SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

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Barrd

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OzSpen said:
marksman,

I find it disturbing on this Christian forum that you would give that kind of flaming comment to a woman who is made God's image. You have made other derogatory comments in this thread to Barrd and I think it's time some moderator on this forum took you to task for your brazen, inflammatory comments to her.

I wouldn’t be as dogmatic as you are here with your adamant statement, 'Not one of these verses say that they taught men '. It can be challenged with the following kind of information.

Is Junias a female (Rom 16:7) and an apostle among the larger group of apostles (beyond the 12)? Where is the biblical evidence that apostles only ministered to males?

What about apostles after the time of the 12 apostles? Do they have authority in the church?

Let’s examine Romans 16:7. This verse reads: “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me” (ESV). The NIV translates as: “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”

These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse. Literally, the Greek reads, word-for-word (English translation): ‘Greet Andronicus and Junia the kinsmen of me and fellow-captives of me who are notable among/in/by the apostles who also before me have been in Christ’.

The controversy surrounds the gender of Junia, relating to the phrase, ‘among the apostles.’ If Junia is feminine and she is among the apostles, this makes her a female apostle.

So is Junia a male or female apostle? See my article: Are there apostles in the 21st century?

I’m not as convinced as you are that women are excluded from public ministry in the church. We’d be in a sad state on many a mission field if women were denied public ministry to a mixed audience. But practicalities should not dictate theology. The Bible determines our stance on women or no-women in public ministry to a mixed gathering.

I recommend a read of this article by Gordon Fee. He’s no novice as an exegete:

Fee, G D 1985. Reflections on church order in the pastoral epistles, with further reflection on the hermeneutics of ad hoc documents. Journal of the evangelical theological society, 28(2), June, 141-151. Available at: http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/28/28-2/28-2-pp141-151_JETS.pdf (Accessed 2 January 2016).

In addition, we know that women prophesied in a mixed gathering. We learn from 1 Cor 11:4-5 (NIV), 'Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head – it is the same as having her head shaved'. So in the Corinthian church, women prophesied.

Where did men AND women prophesy according to 1 Corinthians? We learn from 1 Cor 14:3 (ESV) that 'the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation'.

To whom does the woman who prophesies speak? It is 'to people'. Whenever anthropoi is used in a mixed group (i.e. the church) it refers not to male men, but to men and women. That's why the ESV, a formal equivalence translation, translates as 'people' and the NIV, a dynamic equivalence translation, also translates as 'people' because that's the meaning - men and women who prophesy are exercising their ministry among people, both male and female.

Many of God's gifted women in public speaking/preaching ministry have been closed down by your kind of pejorative language, 'You silly, silly woman. Not one of these verses say that they taught men'. I urge you to retract this, with sincere apologies to Barrd.

Oz
Oz, I most deeply appreciate your heroic defense, not only of myself, but of all women everywhere.
Another kiss on your cheek is due....and this time, I might even get brave and nibble your ear a bit...

On behalf of Christian women everywhere, Oz....
Thank you, and God bless you.
 

Barrd

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StanJ said:
Not surprising you continue to resist, but you can take it up with the author...I have NO problem with understanding his points or his analogies. If you have never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I can't expect you to understand, even though I desire you would.
Stan, what makes you so sure that I have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I've told you often enough....I believe in the working of the Holy Spirit.
I am alive today myself because God sent an angel to me.
And I have my own gifts of the Spirit, Stan. I thought I had mentioned that to you.

As far as taking it up with the author....I have the distinct feeling that would be about as productive as taking it up with you.
I've seen tongues...the real deal...in operation. They aren't some gibberish babbling...they are, as they were in Acts, real human languages that the speaker had never learned and did not know. I told you of my young friend, who, like me, has no faith in the so-called charismatic movement, but who found herself speaking in a different language to a lady on the telephone who was in need of some comforting.

I know that miracles have not ceased, Stan...
But I also know that for every true gift that the Holy Spirit gives, Satan is quick with a counterfeit.
That is why we are told to test the spirits, to see if they be of God.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

God doesn't knock people over.
He lifts them up.

