We Are Dead to the Law

Raeneske · Oct 4, 2014

Romans 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Arguments are sometimes drawn from this chapter to prove that a Christian does not have to keep the law of His God. The 10 Commandments described as holy, just, and good in this chapter are called by many a yoke of bondage. To justify their claim, we are claimed to be dead to the law. I agree that we are indeed dead to the law. To argue that we are dead to the law, is to argue with Scriptures. So then, why then, why would one persist in trying to keep the law then? Should I not delight in calling the law a yoke of bondage? Shouldn't my inward man be opposed to the keeping of the law? Yet Paul himself says:

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Paul delights after the law of God, His holy 10 precepts, after the inward man. And soon after Paul declares His delight in God's law, he declares that this very law which we are dead to, he himself serves.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If we believe that we are not to keep the law, that being dead to it means we are not to keep it, we end up causing the Scriptures to contradict themselves. In one instance Paul declares that we are dead to the law, and in the next, Paul declares that he not only delights, but he himself serves that very law! This would mean Paul is yet again entangling himself into a yoke of bondage, and that he is an adulterer, choosing to married to the law again! What is the meaning of all this?

But alas, the problem arises with the initial belief surrounding being dead to the law. Remember first, that we are dead to the law, and not the other way around. The law is not dead to us, but the Christian is dead to the law. We are the ones that do the dying, the law itself does not die. We are the ones that die of self, the law does not sink into insignificance when one becomes a Christian. Let me ask: What is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What is the penalty of breaking/transgressing the law of God? And what are the wages/payments/earnings of sin?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death! By breaking God's law, we are condemned to death. What does Christ free us from, besides sin?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Christ frees us from the wages of sin, which is death. Because Christ died, it is as if we are now dead to the law. The law demanded our death, but Christ paid for it. So, in the view of the law, the penalty for sin has now been paid. We then have no condemnation. This is what our death to the law means. It does not mean that the law is dead, and has sunk into insignificance, but that we are dead to the law, and that our old sinful ways, and past life, have died and sunk into insignificance. But what about the fact that we sin every single day? Paul says it best:

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

It is a daily struggle against sin, and self. But we are still to do our best to obey the law on each and every single point. The Christian walk is daily one, one where we battle not against flesh and blood, but ...

Ephesians 6:12 ... but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So of course you're sinning. But Christ commanded us to be perfect. And He would not have given such a command, if it was going to be impossible for us to get to that point. No, Christ commanded it, therefore He will give the strength and the power to get to that point. Christ will set us free from all sin. Daily, we are to become more and more perfect, more and more Christlike.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

That law which is called holy, just, and good, we are to serve in the newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. The law from which we are delivered from it's condemnation, that is, death, we are now to serve that spiritual law in the newness of spirit.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

God has Paul say:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The law of God is not void through our faith in Christ. Again I say, the law itself does not die, but we ourselves are the ones that die. The law itself does not sink into insignificance, we ourselves sink into insignificance. Because we are under Christ's grace, and not under the law's condemnation, this does not give us license to sin. He who is disobedient to God, sinning willfully, cannot be saved, for he has no more sacrifice for his sins. That is, he longer has the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, nor His grace any longer. He is back under the law's condemnation.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

These workers of iniquity are the ones who declared Christ was their Lord, and did many good works in His name, yet they were workers of iniquity. They were lawless.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity:

Outline of Biblical Usage

the condition of without law

because ignorant of it
because of violating it

[*]
contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

-- http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G458&t=KJV

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

1 Corinthians 10:4 ... and that Rock was Christ.

Hence, true Christians are those that do two things. Not those who only believe in Jesus Christ, but those who keep God's commandments as well as have faith in Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jacob_Rising · Oct 4, 2014

