Is Hell Eternal?

Madad21 · Sep 5, 2014

Enquirer said:
For all those opposed to Hell being eternal, all I ask is one Scripture to prove it, just one.
Show me where the Bible says that someday, whenever, a person will be released from Hell.
That's not much is it ?

Universals have another way around this by their theory of "Age-abiding" in favor of the literal Greek or Hebrew translations of eternal apparently not meaning eternal as we see it but rather an age that comes to a conclusion at some point see the YLT below.

Revelation 14:11 (KJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 14:11 (YLT)
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

logabe · Sep 6, 2014

Enquirer said:
For all those opposed to Hell being eternal, all I ask is one Scripture to prove it, just one.
Show me where the Bible says that someday, whenever, a person will be released from Hell.
That's not much is it ?

1st Cor. 15:22 says,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Col. 1:20 says,

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having
made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say,
whether things on earth or things in heaven.

1st Tim. 4:10 says,

10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed
our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially
of believers.

Ps. 2:8 says,

8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

Ps. 22:27 says,

22 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Madad21 · Sep 6, 2014

logabe said:
1st Cor. 15:22 says,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Col. 1:20 says,

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having
made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say,
whether things on earth or things in heaven.

1st Tim. 4:10 says,

10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed
our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially
of believers.

Ps. 2:8 says,

8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

Ps. 22:27 says,

22 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

None of that answers his question dude.

This Vale Of Tears · Sep 6, 2014

Enquirer said:
For all those opposed to Hell being eternal, all I ask is one Scripture to prove it, just one.
Show me where the Bible says that someday, whenever, a person will be released from Hell.
That's not much is it ?

So far not one person on this thread has taken a position against hell being eternal. So I have to ask who you're addressing?

Madad21 · Sep 6, 2014

This Vale Of Tears said:
So far not one person on this thread has taken a position against hell being eternal. So I have to ask who you're addressing?

Enquirer just wants to rumble, let a man air will ya!!

logabe · Sep 7, 2014

Madad21 said:
None of that answers his question dude.

Sure it does Madad... If Adam brought every human being down by his disobedience, surely
Jesus can one day make them alive by his obedience, or does the 1st Adam have more power
than the Last Adam? Could you give me your position on that statement?

My point is, if Jesus is going to make all alive... then where will hell be? I think there will be no
need for it anymore. Hell is for dead people, but Paul said, the last enemy that will be destroyed
is death (1st Cor. 15:26).

26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

When the Lake of Fire has completed it's purpose there will be no more need for it. What does
that have to do with this subject? The Lake of Fire is the 2nd Death... which some say will
never be destroyed. I prefer to listen to Paul and believe that the 2nd Death will be eliminated.

The other scriptures above speak the same thing if you have ears to hear and eyes to see it.
God is going to reconcile all things to himself (Col. 1:20).

1st Tim. 4:10, Paul says, Jesus is the Savior of all men, but he doesn't stop there, he says,
especially those that believe. In other words, the ones that believe will benefit more than the
ones that didn't believe, but they will all be reconciled after they have been through the Lake of
Fire.

David said, the very ends of the earth shall be your possession. To understand what David
is saying, we must know the purpose and plan of God, which is, all the ends of the earth shall
remember and turn unto the Lord. In order for that scripture to do us any good we have to
believe it and begin to walk in it.

Hell (the grave) is temporary, the Lake of Fire (the 2nd Death) is temporary, but do I want to go
to either one?

NO... a thousand times NO!!! But I can tell someone who's son has blown their brains out that God
will raise him, and correct him, because Jesus made a way where there seemed to be way... He's the
one that created the Lake of Fire for that very reason.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

This Vale Of Tears · Sep 7, 2014

Oops, I was wrong, Enquirer. We managed to find one Universalist here.

Madad21 · Sep 7, 2014

This Vale Of Tears said:
Oops, I was wrong, Enquirer. We managed to find one Universalist here.

yup and now Im asking myself if I can really be bothered going through all this again. all yours Enquirer

Enquirer · Sep 7, 2014

Madad21 said:
Enquirer just wants to rumble, let a man air will ya!!