Amen.
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
Stan, what makes you so sure that I have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I've told you often enough....I believe in the working of the Holy Spirit.
I am alive today myself because God sent an angel to me.
And I have my own gifts of the Spirit, Stan. I thought I had mentioned that to you.

As far as taking it up with the author....I have the distinct feeling that would be about as productive as taking it up with you.
I've seen tongues...the real deal...in operation. They aren't some gibberish babbling...they are, as they were in Acts, real human languages that the speaker had never learned and did not know. I told you of my young friend, who, like me, has no faith in the so-called charismatic movement, but who found herself speaking in a different language to a lady on the telephone who was in need of some comforting.

I know that miracles have not ceased, Stan...
But I also know that for every true gift that the Holy Spirit gives, Satan is quick with a counterfeit.
That is why we are told to test the spirits, to see if they be of God.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

God doesn't knock people over.
He lifts them up.
Basically by your comments, but let's not beat around the bush....HAVE YOU received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues?

How do you know they were real languages if you didn't know the languages? you seem well prepared to accept second hand accounts as factual but not first hand accounts, nor what the scriptures say? How convenient is that?

We're not discussing miracles Barrd. The devil may APPEAR as an angel of light, but he can NOT duplicate real miracles or gifts of the Holy Spirit. John is talking about the spirit of false teaching, NOT works of the Holy Spirit. Sad you don't see the difference.

Careful Barrd....he may just knock you over one day for doubting what He can do.

Acts 9:4 - And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Revelation 1:17 - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Ezekiel 1:28 - As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

John 18:6 - As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

2 Chronicles 5:14 - So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

I even gave them to you here in the KJV.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
You know, I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't like me. It's cuz of my hair, isn't it? You don't like the color of my hair...
I will tell you what I don't like and this is the honest truth. I don't like anyone calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan as it is an insult to the risen Christ and the sooner you learn that the better for you. So far most of your posts have fallen into this category so you are on dangerous ground.

As for the colour of your hair. I could not care less whether your hair is blue, black, green, orange, pink, white, red, sepia, multicoloured or whatever. It only goes to show once again that you have delusions of grandeur.
 

marksman

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OzSpen said:
A leading NT exegete, Dr N T Wright, has a very different take on 1 Tim 2:12 (ESV) than you do. He wrote:
Sorry ozpen, but I NEVER base what I believe on the views of ONE person. NEVER as it is no different to basing what you believe on one verse. I attended a Brethren Bible College for my theology degree and was taught that is anathema.

For example, I did a study of New Testament Life which took me two years. Apart from studying it in New Testament Greek, I read over 40 books on the subject. This gave me a very broad understanding of the subject and prevented me from putting my own spin on it. It included contacting denominational leaders with their take on certain questions.

After all that study, I am not too impressed when one speaks about what ONE person thinks or what ONE verse of scripture says about any topic. I know the church in general does not encourage in depth study of the Word. They usually give them a little titbit on Sunday and leave it at that, but that is not and never has been the way I have been taught.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
On behalf of Christian women everywhere, Oz....
Thank you, and God bless you.
Sorry but you do not speak for women everywhere. The stream that I am most associated with, the women have no desire whatsoever to have authority over men. The men had a gentle authority that we all respected and the women were full of humility and had a servant spirit, something that seems to have been lost in today's church.
 

marksman

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OzSpen said:
marksman,

I find it disturbing on this Christian forum that you would give that kind of flaming comment to a woman who is made God's image. You have made other derogatory comments in this thread to Barrd and I think it's time some moderator on this forum took you to task for your brazen, inflammatory comments to her.

I wouldn’t be as dogmatic as you are here with your adamant statement, 'Not one of these verses say that they taught men '. It can be challenged with the following kind of information.

Is Junias a female (Rom 16:7) and an apostle among the larger group of apostles (beyond the 12)? Where is the biblical evidence that apostles only ministered to males?

What about apostles after the time of the 12 apostles? Do they have authority in the church?

