Is Hell Eternal?

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This Vale Of Tears

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Jun 13, 2013
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MrKruback said:
Although I believe hell is eternal. I am not positive everyone who goes there, will spend eternity there. However, could any soul come back from something like that? I do not have scripture to back up my idea's like the rest of you, but I believed Hell for one person is not the same hell for another. I think it is because I never liked the idea that all sin's had the same punishment. As if on earth, all crimes would be life in prison. I know the way I want things, and the way they are are two different things, but I can always hope.
The deep philosophical question here is, can God go back on his word, relenting to carry out the full sentence of punishment that man incurs?

On this thread, I successfully made the case that He can and He has done so before.
 

Chuckt

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This Vale Of Tears said:
The deep philosophical question here is, can God go back on his word, relenting to carry out the full sentence of punishment that man incurs?

On this thread, I successfully made the case that He can and He has done so before.
I don't think God will repent and I think people will feel that God would lose all credibility to go back on His word..

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Ezekiel 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct42.htm
 

This Vale Of Tears

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Chuckt said:
I don't think God will repent and I think people will feel that God would lose all credibility to go back on His word..

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Ezekiel 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct42.htm
You're new to the thread and I can tell you haven't read it. I've already proven that God does indeed relent, allowing mercy even when divine retribution is well deserved. God didn't lose credibility when he cut short the Babylonian captivity. In fact, he was glorified.
 

KingJ

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Chuckt said:
I don't think God will repent and I think people will feel that God would lose all credibility to go back on His word..

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Ezekiel 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct42.htm
Same yesterday, today and forever = Good, merciful, longsuffering, not willing that any perish, never guilty of torture, loves enemies, gives them cloak and coat.

When Jesus said ''if it be thy will let this cup be removed, but if not, may your will be done'' what actually happened there?

Because Jesus is God......It was a conflict between God's love for us VS His hatred of sin. The cross proved that His love for His creation > hatred of sin. God sweat blood in anticipation of sin coming upon Him.

There is also the time with Jews in the desert and the golden calf. God wanted to destroy them all, Moses pleaded and He spared them.

God does not change, Amen! God is always good and looking for a way to justify, spare, save us.
 

Chuckt

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KingJ said:
Same yesterday, today and forever = Good, merciful, longsuffering, not willing that any perish, never guilty of torture, loves enemies, gives them cloak and coat.

When Jesus said ''if it be thy will let this cup be removed, but if not, may your will be done'' what actually happened there?

Because Jesus is God......It was a conflict between God's love for us VS His hatred of sin. The cross proved that His love for His creation > hatred of sin. God sweat blood in anticipation of sin coming upon Him.

There is also the time with Jews in the desert and the golden calf. God wanted to destroy them all, Moses pleaded and He spared them.

God does not change, Amen! God is always good and looking for a way to justify, spare, save us.
They all still died in the desert except for Joshua and Caleb. Not a good example in my opinion.

King James Bible
Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

http://biblehub.com/psalms/95-11.htm
This Vale Of Tears said:
You're new to the thread and I can tell you haven't read it. I've already proven that God does indeed relent, allowing mercy even when divine retribution is well deserved. God didn't lose credibility when he cut short the Babylonian captivity. In fact, he was glorified.
Although I took Western Civilization in college which covered the Middle Ages and although one of the authors was a Black Augustinian Monk, I choose to read the Bible.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

In other words, if you believe you will be saved and if you don't believe, you will be damned.

My hermeneutics say to interpret scripture from the easy to understand verses. Jesus said it plain, clear and in easy to understand language. I believe Him.


1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Are you mind, body and spirit? Jesus says not to believe every spirit. Do you mind if I say, "I don't believe you?"
 

KingJ

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Chuckt said:
They all still died in the desert except for Joshua and Caleb. Not a good example in my opinion.

You are skipping context and jumping straight to the ending. The context is very important to grasping God. It points to a God that relents. Shows mercy and longsuffering.

Consider Jonah. Did God waste His time sending Jonah? Did God not hope for the best?
 

Chuckt

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KingJ said:
You are skipping context and jumping straight to the ending. The context is very important to grasping God. It points to a God that relents. Shows mercy and longsuffering.