Thanks man ... I feel a spiritual fight coming on ... help me Jesus, help me

This Vale Of Tears · Sep 7, 2014

It's not anything new, just yet another misguided Christian eclectically picking through the Bible to find any verse that supports their view. You won't hear them quote the Bible when it says Jesus will save HIS PEOPLE from their sins,(Matthew 1:21) or where it says many, not all, will be saved (1Corinthians 10:33, Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45, 14:24, Romans 8:29, Hebrews 2:10, 9:28). This practice shows contempt for the holy Scriptures and demonstrates that doctrine is a higher priority than truth.

Thunderkat · Sep 7, 2014

The thing I have always wondered is why doesn't God just erase the souls instead of sending them to Hell?

This Vale Of Tears · Sep 7, 2014

Because it would be wrong to efface man who is made in God's image. We were created as eternal beings and will continue to exist as such.

Webers_Home · Sep 8, 2014

Thunderkat said:
The thing I have always wondered is why doesn't God just erase the souls
instead of sending them to Hell?

There is some confusion abroad over this issue; because of this statement:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather,
be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt
10:28)

In other words; the "hell" in that verse kills both the body and the soul.

The hell in Jesus' statement isn't the same hell as the one spoken of in Luke
16:19-31. That one is the koiné Greek word haides (hah'-dace) whereas the
one in Matt 10:28 is geena (gheh'-en-nah) which is the word for hell at Mark
9:47-48 where Jesus said their worm never dies nor is the fire ever
quenched.

Jesus' reference was to Isa 66:23-24 where God stated:

"All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month
to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who
have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die,
and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view
them with utter horror."

I take it then, that when people undergo execution in the reservoir of
flaming sulfur depicted at Rev 20:11-15, both their bodies and their souls
will be terminated; but according to Mark 9:47-48 and Isa 66:23-24 their
dead bodies won't be erased. Instead; they will be preserved as perpetual
nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm. What is to become of
their dead souls I don't really know for sure; but whatever the circumstances
of their dead souls' disposal, I doubt the circumstances will be any less
unpleasant than the disposal of their dead bodies.

Buen Camino
/

Thunderkat · Sep 8, 2014

Webers_Home said:
There is some confusion abroad over this issue; because of this statement:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather,
be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt
10:28)

In other words; the "hell" in that verse kills both the body and the soul.

The hell in Jesus' statement isn't the same hell as the one spoken of in Luke
16:19-31. That one is the koiné Greek word haides (hah'-dace) whereas the
one in Matt 10:28 is geena (gheh'-en-nah) which is the word for hell at Mark
9:47-48 where Jesus said their worm never dies nor is the fire ever
quenched.

Jesus' reference was to Isa 66:23-24 where God stated:

"All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month
to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who
have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die,
and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view
them with utter horror."

I take it then, that when people undergo execution in the reservoir of
flaming sulfur depicted at Rev 20:11-15, both their bodies and their souls
will be terminated; but according to Mark 9:47-48 and Isa 66:23-24 their
dead bodies won't be erased. Instead; they will be preserved as perpetual
nourishment for a curious species of fire-proof worm. What is to become of
their dead souls I don't really know for sure; but whatever the circumstances
of their dead souls' disposal, I doubt the circumstances will be any less
unpleasant than the disposal of their dead bodies.

Buen Camino
/

Ok here is how I see it:

1. You are very knowledgeable on the Bible.
2. That is really scary to think about...even for a military guy.

Webers_Home · Sep 8, 2014

Thunderkat said:
2. That is really scary to think about...even for a military guy.

I was in the 101st Airborne Division during the Cuban missile crisis back in
1962. We were fully combat ready to be on C-130 aircraft within one
hour with parachutes headed for Cuba. I was only 18 and the prospect of
death at such a young age made me very nervous. But as scary as that was,
the description of hell provided by Isa 66:23-24, Mark 9:47-48, and Rev
20:11-15 is a much worse prospect.

Buen Camino
/

KingJ · Sep 11, 2014

This Vale Of Tears said:
Originally posted by me: http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads/3168-Is-Hell-Eternal?s=c1bae3dbc9269787318ea3353a2690e3 I am saintmichaeldefendthem.

No I haven't become a Universal Salvationist.

And yes I know the teaching of my church and that of most mainline Protestant denominations.