Let’s examine Romans 16:7. This verse reads: “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me” (ESV). The NIV translates as: “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.”

These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse. Literally, the Greek reads, word-for-word (English translation): ‘Greet Andronicus and Junia the kinsmen of me and fellow-captives of me who are notable among/in/by the apostles who also before me have been in Christ’.

The controversy surrounds the gender of Junia, relating to the phrase, ‘among the apostles.’ If Junia is feminine and she is among the apostles, this makes her a female apostle.

So is Junia a male or female apostle? See my article: Are there apostles in the 21st century?

I’m not as convinced as you are that women are excluded from public ministry in the church. We’d be in a sad state on many a mission field if women were denied public ministry to a mixed audience. But practicalities should not dictate theology. The Bible determines our stance on women or no-women in public ministry to a mixed gathering.

I recommend a read of this article by Gordon Fee. He’s no novice as an exegete:

Fee, G D 1985. Reflections on church order in the pastoral epistles, with further reflection on the hermeneutics of ad hoc documents. Journal of the evangelical theological society, 28(2), June, 141-151. Available at: http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/28/28-2/28-2-pp141-151_JETS.pdf (Accessed 2 January 2016).

In addition, we know that women prophesied in a mixed gathering. We learn from 1 Cor 11:4-5 (NIV), 'Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head – it is the same as having her head shaved'. So in the Corinthian church, women prophesied.

Where did men AND women prophesy according to 1 Corinthians? We learn from 1 Cor 14:3 (ESV) that 'the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation'.

To whom does the woman who prophesies speak? It is 'to people'. Whenever anthropoi is used in a mixed group (i.e. the church) it refers not to male men, but to men and women. That's why the ESV, a formal equivalence translation, translates as 'people' and the NIV, a dynamic equivalence translation, also translates as 'people' because that's the meaning - men and women who prophesy are exercising their ministry among people, both male and female.

Many of God's gifted women in public speaking/preaching ministry have been closed down by your kind of pejorative language, 'You silly, silly woman. Not one of these verses say that they taught men'. I urge you to retract this, with sincere apologies to Barrd.

Oz
That is your perception, not mine and as I don't know you from a bar of soap, I am not going to start backtracking on what I said. When she apologizes for calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan (does that bother you?) then I might listen.

None of those verses say that they taught men.

"These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse" is what I said so what is your problem? And how can Junia be a kinsman if he is a woman?

I have NEVER said that women are excluded from public ministry in the church.

I NEVER said women cannot prophesy.

​Putting words in my mouth wil not solve anything and will not make your arguments any more authoritative.

You may be happy with error or calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan but I am not and have never been. Whilst that is evident I will be a vigorous defender of the truth. I cut my teeth debating atheists at university so one has to be very sharp and certain when you do that because if you are not they will quickly expose the flaws in your arguments. When you do that you have to canvas every angle to cover yourself and mount a strong argument. Rely on ONE point only and you are dead meat.

​if you want more evidence for what I am saying just read this comment from her....

Stan, what makes you so sure that I have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I've told you often enough....I believe in the working of the Holy Spirit.
I am alive today myself because God sent an angel to me.
And I have my own gifts of the Spirit, Stan. I thought I had mentioned that to you.

​She has very carefully avoided the issue. The subject was the baptism of the Spirit but she has changed it to the working of the Spirit, whatever that means. That looks like a spirit of deception to me.

​And then there is the claim that she has her own gifts of the Spirit. No one has their own gifts of the Spirit. What we do have is gifts given to us by the Spirit and if the Spirit does not give we don't have. Again, it sounds like a spirit of deception at work.

And I make no apology for these comments because I have been immersed in spiritual warfare for many years having been taught by men who have the runs on the board in this area. There ain't much I haven't seen right down to satan manifesting himself as a snake through a demon possessed lesbian feminist.

And no doubt our resident female authority on the scriptures will tell us you can't find this in the bible so it must be counterfeit.
 

Barrd

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StanJ said:
Basically by your comments, but let's not beat around the bush....HAVE YOU received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues?

