I totally agree with you marksman. Emotionalism has always been the bane of the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, but it does NOT define the reality of the Holy Spirit and HOW He interacts with true believers. As in all of Christendom, many will do it wrong, but we do NOT and cannot throw out the baby with the bath water. We must follow Paul's instruction in 1 Cor 14:40 (NIV)marksman said:
SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?
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I thought I was quite clear that I did not agree with you.StanJ said:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
These verses ought to be enough to get on with. Again, I say, every Christian receives the Holy Spirit. Whether or not they receive the gifts of the Spirit is another matter entirely.
It did not escape my notice that, while you were so busy "correcting" me, you totally ignored the whole point of my post, so I will repeat it for you, and for others who may read this thread, here:
Speaking of "Slain in the Spirit":
Remember, there is absolutely no Biblical support for such a notion. None. Nada. Zilch. Not even a tiny suggestion.
Neither Jesus nor His Apostles ever touched anyone on the forehead and they fell over. Not ever. Not even Paul. None of them.
There are absolutely no cases in the Bible of anything even remotely approaching the practice of being "slain in the spirit".
And there would be, if it were something that God had ordained. Jesus was very careful to teach His Apostles, so that they would be able to carry His message forward to the world.
And when He left, He instructed them to carry His teaching to all the nations of the world:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Don't get me wrong. I am not, by any means, a cessationist. I know that the Holy Spirit is still alive and well, and dwelling in every single Christian. I know that He can and does still perform amazing miracles, sometimes through prayer and fasting, sometimes all on His Own. I've seen one of these miracles myself...in fact, I am alive right now because an angel intervened for me....but that's another story for another thread.
Just for fun, let's take a look at the gifts of the spirit:
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Now, we could discuss each and every one of these gifts. I'm fairly sure you and I have a different opinion on each one of them.
But....where is "slain in the spirit"? I've heard a couple of folks talk about what a blessing it is to be knocked out by the power of God...you'd think that a gift that brings a person peace in his spirit would at least get a mention...
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I take it you are OK with cathedrals and buildings; ministers dressed in frocks; altars; theological degrees; popes; right reverends; homosexual priests; titles; the host even though you won't find any of them in scripture.The Barrd said:
For your benefit, I will post the verses again:marksman said:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Again, I say, every Christian receives the Holy Spirit. And again, I say, I have the Lord's Word on it.
Really, you two need to read ALL of the Bible...
Whoa, now, that is a major assumption on your part. And, I hate to burst your bubble, but I am not Catholic.marksman said:
Let's look at your list, shall we?
Now, while I am not necessarily against a congregation having a building to meet in, I am a bit concerned when the building costs more to maintain than the average home. Still, I am content to leave it up to each congregation how much money they spend on their meeting house.
As for me, I tend to gravitate more toward more modest churches. One of the best I've ever attended was held in an old movie theater...
Uh, no. I'm not okay with ministers in frocks.
I'm pretty sure the Bible mentions altars.
I suppose it depends on what you think an altar is...
Most of the folks on this board could probably tell you that I have very little regard for "theological degrees".
You definitely do not know me. Our Catholic friend, Kepha, could tell you that I do not believe in a "pope".
Uh....nope.
Stan J could tell you about my stance on homosexuality. He and I have a major disagreement on how the church ought to react to gay marriage.
But I'll save you the trouble of asking.
It is a sin. The church should not endorse it, participate in it, nor involve itself with it in any way.
Any church that could ordain a homosexual priest, pastor, preacher, or whatever you want to call them, is NOT a Christian church.
I'm pretty sure you're not talking about titles like "Mr. President" or "Her Majesty, the Queen" or even "Dr. and Mrs. Jones".
The only religious titles I would use might be "Brother Micheal" or "Sister Joyce"....or maybe even "Pastor Jimmy"...just as a ferinstance.
Isn't that the Catholic term for the bread and wine at the Lord's Supper?
But I already told you...I'm not Catholic.
You know, I don't have any problem with a congregation using hymnals, or having electric lights, or plumbing, or even a baptistry. These things may not be mentioned in the Bible, but they do not change the order of worship in any way.
This "slain in the spirit" thing, however, is a matter of worship. Is it of God? If it is, God would have told us about it in His Word. He would have instructed His apostles in the proper procedure, as He did with baptism.
