Isaiah 17 war

My opinion about the Rapture is guided by my understanding of God's nature and the pattern that He has shown me in His behaviour. It is based on the logic of His nature and pattern. I've said that multiple time, but I'll explain it again. God ALWAYS, and without fail, provides a way for the righteous to escape His wrath when He pours it out. To Noah He gave the ark, to Lot He provided angels to lead him and his family out of Sodom and Gomorah, and to the children of Israel He gave Moses and through him the instruction they needed follow to escape His wrath. If we, as the righteous in Christ, are not given a means to escape the wrath of God then God's nature has changed. Since this is impossible, by God's own Word and promise, it is logical that an event like the rapture must take place. As for the seals before the trumpets? *sigh* fine. I've explained this too, even given the chapter of Revelation where you can find it but fine.Revelation Chapter 8:verses 1 and 2.The trumpets come chronologically after the seals.

Funny not one time did he fly them outta here and your Rev 8;1 and two proves exactly what I said the trumpets start the actionwhatever believe what you like you have an opinion and no scripture to back you up. Im really not interested in debating your opinions. This is a bible study site and there is no rapture in the Bible You have a good day and good luck on your waiting for your rapture.

I'd like to thank you as well. I'd like to thank you for showing me the arrogance that can be bread when someone doesn't reason through their faith. Logic and faith are not antithesis to each other. I've explained several times how I came to my conclusions through faith, logic and reason. You, howeverm have only told me you were right without once explaining the reasoning you used to get there. Jesus said "come now and let us reason together." That's what I've been trying to do. I want to know how you reasoned your way, through faith and logic to believe as you do. God may not have "flown them out of there", to use your words, but the fact remains that they were given an escape. That is Gospel Truth found in the word of the Living God. As I said, I am the mountain and I will not be moved.As for your claim that the verses I mentioned help your case, well you are mistaken. The context of the word "and" when used as it is in this case denotes a sequential event. Meaning an event that takes place after a previous event.This happened; and I saw this happe, and I saw this happen.1 and 2 and 3. Sequential events, one after the other. First the seals, and then the trumpets and then the bowls.

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God has not, does not and will not allow the righteous to be punished alongside the wicked. He's never done it before and if He allows it during the Tribulation then His nature has changed, which is impossible.
A soul is no longer "righteous" if he/she has taken the mark of the beast, even if it was done unknowingly. That is why He goes to such lengths to warn you against the apostasy of end times. :naughty:What is that apostasy? What can make someone that has loved God all their life suddenly follow Satan? ........Whirlwind

I think you fail to see my point. If God is both Just and True as He says He then the righteous MUST be given a means to escape the wrath that comes with the Great Tribulation. The righteous faithful won't BE here to receive the mark if the escape is provided. That's my entire point. You're comment doesn't hold up because the people left behind won't be among the righteous faithful. To those that remain they must either accept the mark or be hunted, arrested, tortured and executed by beheading. During this time there will be those who come to Christ and God and will receive special rewards for being martyred during this time. The 144,000 are also a special case as they are from the 12 tribes of Judah, i.e. the children of Israel.My point still holds true.

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I'd like to thank you as well. I'd like to thank you for showing me the arrogance that can be bread when someone doesn't reason through their faith. Logic and faith are not antithesis to each other. I've explained several times how I came to my conclusions through faith, logic and reason. You, howeverm have only told me you were right without once explaining the reasoning you used to get there. Jesus said "come now and let us reason together." That's what I've been trying to do. I want to know how you reasoned your way, through faith and logic to believe as you do. God may not have "flown them out of there", to use your words, but the fact remains that they were given an escape. That is Gospel Truth found in the word of the Living God. As I said, I am the mountain and I will not be moved.As for your claim that the verses I mentioned help your case, well you are mistaken. The context of the word "and" when used as it is in this case denotes a sequential event. Meaning an event that takes place after a previous event.This happened; and I saw this happe, and I saw this happen.1 and 2 and 3. Sequential events, one after the other. First the seals, and then the trumpets and then the bowls.
You obviously cant tell the difference between one who follows the Word and arrogance I can not and will change the Word to suit you. If you call that arrogance so be it you are the one who seems to have all the answers yet funny your answers are not in Gods word. You are spouting the lies men a theroy over Gods Word. Your opinion over Gods word and you call me arrogant. Have you ever read 2 Thess 2 to see when this gathering occurs its after Antichrist 5th/6th trump not before but hey what does Paul know compared to you.You claim you have so much faith yet you have not enough to believe God will protect his own as he has always done No you have to listen to men to devise a rapture theroy the blashamous belief that God can not protect his own without flying them away forget he says he hates those that teach his children this fly away doctrine.

