sitting on His right hand is just floating somewhere beyond our solar system? I think the bible overwhelmingly implies that it is a specific location. There are approx. 300 times this word is used and only about five times it is translated as "sky". That's a pretty weak thread to hang one's hat on, imo!

shturt678s · Aug 11, 2014

Trekson said:
Hi Jack, I believe the wrath of God is in two parts. The wrath of the Lamb, Rev. 6:16 which are the trumpet judgments and the wrath of God, Rev. 16:1 which are the vial judgments, neither have begun yet.

Thank you for your response again! Dug up a little energy at my old age...thank you Jesus!

Only a head's up from a great grandpa, old Jack...however not 'great' as in "great," but have tons of great precious grand children which doesn't make my posit valid of course. Rev.6:16 is within Rev.6:12-17 which pictures the end of the world.

Rev.16:1-11 pictures the bowls of God's righteous wrath being poured out this very moment till Rev.16:12, etc. where Satan is personally loosed from hell to personally bring in the end.

Old Jack's opinion

Retrobyter · Aug 11, 2014

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Are you saying that your Strong's Gr3772 does NOT use the phrase, "abode of God"? I think your insistence that once a word is used it always means the same thing is errant. For example, I could say "I have some extra "space" in my closet" and "there are several solar systems in "space"! Same word, two completely different meanings. In the NT the Gr3772 word has been translated as air, sky, heaven, heavens. The translation as heaven is by far the most numerous. Yes, it can sometimes mean "up in the heavens" as a general term for in the sky way beyond what we can see But it also and most commonly refers to a specific place where God and His angels resides and where we will as well.

Do you really believe the throne of God with the sea of glass and Christ sitting on His right hand is just floating somewhere beyond our solar system? I think the bible overwhelmingly implies that it is a specific location. There are approx. 300 times this word is used and only about five times it is translated as "sky". That's a pretty weak thread to hang one's hat on, imo!

Here's Strong's entry on Gr3772:

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

However, James Strong and his allies were human beings and as such were fallible. I'm sure that if we could talk to them today, they would admit to that fact. The key is how was this word used IN EACH CONTEXT IN WHICH IT CAN BE FOUND?! THAT is the thing that determines its true meaning! It's also important to investigate the other words that CONTAIN this word, "ouranos." For instance, the one Greek word that is usually translated as "the midst of heaven" is "mesouraneema." (Gr3321)

NT:3321 mesouraneema (mes-oo-ran'-ay-mah); from a presumed compound of NT:3319 and NT:3772; mid-sky:
KJV - midst of heaven.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

How was THIS word used and where does it come from? It comes from "mesos" and "ouranos":

NT:3319 mesos (mes'-os); from NT:3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV - among, before them, between, forth, mid [-day, -night], midst, way.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, let's just say right now that it means "middle-[ouranos]" How was it used?

Well, Englishman's Concordance, a concordance of the Bible based on the GREEK words instead of the English translations, says this:

Revelation 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
KJV
Revelation 14:6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
KJV
Revelation 19:17
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
KJV

Only three times in the Greek New Testament.

Now, have you ever heard of a "limiting reagent?" In chemical stoichiometry, it is the substance that has the least amount required in a chemical formula for a reaction to continue. For instance, if one had fifty O2 (oxygen gas) molecules and ninety H2 (hydrogen gas) molecules and one burned the hydrogen in the presence of the oxygen, how many water vapor (H2O) molecules would one acquire? Well, one would have 50x2=100 oxygen atoms available and 90x2=180 hydrogen atoms available for the reaction. Since the chemical formula for water vapor is a 2:1 ratio, only ninety of the one hundred oxygen atoms would be used while all of the hydrogen atoms would be used up. Thus, the hydrogen is the limiting reagent of this reaction.

This limiting concept can be found in other things as well. The idea is that for something to be true, it must be true in all cases. In this particular instance, we find two verses where it is said that "angels" (Greek: aggeloi) fly in this "mesouraneema." Those are inconclusive since "angels," as supernatural beings, could indeed fly beyond the sky (theoretically speaking). HOWEVER, the "limiting reagent" is the third verse, Revelation 19:17, in which it is said that the "all the fowls (birds)" fly in the "mesouraneema." Birds CANNOT fly beyond the earth's atmosphere. In fact, they are limited to a certain height within the atmosphere!