Consider Jonah. Did God waste His time sending Jonah? Did God not hope for the best?
I think God would have sent Jonah to Hell if he didn't repent but being threatened with hell is something that people aren't repenting from.
There was a lady in my Philosophy class that told everyone that she wants to go to hell because that is where all here friends will be.

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

I wonder why the generation of Ninevah would rise up against this generation or why Moses would be used to condemn the Pharisees if you think God is just going to forgive everyone in the end.

American King James Version
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuses you, even Moses, in whom you trust.

http://biblehub.com/john/5-45.htm

Why would they be condemned? Because they aren't in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What you're missing is the story in Revelation where God lets everyone out of Hell. If people were going to heaven, there would be no purpose for extremes like the book of Revelation and The Great Tribulation. There would be no purpose for the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah.
KingJ said:
You are skipping context and jumping straight to the ending. The context is very important to grasping God. It points to a God that relents. Shows mercy and longsuffering.

Consider Jonah. Did God waste His time sending Jonah? Did God not hope for the best?
When I have more time, I may be able to answer this better.

I was walking on the boardwalk in Atlantic City and they have a loudspeaker outside of one of their casinos and what I kept hearing on the loud speaker was "Come on in. You can repent later."

The reason for hell is to prevent horse thieves.
If you want to prevent horse thieves, letting someone off tells everyone that it is okay. You can have your cake and eat it too. You can steal because God will forgive you.

Really?

King James Bible
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Sin is eternal and sin needs to be infinitely punished or God can't be just.

And the big question is, if God is just going to forgive sin, why did Jesus have to be punished? Why didn't Jesus get forgiven and not have to suffer for us? If Jesus didn't get away with having your sin placed upon Him, what makes you think that if your sin wasn't placed upon him that you could have a second chance? I talked to militant atheists and even if heaven is true, they don't want to be there.
 

KingJ

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Chuckt said:
I think God would have sent Jonah to Hell if he didn't repent but being threatened with hell is something that people aren't repenting from.
There was a lady in my Philosophy class that told everyone that she wants to go to hell because that is where all here friends will be.

Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

I wonder why the generation of Ninevah would rise up against this generation or why Moses would be used to condemn the Pharisees if you think God is just going to forgive everyone in the end.

American King James Version
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuses you, even Moses, in whom you trust.

http://biblehub.com/john/5-45.htm

Why would they be condemned? Because they aren't in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What you're missing is the story in Revelation where God lets everyone out of Hell. If people were going to heaven, there would be no purpose for extremes like the book of Revelation and The Great Tribulation. There would be no purpose for the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah.
God is ultimate judge. Nineveh, Moses and whoever else is standing at anyone's judgment does not mean they are judge and executioner. They are merely witnesses.

I don't believe God will let anyone out of hell. I was just jumping on when you said God doesn't relent, He does.

The reason people will be in hell for eternity is not because God doesn't relent, but rather because they hate God / the light and love darkness. That is the verdict John 3:19.

That lady in your philosophy class just may prefer hell over heaven. She will be shocked when she grasps her friends are wolves though. God separates wolves and lambs / goat and sheep Matt 25. Wolves living with wolves = torment. A Paedophile with no innocent kids to molest = torment.
 

Chuckt

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KingJ said:
God is ultimate judge. Nineveh, Moses and whoever else is standing at anyone's judgment does not mean they are judge and executioner. They are merely witnesses.

I don't believe God will let anyone out of hell. I was just jumping on when you said God doesn't relent, He does.

The reason people will be in hell for eternity is not because God doesn't relent, but rather because they hate God / the light and love darkness. That is the verdict John 3:19.

That lady in your philosophy class just may prefer hell over heaven. She will be shocked when she grasps her friends are wolves though. God separates wolves and lambs / goat and sheep Matt 25. Wolves living with wolves = torment. A Paedophile with no innocent kids to molest = torment.
God doesn't really relent because I feel it is an anthropomorphism. If I said I was walking south on broad street and the wind was hitting me on my back but then the wind changed and was hitting me on my front, it would be because I changed direction that the wind changed. God is the same. When we turn, it seems that God repents but the fact is that God was always sending the wind south but we turned around and it sounds like God repented but God never changed though we did.

Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Malachi 3:6 "For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

I got this from another user:

Who actually "changes" in these events/Scriptures? God stays the same, while men turn themselves to rebel or to repent toward God. If you are in rebellion, what will that "consuming fire" feel like? If you repent, has God stopped being a "consuming fire?" But the things that happen are many times put into words, according to the order that men experience them.

1) Israelites rebel against God at foot of Mt Sinai. Moses intercedes (God uses means all the time in this world, and he decreed Moses' pleas), and God accepted him mediation. This is the classic text of Moses, mediator of the Old Covenant. Jesus is Mediator of the New. Does God keep "changing" his mind toward us when you and I sin? No, Jesus pleads for us. Are we to suppose that at the very foundational level, God was really going to wipe out Israel? End his plan of redemption? Start over with Moses? Surely he can do what he wants, and surely he could have done some inconceivable thing, and still caused his promises to come to fulfillment. But truth is, he wanted Moses to exercise the role of the mediator. So his "relenting" is no less a part of his plan than any other event that comes to pass.

2) David sins, and the nation is judged. First, David exercises a mediatorial role here. Again, the role of a mediator is exercised, the Messiah is foretold. And again, what does the completion of the judgment appear to men as? As "relenting". What does the end of the spanking I give my child appear as, to the child? As my "relenting". But as far as I was concerned, I simply gave the child as much as I decided he deserved.

3) Psalm 106--story of Israel once again. What the verse says is that God "relents" because of the "covenant love," because of the promises he's made, and that will not change. God disciplines his people to bring them into a right relation with him, to gain repentance. This kind of action doesn't actually help the case of the person who wants to say God changes. His discipline is the product of his unchangeableness.

4) Isaiah 14:6: irrelevant, or else expand on why? Because it was unrelenting, and now relented? Ask someone to explain how starting, continuing, and stopping activity "in" history, indicates changes "in" God.

5) Isaiah 57: false repentance (people change only outwardly, hypocriticaclly)--should God's aspect change, since they haven't changed in heart? God says 'No'.

6) Jer. 4: God says the judgment is coming, no amount of religious activity will change that; the people won't be repenting anyway.

7) Jer. 8: irrelevant again

8) Jer. 15: God won't relent. The situation posed is obviously hypothetical, neither Moses nor Samuel is alive to mediate. Their mediation wouldn't avail, God says. His judgment is coming. Who wants to say, contradicting Paul, that everything that happened to Israel was NOT part of God's decree, and that such events DIDN'T occur, and WEREN'T written down "for our instruction"? Just think of what we would NOT have for our instruction, if the exile HAD NOT happened. So, God is telling Jeremiah this is going to happen, period.

9) Jer. 18 & 26: Who changed? people, they repented.

10) Jer. 31: irrelevant, human repentance

11) Jer. 42:10--what? is God SORRY he punished evil? Of course not. Ridiculous. God's discipline ends. He expresses himself as we understand our own hearts, when we discipline our own children. Our own compassions bring the infliction to an eventual end. We relent.

12) Ezek. 24: How does a verse like this support the other position? It says "I won't relent." AND (!) it says that men are judged according to what they do, presumably including true repentance! So, is someone saying that God is unpredictable or predictable? Because if he's predictable, it means he doesn't change. Is someone saying that the Bible just contradicts itself?

13) Hosea 13: again, I think this is simply a mistaken inclusion.

14) Joel 2: repentance (change in people) produces a different aspect in their approach to God

15) Amos 7: Amos exercises mediatorship

16) Jonah: Ninevah (the people) repents. Why did God give them 40 days?



God remains still. He remains a fixed point, while we all like satellites, and the world and all its events whirl around and about. Predicating all of our changes upon God just shows how perverse we are, how willing we are for us to be the fixed point, or at least for us to bring God down to our level, to make him act like a man. But God himself says: "I am not a man, that I should repent." Whatever else we get from that comment, it is clear that human repentance/relenting is something utterly different and distinct from God's.
Will God relent?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Even in the rewards, there is Gold, silver, precious stones and wood hay and stubble. The idea that it is all grace means there would be all Gold but there isn't.