How do you know they were real languages if you didn't know the languages? you seem well prepared to accept second hand accounts as factual but not first hand accounts, nor what the scriptures say? How convenient is that?

We're not discussing miracles Barrd. The devil may APPEAR as an angel of light, but he can NOT duplicate real miracles or gifts of the Holy Spirit. John is talking about the spirit of false teaching, NOT works of the Holy Spirit. Sad you don't see the difference.

Careful Barrd....he may just knock you over one day for doubting what He can do.

Acts 9:4 - And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Revelation 1:17 - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Ezekiel 1:28 - As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

John 18:6 - As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

2 Chronicles 5:14 - So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

I even gave them to you here in the KJV.
Whoa, what? So, you think that every one who receives the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues?

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Evidently, Paul did not think so. Stan, desire the more excellent way.

What is the first hand account?

Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

I'd be interested in hearing how you would answer those men and women.
Careful...there were people from all over the known world there.

Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

That last bit is very important:

we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The men and women gathered that day did not hear those disciples speaking some weird gibberish, and they didn't need someone to interpret for them what was being said. They heard them speaking in their own languages, and they understood every word.
It couldn't be more obvious that they were speaking in human languages, even if we could somehow travel back in time and hear them speaking in English.
And before you get all crazy, I am not saying that anyone was speaking in English. I just want to make that very clear.

Like every other Christian, I have been baptized into Jesus Christ, and, yes, Stan, I have received the Holy Spirit. I thought I had told you that.

Stan, can Satan bring back a woman who had been mauled by a vicious dog that was attacking her children, and bled to death? Can he give that woman back to her family, healthy and whole, without even so much as a scar to show for her ordeal?
I would like to hear your answer, Stan.


Didn't we already cover these verses? Ahh, well...I don't mind doing it again.

Acts 9:4 - And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Saul's famous conversion experience. He was on his way to Damascus with letters giving him authority to arrest any Christians he might find.
And Jesus knocked him off his high horse...and blinded him.

The first thing to get clear here, is that Saul was, at this time, definitely NOT a devout Christian. He definitely had not come to the Lord, seeking some blessing. What he is doing is going to seek out and destroy as many of Christ's followers as possible.
And then, he was blinded. I'm going to go way out on a limb, here, and say that those people who go to the altar and fall over into the waiting arms of "catchers" are not blinded. I'd bet that, if they were, they wouldn't keep coming back for another hit...

Revelation 1:17 - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Let's back up a just a bit:

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Now, I don't know about you, but if I had just seen this, I'd probably fall down, too.
But look again at the verse you quoted:

Revelation 1:17 - And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

And from there, John records the messages to the various churches. I'm going to say that he wasn't doing this from a prone position on the ground...
What had happened was that Jesus laid His right hand upon him, and lifted him up.

Ezekiel 1:28 - As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Again, if I had just seen what Ezekiel had seen, I can pretty much guarantee that I'd fall over, too. But what does God say to him?

Eze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.

Do keep up, Stan. As you can very plainly see, God lifted Ezekiel to his feet.
God doesn't knock people down. He lifts them up.


John 18:6 - As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why you would use this incident.
These men were not coming to Gethsemane to worship Jesus. They were not there to praise Him.
They had come with swords and staves to arrest Jesus.
Judas, who betrayed Jesus, was among them.
Do you understand, then, that them falling backward was not some kind of blessing? They were not "resting in the Lord", or any such nonsense.
And they continued with the arrest.
That is significant, Stan. They continued with the arrest, even after Jesus had spoken, and they had fallen over.
Even after Peter drew his sword and clipped off the leader's ear, and Jesus healed it, they still continued with the arrest.
One could make the argument that these men, including Judas, were spiritually dead...
By the way, you do know that, when something is slain, it is dead, right?
2 Chronicles 5:14 - So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.