Now, let's look at another Greek word based on "ouranos," "epouranios" (Gr2032):

NT:2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky:
KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

How was THIS word used and where does it come from? It comes from "epi" and "ouranos":

NT:1909 epi (ep-ee'); a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the det.) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:
KJV - about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, have charge of, (be-, [wherefore-]), in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, let's just say right now that it means "above-[ouranos]" How was it used?

Again, we turn to Englishman's Concordance:

Matthew 18:35
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
KJV
John 3:12
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:40
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:48
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:49
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV
Ephesians 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
KJV
Ephesians 1:20
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
KJV
Ephesians 2:6
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
KJV
Ephesians 3:10
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
KJV
Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
KJV
Philippians 2:10
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
KJV
2 Timothy 4:18
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
KJV
Hebrews 3:1
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
KJV
Hebrews 6:4
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
KJV
Hebrews 8:5
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
KJV
Hebrews 9:23
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
KJV
Hebrews 11:16
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
KJV
Hebrews 12:22
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV

It was used 20 times in 18 verses of the Greek New Testament.

Here, most of these verses can be seen in at least two different ways without being conclusively defined. However, there are a couple of interest. First, is Hebrews 12:22 which calls the "city of the living God" the "epouranios Jerusalem." On the other hand, while interesting, this, too, is inconclusive by itself.

HOWEVER, there is ONE instance that IS conclusive. 1 Corinthians 15:40. Let's look at the verse (in English) within its context:

1 Corinthians 15:35-41
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV

So, Paul said that there were "epouranios bodies." He then proceeds to describe them: the sun, the moon, and the stars! Thus, the sun, moon, and stars are "above-[ouranos] bodies!" We know today that these stars and satellites are in outer space where the air around our planet earth is rarified to the point of being practically non-existent, the atoms and molecules of our atmosphere's gases being captured by the earth's gravity. Where is outer space if not "above the sky" or "above the atmosphere?"

And, these are just two of the words that are made from "ouranos." ALL of them should be investigated. (I have done so. Big deal. However, in so doing, I have come to my conclusion: "Ouranos" means the "sky.") One can then also investigate all the occurrences of "shaamayim" in Hebrew for the same information in the Hebrew language. There, one must look at the prepositions, both stand-alone and prefixes, and the noun construct states.

You asked, "Do you really believe the throne of God with the sea of glass and Christ sitting on His right hand is just floating somewhere beyond our solar system? I think the bible overwhelmingly implies that it is a specific location." The New Jerusalem IS a "specific location!" And, YES, I really believe that the throne of God with the sea of glass and Christ sitting on His right hand are within the New Jerusalem! And, YES, I really believe that the New Jerusalem is "just floating ... somewhere ... beyond our solar system!"

John 14:1-3
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house (the New Jerusalem) are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

Trekson · Aug 12, 2014

Hi Retro, Your words: "You asked, "Do you really believe the throne of God with the sea of glass and Christ sitting on His right hand is just floating somewhere beyond our solar system? I think the bible overwhelmingly implies that it is a specific location." The New Jerusalem IS a "specific location!" And, YES, I really believe that the throne of God with the sea of glass and Christ sitting on His right hand are within the New Jerusalem! And, YES, I really believe that the New Jerusalem is "just floating ... somewhere ... beyond our solar system!"
John 14:1-3
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house (the New Jerusalem) are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

For the John passage you mentioned, I agree that is speaking of the NJ, however, I do think we need to look outside the time box a little. For example, I believe God was around for eons before Gen. 1:1,26-27. So, where were he and his angels hanging out? It seems unlikely they would be just floating around toasting marshmallows around various suns. I believe they had a specific home and it is that home that the 1/3 angels were cast out of. Logically speaking, how could you have a NJ before the earth was even thought of? How could angels be "cast out" of the air only to relocate to a new part of the air? Following the line of thought that the NJ is new since Christ's ascension, where were they before? Why do you resist the idea of a place called heaven? For all we know humanity could be God's one millionth rodeo and all the other things didn't work out as he planned. Remember if it wasn't for Noah, things didn't almost work out with this plan and "He repented that he ever created man" (paraphrased). Maybe "in His image" was something He hadn't tried before.

