Homosexuality and adultery

Both are son, both are forgivable provided a person repents

Sin is messy.

I addressed this question more thoroughly in the thread: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19244-a-moral-framework-for-same-sex-unions/

Because I believe that even within the context of same sex unions, one cannot be expected to abandon all morality. Even gay people know that cheating on one's spouse is wrong.

Both are mortal sins as God ordained OT that homosexuals and adulterers be stoned to death.

We are to get on our knees and work out our salvation in fear and trembling before God Phil 2:12.

We will be forgiven 7x70 times a day for our sins if we repent. Since God judges heart and mind we can never fake repentance Jer 17:10.

Fact is, mortal sins cannot easily be repented of. Who here would trust their spouse caught in continuous adultery?

Two of many clearly defined sins in the Bible. Nothing more, nothing less.

KingJ said:

Both are mortal sins as God ordained OT that homosexuals and adulterers be stoned to death.

We are to get on our knees and work out our salvation in fear and trembling before God Phil 2:12.

We will be forgiven 7x70 times a day for our sins if we repent. Since God judges heart and mind we can never fake repentance Jer 17:10.

Fact is, mortal sins cannot easily be repented of. Who here would trust their spouse caught in continuous adultery?

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No such thing as a mortal or venial sin...SIN is SIN. As for stoning, read the OT....many things resulted in stoning, including blaspheming and touching God's mountain even accidently.

StanJ said:

Two of many clearly defined sins in the Bible. Nothing more, nothing less.

No such thing as a mortal or venial sin...SIN is SIN. As for stoning, read the OT....many things resulted in stoning, including blaspheming and touching God's mountain even accidently.

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C'mon Stan, you need to use lateral thought / read scripture properly.

Sin is sin as in no sin is in God's presence.

Degrees of rebellion is directly paralleled to degrees of sin. Watching porn is not on par with continuous adultery. In the OT different punishments were handed out. The two you quoted for stoning have context and valid explanations.

There were sinners in Hades and then there were sinners in Abraham's bosom. Shipwrecking salvation = turning ship completely (mortal sin) and continuing in the direction of the storm (continuing in sin unrepentant).

KingJ said:

C'mon Stan, you need to use lateral thought / read scripture properly.

Sin is sin as in no sin is in God's presence.

Degrees of rebellion is directly paralleled to degrees of sin. Watching porn is not on par with continuous adultery. In the OT different punishments were handed out. The two you quoted for stoning have context and valid explanations.

There were sinners in Hades and then there were sinners in Abraham's bosom. Shipwrecking salvation = turning ship completely (mortal sin) and continuing in the direction of the storm (continuing in sin unrepentant).

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You need to get out of the OT mentality. Sin is SIN and to each of us it can be something different, which is why Paul wrote "whatever is not of faith is sin."

The issue is sin, not sinful lifestyle, which apparently you don't differentiate between. 1 John 2:1 makes the distinction. We are ALL sinners, but the ONLY difference is some are saved by grace and some are not. Death is the demarcation point. Instead of equivocating about words, show us exactly where the Bible tells us the difference or even names mortal and venial sins. This is an RCC dogma, not a Biblical one.

StanJ said:

You need to get out of the OT mentality. Sin is SIN and to each of us it can be something different, which is why Paul wrote "whatever is not of faith is sin."

The issue is sin, not sinful lifestyle, which apparently you don't differentiate between. 1 John 2:1 makes the distinction. We are ALL sinners, but the ONLY difference is some are saved by grace and some are not. Death is the demarcation point. Instead of equivocating about words, show us exactly where the Bible tells us the difference or even names mortal and venial sins. This is an RCC dogma, not a Biblical one.

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It is like grasping the trinity and rapture.