This does not say that God knocked anyone off their feet. What is happening here is that they have finished building the Temple, and God was moving into it. The Temple was filled with the pillar of cloud that had led them in their wilderness wanderings.
Just as well that God didn't decide to manifest as the pillar of fire that went before them at night...
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
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marksman said:
I will tell you what I don't like and this is the honest truth. I don't like anyone calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan as it is an insult to the risen Christ and the sooner you learn that the better for you. So far most of your posts have fallen into this category so you are on dangerous ground.

As for the colour of your hair. I could not care less whether your hair is blue, black, green, orange, pink, white, red, sepia, multicoloured or whatever. It only goes to show once again that you have delusions of grandeur.
I would never call the true work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan.
You have falsely accused me.

As to the color of my hair, I was being facetious.
Marksman, I am sorry that you do not like me. But I can't let your disapproval bother me.
I am a disciple of the Lord, Jesus Christ, and Him I will follow, no matter what anyone else thinks about it.
I am not here to earn your approval, Marksman. It occurs to me that you are the one with the delusions of grandeur...
 

Barrd

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marksman said:
Sorry but you do not speak for women everywhere. The stream that I am most associated with, the women have no desire whatsoever to have authority over men. The men had a gentle authority that we all respected and the women were full of humility and had a servant spirit, something that seems to have been lost in today's church.
Do you have a servant spirit, Marksman?
 

OzSpen

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marksman said:
Sorry ozpen, but I NEVER base what I believe on the views of ONE person. NEVER as it is no different to basing what you believe on one verse. I attended a Brethren Bible College for my theology degree and was taught that is anathema.

For example, I did a study of New Testament Life which took me two years. Apart from studying it in New Testament Greek, I read over 40 books on the subject. This gave me a very broad understanding of the subject and prevented me from putting my own spin on it. It included contacting denominational leaders with their take on certain questions.

After all that study, I am not too impressed when one speaks about what ONE person thinks or what ONE verse of scripture says about any topic. I know the church in general does not encourage in depth study of the Word. They usually give them a little titbit on Sunday and leave it at that, but that is not and never has been the way I have been taught.
marksman,

That's a red herring logical fallacy of a response. You did not deal with the issues I raised. You were off and running with your own twist and turn on the topic about the Brethren Bible College. That's not the topic we are discussing.

We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this.

Oz
 

Barrd

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marksman said:
That is your perception, not mine and as I don't know you from a bar of soap, I am not going to start backtracking on what I said. When she apologizes for calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan (does that bother you?) then I might listen.

None of those verses say that they taught men.

"These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse" is what I said so what is your problem? And how can Junia be a kinsman if he is a woman?

I have NEVER said that women are excluded from public ministry in the church.

I NEVER said women cannot prophesy.

​Putting words in my mouth wil not solve anything and will not make your arguments any more authoritative.

You may be happy with error or calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan but I am not and have never been. Whilst that is evident I will be a vigorous defender of the truth. I cut my teeth debating atheists at university so one has to be very sharp and certain when you do that because if you are not they will quickly expose the flaws in your arguments. When you do that you have to canvas every angle to cover yourself and mount a strong argument. Rely on ONE point only and you are dead meat.

​if you want more evidence for what I am saying just read this comment from her....

Stan, what makes you so sure that I have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I've told you often enough....I believe in the working of the Holy Spirit.
I am alive today myself because God sent an angel to me.
And I have my own gifts of the Spirit, Stan. I thought I had mentioned that to you.

​She has very carefully avoided the issue. The subject was the baptism of the Spirit but she has changed it to the working of the Spirit, whatever that means. That looks like a spirit of deception to me.

​And then there is the claim that she has her own gifts of the Spirit. No one has their own gifts of the Spirit. What we do have is gifts given to us by the Spirit and if the Spirit does not give we don't have. Again, it sounds like a spirit of deception at work.

And I make no apology for these comments because I have been immersed in spiritual warfare for many years having been taught by men who have the runs on the board in this area. There ain't much I haven't seen right down to satan manifesting himself as a snake through a demon possessed lesbian feminist.