And if it is not of God, then where did it come from?
If it is not of God, should Christians be indulging in it?
Again, UHCAlan, I have to say that I have a great deal of respect for you. I do love a man with an open mind!UHCAIan said:
I hope that you will think and pray on these things. I will be doing some thinking, and some praying, myself.
Talking with you has been a rare experience for me. As you say, it is wonderful to be able to engage in a civil dialogue, and to see each others points of view and understand them.
You keep on holding to that precious Word, my friend...and so will I.
It's a bit late right now to wish you a Merry Christmas...the grandkids have all gone home to their wee beds...and ol' Granny has one heck of a mess to clean up! But it was grand! I hope yours was as fabulous as ours...and I pray that we both may be happy in the year to come!
And, hey...if you ever feel like just talking, shoot me a PM...
:wub:
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I did not say they weren't. if you care to read what I DID say it was the "SUPERNATURAL kingdom of God."The Barrd said:
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
The Barrd said:
I did not say you were a catholic and you have just shot yourself in the foot. You're OK with buildings but there is no mention of meetings in buildings in the NT. So I assume you pick and choose what you approve of regarding scripture.
Acts 5:42 Every day they spent time in the temple and in one home after another. They never stopped teaching and telling the good news that Jesus is the Messiah.
Romans 16:5 Greet the church that meets in their home. Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first person in Asia to have faith in Christ
.
Romans 16:23 Gaius welcomes me and the whole church into his home, and he sends his greetings. Erastus, the city treasurer, and our dear friend Quartus send their greetings too.
Collosians 4:15 Give my greetings to the followers at Laodicea, especially to Nympha and the church that meets in her home.
1 Timothy 5:10 She must also be well-known for doing all sorts of good things, such as raising children, giving food to strangers, welcoming God's people into her home, helping people in need, and always making herself useful.
Philemon 1:2 and to the church that meets in your home. It is also to our dear friend Apphia and to Archippus, who serves the Lord as we do.
Hebrews 13:2 Be sure to welcome strangers into your home. By doing this, some people have welcomed angels as guests, without even knowing it.
1 Peter 4:9 Welcome people into your home and don't grumble about it.
2 John 1:10 If people won't agree to this teaching, don't welcome them into your home or even greet them.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
All these verses talk about someone literally falling down....
Matthew 2:11, 4:9, 17:6, 18:26,18:29.
Mark 3:11, 5:22, 5:33, 7:35, 9:20.
Luke 5:8, 5:12, 8:28, 8:41, 17:18.
John 11:32, 18:6,
Acts 5:5, 5:10, 9:4, 10:25, 16:29, 22:7.
Revelation 1:17, 4:10, 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, 19:10, 22:8.
Matthew 2:11, 4:9, 17:6, 18:26,18:29.
Mark 3:11, 5:22, 5:33, 7:35, 9:20.
Luke 5:8, 5:12, 8:28, 8:41, 17:18.
John 11:32, 18:6,
Acts 5:5, 5:10, 9:4, 10:25, 16:29, 22:7.
Revelation 1:17, 4:10, 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, 19:10, 22:8.
"Shot myself in the foot"?marksman said:
Oh, you are the clever one, aren't you?
Can I assume, then, that you live in a "communal setting", like the very first Christians of Acts 2?
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Have you sold your possessions and goods so that you can share with the rest of the church?
Oh, and just to clarify for you, the church I am a part of is currently meeting in our homes.
Then let me be very clear, here.marksman said:
Every person who accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior is a part of the SUPERNATURAL Kingdom of God, since that suits you better.
And each of us receives the Holy Spirit....no exceptions.
Every.
Single.
One.
There is no separate "Baptism of the Holy Spirit".
If you were paying attention, waaayyy back when Jesus first began His ministry, it was promised that He would baptize us with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire
If you have been baptized as a Christian, you have received the Holy Spirit.
So, all of these verses refer to people being "slain in the spirit"?marksman said:
Let's look at them, then. Perhaps I will learn something...
Let's start with Matthew:
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
These are the three wise men. They "fell down and worshipped Him". Nobody touched them on their foreheads, they did not "fall under the power of the Holy Spirit", they did not lose consciousness...they were in control of themselves the whole time. They performed a purely voluntary act of worship. These men were not "slain in the spirit".