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Co&c=3&t=KJV#comm/12

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
 

KingJ

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Chuckt said:
God doesn't really relent because I feel it is an anthropomorphism. If I said I was walking south on broad street and the wind was hitting me on my back but then the wind changed and was hitting me on my front, it would be because I changed direction that the wind changed. God is the same. When we turn, it seems that God repents but the fact is that God was always sending the wind south but we turned around and it sounds like God repented but God never changed though we did.

Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Malachi 3:6 "For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

I got this from another user:
God is not like a wind that blows in one direction. God is always conflicted in His dealings with us Hatred of sin VS love of His creation. We see this conflict in Luke 22:42.

I agree God does not change. He does what pleases Him. Being conflicted pleases Him. Because it shows / proves that His love of creation > hatred of sin. The cross is proof of this. A cross on that road with the wind blowing South = God relents.
Chuckt said:
Will God relent?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Even in the rewards, there is Gold, silver, precious stones and wood hay and stubble. The idea that it is all grace means there would be all Gold but there isn't.

http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Co&c=3&t=KJV#comm/12

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Luke 12:47 and 48 says servants. Servants = Christians. Will we be beaten? Beaten < wood hay and stubble.

Beaten is probably our just reward. But nobody will get it in heaven.

Rewards = Gold, silver, wood hay and stubble. Everyone will have roads paved with gold. So clearly rewards are not literally gold.

Rewards will be something that does not creates envy or jealousy. It will be titles. Much like Mother Theresa will be given a title above us. Nobody would object!

Vengeance is mine, I will repay. Yes God does repay. What is worse then God realizing you don't want to repent and He has no choice but to put you with other wolves for eternity. God watched you EVERYDAY as you grew up from birth. He tolerates the evil for long, because He loves the evil. He doesn't want us imposing on His plans to save / spare and justify the wicked.
 

Chuckt

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I disagree and I already stated why. God no longer winks at sin and commands everyone to repent because He has an expectation.

Mark 11:12 ¶ And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
Mark 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Mark 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

Jesus cursed the fig tree because it beareth no fruit and we're called to repent.

KingJ said:
Vengeance is mine, I will repay. Yes God does repay. What is worse then God realizing you don't want to repent and He has no choice but to put you with other wolves for eternity. God watched you EVERYDAY as you grew up from birth. He tolerates the evil for long, because He loves the evil. He doesn't want us imposing on His plans to save / spare and justify the wicked.
I read the book of Revelation and it says over and over that they do not repent.

Revelation 2:21, Revelation 9:20, Revelation 16:9, Revelation 16:11

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
http://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/16-31.htm

And one rose from the dead.

Satan is the god of this world and if people don't swear allegiance to Christ then they belong to Satan. They weren't redeemed so the ownership is clear.
 

HearGod

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Chuckt said:
Good point.

Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world (aion) without end (aion). Amen.

http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G165&t=KJV

1.for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

It is an unbroken age which would mean hell is eternal.
Hi Chuckt,

This truth might hurt, and I sincerely hope you are not among those believers who fear the truth; those who love the glory/tradition of humans MORE THAN (loving both) the glory/son of God. (John 12:43 -- No offense intended!)

Re: KJV Usages of Strong's Concordance # G165 (Greek aion - a masculine noun)

You have provided the link to the KJV Lexicon of Strong's Number G165, and you have quoted the Strong's Outline of Biblical Usage, but you did not quote the Authorized KJV usages that are also mentioned therein. This masculine noun was translated/used by the Authorized KJV as:

ever (an adverb) - 71 times,
world (a masculine noun) - 38 times
never... (adverbially) - 6 times
evermore (adverb) - 4 times
age (a masculine noun) - 2 times
eternal (an adjective) - 2 times
world began (a noun + a verb, e.g. John 9:32) - 2 times
beginning of the world (a verb/noun + a noun, e.g. Acts 15:18) 2 times
world stands (a noun + a verb, 1Cor 8:13) - 1 time
course (a feminine noun, Ephesians 2:2) - 1 time
without end (a preposition + a noun, Ephesian 3:21) - 1 time

There should be a direct/hermeneutical/literal (or at the very least, a practical) English equivalent for this Koine Greek masculine noun. Given the above ridiculously laughable translations/renderings, I for one who takes God's words very seriously and cautiously, SHOULD NOT accept the Authorized KJV Translation as a/any Holy Bible of/from God. It is, in fact, a corrupted/bad man-made nonsense/joke book.