Raeneske said:
Romans 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Arguments are sometimes drawn from this chapter to prove that a Christian does not have to keep the law of His God. The 10 Commandments described as holy, just, and good in this chapter are called by many a yoke of bondage. To justify their claim, we are claimed to be dead to the law. I agree that we are indeed dead to the law. To argue that we are dead to the law, is to argue with Scriptures. So then, why then, why would one persist in trying to keep the law then? Should I not delight in calling the law a yoke of bondage? Shouldn't my inward man be opposed to the keeping of the law? Yet Paul himself says:

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Paul delights after the law of God, His holy 10 precepts, after the inward man. And soon after Paul declares His delight in God's law, he declares that this very law which we are dead to, he himself serves.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If we believe that we are not to keep the law, that being dead to it means we are not to keep it, we end up causing the Scriptures to contradict themselves. In one instance Paul declares that we are dead to the law, and in the next, Paul declares that he not only delights, but he himself serves that very law! This would mean Paul is yet again entangling himself into a yoke of bondage, and that he is an adulterer, choosing to married to the law again! What is the meaning of all this?

But alas, the problem arises with the initial belief surrounding being dead to the law. Remember first, that we are dead to the law, and not the other way around. The law is not dead to us, but the Christian is dead to the law. We are the ones that do the dying, the law itself does not die. We are the ones that die of self, the law does not sink into insignificance when one becomes a Christian. Let me ask: What is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What is the penalty of breaking/transgressing the law of God? And what are the wages/payments/earnings of sin?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death! By breaking God's law, we are condemned to death. What does Christ free us from, besides sin?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Christ frees us from the wages of sin, which is death. Because Christ died, it is as if we are now dead to the law. The law demanded our death, but Christ paid for it. So, in the view of the law, the penalty for sin has now been paid. We then have no condemnation. This is what our death to the law means. It does not mean that the law is dead, and has sunk into insignificance, but that we are dead to the law, and that our old sinful ways, and past life, have died and sunk into insignificance. But what about the fact that we sin every single day? Paul says it best:

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

It is a daily struggle against sin, and self. But we are still to do our best to obey the law on each and every single point. The Christian walk is daily one, one where we battle not against flesh and blood, but ...

Ephesians 6:12 ... but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So of course you're sinning. But Christ commanded us to be perfect. And He would not have given such a command, if it was going to be impossible for us to get to that point. No, Christ commanded it, therefore He will give the strength and the power to get to that point. Christ will set us free from all sin. Daily, we are to become more and more perfect, more and more Christlike.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

That law which is called holy, just, and good, we are to serve in the newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. The law from which we are delivered from it's condemnation, that is, death, we are now to serve that spiritual law in the newness of spirit.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

God has Paul say:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The law of God is not void through our faith in Christ. Again I say, the law itself does not die, but we ourselves are the ones that die. The law itself does not sink into insignificance, we ourselves sink into insignificance. Because we are under Christ's grace, and not under the law's condemnation, this does not give us license to sin. He who is disobedient to God, sinning willfully, cannot be saved, for he has no more sacrifice for his sins. That is, he longer has the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, nor His grace any longer. He is back under the law's condemnation.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

These workers of iniquity are the ones who declared Christ was their Lord, and did many good works in His name, yet they were workers of iniquity. They were lawless.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity:

Outline of Biblical Usage

the condition of without law

because ignorant of it

because of violating it

[*]
contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

-- http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G458&t=KJV

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

1 Corinthians 10:4 ... and that Rock was Christ.

Hence, true Christians are those that do two things. Not those who only believe in Jesus Christ, but those who keep God's commandments as well as have faith in Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jacob_Rising~ Here is where I start.........................I can't figure out how to separate what I say from where I quoted somebody.

WOW, This forum is full of geniuses, I didn't think I would like what you were going to say and you really surprised me, It is always so refreshing to see somebody on the right path.

There are increasingly more and more people filled with the spirit of Elijah, it's quite a hunger isn't it?

KingJ · Oct 6, 2014

I agree with Jacob. Good post Raeneske!

Jacob_Rising said:
Jacob_Rising~ Here is where I start.........................I can't figure out how to separate what I say from where I quoted somebody.