***
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Uh...are you actually reading these?
Here Jesus is being tempted by the devil.
Nobody does any falling down here, either by force, or voluntarily.
This definitely has nothing to do with anyone being "slain in the spirit".
***
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Here, Peter, James, and John are on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. They have just heard a Voice saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."
Terrified, they fall on their faces. Nobody touched them, on their foreheads or anywhere else.
Now, notice, please, what Jesus does:
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
These men are not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
I'm almost embarrassed to have to tell you that this guy is not worshipping God at all...but a human king that he owes money to.
***
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And this guy isn't even worshipping the king....he's just begging his fellowservant to have a bit of patience with him.
Neither of these servants were touched on the forehead, neither of them are falling "under the power of God"...
These men are not being "slain in the spirit".
***
To keep from posting a "wall of text", I will do Mark in the next post.
Mar 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.marksman said:
Technically, it is not men who are falling down before him, but "unclean spirits".
No touching on the forehead, no passing out under the power of God...
Nobody is being "slain in the spirit" here.
***
Mar 5:22 And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,
Read on, and you will see that Jairus has come to beg Jesus to heal his daughter, who is at the point of death. In his situation, I'd prostrate myself at His feet, too.
This is a voluntary act. No one touched Jairus, on the forehead or anywhere else, and he did not fall out under the power of God.
He is not being "slain in the spirit."
***
Mar 5:33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
This is one of my very favorite miracle stories. This lady had a very personal problem...she had an issue of blood that had gone on for twelve years. I can't even imagine how horrible that must have been for her, or how weak she must have been after 12 years of it.
But she had tremendous faith...all she needed, she was convinced, was merely to touch the hem of His garment, and she would be healed.
I'm sure it took some doing for this lady to get close enough to accomplish her humble goal...but she did it, and, glory to God, she was healed!
But Jesus had felt her, and He wanted to know what she was about.
She came to Him, to confess what had been done in her. She fell at His feet...who would not, in her situation?...and confessed all.
This was a voluntary act.
No one touched her.
She did not "fall out".
This woman was not "slain in the spirit."
***
Mar 7:35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.
Are you sure you are actually reading these?
Nobody fell down here.
Jesus is healing a deaf and dumb man.
Nobody is being "slain in the spirit".
***
Mar 9:20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
Another of my favorite miracle stories.
You do know that the spirit that "tare him" is a demon, right?
If we read on just a bit, we find out that this "spirit" tends to toss him around quite a bit:
Mar 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
Mar 9:22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
No one is touching this poor child on his forehead, or anywhere else, and it is certainly not the power of God that is knocking him down.
Jesus wants to know if the father has faith in His ability to heal the child, and the father admits that he needs a bit of help in that department.
Once that issue is settled, Jesus casts the evil spirit out of the child.
And when it is all over, what do we see Jesus doing?
Mar 9:27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
Once again, Jesus isn't knocking anyone down. Quite the contrary, He lifts the child up...
Nobody is being "slain in the spirit" here.
Okay....on to Luke!
You know, this is kind of fun!
Luke is up next:marksman said:
Luk 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
Simon Peter has just experienced a miracle, and he was convicted in his heart. He knew himself to be a sinful man.
This is a voluntary act. No one touched him on the forehead, or anywhere else, and there is nothing here about him falling out under the power of God.
Peter is not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Luk 5:12 And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
This man is begging Jesus to heal his leprosy. I'm sure you, or I, or anyone else in his situation would prostrate themselves on the ground at His feet.
This is a voluntary act. The man is not being touched on the forehead or anywhere else...indeed, no one would dare to touch a leper!...and he is not being knocked down by the power of God.
The leper is not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Luk 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
This is the famous demoniac of Gadara, who had so many demons in him that they called themselves "Legion". As almost everyone knows, Jesus cast these demons into a herd of pigs.
The point, of course, is that the man is not falling down before Jesus, the demons are.
No one has touched him (them?), nor are they being knocked down by the power of God.
The demoniac of Gadera is not being "slain in the spirit."
***
Luk 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:
We met Jairus already. He is begging Jesus for his little girl's life.