And since you are at Ephesians 3:21, it is anybody's guess based on the above KJV list of usages, no? God forbid! For examples:

Ephesians 3:21 (My rough cuts)

The glory (nominative/subject) [in] (or [with] or [to]) Him (dative/indirect object) in the ekklesia (dative/indirect object) and in Christ Yeshua (dative/indirect object) to (or toward)[SIZE=10pt] all the generations [/SIZE](accusative/direct object) [SIZE=10pt]of the [/SIZE](definite article)[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]aion[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE](a singular genitive mascuine noun) [SIZE=10pt]of the [/SIZE](definite article)[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]aions (a plural genitive mascuine noun)[SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

[SIZE=10pt]My take:[/SIZE]

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward [SIZE=10pt]all the generations of the aion [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt](or age) of the [/SIZE]aions[SIZE=10pt] (or ages). [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

Nonsense guesses:

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward [SIZE=10pt]all the generations of the ever[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the evers[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward[SIZE=10pt] all the generations of the world[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the worlds[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward [SIZE=10pt]all the generations of the never[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the nevers[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward[SIZE=10pt] all the generations of the evermore[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the evermores[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward [SIZE=10pt]all the generations of the eternal[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the eternals[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward[SIZE=10pt] all the generations of the world's beginning [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the worlds' beginnings[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward [SIZE=10pt]all the generations of the standing world[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the standing worlds[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward[SIZE=10pt] all the generations of the course[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the courses[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

The glory [with] Him in the ekklesia and in Christ Yeshua toward[SIZE=10pt] all the generations of the without end[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] of the without ends[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Amen[/SIZE].

Moreover, you might want [me] to move on to the next Strong's Concordance # G166 (Greek aionios - adjective) and continue laughing at the jokes therein. Or would you prefer to consult another Lexicon (say, NASB or NIV)?

Cheers bro!
 

Chuckt

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HearGod said:
You have provided the link to the KJV Lexicon of Strong's Number G165, and you have quoted Strong's Outline of Biblical Usage, but you did not quote the Authorized KJV Usages that are also mentioned therein. This masculine noun was translated/used by the Authorized KJV as:
I provided a link.

Using a Lexicon to learn Greek is not what professors do. My friend teaches Greek and he teaches his students to throw away their Concordances.

Using a concordance to make your own truth is not what Bible interpretation is about. All translations are interpretations and yours is an interpretation.
HearGod said:
Nonsense guesses:
If they are nonsense guesses then why should I have to listen to nonsense? You set yourself up for this one.
 

HearGod

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Chuckt said:
I provided a link.

Using a Lexicon to learn Greek is not what professors do. My friend teaches Greek and he teaches his students to throw away their Concordances.

Using a concordance to make your own truth is not what Bible interpretation is about. All translations are interpretations and yours is an interpretation.


If they are nonsense guesses then why should I have to listen to nonsense? You set yourself up for this one.
Hi again,

I shall rest my case/discussion with you on this "aion" word since you are somewhat implying to withdraw your mistaken Concordance of your Post #59. It is evidently obvious that most, if not all, of the corrupted/confusing usages of the Strong's Concordance and the Authorized KJV Lexicon you posted/provided were absurdly funny.

Btw, could you please find out from your Greek teacher (whom represents all professors?) friend how he would translate the Koine Greek noun, "aion" into English?

Cheerio!
 

Chuckt

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http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20584-is-hell-eternal/?p=238216

post # 52


I've been reading "Word Studies in the Greek New Testament" (Volume III) by Dr. Kenneth Wuest who was one of the NASB translators and was also a professor of Greek.

He quotes Moulton and Milligan's "Vocabulary of the Greek Testament", Grimm-Thayer, Webster's International Dictionary, Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Gree, by Herman Cremer, D.D., the LXX, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D., Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (classical).

