Abram?

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DPMartin

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Was it the lack of faith when Abram received Hagar as wife to bear a inheritor, as Abram desired?
And why did the Lord Abram's God care at all about the out come of Hagar's child?
Also some say that Abram lied when he and Sari went to Egypt, is that true?
 

DPMartin

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Madad21 said:
Haven't you read it?
:)
A lot of so called Christians, especially those who teach, read a lot into these subjects. So, again:


Was it the lack of faith when Abram received Hagar as wife to bear a inheritor, as Abram desired?
And why did the Lord Abram's God care at all about the out come of Hagar's child?
Also some say that Abram lied when he and Sari went to Egypt, is that true?
 

Madad21

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DPMartin said:
A lot of so called Christians, especially those who teach, read a lot into these subjects. So, again:
A lot of so called Christians, ???

Why not just give us your take on it all and let people comment on it?
 

Webers_Home

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DPMartin said:
Was it the lack of faith when Abram received Hagar as wife to bear a
inheritor, as Abram desired?
The story about which you inquire is located in the book of Genesis. Had you
read it, you would have readily detected that up to that point, God had not
yet informed Abraham that Sarah would be the mother of the son who was
to follow in his footsteps.

BTW: "as wife" is the description of a concubine. It doesn't eo ipso indicate
that Hagar and Abraham were married. In point of fact, had Hagar been
Sarah's sister wife, it would not have been legally possible for Abraham to
disown Ishmael.

†. Gen 21:10-11 . . Sarah said to Abraham: Cast out that slave-woman and
her son, for the son of that slave shall not share in the inheritance with my
son Isaac. The matter distressed Abraham greatly, for it concerned a son of
his own.

†. Gen 21:12 . . God said to Abraham: Don't be distressed over the boy or
your slave; whatever Sarah tells you, do as she says, for it is through Isaac
that offspring shall be continued for you.

Sarah wanted her own flesh and blood to become Abraham's firstborn heir
instead of Hagar's boy Ishmael; and, in the case of slave mothers, there was
a perfectly humane way to do it.

The Code Of Hammurabi, and of the still earlier laws of Lipit-Ishtar, implicitly
made inheritance rights a legal consequence of the father's acceptance of an
infant boy as his legitimate son; so then, the laws of Abram's day entitled
Ishmael to the lion's share of his dad's estate. However, there was a
clause in the law stipulating that if the slave's owner emancipated his child's
in-slavery biological mother; then the mother and the child would lose any
and all claims to a paternal property settlement.

However; Abraham couldn't just sell Hagar; no, he had to emancipate her
for the law to take effect. Sarah, in saying "cast out that slave-woman and
her son" is actually encouraging her husband to grant Hagar's freedom;
which would then have the effect of legally disowning Ishmael and elevating
Isaac to the status of not just the firstborn son, but of the only son. (Gen
22:2)

Buen Camino
/
 

Madad21

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DPMartin said:
Also some say that Abram lied when he and Sari went to Egypt, is that true?
gee DP I hope I dont qualify as a "so called Christian" here.....but

Even though Sari is Abrams half sister what Abram did to Pharaoh was still
deceptive but only for the sake of saving his own life in a time of devastating
famine. However God did promise to make Abram into a great nation, which
Abram did believe up until this point, which kinda looks as though if there was
any direct lie it was likely Abrams unintentional lie to God. Thats is if it wasnt
for that little human trait we have as natural worry wort's.

(I tried to format it like you Weber, but I dont think it looks the same :( )
 

DPMartin

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Webers_Home said:
The story about which you inquire is located in the book of Genesis. Had you
read it, you would have readily detected that up to that point, God had not
yet informed Abraham that Sarah would be the mother of the son who was
to follow in his footsteps.
You know webers_home it seems matter of fact, but there are many who teach, and there are many who believe that it was for the lack of faith. So it would seem beneficial to make it clear.

You are most definitely correct and I might add the first one I have seen post that answer. Many go on about Abram and Sarai where of little faith and that isn’t the case the Lord didn’t tell Abram that it was through Sarai that the heir God has agreed to give him. So it wasn’t out of the lack of faith, quit the contrary it was because the Lord told him he would have an heir of his own seed that prompted the effort towards the fulfillment therein.
Madad21 said:
Even though Sari is Abrams half sister what Abram did to Pharaoh was still
deceptive but only for the sake of saving his own life in a time of devastating
famine. However God did promise to make Abram into a great nation, which
Abram did believe up until this point, which kinda looks as though if there was
any direct lie it was likely Abrams unintentional lie to God. Thats is if it wasnt
for that little human trait we have as natural worry wort's.