When he falls down at Jesus feet, it is a voluntary act.
No one touched him.
He is not falling out under the power of God.
He never loses consciousness...
Jairus is not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Okay...well, because I'm such a nice gal, I'm going to go ahead and post the verse where this fellow "falls down" for you:
Luk 17:16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
This polite gentleman is one of ten lepers that Jesus had healed earlier. He had gone with the rest of them, as Jesus had told them, to show themselves to the priests...but then, he decided to go back and thank Jesus for healing him.
He falls at Jesus feet in a voluntary act of thankful worship. No one is touching him, and he is not being knocked over by the power of God.
This grateful man is not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Hmmm....I see a certain pattern emerging here.
But what the heck? All my company has gone, and it is the wee hours of the morning...and I've nothing better to do.
So, on to John!
Joh 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.marksman said:
This girl is devastated at the death of her brother, Lazarus.
No one is touching her. She is not being knocked down by the power of God.
Jesus is so touched by her sorrow that He, also, weeps.
As everyone knows, He raises the dead Lazarus from his tomb...
No one is being "slain" in this story. In fact, the opposite of "slaying" is happening here. Far from "slaying" anyone, Jesus is giving a dead man new life!
Mary is not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
I do not believe you posted this one. You aren't reading these, are you?
This one involves the men who came to arrest Jesus.
The entire passage reads:
Joh 18:3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
Joh 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
These men, Judas and a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, had not come to worship Jesus.
They had come to arrest Him.
Technically, no one touched them.
However, they did fall over backwards by the power of the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who certainly could have slain them, both in body and spirit, had He so chosen.
The amazing thing is that these men, Judas included, continued with the arrest.
Even after Peter sliced off the leader's ear, and Jesus healed it, they still continued with the arrest.
Why, it was almost as if the spirit within them were dead...
Are you sure you want to claim this as being "slain in the spirit"?
Not a great example of Christian worship...
Ahh, well....on to Acts!!!!
Surely, we'll find a valid example in Acts!
Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.marksman said:
Wow...are you sure you want to use Ananias to prove that "slain in the spirit" has scriptural support?
Well, Ananias was certainly "slain"...literally.
As in, he died, right there, on the spot.
As a doornail, Marksman.
Now, I certainly do hope that nobody is dying as they line up at the altar to be "slain".
I'm pretty sure that, if what happened to Ananias started happening to Charismatics who practice "slain in the spirit", the movement would very quickly come to a screeching halt...
***
Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Ananias' wife, of course.
Also "slain"....as in DEAD, Marksman.
Another doornail.
You are not convincing me that this is a good thing...
***
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
I just knew you'd bring Paul into this.
Paul was on his way to Damascus with letters giving him authority to arrest any Christians he might find and drag them back to Jerusalem, where the Sanhedrin would condemn them to death.
He'd already been involved in the stoning of Stephen, and evidently had been involved in the murders of several other Christians.
At this point, he is hardly the devout worshipper who is likely to come foreward to the altar to receive a blessing...he is in rebellion against God, and against His Messiah.
Nobody touched him...the men with him were on the same mission as he was. And God didn't just knock him down...He also blinded him.
This doesn't look at all like what the Charismatic movement is calling "slain in the spirit". There is no scriptural support for the practice here.
Saul is not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
No one touched Cornelius.
He is not being knocked over by the power of God.
And please notice what Peter does:
Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
Cornelius is not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
The jailer's story begins a few verses up:
Act 16:25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
Act 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
This man had seen the power of God, unlocking the jail cells where His Apostles were held and loosening their bonds.
He falls down before Paul and Silas voluntarily...no one touches him, and he is not knocked down by the power of God.
He wants to know more about the God these men worship, and, in the end, he and his household also become Christians.
It is a beautiful story, but it has nothing to do with anyone being "slain in the spirit."
The jailer was not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
This is just Paul repeating what had happened to him back in Acts 9. I've already been over this one.
Paul is not being "slain in the spirit"...
***
Ahh, well...Revelation next!
I'm almost beginning to hope we do find something.
I think I'm feeling a bit sorry for you...this has gotta hurt.
Remember, i did try to warn you!
Got my fingers crossed for you, here, Marksman!marksman said:
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
I remember discussing this incident with UHCAlan.