Wuest says "Matthew 25:41 tells us that this everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. The word 'prepared' in the Greek is in the perfect tense, which tense speaks of a past complete action that has present results."-p.40 (second section of books bundled together in one book)

Wuest also writes "As to Mark 3:29, the best Greek texts have 'sin' instead of 'damnation,' which latter word appears in the A.V., as translation of a Greek word meaning 'judgment," and which is a rejected reading. The words 'in danger of' are from a Greek word which refers to anyone 'held in anything so that he cannot escape.' Thus the one who committed the sin referred to in this passage in the grasp of an eternal sin, the sin being eternal, not in the sense of eternally repeating itself, but in that it is eternal in its guilt. Such a sin demands eternal punishment. In II Thessalonians 1:9 we have 'everlasting destruction.' The Greek word translated 'destruction' does not mean 'annihilation.' Moulton and Milligan define its first century Biblical usage as follows: 'ruin, the loss of all that gives worth to existence.' Thayer in his lexicon gives the meanings 'ruin, destruction, death.' The word comes from the verb meaning 'to destroy.' But to destroy something does not mean to put it out of existence, but to ruin it, to reduce it to such form that it loses all that gave worth to its existence. One may burn down a beautiful mansion. The materials which composed it are still in existence, a heap of ashes, but it is in such form that it has lost all that gave worth to its existence as a mansion. The eternal condition in which the soul lives forever in a state devoid of all that makes existence worthwhile."-p. 41
 

StanJ

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Time was created by God, along with the universe, our world and ALL the laws of physics. God does not nor has He ever intended to eliminate time. His provision for us, gives us Eternal Life. That is IN time. Ergo eternal punishment will be just that, being punished for eternity. Succinctly, that does not mean hell is eternal, because it isn't, but eternal punishment and separation from God is.
 

logabe

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KingJ said:
Matt 15:18 But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them and John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil, both point to a chosen nature. Something that cannot be corrected without over riding the individuals free will.
Which would be evil of God
You need to rethink that one. Did God do evil when He struck down Paul on the road to
Damascus?

.


Sin does not get us into hell. Absence of sin does not get us into heaven.

I agree...





What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

logabe

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williemac said:
with all due respect, universalism is simply the idea that no one will ultimately be lost.
Why would God want someone to be lost forever? Why didn't God give up on Israel? Because
He loves them and HE CORRECTS those that HE LOVES . Jesus came only for the LOST
SHEEP of the House of Israel. They were lost because of their inability to learn righteousness
while living their first life in the flesh. They were so bad that God sent them out of their own
land and gave them divorce papers (Jer. 3:8). Yet... Jesus said, the only thing He came for was
them.

We need to understand the big picture, which is, after over 700 years of wandering in the nations
God came to give these people hope. Just because you have failed in your first lifetime don't ever
believe that God is finished with you.

John 12:32 says,

32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

My question is... was Jesus lifted upon the cross? Well, John said, because of that act, He will draw
ALL MEN unto Himself.

If you don't understand the purpose of the Ages where God will correct those that He Loves, then
that scripture will be very limited in your interpretation. You see, it has nothing to do with us, but
it has everything to do with Him. Did He do it?

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

Chuckt

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Sep 8, 2014
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logabe said:
Why would God want someone to be lost forever? Why didn't God give up on Israel? Because
He loves them and HE CORRECTS those that HE LOVES . Jesus came only for the LOST
SHEEP of the House of Israel. They were lost because of their inability to learn righteousness
while living their first life in the flesh. They were so bad that God sent them out of their own
land and gave them divorce papers (Jer. 3:8). Yet... Jesus said, the only thing He came for was
them.

We need to understand the big picture, which is, after over 700 years of wandering in the nations
God came to give these people hope. Just because you have failed in your first lifetime don't ever
believe that God is finished with you.

John 12:32 says,

32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

My question is... was Jesus lifted upon the cross? Well, John said, because of that act, He will draw
ALL MEN unto Himself.

If you don't understand the purpose of the Ages where God will correct those that He Loves, then
that scripture will be very limited in your interpretation. You see, it has nothing to do with us, but
it has everything to do with Him. Did He do it?

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
He will draw all men to Himself. They will be drawn to the left hand or the right hand:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Chuckt said:
He will draw all men to Himself. They will be drawn to the left hand or the right hand:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Not what Logabe was addressing Chuck. You're taking verses from a different part of scripture that is not dealing with the issue Logabe is dealing with.
Jesus said nothing drawing all men to Him in Matthew 25.