De-Saving

Hi Weber, Because once we get to heaven we'll have incorruptible bodies, meaning we will no longer have the capability of sinning so there would never be negative conduct. I wouldn't consider believers as being de-saved at any point unless they return the gift of eternal life out of anger, bitterness or whatever reason they have to pout. Outside of a rejection, thus becoming apostate, christians might suffer loss of rewards but they don't get "de-saved".

Webers_Home said:

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Q: If Christians can be de-saved on earth by their conduct; then why can't
they be de-saved in heaven by their conduct? Does God have a double
standard-- one for Christians in this life; and another for Christians in the next?

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God does NOT de-save (as you put it) anyone. We are saved by our proclamation of Jesus as our savior. We can also proclaim we no longer believe in Jesus, which is called apostasy. We are not bound for heaven so I don't know why you would say this? Our destiny as Christians, is Eternal LIFE.
God does not have double standards, He sets the standards, and we strive to live up to them.

Mark 3:29-30
28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

By the power of Christ demons are cast out and by the power of Christ we receive the free gift of salvation, any and all sin will be forgiven in Christs name, but reject Christ and you blaspheme the Spirit, all who hear the gospel in their lifetimes will have opportunities to respond until their time is up and then it ill be to late. To die without excepting Gods only begotten Son is to blaspheme the Spirit and is in danger of eternal damnation.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Hi Weber, Yes, but I believe the door to repentance would still be open to them unless they start attributing the things of God to Satan. At that point there would be no saving them, imo.

Webers_Home said:

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Q: If Christians can be de-saved on earth by their conduct; then why can't
they be de-saved in heaven by their conduct? Does God have a double
standard-- one for Christians in this life; and another for Christians in the next?


Buen Camino
/

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This is a very good question ... will we be able to sin in heaven ?

Heaven is a perfect place but then again so was Eden.
The presence of God is in heaven but then again so did he walk in Eden.
Yet, man still sinned and died.

However, their are a few differences in the two places that we should note.

Mankind had the ability to die in Eden - spiritually - that is, but does not have that opportunity in heaven.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt
surely die. Gen 2:17

There is no "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in heaven, there is no temptation to sin in heaven.
Spiritual death comes about when a person sins.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23

The bible says that when a person arrives in heaven

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of
angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the
spirits of just men made perfect, Heb 12:22 - 23

And in 1 John 3:2 it says,

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be
like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So the question is this, how is Jesus ... is he perfect ... is he sinless ... does he have the desire to sin etc ?

The answer to that is that Jesus is perfect, without sin, and has no desire to sin either.
Therefore, when we see him we will be exactly the same.
And Paul speaking by the Holy Spirit says in 2 Cor 5:8,

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So whether we die and go to heaven now and be with the Lord or later, we will be "present with the Lord" and thus "we shall
be like him for we shall see him as he is" ... perfected and without the desire to sin.

Lastly, there is no devil in heaven either.

Webers_Home said:

-
Q: If Christians can be de-saved on earth by their conduct; then why can't
they be de-saved in heaven by their conduct? Does God have a double
standard-- one for Christians in this life; and another for Christians in the next?


Buen Camino
/

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Good conduct never got us saved. Bad conduct can never 'de save' us.

We are saved because we drew near to God James 4:8, passed a session of harsh judgment of our hearts and minds by God Jer 17:10 and were then given a revelation of Jesus being Lord by the Holy Spirit1 Cor 12:3. So that now we can '''believe''' that Jesus is Lord. Nobody can '''believe''' that Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit revealing it to them.

So...a Christian is not just someone who has good conduct. But rather someone whose heart is 100% committed to serving and pleasing God. Approving of those things that God approves of. Selflessness. Turning the left cheek and then some. Having a heart after God's is perhaps the best way of putting it.

So, we who make it to heaven are eternally sealed by the cross, despite our bad conduct. We have already met the ''minimum requirement for this eternal justification. It is inline with the logic of scripture like James 5:20 '''doing X covers a multitude of sins''. Example: If you had to jump in front of a bullet for me, I will be in your eternal debt. Despite what wrongs you do to me, nothing you do can ever trump what you have already done.

Jesus was NOT micromanaged Weber, He was God. He knew, which is why He said what He said. You forget that He said; "ALL power and authority has been given me." Jesus was the hypostatic union of God and man.

Again, we don't go to heaven, we go on to Eternal Life. Matthew 25:46, Mark 10:30, John 3:15, 16, 36. In fact the gospel of John's theme is Eternal Life. Life is what you and I know now, NOT a place of spiritual existence. There was a very good reason why God created life....it was for us to have.

Voila!

StanJ said:

Jesus was NOT micromanaged Weber, He was God. He knew, which is why He said what He said. You forget that He said; "ALL power and authority has been given me." Jesus was the hypostatic union of God and man.

Again, we don't go to heaven, we go on to Eternal Life. Matthew 25:46, Mark 10:30, John 3:15, 16, 36. In fact the gospel of John's theme is Eternal Life. Life is what you and I know now, NOT a place of spiritual existence. There was a very good reason why God created life....it was for us to have.

Voila!

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I would have to agree with Webers_Home ... Jesus WAS micromanaged, to a certain extent, ... did he not say in John 5:30,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of
the Father which hath sent me.

So Jesus never judged anyone unless he first heard from God.

And again in John 5:19,

Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something
He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

So Jesus also never did anything unless God first showed him.

Did he not also say, "not my will but thy will be done" ?

Also, Jesus only said,

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18

He only said these words after he rose from the dead, and not during his life ministry.

I would have to agree with StanJ though on his point that we, "don't go to heaven but on to eternal life".

Enquirer said:

I would have to agree with Webers_Home ... Jesus WAS micromanaged, to a certain extent, ... did he not say in John 5:30,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of
the Father which hath sent me.

So Jesus never judged anyone unless he first heard from God.

And again in John 5:19,

Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something
He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

So Jesus also never did anything unless God first showed him.

Did he not also say, "not my will but thy will be done" ?

Also, Jesus only said,

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18

He only said these words after he rose from the dead, and not during his life ministry.

I would have to agree with StanJ though on his point that we, "don't go to heaven but on to eternal life".

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John 5:30 only shows the unified nature of Jesus with God. He is showing that He cannot go against His God nature. This is not being micro-managed like a so called puppet. His commitment to the "cause" if you will was undeniable and 100% firm.

The harmony Jesus was explaining, of His hypostatic nature, was just that. It was not from someone who was speaking as a slave or puppet.

Again John 5:19 shows Jesus explaining His hypostatic relationship/God nature. Just as God is three in one, Jesus was two in one...God and man. Separate natures inexorably linked/combined into one. Jesus was not physically seeing God do anything, He was witnessing God in Himself do things.

lforrest said:

If the angels are able to sin, why not the saints also?

I think God's presence will be a great hinderance to sinning.

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I like this response. I would also add that we chose Christ over the passing pleasures of this world when the temptation to do otherwise was strong. How much more so when the temptation no longer exists!

lforrest said:

There is also a question of the nature of heaven in the age to come, if time will even still exist. I imagine that an existence that is not constrained by time in any way creates a state of being, where it is impossible to change in a similar way to God.

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I'm sure time will exist, otherwise we wouldn't have ETERNAL life.