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
This is not quite the same thing as lining up at the altar of your church and having the pastor whom you are familiar with touch you on the forehead. There are no friendly "cathers" waiting behind the writer, here.
I'd be very surprised if any one of us, faced with a similar situation, would not fall down.
I can just about guarantee that even I would pass out cold in such a situation.
However, this is not Biblical support for the Charismatic practice of being "slain in the spirit".
***
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Looks like a voluntary act of worship to me.
Who is touching these guys?
They are obviously not passing out, or even falling under the power of God.
They are falling down to worship...pretty much the same way as we might fall to our knees to pray.
The four and twenty elders are not being "slain in the spirit".
***
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Four and twenty elders, in heaven, falling down to worship God.
Completely voluntary....and quite beautiful.
But nothing here touches on anyone being "slain in the spirit".
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Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
God's holy angels, around Heaven's throne, fall down to worship God.
No one is touching them.
They are not being knocked over by the power of God.
They are worshipping Him.
Surely you are not suggesting that God's holy angels are being "slain in the spirit"?
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Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
These guys do seem to worship Him at every opportunity, don't they?
I'm beginning to like them.
However, it's the same ol' song...just a different verse.
The four and twenty elders are not being "slain in the spirit".
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Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
The four and twenty elders are not being "slain in the spirit".
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Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Here, the writer is being corrected by the angel, who tells him that worship is for God alone.
He is not being "slain in the spirit", obviously.
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Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Hmmm...
It seems that John is the guy who received the Revelation and wrote it for us. Which sort of lets Lazarus out of the running.
Ahh, well.
And, again, we see John trying to worship an angel...one can hardly blame him...but the angel again directs him not to do it, but to worship God only.
Hardly a case of anyone being "slain in the spirit".
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Ahh, well, Marksman....you can't say you didn't put in an effort.
Although it probably would have been better if you had read those passages before you posted them. But I'm sure you meant well.
I'm pretty sure you will not listen to me, but for the benefit of others who might read this, I offer the following:
This is the way false doctrines are made. You choose out your scriptures...I like to call them "canned scriptures....choosing only those that tend to agree with your supposed doctrine, and ignoring any that might contradict you in any way.
Then, you put your own special "spin" on these verses, helping them just a little, to "prove" your point.
Then....and this is the most important bit of all....you must count heavily on your audience not to read and study for themselves. And since most people do not really do that, you should be pretty safe...
Still, it might be a good idea to try to come up with some way to explain those conflicting verses....you know, just in case some wise guy does read and study for him/herself.
You want to divert attention away from those pesky verses that contradict you...
One good reason to always read before you post.
Although it probably would have been better if you had read those passages before you posted them. But I'm sure you meant well.
I'm pretty sure you will not listen to me, but for the benefit of others who might read this, I offer the following:
This is the way false doctrines are made. You choose out your scriptures...I like to call them "canned scriptures....choosing only those that tend to agree with your supposed doctrine, and ignoring any that might contradict you in any way.
Then, you put your own special "spin" on these verses, helping them just a little, to "prove" your point.
Then....and this is the most important bit of all....you must count heavily on your audience not to read and study for themselves. And since most people do not really do that, you should be pretty safe...
Still, it might be a good idea to try to come up with some way to explain those conflicting verses....you know, just in case some wise guy does read and study for him/herself.
You want to divert attention away from those pesky verses that contradict you...
One good reason to always read before you post.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
The majority of the verses in the Greek is to literally to fall down.
Your spin on them all shows that you have no idea what you are talking about which I knew anyway as people that oppose something without having experienced it usually say what they think it means, not what it means.
Your obsession with someone touching a person on the head and being pushed over is a case in question. I have seen people fall without anyone touching them or pushing them over. In fact regularly so until you can separate yourself from the experience you will not be able to mount a reasonable argument.
I have found and you obviously haven't that that God doesn't do things according to the way we want things done. As the scripture says, "the Spirit give the gifts severally as HE WILLS. Not as we will.
You cannot operate in the gifts of the Spirit unless he gives you the ability to do so and you cannot operate the gifts according to your way of thinking. If the truth be known, you probably do not operate in the gifts of the Spirit in any shape or form because I have found that people that want everything to happen their way are usually bypassed by the Spirit.