My sole problem is that you won't explain to me how you came to YOUR conclusion other than "well this is what it says".http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...-17;&version=9;That is the scripture that backs me up. I'll admit to having needed to look it up. I have been trying to see the reasoning process you used to come to where you believe as you do.Also I've never once said that God cannot protect His own. Please don't insult me by implying that I did. What I have repeatedly said is that it is God's nature to provide an escape from His wrath to the righteous. It has always been His nature and it will always be His nature. Unless you're saying that God punishes the righteous alongside the guilty. If so how can He claim to be just?

Yes fine when does this happen read 2 Thess 2 Paul will tell you exactly when After Satan :the man of sin the son of perdition comes so when does he come at the 5th/6th trump. I wont explain what are you talking about I have given you Gods Word what is my explanation next to his. He tells you he(true Christ) comes at the seventh trump not beforehe also tells you not to be confused by any letter or talk or rumors that there will be no gathering untill after the coming of Satan which is the first tribulation.How much clearer can he make it to you ?

If you don't want to reason together about this that's fine. I have a different interpretation of what you're talking about and I'm cool with it. If God thought I was wrong the Holy Spirit would convict me of it. I'm hardly confused on this issue or on the issue of my Christianity.I've examined other beliefs and always found them wanting. I've looked at other ways of thinking and tried to teach myself by reading and comparing and asking questions. I'm not about to stop now. Asking questions, especially difficult ones, and prayer is the only way to come to a logical conclusion. Like I said, if you don't want to share your own process by which you came to your conclusions, that's fine.

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I think you fail to see my point.
Perhaps I did...if so please accept my apology.
If God is both Just and True as He says He then the righteous MUST be given a means to escape the wrath that comes with the Great Tribulation. The righteous faithful won't BE here to receive the mark if the escape is provided. That's my entire point.
Of course God is both Just and True but in no place did He tell us that we wouldn't be here...quite the contrary actually. He did say:1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.The only ones on earth that "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are us, Jews and Christians. Our Jewish brothers keep God's Commandments.....we do too and have the testimony of Christ. How can the dragon make war with us if we are not here?The escape He provided everyone is His Word. We are to put on the gospel armour:Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.12.For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.13.Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.What is that "evil day?" Would it be necessary for us to withstand that "evil day" in heaven? Is that why we should put on the gospel armour?
You're comment doesn't hold up because the people left behind won't be among the righteous faithful. To those that remain they must either accept the mark or be hunted, arrested, tortured and executed by beheading. During this time there will be those who come to Christ and God and will receive special rewards for being martyred during this time. The 144,000 are also a special case as they are from the 12 tribes of Judah, i.e. the children of Israel.
Everyone will be here....the righteous and the unrighteous. No one will be beheaded or tortured. It is a time of deception not mutilation. The 144,000 are His chosen. Do you believe He would leave them on earth and take others?
My point still holds true.
.........Whirlwind

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If you don't want to reason together about this that's fine. I have a different interpretation of what you're talking about and I'm cool with it. If God thought I was wrong the Holy Spirit would convict me of it. I'm hardly confused on this issue or on the issue of my Christianity.
The problem with that is everyone believes they are right. Why would the Holy Spirit guide you and not them? We must keep searching and be open to instruction from His word....all of us.
I've examined other beliefs and always found them wanting. I've looked at other ways of thinking and tried to teach myself by reading and comparing and asking questions. I'm not about to stop now. Asking questions, especially difficult ones, and prayer is the only way to come to a logical conclusion.
I agree.From another post -
My sole problem is that you won't explain to me how you came to YOUR conclusion other than "well this is what it says".http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...17;&version=9;That is the scripture that backs me up. I'll admit to having needed to look it up. I have been trying to see the reasoning process you used to come to where you believe as you do.
Most men that teach rapture use those verses [1 Thess.4:14-17] but they shouldn't. The subject of those verses is found in vs.13 and it is about where the dead are....it has nothing to do with anyone being raptured.Apparently others were also confused by Paul's words and he clarified it in his next letter to the Thessalonians:11Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,2.That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3.Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,The day we gather back to Christ WILL NOT COME until after the son of perdition - Satan is here. If anyone was honest and I am speaking about those that teach rapture.....they should quote those verses when they use the 1 Thess. 4:14-17 scriptures. There will be no rapture!.........Whirlwind

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Hi the church will not be in the tribulation, it will not go througth judgement it is the bride of christ. We cant talk about the Isaiah war when people do not even know where the Rapture fits into gods plan.
Who are these?Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"14.And I said unto him, "sir thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb........Whirlwind

That passage refers to the people who come to God during the Tribulation period. The Church will not be here, nor will the Holy Spirit. God removes them both from the equation, as it was in the Old Testament.