And no doubt our resident female authority on the scriptures will tell us you can't find this in the bible so it must be counterfeit.
The animosity here is unbelievable. I don't know you from a bar of soap, either, so why should I listen to you?
I have never called the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan. I have said, with complete confidence, that the phenomenon in the charismatic movement known as "slain in the spirit" is not the work of the Holy Spirit. There is no scriptural authority for it, the apostles did not practice it, and Jesus never did any such thing during His ministry. I see no reason why I should apologize to you or to anyone for standing up for what I believe.

You say that you "cut your teeth" debating atheists. Tell me, did you ever convert even one atheist to Christ?
I'll never forget my first clash with atheists on the internet. They tore me to shreds, I admit it. But, over time, we became friends. One guy actually threatened me...he was going to come to my town and seek me out...I told him I'd meet him at the local Dairy Queen. He asked me what I'd do if he showed up, and I told him I would buy him a hot fudge sundae. I can proudly say that, although that kid had come to Christian chat to mock, he wound up staying to pray. Before you get all crazy, I do not take credit for his conversion...only for showing him the love of Christ. No one had ever shown him love before.

When I say that I have my own gifts of the Holy Spirit, I am not claiming to have something no other Christian has. The Holy Spirit distributes His gifts as He wills. But I'm sure you knew that. You are merely looking for something to accuse me.

You say you have been "immersed in spiritual warfare for many years". I am so sorry to hear that, Marksman. I would wish for you the peace that passes understanding that only Jesus can give to you.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

If you are always looking for a fight, you will certainly find one.
Being a peacemaker is far more difficult.
But, oh....the effort is sooooo worth it!

I'm not even going to comment on your demon possessed lesbian feminist snake...
 

Barrd

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marksman said:
Sorry but you do not speak for women everywhere. The stream that I am most associated with, the women have no desire whatsoever to have authority over men. The men had a gentle authority that we all respected and the women were full of humility and had a servant spirit, something that seems to have been lost in today's church.
I will thank who I want to thank, and I will do it in my own words.
 

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The Barrd said:
You know, I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't like me.
It's cuz of my hair, isn't it? You don't like the color of my hair...
It has more to do with his inflammatory, ungodly language towards you in this public forum. This kind of attack on you should not be allowed on any Christian forum.
 

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marksman said:
Sorry but you do not speak for women everywhere. The stream that I am most associated with, the women have no desire whatsoever to have authority over men. The men had a gentle authority that we all respected and the women were full of humility and had a servant spirit, something that seems to have been lost in today's church.
marksman,

In another post, you identified the fact that you attended a Brethren Bible College. Since you live in Melbourne, you are a fellow Aussie with me. Does this mean you are associated with the Christian Brethren? If you are, it may be true that the women in your assembly and other assemblies you know have no desire to have authority over men.

However, these are the facts as I know them. Women in Brethren assemblies (Plymouth Brethren, Gospel Hall) are NOT ALLOWED to speak in a mixed church gathering here in Qld. They are to remain totally silent. Even in Assemblies that have open worship, women are not allowed to even give out/announce a hymn to sing.

How do I know? My parents were Christian Brethren (they are now at home with Jesus) and my sister and brother-in-law currently attend a Christian Brethren assembly where he has been an elder. One of my closest friends attends and preaches in a Christian Brethren assembly where women are not allowed to participate in public ministry (apart from playing the organ).

It's part of their theology that women must be silent when the church gathers. I'm not talking theory. I know from practical experience.

Oz
 

Barrd

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OzSpen said:
marksman,

In another post, you identified the fact that you attended a Brethren Bible College. Since you live in Melbourne, you are a fellow Aussie with me. Does this mean you are associated with the Christian Brethren? If you are, it may be true that the women in your assembly and other assemblies you know have no desire to have authority over men.

However, these are the facts as I know them. Women in Brethren assemblies (Plymouth Brethren, Gospel Hall) are NOT ALLOWED to speak in a mixed church gathering here in Qld. They are to remain totally silent. Even in Assemblies that have open worship, women are not allowed to even give out/announce a hymn to sing.