Hit 'enter' at the end of a quoted post.

Julabee Jones · Oct 27, 2014

Romans 7 not only says that we are dead to the law, but just as importantly, the law is dead to us...

And take careful note of what God calls those who attempt to keep both the law and grace. He calls them "adulterers".

If we stand before that damp, dark, corruptible tomb, filled with death and that which has been laid to rest, and cry out aloud, "LAW COME FORTH!", reviving it in our lives, we are adulterers in the eyes of God. And not only so, but God, in His infinite wisdom not only made us dead to the law, but made the law dead to us. So that trying to keep the dead law, as dead to the law ourselves, is doubly dead...

"1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Let us parse the following verses from 2 Corinthians 3,

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life (ever has the letter of the law killed, but it is the spirit that gives life (John 6:63)). 7But if the ministration of death, (so much so that Paul calls the law, 'the ministration of death'), written and engraven in stones (that is, the ten commandments written by God's finger on stone) , was glorious (and yes, the ten commandments was glorious), so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance (so glorious that the people couldn't behold the face of Moses); which glory was to be DONE AWAY (not only the glory on Moses' face was to be 'done away', but the glory of the law was to be 'done away'): 8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? (If the spirit is life, and the law is death, then the ministration of the spirit is life giving grace, not the inevitable death of the law) 9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory (once again, calling the law by an accurate name, here, 'the ministration of condemnation'), much more doth the ministration of righteousness (as directly opposed to 'condemnation') exceed in glory (Glory! to God, for grace, and forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ making us free FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH...Rom. 8). 10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth (so much was the glory of grace, that the glory of the law was as if it had NO glory, because the glory of grace so outshone it). 11For if that which is DONE AWAY was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious (and in point of fact, the law, and hence its glory was DONE AWAY, that the glory of righteousness in grace might remain.)

Paul goes on to claim that he is speaking plainly...but apparently not plainly enough for those who call for the law from its grave.

(Or, as is said in Hebrews, "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10:9 wherein the first, the law was DONE AWAY or TAKEN AWAY, in order that He may establish the second, the law of life and liberty in Christ Jesus...as he says in 2 Cor 3, verse 17, "...where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.)

To shorten a long post...let me just give you two more short verses...

"And the law is not of faith..." Gal 3:12, and, Rom 14:23b, "for whatsoever is not of faith, is sin".

The law isn't of faith, and that which isn't of faith is sin...how quaint! But how eternally true...The law is not of faith, and whatsoever is not of faith is SIN.

So that Paul was no liar when he tells in Romans 7:1-6, that those who attempt (attempt only, for it is impossible to do) to marry grace with law, are, in the eyes of God according to God's Word, 'adulterers'...

God bless you,

I am and remain sincerely yours in grace and Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones

heretoeternity · Nov 8, 2014

Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law...Romans 3
Do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid! Romans 6
Sin is transgresion of the law. 1st John 3

Xhavon · Nov 8, 2014

You are only dead to the Law if you are walking in the Spirit of Christ fulfilling the Law.

haz · Nov 15, 2014

Raeneske said:
It is a daily struggle against sin, and self. But we are still to do our best to obey the law on each and every single point.

God has Paul say:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The law of God is not void through our faith in Christ. Again I say, the law itself does not die, but we ourselves are the ones that die. The law itself does not sink into insignificance, we ourselves sink into insignificance. Because we are under Christ's grace, and not under the law's condemnation, this does not give us license to sin. He who is disobedient to God, sinning willfully, cannot be saved, for he has no more sacrifice for his sins. That is, he longer has the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, nor His grace any longer. He is back under the law's condemnation.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

These workers of iniquity are the ones who declared Christ was their Lord, and did many good works in His name, yet they were workers of iniquity. They were lawless.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Hi Rae,

For the sake of brevity I've narrowed this post to just a few of your points. Shorter posts dealing with fewer points are better for all.