OT = crystal clear
NT = 1. Paul mentions sins that stand out 1 Cor 6:9-13. 2. Jesus says adultery / sexual immorality is grounds for divorce and NOT thoughts. 3. Shipwreck 1 Tim 1:19 = rejecting faith and not holding onto a good conscience = not just some bad thoughts.
Common sense = 1. We will NOT divorce our wives if they think of other men. 2. The level of inner rebellion / 'lost' statuts for someone who murdered > many other sinful states. 3. Stealing from an orphan > Stealing candy from the store.

KingJ said:

It is like grasping the trinity and rapture.

OT = crystal clear
NT = 1. Paul mentions sins that stand out 1 Cor 6:9-13. 2. Jesus says adultery / sexual immorality is grounds for divorce and NOT thoughts. 3. Shipwreck 1 Tim 1:19 = rejecting faith and not holding onto a good conscience = not just some bad thoughts.
Common sense = 1. We will NOT divorce our wives if they think of other men. 2. The level of inner rebellion / 'lost' status for someone who murdered > many other sinful states. 3. Stealing from an orphan > Stealing candy from the store.

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OT= well that can't be accurate, as Jesus himself instructed the Pharisees and teachers of the Law where they were wrong in their verbal laws that contradicted God's law.
NT= Paul mentions many sins, but it wasn't meant to be a comprehensive one. It was meant to address those that came from the Gentiles into the new church.
You'll have to show us where Paul says what is grounds for divorce, not just claim it. Jesus said; "I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
1 Tim 1:9, yes that is right and you can't have a good conscience if you fill it full of bad thoughts. Sinning is a matter of the heart and mind, and begins with our thoughts as Jesus taught. If a woman keeps thinking of other men she will eventually divorce. It actually happened to me!
Stealing is stealing and only legalistic people differentiate.

Sorry about your wife.

1. The OT laws and the punishment to the crimes ordained by God and His prophets, don't please God?
2. Paul says he was the chiefest sinners because he took candy from a kid?
3. Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
4. All Christians are going from glory to glory 2 Cor 3:18 in dealing with sins / getting closer to God / getting minds renewed.
5. You need to deal with all scripture on self judgment like 1 Cor 11:31, Phil 2:12. This is my chief argument. How can a homosexual survive a session of self judgment before God in fear and trembling...knowing the OT law God enforced on it?
6. I believe there was a level of sarcasm to Paul's statement in 1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! = If our governments can get judgments right, how much more us?
7. Those who go to heaven and hell are judged according to their deeds. Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds.

This Vale Of Tears said:

I addressed this question more thoroughly in the thread: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19244-a-moral-framework-for-same-sex-unions/

Because I believe that even within the context of same sex unions, one cannot be expected to abandon all morality. Even gay people know that cheating on one's spouse is wrong.

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A line from your posted thread,

But now getting to my question, should Christians expect a moral framework for same sex unions even while maintaining that same sex unions are not the will of God for people's lives?

This is an excellent question and fairly simple to answer.
And the answer is ... NO ... no, we should not accept any moral framework for homosexual relationships, because it's a sin.
Because to create one or acknowledge one is in essence an acknowledgement that some type of acceptability to such an estate has been granted.

Take the guy who ran the concentration camps in Nazi Germany for instance, by day he was a vile murderer but by night he was a loving
husband and an excellent father.
Should we create a framework for murderers like him because they are good family men, people who obey their governing authorities, etc.?
Of course not.

Homosexuality is a sin and if continued in until the day of death it will result in eternal judgement.

Why is homosexuality a sin ?
Well God says it is and therefore it is ... but why does He view it as such ?
Because it goes against the natural order of things in his economy of creation.

That is basically what sin really is ... a perversion of divine order.
Satan is not God and therefore cannot create anything new, he only has the ability to pervert what has already been created and in this
instance he has perverted the divine order of things in the universe.
Doing the direct opposite of what God has ordained, and God finds that incorrect, abhorrent and a breaking of his divine law of what He
has established.
God names this activity of breaking with divine order as sin, and homosexuality is a direct opposite of what He has ordained, romans 1:25 - 26 says so,

because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with
men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

What error ? ... the error of a miscalculation of their actions.