How do I know? My parents were Christian Brethren (they are now at home with Jesus) and my sister and brother-in-law currently attend a Christian Brethren assembly where he has been an elder. One of my closest friends attends and preaches in a Christian Brethren assembly where women are not allowed to participate in public ministry (apart from playing the organ).

It's part of their theology that women must be silent when the church gathers. I'm not talking theory. I know from practical experience.

Oz
Oz

I think it is very sad, when a church denies women the right to participate in the leadership. It is like denying them needed nourishment.
Yes, there are basic differences between men and women....and viva la difference!...and these are not all only physical differences.
But there is no reason whatsoever why a woman can not be as good a teacher as a man.
Don't we have female teachers in adult education? Female professors who teach college-level subjects? And the men who are their students have no problem learning from them.
I'm sure that Paul's instructions to Timothy had to do with the cult of Diana that was prevalent in Ephesus, as you pointed out.

The Bible has many stories of women in leadership positions...women chosen by God to fulfill His purposes.

Deborah immediately comes to mind...a woman who was a warrior and who, with Barak, led Israel in battle against the armies of Sisera, who was defeated by a woman. She (Deborah) was an amazing lady.

I will continue to say that God loves His daughters every bit as much as He loves His sons, and He puts no difference between them. God bless the men, and the women, who have been chosen by God to lead and to teach His people.

I am proud to call this Aussie bloke my friend.

In Christian love,
The Barrd
 

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marksman said:
That is your perception, not mine and as I don't know you from a bar of soap, I am not going to start backtracking on what I said. When she apologizes for calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan (does that bother you?) then I might listen.

None of those verses say that they taught men.

"These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse" is what I said so what is your problem? And how can Junia be a kinsman if he is a woman?

I have NEVER said that women are excluded from public ministry in the church.

I NEVER said women cannot prophesy.

​Putting words in my mouth wil not solve anything and will not make your arguments any more authoritative.

You may be happy with error or calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan but I am not and have never been. Whilst that is evident I will be a vigorous defender of the truth. I cut my teeth debating atheists at university so one has to be very sharp and certain when you do that because if you are not they will quickly expose the flaws in your arguments. When you do that you have to canvas every angle to cover yourself and mount a strong argument. Rely on ONE point only and you are dead meat.

​if you want more evidence for what I am saying just read this comment from her....

Stan, what makes you so sure that I have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I've told you often enough....I believe in the working of the Holy Spirit.
I am alive today myself because God sent an angel to me.
And I have my own gifts of the Spirit, Stan. I thought I had mentioned that to you.

​She has very carefully avoided the issue. The subject was the baptism of the Spirit but she has changed it to the working of the Spirit, whatever that means. That looks like a spirit of deception to me.

​And then there is the claim that she has her own gifts of the Spirit. No one has their own gifts of the Spirit. What we do have is gifts given to us by the Spirit and if the Spirit does not give we don't have. Again, it sounds like a spirit of deception at work.

And I make no apology for these comments because I have been immersed in spiritual warfare for many years having been taught by men who have the runs on the board in this area. There ain't much I haven't seen right down to satan manifesting himself as a snake through a demon possessed lesbian feminist.

And no doubt our resident female authority on the scriptures will tell us you can't find this in the bible so it must be counterfeit.
You are the one accusing me, 'That is your perception'. I gave you an example of your flaming comment about The Barrd. She does not deserve to get that kind of goading from you. It has nothing to do with perception. It is what you did. To call her, 'You silly, silly woman ' is goading her and is an unchristian action.

Are you telling me that people crawling around the floor and barking like dogs, allegedly under the influence of the Holy Spirit, is the work of God?

You ask of Rom 16:7 (ESV), 'And how can Junia be a kinsman if he is a woman?' You were the one who told me you had studied Greek. I cannot believe you made this kind of comment without providing me with the exegesis.

What's the meaning of suggeneis in Rom 16:7? It's translated as 'kinsmen' in some English translations. Here is the breakdown: 'fellow Jews' (NIV, NLT, ISV); 'compatriots' (NET); 'my relatives [or compatriots] (NRSV); 'kinsmen' (KJV, ESV, NASB).