In one meeting I was in so I saw it all, the preacher told some adults to form a fire tunnel and the young people were going to walk through it and get an anointing from God as they did so. About a dozen adults formed a tunnel holding their hands in the air and joining them at the top.
The young people started to walk through the tunnel and not in every case, as they walked through they fell to the ground as they were "slain in the Spirit." Many spent time on the floor worshiping the Lord and some of the adults knelt beside them and prayed for them. By the time all the young people had gone through the tunnel there were bodies all over the place.
NO ONE TOUCHED THEM WHEN THEY FELL.
Those of us who were not involved in the whole thing could feel the power of the Spirit on the kids.
Now, please don't give me some sanctimonious explanation for it all as you were not there. You did not see the Power of the Spirit on the kids. You did not see them fall down without anyone touching them. You did not see them being set free from various things as they were on the floor. You did not see any sensationalism or orchestration of the result. You did not see the changed lives of the young people.
What you need to do now is accept that you don't know everything. Your experience of the power of the spirit is very limited. When God decides to use someone for supernatural purposes, he chooses the way it happens, not you. There are people who can hear from God as well as you if not better than you. There are people who are not afraid to do things unless they are done perfectly. In other words, according to the way that man thinks it should be done.
If you can come to terms with the things I have listed, you will start making progress.
And your comment " You want to divert attention away from those pesky verses that contradict you...
One good reason to always read before you post" is arrogant in the extreme as I drew your attention to the verses, not diverted your attention from them because if I had I would not have posted them.
As for reading before I post, how do you know that I didn't? You don't so you're being totally sanctimonious and trying to sound superior to others but you are failing miserably to be this. All you are doing is letting us know how little you know.
Your spin on them all shows that you have no idea what you are talking about which I knew anyway as people that oppose something without having experienced it usually say what they think it means, not what it means.
Your obsession with someone touching a person on the head and being pushed over is a case in question. I have seen people fall without anyone touching them or pushing them over. In fact regularly so until you can separate yourself from the experience you will not be able to mount a reasonable argument.
I have found and you obviously haven't that that God doesn't do things according to the way we want things done. As the scripture says, "the Spirit give the gifts severally as HE WILLS. Not as we will.
You cannot operate in the gifts of the Spirit unless he gives you the ability to do so and you cannot operate the gifts according to your way of thinking. If the truth be known, you probably do not operate in the gifts of the Spirit in any shape or form because I have found that people that want everything to happen their way are usually bypassed by the Spirit.
In one meeting I was in so I saw it all, the preacher told some adults to form a fire tunnel and the young people were going to walk through it and get an anointing from God as they did so. About a dozen adults formed a tunnel holding their hands in the air and joining them at the top.
The young people started to walk through the tunnel and not in every case, as they walked through they fell to the ground as they were "slain in the Spirit." Many spent time on the floor worshiping the Lord and some of the adults knelt beside them and prayed for them. By the time all the young people had gone through the tunnel there were bodies all over the place.
NO ONE TOUCHED THEM WHEN THEY FELL.
Those of us who were not involved in the whole thing could feel the power of the Spirit on the kids.
Now, please don't give me some sanctimonious explanation for it all as you were not there. You did not see the Power of the Spirit on the kids. You did not see them fall down without anyone touching them. You did not see them being set free from various things as they were on the floor. You did not see any sensationalism or orchestration of the result. You did not see the changed lives of the young people.
What you need to do now is accept that you don't know everything. Your experience of the power of the spirit is very limited. When God decides to use someone for supernatural purposes, he chooses the way it happens, not you. There are people who can hear from God as well as you if not better than you. There are people who are not afraid to do things unless they are done perfectly. In other words, according to the way that man thinks it should be done.
If you can come to terms with the things I have listed, you will start making progress.
And your comment " You want to divert attention away from those pesky verses that contradict you...
One good reason to always read before you post" is arrogant in the extreme as I drew your attention to the verses, not diverted your attention from them because if I had I would not have posted them.
As for reading before I post, how do you know that I didn't? You don't so you're being totally sanctimonious and trying to sound superior to others but you are failing miserably to be this. All you are doing is letting us know how little you know.
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