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That passage refers to the people who come to God during the Tribulation period. The Church will not be here, nor will the Holy Spirit. God removes them both from the equation, as it was in the Old Testament.
Please explain how God removed someone, "as it was in the Old Testament." I don't understand.Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands: and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.The only way they could have "taken the mark of or worshipped the beast" would be if they were there when the beast was. These are those that "washed their robes" during the tribulation. If what you are saying is true then the "church" (and I am beginning to like that word less and less) is special. God will fly them away while leaving others on earth to fight THEIR battle for them. Those others include the 144,000 of His chosen people. What makes the "church" so special? And....if the "church" is so special where are they when those that fought the battle on earth are with Christ for the 1,000 years?.........Whirlwind

Everyone will be required to take the mark. Anyone who doesn't will be hunted down and put to death. That's in the Bible, the Book of Revelation if memory serves. The verses you're refering to don't just refer to believers who took the mark. I'll try to explain this again.In the Old Testament whenever God poured out His wrath upon the wicked, the righteous in His eyes were always granted a means of escaping that wrath. In Noah's case it was the ark, in Lots it was in the form of two angels leading him and his family from the cities of Sodom and Gomorah. Knowing this, I am confident that God will rapture the Church away before He dispenses His wrath upon the world.Also in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit didn't move as it does now. It fell upon indiviuals as the Spirit of the Lord. After Christ all followers of the Christ had the Holy Spirit within them. During the Great Tribulation this will be removed from the world and it will be as in the days of the Old Testament. The Spirit falling upon only the chosen of God for a specific purpose to glorify Him in the midst of the darkness.

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Everyone will be required to take the mark. Anyone who doesn't will be hunted down and put to death. That's in the Bible, the Book of Revelation if memory serves.
No one will be put to death, as in physically killed. Death is one of Satan's names....he has many. The scripture you are thinking of may be:Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to deathThat sounds really frightening until you read a following verse. It just means we will be put before Satan for a testimony:18.But there shall not an hair of your head perish.No one will be put to (physical) death. Some will be delivered before Satan and to believe in him is spiritual death.
The verses you're refering to don't just refer to believers who took the mark. I'll try to explain this again.In the Old Testament whenever God poured out His wrath upon the wicked, the righteous in His eyes were always granted a means of escaping that wrath. In Noah's case it was the ark, in Lots it was in the form of two angels leading him and his family from the cities of Sodom and Gomorah. Knowing this, I am confident that God will rapture the Church away before He dispenses His wrath upon the world.
Thank you for that explanation. I must disagree. As I have explained before the "way out," the "means of escape," is to understand what will happen in the end of days. It is to know that Satan comes first pretending to be Christ. We escape wrath because we do not fall for Satan's lies. We won't believe he is going to rapture us.....we will wait for the true Saviour.Hosea 4:6 My People are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Also in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit didn't move as it does now. It fell upon indiviuals as the Spirit of the Lord. After Christ all followers of the Christ had the Holy Spirit within them. During the Great Tribulation this will be removed from the world and it will be as in the days of the Old Testament. The Spirit falling upon only the chosen of God for a specific purpose to glorify Him in the midst of the darkness.
Please tell me where you read that. Where does it say the Holy Spirit will be removed during the tribulation. My understanding of scripture tells me the opposite. The following is Christ telling us what will happen during the tribulation....we will be here.Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.13.And it shall turn to you for a testimony.14.Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:15.For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.That is the time when one of God's elect can commit the "unpardonable sin."Luke 12:10. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.11.And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:12.For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."The Holy Spirit will be here. We will be here. No one will fly away........Whirlwind

So you choose Men over God you preach a false doctrine of men and SatanYou got plenty of opinions and insults funny you can not present any scripturethis thread is about Isa. if you got nothing to say on it I will close it your opinions are not of any concern to us.Our doctrine is of God read the scripture 2 Thessalonians 2The Man of Lawlessness 1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. If you dont know scripture well enough to know when Christ returns I suggest you study his word rather than listen to Men 5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.Stand Firm 13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[c] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 16May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

Here why dont you study for youself instead of lies of men and threats you follow a false doctrinehttp://www.mt.net/~watcher/nopretrb.htmlhttp://revlu.com/rap.htmlhttp://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/rev14.htmlhttp://www.biblestudygames.com/bible...fthechurch.htmhttp://www.pbministries.org/Eschatol...s/smith_01.htmhttp://www.out-of-zion.com/rapture.htmMathew 24:9 Then they will deliver YOU up to TRIBULATION and KILL you and you will be hated by all nations for my names sake 24:13 But he who endures to the END will be saved Notice it doesnt say he who flys away