If pharaoh and friends left them be, there would be no deception perceived by pharaoh.
And take note it was the Lord Abram’s God that put the squeeze on pharaoh. Power to do is power to do, if you are fool enough to put your hand in front of a running saw blade then don’t complain when it hurts you. And Abram had respect for the powers that were in Egypt and what they could and would do at that time.
But lie? No. Reason being is you might trust God with all knowledge of yourself but do you trust strangers with all knowledge of yourself in what you may have that they could take? If you do you must be five yr’s old. There is a reason why people keep money in banks and its none of your business how much they have. Abram, knowing they where of the desire, and where capable of taking whatever pleases them from others. Lying is one thing, and not volunteering information about one’s self is another. And what information Abram and Sarai volunteered at that time wasn’t a lie.
Pharaoh and friends were operating under a assumption on their own part, as so far as to give gifts to Abram, but they found out that Sarai was Abram’s wife how? And it wasn’t because they asked him directly before they sent gifts, was it? But when they did he didn’t lie did he? They where in Pharaoh’s kingdom, why didn’t pharaoh insist on all that was given Abram be returned? Unless pharaoh saw it better, to leave it be on his part.
 

Madad21

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DPMartin said:
If pharaoh and friends left them be, there would be no deception perceived by pharaoh.
And take note it was the Lord Abram’s God that put the squeeze on pharaoh. Power to do is power to do, if you are fool enough to put your hand in front of a running saw blade then don’t complain when it hurts you. And Abram had respect for the powers that were in Egypt and what they could and would do at that time.
But lie? No. Reason being is you might trust God with all knowledge of yourself but do you trust strangers with all knowledge of yourself in what you may have that they could take? If you do you must be five yr’s old. There is a reason why people keep money in banks and its none of your business how much they have. Abram, knowing they where of the desire, and where capable of taking whatever pleases them from others. Lying is one thing, and not volunteering information about one’s self is another. And what information Abram and Sarai volunteered at that time wasn’t a lie.
Pharaoh and friends were operating under a assumption on their own part, as so far as to give gifts to Abram, but they found out that Sarai was Abram’s wife how? And it wasn’t because they asked him directly before they sent gifts, was it? But when they did he didn’t lie did he? They where in Pharaoh’s kingdom, why didn’t pharaoh insist on all that was given Abram be returned? Unless pharaoh saw it better, to leave it be on his part.
Gee how did I know you would find an angle on this :rolleyes:

Genesis 12:11-16
When he was about to enter Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife, “I know that you are a woman beautiful in appearance, 12 and when the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, that it may go well with me because of you, and that my life may be spared for your sake.” 14 When Abram entered Egypt, the Egyptians saw that the woman was very beautiful. 15 And when the princes of Pharaoh saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh. And the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. 16 And for her sake he dealt well with Abram; and he had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male servants, female servants, female donkeys, and camels.

· “I know that you are a woman”
· “they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me,”
· “Say you are my sister”

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Oop and what happens here “And for her sake he (as in Pharaoh) dealt well with Abram; and he had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male servants, female servants, female donkeys, and camels.”
Maybe that would have been a good time for Abram to mention that Sari was his wife, you know while he was taking all those gifts.

Your right only Pharaoh would perceive the deception :mellow:

.
trlrky.gif
 

DPMartin

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Madad21 said:
Gee how did I know you would find an angle on this :rolleyes:

Genesis 12:11-16
When he was about to enter Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife, “I know that you are a woman beautiful in appearance, 12 and when the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, that it may go well with me because of you, and that my life may be spared for your sake.” 14 When Abram entered Egypt, the Egyptians saw that the woman was very beautiful. 15 And when the princes of Pharaoh saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh. And the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. 16 And for her sake he dealt well with Abram; and he had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male servants, female servants, female donkeys, and camels.

· “I know that you are a woman”
· “they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me,”
· “Say you are my sister”

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Oop and what happens here “And for her sake he (as in Pharaoh) dealt well with Abram; and he had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male servants, female servants, female donkeys, and camels.”
Maybe that would have been a good time for Abram to mention that Sari was his wife, you know while he was taking all those gifts.