I believe for every living thing here on earth there are probably a bazillion (how's that for fancy math) of them in heaven. I believe that at the center of the universe is the mother of all planets and it is what is occasionally referred to as Heaven!

Retrobyter · Aug 13, 2014

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Your words: "You asked, "Do you really believe the throne of God with the sea of glass and Christ sitting on His right hand is just floating somewhere beyond our solar system? I think the bible overwhelmingly implies that it is a specific location." The New Jerusalem IS a "specific location!" And, YES, I really believe that the throne of God with the sea of glass and Christ sitting on His right hand are within the New Jerusalem! And, YES, I really believe that the New Jerusalem is "just floating ... somewhere ... beyond our solar system!"
John 14:1-3
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house (the New Jerusalem) are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

For the John passage you mentioned, I agree that is speaking of the NJ, however, I do think we need to look outside the time box a little. For example, I believe God was around for eons before Gen. 1:1,26-27. So, where were he and his angels hanging out? It seems unlikely they would be just floating around toasting marshmallows around various suns. I believe they had a specific home and it is that home that the 1/3 angels were cast out of. Logically speaking, how could you have a NJ before the earth was even thought of? How could angels be "cast out" of the air only to relocate to a new part of the air? Following the line of thought that the NJ is new since Christ's ascension, where were they before? Why do you resist the idea of a place called heaven? For all we know humanity could be God's one millionth rodeo and all the other things didn't work out as he planned. Remember if it wasn't for Noah, things didn't almost work out with this plan and "He repented that he ever created man" (paraphrased). Maybe "in His image" was something He hadn't tried before.

I believe for every living thing here on earth there are probably a bazillion (how's that for fancy math) of them in heaven. I believe that at the center of the universe is the mother of all planets and it is what is occasionally referred to as Heaven!

SIBKIS. See It Big, Keep It Simple. Words to live by, according to Charles "Tremendous" Jones.

The imagination is a wonderful tool; however, it is also the human race's WORST "Achilles' heel!" ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS temper your imagination with the truth of God's Word! Otherwise, you're just WAY OUT THERE ... IN LEFT FIELD! or in the words of Dr. Seuss, "On Beyond Zebra!"

God could have been around before the Genesis account of Creation "for eons," but where is your proof?! WERE the angels "hanging out" with God prior to Creation? Again, where is the proof? I thought they were "created beings." When were they created if not during the six days of Creation?

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV

And, don't think that Job 38:7 is about the Creation! There is internal evidence within that chapter to prove that he is talking about the RE-Creation after the Flood!

Look, I "resist the idea of a place called 'heaven'" because it is NOT SUPPORTED IN THE SCRIPTURES! Furthermore, I resist the idea because it DETRACTS from the anticipation that we should be feeling for the Resurrection! Christians have become complacent thinking "I'm going to heaven when I die to live happily ever after," not realizing that there is not only MUCH more to come, but we will experience it IN OUR BODIES!

shturt678s · Aug 13, 2014

Thank you folks for caring again!

Only a head's up, "Kingdom of heavens" ("heaven" = God's throne) has an earthly side and heavenly. Heaven, of course, existed waaay before Gen.1:1, eg, Jn.17:24 for openers. That is a kind of a "third heaven" (abode of God) sort of thing.

We just need to get through the "tribulation, the great one," in the sense of Rev.7:14, "...the ones coming out of the tribulation, the great one,..." meaning what? Possibly all the tribulations in the N.T. surely including the delusive one we were all born into for sure.

My end point in order to be a part of the solution, be measured at Rev.11:1 hourly, then one can have an inner peace for the truthful direction.

Old Jack's opinion

Trekson · Aug 18, 2014

Hi Retro, Sorry it's been awhile but a spell of good weather means "make hay while the sun shines". However, the rain is back and so am I.
Your words:"The imagination is a wonderful tool; however, it is also the human race's WORST "Achilles' heel!" ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS temper your imagination with the truth of God's Word! Otherwise, you're just WAY OUT THERE ... IN LEFT FIELD! or in the words of Dr. Seuss, "On Beyond Zebra!"