What's the meaning of suggeneis [from suggenes]? Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning as 'related, akin to' but in Rom 16:7 it is 'in the broader sense fellow-countryman, fellow-citizen of members of the same nation' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:780). Therefore, it has nothing to do with being a male person only. It has everything to do with being a fellow-citizen - a member of the same nation - and that means males AND females.

Your claim is that 'None of those verses say that they taught men'. None of these verses said that they did not teach men. I provided you with a sensible discussion of the exegetical difficulties with 1 Tim 2:12, but you don't want to listen to that exegesis from N T Wright, but want to tell us about the Brethren Bible College you attended. Sad, really, as so many gifted women have been closed down in ministry to a mixed group.

Billy Graham claims his daughter, Anne Graham Lotz, is the best preacher in the family. It is very sad what happened to Anne when she got up to speak at a place where she had been invited. See HERE.

I must get ready for church. I'll get back to answering other issues in your post to me, later in the day.

Blessings,
Oz

Works consulted
Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
Perhaps I misunderstood you. You said that you heard the phrase I had used from Mormon Missionaries. It's a phrase I heard a lot growing up in upstate New York. But I never so much as met a Mormon missionary until a couple of years ago.

This is a very interesting link, Stan...I'm definitely learning from it.
No perhaps about it. It's a mind set that is displayed in that phrase. More often than not, a brain washed mindset.

Yes it is, and picking it apart is your right, just not with me. Take it up with the author. He hasn't experienced you inflexibility yet so maybe he would be more willing to give you the benefit of the doubt?

I'm glad you are learning from it.
 

Barrd

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StanJ said:
No perhaps about it. It's a mind set that is displayed in that phrase. More often than not, a brain washed mindset.

Yes it is, and picking it apart is your right, just not with me. Take it up with the author. He hasn't experienced you inflexibility yet so maybe he would be more willing to give you the benefit of the doubt?

I'm glad you are learning from it.
When it comes to mere humans trying to add their own notions to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, yeah...I guess you could say my mind is set. Call me "brainwashed" if you like, but you have no authority to add to what the Holy Spirit is commissioned to do. There is no Scriptural authority for it. Period. The End. That's all, folks.

Driving a car to church, or having a building to meet in are not on the same level at all....I know you aren't the one who tried to shove those kinds of things into this foolish debate...but I felt that it needed to be said. There is no sin in using a car to get to where you need to go, including church, and certainly no sin in having a church building to meet in.
There is another denomination that insists that because the NT does not mention any instrumental music to be used in the worship, therefore it is wrong to have a piano or an organ. The entire congregation sings "acapella"...which is fine, as long as everyone can sing, but not so good if you have one Barney Fife or one Edith Bunker in the crowd. Ooh, my achin' ears! Funny thing though...they have no objection to cars or buildings. Just shows how foolish people can be once they get the idea that they are holier...or "more spiritual"...than the average "Joe-on-the-street" Christian. They remind one of the Pharisee who wanted to tell God what a great guy he was...but it was the sinning publican that caught and held God's attention...

Am I "picking it apart" when I compare what the writer of that article is saying with what is written in the Bible? The Bible is my final authority on these matters....as it ought to be every Christian's final authority...and the plain fact is that there is no Biblical support for it. What that writer represented does not constitute Biblical support, as I have shown. Basically, Stan, you are chasing the wind.

Take it up with the author? I'd be happy to. Do you know how to reach him?
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
When it comes to mere humans trying to add their own notions to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, yeah...I guess you could say my mind is set. Call me "brainwashed" if you like, but you have no authority to add to what the Holy Spirit is commissioned to do. There is no Scriptural authority for it. Period. The End. That's all, folks.
So you're claiming to be MORE than a MERE human being? Well that would explain a lot. If you think you're perspective is the ONLY correct one then why are you here? Obviously NOT to seek truth or learn.

As far as the article is concerned, I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find a way to connect with him.
 
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