Your right only Pharaoh would perceive the deception
I can understand how you would see it that way, but if you are looking to split hairs then does it say any where were they asked if she was his wife? Where is that statement? Or did Abram anticipate that they would assume "this is his wife", and said as much? It can seem tricky, or deceptive but, don’t ask don’t tell wasn’t originated with the US military as a corse of action. She wasn’t required to deny that she was his wife, she was only to respond with "thou art my sister", which wasn’t a lie.
As long as they didn’t ask the direct question, is it deception, or is it un-volunteered information, and the others assumed something? She wasn’t told to say she wasn’t anything.
Besides wouldn’t "when they ask you" or maybe "are you Abram’s wife?" be more straight forward? I don’t see anything like that in the text, do you? One must take into consideration what isn’t in the text, and not fill in the blanks according to one’s own view, that would otherwise be plain and simple to state in text. The writers aren’t stupid, if it was plain to say then why not say it plainly?

By the way, what translation are you quoting from? The KJV says "I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon" for example, way different from what you posted.
 

Madad21

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DPMartin said:
I can understand how you would see it that way, but if you are looking to split hairs then does it say any where were they asked if she was his wife? Where is that statement? Or did Abram anticipate that they would assume "this is his wife", and said as much? It can seem tricky, or deceptive but, don’t ask don’t tell wasn’t originated with the US military as a corse of action. She wasn’t required to deny that she was his wife, she was only to respond with "thou art my sister", which wasn’t a lie.
As long as they didn’t ask the direct question, is it deception, or is it un-volunteered information, and the others assumed something? She wasn’t told to say she wasn’t anything.
Besides wouldn’t "when they ask you" or maybe "are you Abram’s wife?" be more straight forward? I don’t see anything like that in the text, do you? One must take into consideration what isn’t in the text, and not fill in the blanks according to one’s own view, that would otherwise be plain and simple to state in text. The writers aren’t stupid, if it was plain to say then why not say it plainly?

By the way, what translation are you quoting from? The KJV says "I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon" for example, way different from what you posted.
Im splitting heirs?

LOL, Im going off whats in the text, and your talking about assumptions, and you say Im splitting hairs...

Then I guess whatever you say dude, I cant argue with that the sort of logic. :)
 

DPMartin

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Madad21 said:
Im splitting heirs?

LOL, Im going off whats in the text, and your talking about assumptions, and you say Im splitting hairs...

Then I guess whatever you say dude, I cant argue with that the sort of logic. :)

It’s not about you Madad21, it’s about the subject at hand.
 

Enquirer

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Sarai was both Abrams wife and his half sister ... so he was not lying ... he just told Sarai to emphasise the "sister" part.

And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the
daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah. Gen 11:29.

And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

Gen 20:12
 

Madad21

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DPMartin said:
It’s not about you Madad21, it’s about the subject at hand.
Is this an alternate universe?
You make assumptions on the facts and say Im splitting heirs and then you turn around and say Im making it about me, but your the one casting your assumptions on the text.
How does that work.

You cant refute what I said on such a flimsy argument, when you study text you need to see whats there first basically whats obvious, then you pull it apart to see what else is there and you measure it against other textual facts, you dont just go in making assumptions on the situation, when theres nothing there to support that reasoning.

So please stop evading my argument by making personal assumptions on my reason (ie splitting heirs and about me) thats a cheap aversion technique

Look whats in the text, what has been made obvious, which is in this case the obvious deception by Abram to save his own life. this in no way means that God didnt know this was going to happen, Gods plan goes ahead no matter what we do, If it wasnt for the bullying by Josephs brothers Josephs would never have found himself in Egypt (or more likely ended up there some other way) the basic context being that Gods will always wins out over the weak willed desires of all men, and even uses our mistakes to bring about his good will, this is no secret and its an on going fact throughout the history of God and man. Abraham made a lot of bad decisions, but God waits patiently every time for Abraham to get back on track as He does with us today. How often DP do we take matters in to our own hands because we become afraid? God tells us not to worry about things but we cant help ourselves and we say Im not sure if your going to help me in this situation so I will have to take action myself and God lets us and what happens? it turns to custard doesnt it. So then we go back to trusting that God has it all under control, He knows whats best for us and His timing is perfect.