And Jude 1:7 says the same thing,

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an
example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Homosexuality is "contrary to nature" and an "unnatural desire" in the economy of God and that which is unnatural is condemned by him as a sin,
a "missing of the mark" a misuse or abuse of what He declares to be right or righteous in his eyes and He declares that the penalty for breaking rank
with divine order will ultimately earn the person a wage ... and the "wages of sin (that which is contrary to divine order or purpose) is death".

Adultery is exactly the same ... it is breaking rank with what God has declared to be right and the wage paid for the deed performed will be death.

KingJ said:

Sorry about your wife.

1. The OT laws and the punishment to the crimes ordained by God and His prophets, don't please God?
2. Paul says he was the chiefest sinners because he took candy from a kid?
3. Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
4. All Christians are going from glory to glory 2 Cor 3:18 in dealing with sins / getting closer to God / getting minds renewed.
5. You need to deal with all scripture on self judgment like 1 Cor 11:31, Phil 2:12. This is my chief argument. How can a homosexual survive a session of self judgment before God in fear and trembling...knowing the OT law God enforced on it?
6. I believe there was a level of sarcasm to Paul's statement in 1 Cor 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! = If our governments can get judgments right, how much more us?
7. Those who go to heaven and hell are judged according to their deeds. Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds.

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Sorry KJ but all this is, is another equivocal response in the form of questions. I was clear despite your efforts to equivocate and I really have lost interest in playing your game.

StanJ said:

Sorry KJ but all this is, is another equivocal response in the form of questions. I was clear despite your efforts to equivocate and I really have lost interest in playing your game.

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Your belief has to be better explained. It sounds like madness. I am not trying to be equivocal.

Simply put and no offence to you....

Paul saying he is the chiefest of sinners because he had thoughts of murdering Christians = madness
Reading Matt 5:28 as equal to Matt 5:32 = madness
Ignoring the fact that different punishments were given to different crimes OT / God's wrath was provoked by mortal sinners = madness
Me divorcing my wife for her thinking of other men = madness

How is it not madness? Of course thoughts can lead to greater sins. Of course God will consider that in His judgment of us. I don't completely disagree with you there. God judges heart and mind. All we can grasp though is that when we see someone continuing in a mortal sin ....it is a clear indicator of heart and mind being completely lost / flesh in full control.

Both are results of the Fall and invite us to forgive / accept forgiveness / love unconditionally

Amen Aspen. As long as you also believe in tough love I agree 100% with all you said!

1 Cor 5:9-13

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

what is tough love? Telling people who are guilty of homosexuality or adultry they are sinners? How about this KingJ - you find me someone who commits adultry or a homosexual who does not know that they are sinners and I will tell them that you believe they are greater sinners than yourself.

I believe Jesus had different advice for those who were planning on judging the women found guilty of adultry, but you seem to think I am one of the false teacher here, so I guess you are the boss

aspen said:

what is tough love? Telling people who are guilty of homosexuality or adultry they are sinners? How about this KingJ - you find me someone who commits adultry or a homosexual who does not know that they are sinners and I will tell them that you believe they are greater sinners than yourself.

I believe Jesus had different advice for those who were planning on judging the women found guilty of adultry, but you seem to think I am one of the false teacher here, so I guess you are the boss

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You are raising many points, but can we first deal with the scripture I gave? It is important to distinguish between saved and unsaved.
Rephrase your questions in that light. Mary the adulterer would have repented and being saved was she living after the resurrection. Her decision to turn from her sin was proof of that.

the verse you provided was part of a letter that Paul wrote the church in Corinth. it was a warning against baptised Christians engaging in 'worldliness' - he provided examples of activities that were part of the culture of Romanized Greece, at the time. Activities, which would impede the sanctification of the justified members of the Body. One of those activities was engaging in public sex with prostitutes of the same sex or even friends or co-workers in the Roman bath houses. Homosexuality was singled out because it was the only kind of sex people engaged in when they meet together after work in segragated bath houses - it was part of the decadent culture. If Paul was talking to the Church of Wall Street today instead, he would be pointing out other worldly activities like routine cocaine use during lunch breaks or whatever damaging cultural norm that happens in that group of people.

i was speaking about the women that Jesus saved from being stoned for adultery - i do not think we know her name. Nor do we know if she followed Jesus's advice to 'go and sin no more'. We do know that if she continued to live, she continued to sin.
in some capacity.