My question doesn't dismiss the well entrenched doctrines and supporting scriptures that characterize hell as eternal in nature. Every bit of that can be true, but it can also not be the final word on the subject. I certainly don't question the justice by which God can hold true to his promise and carry out his just sentence upon the unregenerate in every detail. God is holy and there is no unrighteousness in him.

My question pertains specifically to people who, by all accounts, were deceived, not the fallen angels who deceived them in full lucidity of the consequences of their actions. My question pertains just to people, created Imago Dei and just a little lower than the angels, whom God so loved that he came in the form of us, dwelt amongst us, and died for our sins in hopes that all men would be saved.

I would state emphatically that God has every right to carry out his sentence, but I also note the many times where he hasn't. He decreed 490 years of captivity upon Israel at the hands of the Babylonians, yet brings them out of exile 7 years early. He scattered the Jews among the many nations, and yet makes way for them to eventually become a nation again and showers his favor upon them during the intervening centuries. So my question is, is there room for parole in God's system of final judgment?

Time and time again, I see God's justice wrought upon those who practice unrighteousness, but time and time again, I also see that Mercy has the final word. As you can quickly gather and as I said from the start, the teachings of the Catholic Church and the beliefs of most Protestants aren't undone by this question. To teach the eternity of reprobation is to teach the truth right from holy Scripture but I think it cannot eliminate the possibility that God will go back on his word and eventually spare those suffering the torments of hell and offer them another chance to receive his love. It certainly is within his proven character to do so.

Please don't jump all over me, you Bible thumping fundamentalists! I'm just asking a question.

Your question and line of thinking is logical and reasonable. I believe that with God there are two attributes of His that are constantly clashing with each other. His goodness / love vs His hatred for sin / wickedness. We see His dilemma causing indecisiveness in Luke 22:42.

His hatred for sin caused Him to sweat blood. Causes Him to be 'pleased' when He bruised Jesus. His love caused Him to die / give up the greatest gift He could for us.

Then we also see how God has never shown hatred or disrespect to ANY of His creation. He gave the devil and fallen angels the time of day to be 1. Heard / tempt Him and 2. Have their requests honored (cast into pigs). As you also pointed out on the rich man being able to have a conversation with God in Hades.

So the evidence suggests that God will go to the ends of the earth to find a way to justify the wicked and return them to His presence. If He can confidently say in scripture that the devil and many humans will be tormented for eternity. It simply translates into the fact that they really are beyond hope in the sense that they really do not ever want to serve / humble themselves to God / goodness / selflessness.

I believe that if the devil / all the wicked....never had intentions of hurting us, abusing us, ruling over us...God would tolerate them in heaven. But reality is that wickedness leads to these things eventually. Kind of like the logic of a person in mortal sin being capable of any venial / lessor mortal sin.

I do not believe God will make them suffer for eternity. I believe 100% in temporary suffering. Judge according to works = temporary suffering. 2 years thief, 25 years murderer. All who have a useable brain can grasp stealing hurts someone and that stealing < murder.

I believe that God will make life as nice as possible for the wicked. The desire in you and I to help the wicked / see them better off is from God. But nice as possible can never include animals to be tortured and such. Nice as possible in my mind can only be nice flowers. Nice water supply. Ie no good living being with them. Making the eternity in hell a kind of inevitable eternal torment as.....your neighbor, president, shop keeper are all selfish, wicked beings. Matt 25:32 I give this verse to my atheist dad all the time in hope that he grasps separation of lambs and wolves is the logical conclusion at the end of the day.
So, the bottom line is. That God WILL NOT stop / hold any of us back from doing whatever nice things we want to, to those in torment in hell.

I will organize controlled sporting events for them. I will find those I knew on Earth and give them candy / their favorite foods daily. Will God stop me??? from doing good deeds that come from the heart He gave me??? :wub: .

Thunderkat said:
The thing I have always wondered is why doesn't God just erase the souls instead of sending them to Hell?

Erasing them would be evil. Sure a lessor evil then eternal torture, but still an evil. God is NOT evil.

I do not believe any who go to hell want to actually be erased. If they do, God will be guilty of a greater evil. God is NOT evil.