The problem is that in regards to all knowledge available in God's creation we are only given what God has deigned to share which, imo, is an infinitesimal fraction of what is available, so if we limit ourselves to only what he has shared with us then we are stuck in a very constraining box and I don't believe that it his plan. After all, He is the one that gave us our imaginations. 1 Co. 2:9 - "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Your words:"Look, I "resist the idea of a place called 'heaven'" because it is NOT SUPPORTED IN THE SCRIPTURES! Furthermore, I resist the idea because it DETRACTS from the anticipation that we should be feeling for the Resurrection! Christians have become complacent thinking "I'm going to heaven when I die to live happily ever after," not realizing that there is not only MUCH more to come, but we will experience it IN OUR BODIES!"

I don't think it detracts at all! It IS supported in scriptures you just don't want to admit that the same word can have various meanings. "Heavens" can mean the sky, outer space or "the abode of God" all of which can be considered "up" in the sky! The resurrection is just a means to an end. I don't care how I get "up there"! Resurrection or rapture, our destination is the same. You want to limit yourself to earth, I believe "the skies the limit!" The bodies with which we will experience eternity will be nothing at all like our physical bodies. Now we are just in clay shells but in the "sweet bye and bye" we will be so much more. It will be in the spiritual plain, a different dimension, however you want to word it, but Praise God, our "physical limitations" will be gone.

Retrobyter · Aug 18, 2014

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Sorry it's been awhile but a spell of good weather means "make hay while the sun shines". However, the rain is back and so am I.
Your words:"The imagination is a wonderful tool; however, it is also the human race's WORST "Achilles' heel!" ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS temper your imagination with the truth of God's Word! Otherwise, you're just WAY OUT THERE ... IN LEFT FIELD! or in the words of Dr. Seuss, "On Beyond Zebra!"

The problem is that in regards to all knowledge available in God's creation we are only given what God has deigned to share which, imo, is an infinitesimal fraction of what is available, so if we limit ourselves to only what he has shared with us then we are stuck in a very constraining box and I don't believe that it his plan. After all, He is the one that gave us our imaginations. 1 Co. 2:9 - "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

Your words:"Look, I "resist the idea of a place called 'heaven'" because it is NOT SUPPORTED IN THE SCRIPTURES! Furthermore, I resist the idea because it DETRACTS from the anticipation that we should be feeling for the Resurrection! Christians have become complacent thinking "I'm going to heaven when I die to live happily ever after," not realizing that there is not only MUCH more to come, but we will experience it IN OUR BODIES!"

I don't think it detracts at all! It IS supported in scriptures you just don't want to admit that the same word can have various meanings. "Heavens" can mean the sky, outer space or "the abode of God" all of which can be considered "up" in the sky! The resurrection is just a means to an end. I don't care how I get "up there"! Resurrection or rapture, our destination is the same. You want to limit yourself to earth, I believe "the skies the limit!" The bodies with which we will experience eternity will be nothing at all like our physical bodies. Now we are just in clay shells but in the "sweet bye and bye" we will be so much more. It will be in the spiritual plain, a different dimension, however you want to word it, but Praise God, our "physical limitations" will be gone.

You quoted 1 Cor. 2:9, but you also neglected both surrounding contexts:

1 Corinthians 2:1-16
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among THEM THAT ARE PERFECT (MATURE): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
KJV

Isaiah 64-65
64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!
3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and our beautiful house (Solomon's Temple), where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.
12 Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O LORD? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore?
65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.
11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child(hood) shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
KJV

And this is what I meant by "ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS temper your imagination with the truth of God's Word!" 1 Cor. 2:9 is NOT meant to be nebulous and wild-eyed! Its truth is confined to the text of the prophecy!

One doesn't have to go all ethereal or "Star Trekkie" about the future! We were created for this earth, and the earth was created for human beings! The Resurrection is a PHYSICAL, EARTHLY resurrection, bringing our natural bodies back to life LITERALLY and then transformed into SUPERnatural bodies! Where we go after that, who knows but God? He CERTAINLY has not revealed all of what happens in the distant future that from here we call "eternity." But, the prophecies predict a future, peaceful, healthy EARTH with a future, peaceful, healthy JERUSALEM, and LIFE GOES ON!