These are the things you need to take from the text DP, otherwise your gonna end up going off in dozens of distracting tangents if you start enforcing your own assumptions on what could have happened.
Enquirer said:
Sarai was both Abrams wife and his half sister ... so he was not lying ... he just told Sarai to emphasise the "sister" part.

And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the
daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah. Gen 11:29.

And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

Gen 20:12
No. once again read the text he didnt say to "emphasize" the sister part he told her to tell them she "is" his sister, its not a lie thats true but hes not telling the whole truth on purpose.
 

DPMartin

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Madad21 said:
Is this an alternate universe?
You make assumptions on the facts and say Im splitting heirs and then you turn around and say Im making it about me, but your the one casting your assumptions on the text.
How does that work.

You cant refute what I said on such a flimsy argument, when you study text you need to see whats there first basically whats obvious, then you pull it apart to see what else is there and you measure it against other textual facts, you dont just go in making assumptions on the situation, when theres nothing there to support that reasoning.

So please stop evading my argument by making personal assumptions on my reason (ie splitting heirs and about me) thats a cheap aversion technique

Look whats in the text, what has been made obvious, which is in this case the obvious deception by Abram to save his own life. this in no way means that God didnt know this was going to happen, Gods plan goes ahead no matter what we do, If it wasnt for the bullying by Josephs brothers Josephs would never have found himself in Egypt (or more likely ended up there some other way) the basic context being that Gods will always wins out over the weak willed desires of all men, and even uses our mistakes to bring about his good will, this is no secret and its an on going fact throughout the history of God and man. Abraham made a lot of bad decisions, but God waits patiently every time for Abraham to get back on track as He does with us today. How often DP do we take matters in to our own hands because we become afraid? God tells us not to worry about things but we cant help ourselves and we say Im not sure if your going to help me in this situation so I will have to take action myself and God lets us and what happens? it turns to custard doesnt it. So then we go back to trusting that God has it all under control, He knows whats best for us and His timing is perfect.

These are the things you need to take from the text DP, otherwise your gonna end up going off in dozens of distracting tangents if you start enforcing your own assumptions on what could have happened.

No. once again read the text he didnt say to "emphasize" the sister part he told her to tell them she "is" his sister, its not a lie thats true but hes not telling the whole truth on purpose.

Anyways Madad21, God’s not a deceiver, but yet He lets anyone believe anything they want, about Him or His creation no matter how erroneous it maybe. Men think to have right and entitlements that God should show Himself to them, but He doesn’t, and be what they believe He ought to be. Even when Jesus walked amongst His People Israel. He reveals to the faithful that which they ask of Him, but the unfaithful He doesn’t. Again is that deception in your view? And if it is, then your view might be contrary to the Lord God of Israel’s view.
What was Abraham’s reason? "Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place;" Hence where there is no fear of God there is no revelation.
 

Madad21

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??? Mate, sorry you've gone off topic.

Did you read what I post?

here it is again;

the obvious deception by Abram to save his own life. this in no way means that God didnt know this was going to happen, Gods plan goes ahead no matter what we do, If it wasnt for the bullying by Josephs brothers Josephs would never have found himself in Egypt (or more likely ended up there some other way) the basic context being that Gods will always wins out over the weak willed desires of all men, and even uses our mistakes to bring about his good will, this is no secret and its an on going fact throughout the history of God and man. Abraham made a lot of bad decisions, but God waits patiently every time for Abraham to get back on track as He does with us today. How often DP do we take matters in to our own hands because we become afraid? God tells us not to worry about things but we cant help ourselves and we say Im not sure if your going to help me in this situation so I will have to take action myself and God lets us and what happens? it turns to custard doesnt it. So then we go back to trusting that God has it all under control, He knows whats best for us and His timing is perfect.

:) Peace bro
 

DPMartin

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Madad21 said:
??? Mate, sorry you've gone off topic.

Did you read what I post?

here it is again;

the obvious deception by Abram to save his own life. this in no way means that God didnt know this was going to happen, Gods plan goes ahead no matter what we do, If it wasnt for the bullying by Josephs brothers Josephs would never have found himself in Egypt (or more likely ended up there some other way) the basic context being that Gods will always wins out over the weak willed desires of all men, and even uses our mistakes to bring about his good will, this is no secret and its an on going fact throughout the history of God and man. Abraham made a lot of bad decisions, but God waits patiently every time for Abraham to get back on track as He does with us today. How often DP do we take matters in to our own hands because we become afraid? God tells us not to worry about things but we cant help ourselves and we say Im not sure if your going to help me in this situation so I will have to take action myself and God lets us and what happens? it turns to custard doesnt it. So then we go back to trusting that God has it all under control, He knows whats best for us and His timing is perfect.