This Vale Of Tears · Sep 12, 2014

KingJ, I love your take on this and I certainly think you have a good feel for the heart of God in bringing finality even to hell so that mercy has the final word. I don't think it will be pleasant for people in hell, for God's presence will not be there and people, apart from God, cannot love, have compassion, enjoy beauty, or have peace. Hebrews 3 indicates very strongly that those who don't enter God's rest will enter restlessness by default. People will be, as alluded to in Romans 1, accused by their own conscience, only in hell it will be without mitigation. Here in this life people don't face who they really are. We drink, do drugs, tell lies to ourselves, or just simply don't think about it, the terrible things we've done. But in hell all lies are silenced once and for all and people will live in the truth, unable to turn away from it. That's hell. And I think that murderers have it even worse. Jesus alludes repeatedly to the worm that dies not, and the burrowing maggot is a painful antagonist plaguing the damned murderer.

Will people be burning, but never burnt up as many speculate? No, not at all. People will be tormented by their past, but won't be tortured beyond that, for God is not cruel. Certainly in the parable of Lazareth and the Rich Man, the man who was in hell could, even amidst the torments of unrelenting heat, thirst, and discomfort, carry out a cognitive conversation. He wasn't writhing and screaming in pitched agony as would be expected of somebody aflame.

But most of all, I agree with you. As Jesus said, "you will never get out until you have paid the last penny", which I believe doesn't just apply to Purgatory, but to hell as well. I see Scripture strongly supporting this.

logabe · Sep 12, 2014

This Vale Of Tears said:
Oops, I was wrong, Enquirer. We managed to find one Universalist here.

Do we want TRUTH or do we want to preserve our little doctrines? I guess you are saying
I am a Universalist because I believe that Jesus has the power to save all people, and he will
reconcile all people in the end. Is that right? Well... I have good news for you this morning...
I'm not, so I have the freedom to say what I feel the Spirit is saying to me. I would like you,
or maybe someone else can explain Rom. 5:19 for me.

19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were
made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the
many will be made righteous.

How many were made sinners? Paul said, all have sinned and come short of the glory
of God (Rom. 3:23). So we have established in these two scriptures that Paul was referring
to everybody when he spoke of the many. I think we can all agree with that. Through Adam's
one act, the many (everybody) were made sinners. Adam had the power to cause all humanity
to fall into vanity.

What we don't agree on is... does Jesus have the power by that righteous act performed on the
cross to make "the many" righteous. Can the blood of Jesus Christ continue to reconcile, even
after physical death? We need to talk about this? This is very important because I was taught for
over 30 years that after death the Blood of Jesus has no power.

In other words, if you died a liar you were going to hell forever. If you were hungry, and you stole
a loaf of bread you were going to hell forever. If you were a homosexual you were really going to
hell forever.

What I believe is God will deal with every human being that has ever lived in the ages to come.
That is how God will make the many righteous. The ones that didn't allow Jesus to cover their sins
in this Age will be cast into the Lake of Fire for correction, but some will be corrected in their lifetime.

It will be a lot better for the person that learns righteousness now, but if he/she doesn't learn in this
life, God will not throw them away, but He will come and correct them so they can also enjoy the
power of the Blood of Jesus. Give me scripture... 1st Cor. 15:22 says,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 but every man in his own order:

I gave you my answer and I would love to hear your answer so we can come together and learn from
each other.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

This Vale Of Tears · Sep 12, 2014

logabe said:
Do we want TRUTH or do we want to preserve our little doctrines? I guess you are saying
I am a Universalist because I believe that Jesus has the power to save all people, and he will
reconcile all people in the end. Is that right? Well... I have good news for you this morning...
I'm not, so I have the freedom to say what I feel the Spirit is saying to me. I would like you,
or maybe someone else can explain Rom. 5:19 for me.

19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were
made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the
many will be made righteous.

How many were made sinners? Paul said, all have sinned and come short of the glory
of God (Rom. 3:23). So we have established in these two scriptures that Paul was referring
to everybody when he spoke of the many. I think we can all agree with that. Through Adam's
one act, the many (everybody) were made sinners. Adam had the power to cause all humanity
to fall into vanity.