Trekson · Aug 19, 2014

Hi Retro, Yes, 1 Co. 2:9 is speaking both of a near fulfillment we receive in our walk with Christ, but it is also speaking of a future fulfillment when all will be revealed. We only are shown what we need to know as we grow in Christ. All knowledge is NOT imparted to us upon salvation.

Your words:"We were created for this earth, and the earth was created for human beings!" Yes, to the second part but No to the first. We were created upon the earth to glorify and honor God! Location does NOT matter. Either way you look at it the earth will be destroyed. Whether God remakes this present earth or creates a complete new one doesn't really matter. It will be destroyed by fire. You know the verses.

I guess on the major points we should agree to disagree. Regardless of who is correct, I'm sure neither of us will complain about the final outcome! Amen?

Have you ever done a study on Ez. 1? I'd like to read your take on it.

Retrobyter · Aug 19, 2014

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Yes, 1 Co. 2:9 is speaking both of a near fulfillment we receive in our walk with Christ, but it is also speaking of a future fulfillment when all will be revealed. We only are shown what we need to know as we grow in Christ. All knowledge is NOT imparted to us upon salvation.

Your words:"We were created for this earth, and the earth was created for human beings!" Yes, to the second part but No to the first. We were created upon the earth to glorify and honor God! Location does NOT matter. Either way you look at it the earth will be destroyed. Whether God remakes this present earth or creates a complete new one doesn't really matter. It will be destroyed by fire. You know the verses.

I guess on the major points we should agree to disagree. Regardless of who is correct, I'm sure neither of us will complain about the final outcome! Amen?

Have you ever done a study on Ez. 1? I'd like to read your take on it.

First of all, NO prophecy has a "near fulfillment" and a "future fulfillment." They all have exactly ONE fulfillment. That is the nature of a prophecy in order for people to be able to judge whether a prophet is of God or not! If all the prophecies that a prophet speaks come true, then he is a true prophet of God; if one of his prophecies fail, then he is a false prophet, and in Isra'el during the times when the Tanakh (the OT) was written, he would have been stoned to death!

ANY way you look at it, the earth will NOT be totally destroyed! The SURFACE of the earth shall be destroyed, but the earth also is said to "abide for ever!"

Exodus 31:13-17
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
KJV

Psalm 72:18-19
18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
KJV

Psalm 78:65-72
65 Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine.
66 And he smote his enemies in the hinder parts: he put them to a perpetual reproach.
67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:
68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.
69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
70 He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds:
71 From following the ewes great with young he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance.
72 So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands.
KJV

Psalm 104:1-5
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV

Ecclesiastes 1:1-4
1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

There is NOTHING in Scripture that even SUGGESTS that there is a "mother of all planets!" That's PURE FABRICATION!

Genesis 2:7-8
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
KJV

We were ALL in the loins of our father and mother, Adam, when God said to them:

Genesis 1:26-31
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
KJV

God gave them an occupation.

Genesis 2:15
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
KJV

And, this control over His creation was further extended to Noach and his family after the Flood:

Genesis 9:1-17
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
KJV

So, in principle, no, "regardless of who is correct, I'm sure neither of us will complain about the final outcome!" On the other hand, one should not contradict the Scriptures and the prophecies therein. One should ALWAYS remain true to the Scriptures!

Trekson · Aug 20, 2014

Hi Retro, I believe I do remain true to the scriptures. Scripture never said I would drive a red car or fly in a plane. They never proclaimed most of any historical events in modern history, so should I deny the reality just because the scriptures don't speak about them?!! Your world view is way too limited. You might find more truth if you expanded your parameters to include the possibilities of things unwritten. If man can think or imagine anything, God has either already accomplished it, or is preparing it for us. Lighten up a little.

Retrobyter · Aug 20, 2014

Shalom, Trekson.

Okay, I'll lighten up ... a LITTLE. Just make sure that what you say doesn't contradict the Scriptures, and your imagination can go wild within those parameters.

You might be surprised by what all I believe about the New Jerusalem, and within the confines of the Scriptures as provided. But, you must understand that the Scriptures are clear that the "earth," that is the "GROUND" or the "DIRT" on which we walk and the works of man SHALL be destroyed, but the "earth" as the whole planet (or the collection of all the lands of all peoples) shall NOT be destroyed fully.

God bless you.

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