Thr point of the story is not for us to become sin-free so that we can go out and condemn others baptised or not. Instead it is to increase empathy and compassion by helping to recognise that we are all recovering sinners and need to accept the love of God and the love of each other.

aspen said:

1. the verse you provided was part of a letter that Paul wrote the church in Corinth. it was a warning against baptised Christians engaging in 'worldliness' - he provided examples of activities that were part of the culture of Romanized Greece, at the time. Activities, which would impede the sanctification of the justified members of the Body. One of those activities was engaging in public sex with prostitutes of the same sex or even friends or co-workers in the Roman bath houses. Homosexuality was singled out because it was the only kind of sex people engaged in when they meet together after work in segragated bath houses - it was part of the decadent culture. If Paul was talking to the Church of Wall Street today instead, he would be pointing out other worldly activities like routine cocaine use during lunch breaks or whatever damaging cultural norm that happens in that group of people.

2. i was speaking about the women that Jesus saved from being stoned for adultery - i do not think we know her name. Nor do we know if she followed Jesus's advice to 'go and sin no more'. We do know that if she continued to live, she continued to sin in some capacity.

3. Thr point of the story is not for us to become sin-free so that we can go out and condemn others baptised or not. Instead it is to increase empathy and compassion by helping to recognise that we are all recovering sinners and need to accept the love of God and the love of each other.

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1. What I wanted you to grasp in that verse is that we are to show tough love to those that are 'within'. That would be all those who profess to be a Christian. Just as any Muslim would be disciplined for mocking Muhammad.

2. Of course she continued sinning. Jesus made a humungous point there with her that I am not ignoring. His point was that we have all sinned and need a Savior. We also know that scripture says ''whoever says he is without sin is deceiving himself' 1 John1:8. Hence we can conclude that it is not sin that gets us into hell and its absence that gets us into heaven. It is something deeper. It is the reason Jesus spared the adulterer. So what is it? Why were people in Abrahams bosom and why were other people in Gehenna / Hades?

It is because those in Abraham's bosom / Paradise repented sincerely / hated sin / tried their best to fight it 1 Cor 11:31 and those in Hades did not. They ''''loved''''' the darkness 1 John 3:19.

Now surely it is not rocket science to grasp that someone continuing in mortal sins is closer to ''loving darkness'' then someone continuing in venial sins? Of course God judges heart and mind on a scale we can't. But that does not mean we can't judge / foresee / warn / help / tough love. Consider the sin of the Amorites in Gen 15:16 for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.

3. But we are not all recovering sinners. We may all have sin but we are not all sinners. A sinner is someone who chooses to stay in their sin / love darkness / not repent. We are not condemning anyone either. Not even those 'within'. Condemnation and tough love are different words. Judging and condemning are different words.

Paul had one thing to say about the unsaved. ''There go I but for the grace of God'' and one message for them '' repent of your sins and make right with God'' .

Paul had many things to say to us that are 'within'. The constant accusations of ''judging / condemning'' among Christians is so tired. Especially once you have read / know of scripture like:

Rom 1:26-32

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 5:20 ''Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]who put darkness for light, and light for darkness.[/SIZE]

StanJ said:

Sorry KJ but all this is, is another equivocal response in the form of questions. I was clear despite your efforts to equivocate and I really have lost interest in playing your game.

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No, you were not clear. You quoted Matt 5:28 and ignored Matt 5:32.