What we don't agree on is... does Jesus have the power by that righteous act performed on the
cross to make "the many" righteous. Can the blood of Jesus Christ continue to reconcile, even
after physical death? We need to talk about this? This is very important because I was taught for
over 30 years that after death the Blood of Jesus has no power.

In other words, if you died a liar you were going to hell forever. If you were hungry, and you stole
a loaf of bread you were going to hell forever. If you were a homosexual you were really going to
hell forever.

What I believe is God will deal with every human being that has ever lived in the ages to come.
That is how God will make the many righteous. The ones that didn't allow Jesus to cover their sins
in this Age will be cast into the Lake of Fire for correction, but some will be corrected in their lifetime.

It will be a lot better for the person that learns righteousness now, but if he/she doesn't learn in this
life, God will not throw them away, but He will come and correct them so they can also enjoy the
power of the Blood of Jesus. Give me scripture... 1st Cor. 15:22 says,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 but every man in his own order:

I gave you my answer and I would love to hear your answer so we can come together and learn from
each other.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

We're actually not that far apart, but in another sense, we're miles apart. My contention is with those who think consequences for our choices will be wiped away with a magic wand. There is a price to pay for our actions even if it eventually results in our salvation. "Enter through the narrow gate" as Jesus says, is very illuminating, but in it is the implication that there's more than one gate, though the narrow gate leads directly to life, but the broad road takes the path of destruction, misery, and ruin. This passage in Matthew 7 is often construed as a few making it to eternal life while the vast majority go to eternal perdition, but a closer examination indicates this is not an accurate interpretation.

Where we are miles apart is in the smugness by which universalists assert that God will save everyone, when in fact, contrary to my speculations, God can carry out the sentence prescribed in Scripture for the unrepentant sinner, which is eternal loss, and be perfectly justified in doing so. My own musings are based on the fact that God cut short the 490 year sentence pronounced upon recalcitrant Israel to be confined in captivity. God could have certainly required that the sentence be carried out in full, but He relented, which is His prerogative to do. Such a precedent leaves a glimmer of hope for the damned for eventual parole, but it certainly guarantees nothing.

logabe · Sep 13, 2014

This Vale Of Tears said:
We're actually not that far apart, but in another sense, we're miles apart. My contention is with those who think consequences for our choices will be wiped away with a magic wand. There is a price to pay for our actions even if it eventually results in our salvation. "Enter through the narrow gate" as Jesus says, is very illuminating, but in it is the implication that there's more than one gate, though the narrow gate leads directly to life, but the broad road takes the path of destruction, misery, and ruin. This passage in Matthew 7 is often construed as a few making it to eternal life while the vast majority go to eternal perdition, but a closer examination indicates this is not an accurate interpretation.

Where we are miles apart is in the smugness by which universalists assert that God will save everyone, when in fact, contrary to my speculations, God can carry out the sentence prescribed in Scripture for the unrepentant sinner, which is eternal loss, and be perfectly justified in doing so. My own musings are based on the fact that God cut short the 490 year sentence pronounced upon recalcitrant Israel to be confined in captivity. God could have certainly required that the sentence be carried out in full, but He relented, which is His prerogative to do. Such a precedent leaves a glimmer of hope for the damned for eventual parole, but it certainly guarantees nothing.

You right... that's why I'm not a Universalists. God isn't going to wave a magical wand and save everyone, but
God will use the Ages to come to correct the ones that didn't apply the Blood of Jesus in their lifetime. What we
haven't been taught properly is how God will judge an individual after he has been raised from the dead.

My point is, that person doesn't get away with anything, but he/she will have to go through a long correction to
pay the debt that he/she owes. For example, Paul said that the Law is weak (Rom. 8:3), all it could do was judge
and condemn the person's bad behavior. In other words, there was no forgiveness only condemnation. Also, if
a person killed two people the Law said, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, death for death. In this case all the man had
was one life. It was impossible for him to pay that debt, because the Law couldn't be satisfied in this circumstance.

Now... that's where the Ages come in. This man will be raised and will live two lifetimes in the carnal mind to pay
the debt of killing two people in his prior life. Through the wonderful righteous act of Jesus Christ on the cross this
man has the ability to pay his debt to society. He get's away with nothing, but he will be reconciled after he has
paid his last pence, and he will be accepted into the Kingdom of God.

We're not for off.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

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