:) Peace bro

One has to lie to deceive, last I checked, and Abram didn’t lie. But withholding the truth from those who don’t know it, is something God does all the time, is that deceiving? It’s not different then Abram withholding the truth from the Egyptians. And technically it wasn’t Abram’s fault they would seek to have her anyway. By his estimation, they were going to take her anyway, no matter what they knew or didn’t know. There was no deception in this case for them to do this, they weren't decieved into doing anything they weren't going to do anyways, but it was the fear of God that restored Abram’s situation. Hence if the fear of Abram’s God was there, and Abram was aware of that, his estimation of what was to happen next would have been different, it seems.


Though I can understand your point about fear, it was the Pharaoh that told Abram to go away with the things they gave him, because they feared Abram’s God. If they didn’t fear God when Abram came to Egypt, they did then. It amazes me how so many don’t see that the friend of God, Abraham, and Abraham’s God have the same ways and thinking. God said that He was confidant the Abraham would teach his children in the ways of the Lord but that doesn’t mean they would heed, and no reader should expect them to heed, unless the scripture says they did.

Also, and this is off subject, this whole act in the case of Egypt was a prophesy of things to come when the Israelites would end up in Egypt.
 

Madad21

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But withholding the truth from those who don’t know it, is something God does all the time,
Heya bud

God withholding truth is a completely different matter, it has nothing to do with this account, its a whole other subject and does not at all pertain to this situation.

Just because Abram was being deceiving with Pharaoh doesnt mean God was also doing this. its important to keep a distinction between Gods actions and mans.
You need to separate Gods actions from Abrams, all this starts back at verse 10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe.

What did God say to Abram?
Verse 1. The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
Verse 4. So Abram went, as the Lord had told him
Verse 5. ……..and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.
Verse 7. The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.”
Now does it then say "The famine was severe in the land, So Abram called on the name of the Lord" and God said to Abram "Go to Egypt, because the famine is severe in this land"
...no it doesnt right?

So if Abrams not acting on Gods instructions, whose instructions is Abram following?
It was Abrams decision to go in to Egypt God did not instruct Abram to go there.
Just because God bales him out that situation doesnt mean God made it happen, but once again comes to the rescue of His people as He will do throughout all OT history with these people.

It says in verse 4 that God went with Abram to Canaan, why? because that is the land God promises to Abram and his decedents.
If Abram had faith in the Lords promises he could have stayed in the land and by faith drove out the inhabitants of that land and the famine would not effect him or his household,
How? because God would have made provision for them just as he did for the Israelite's in the dessert.

Leaving the land God promises and getting in to a fix in Egypt is all Abrams doing, Yes you are right that there is a pattern here, in fact its the same pattern repeated by the Israelite's throughout OT history. These people will never learn their lesson and except the Lord as king, instead they are stubborn and are influenced by other nations and will finally be ruled by them.

What does this mean, God does it all on His own, nobody helps Him, no one can boast that they saved themselves its all glory to God who delivers a people from disaster every-time they cry out to Him regardless of how severely and arrogantly they treat God. God shows us His mighty capability for grace, forgiveness and leadership despite the ignorant way of the people he choose, the ways of these stubborn people is exactly like the way we still treat God today.
 

Forsakenone

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DPMartin said:
Also some say that Abram lied when he and Sari went to Egypt, is that true?
In Genesis 12:11-13 it is written:

11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.


Now Sarai was around 65 years of age, whether one would consider that a fair woman to look at is in the eyes of the beholder I would say. However, was there any legitimate reason for Abram to fear the Egyptians, in Genesis 12:19 it is written that Pharaoh said, “Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.”

While it is presented that she was in fact his sister, but not from the same pair of progenitors as himself, it would seem that Abram did misrepresent his marital relationship with Sarai. Was Abram in any danger, and if so why go into Egypt, yet in Genesis 12:20 it states, “And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.

Yet that would not be the only time that Abraham as written in Genesis 20:1-6 he later did the same to the King of Gerar;

1 And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.
2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Now in Numbers 12:6 it is written, "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." So was Abimelech the true prophet? Since in Genesis 20:11, it is written, And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.