You said we are to do our best to obey the law.
Is this what you describe as establishing the law (Rom 3:31)?
How much obedience to the law do you suggest is the minimum requirement for one to meet this requirement to establish the law? I ask this question as you seem to be suggesting that some minimum standard of obedience to the law is required.

You correctly defined sin as transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
As most, if not all, Christians do not keep the Saturday Sabbath holy, as described in scripture, then are you suggesting that we are all lost as we are habitually disobeying the law and thus not establishing it?

Now regarding the law it should be noted that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

But Christians are not even under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tm 1:9), so why say Christians are judged of sin/transgression of the law that they are not even under?

Christians cannot be charged with the sin of transgression of the law.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

In Christ we cannot sin (1John 3:9), we've ceased from sin (1Pet 4:1). This is not saying we're perfect in physical behaviour. Instead it's saying that our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) and that it's Christ's righteousness/holiness/perfection that covers us.

We agree that the law is just, holy and good, Rom 7:12. The law continues and is not done away.
But as a means to righteousness, we Christians are not under its jurisdiction. Instead it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. For Christians we need to remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12. We cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6. To mix works with grace is to be lukewarm, Rev 3:16.

I understand that Christians establish the law in that we acknowledge that the law is just, holy and good, and that anyone who fails to keep it perfectly, (as the law requires, James 2:10), deserve death. Christians admit that we are deserving of the death penalty and we thus submit to God's righteousness and turn to His mercy and grace. We believe on Jesus and thereby our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

As for Heb 10:26,27, the willful sin spoken of here is refers to those who turn back to the law for righteousness by works. Such persons are workers of iniquity in that they turn back to the law, thus rejecting God's grace (remember we cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11;6).

How does one sin willfully?
Note Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner

Remember that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
For one to turn back to the law, such are rejecting Christ/the truth, and instead are seeking to establish their own righteousness by works of the law. In doing this they no longer have Christ's covering and will therefore be judged a sinner under the law. To do this is to willfully sin.

Hence why we see so many scriptures warning us not to turn back to the law for righteousness.

aspen · Nov 22, 2014

It seems to me that we view the Law as almost a bad thing - like it is an evil trap. The Law in actuality, is a necessary part of our redemption - it is the external structure. In our Fallen state we needed external guidelines before we could ever be expected to internalize Gods transformation of our being. Just like when a person breaks their leg - a cast is necessary for a time, even though it will never directly lead a person to walk again, no matter how long the person chooses to wear it. Indeed, if worn too long, it could lead to a person being crippled. Yet, no one who needs a cast for a time, ever talks about resenting they cast as a bad thing, In fact, to carry the analogy even farther, physical therapy can be viewed as a fulfillment of treatment - just like Christ is a fulfillment of they Law. Coming out of the Law is a move towards freedom, but it should not be a reason to look back on the Law as bad or a curse. Training wheels will never win a race, but they are necessary when you are first learning ride a bike.

sjmopas · Nov 23, 2014

Aspen,

Great analogies. Can I use them?

Raeneske · Nov 27, 2014

Julabee Jones said:
To shorten a long post...let me just give you two more short verses...

"And the law is not of faith..." Gal 3:12, and, Rom 14:23b, "for whatsoever is not of faith, is sin".

The law isn't of faith, and that which isn't of faith is sin...how quaint! But how eternally true...The law is not of faith, and whatsoever is not of faith is SIN.

So that Paul was no liar when he tells in Romans 7:1-6, that those who attempt (attempt only, for it is impossible to do) to marry grace with law, are, in the eyes of God according to God's Word, 'adulterers'...

God bless you,

I am and remain sincerely yours in grace and Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Is Paul an adulterer? The very law that Paul calls holy, just, and good, the same law that he says we are dead to, is the very same law that he serves with his mind. It is not the law that died, but it is we that have died. And if we have died, we will live the life of Christ which was obedient to that holy law. The law demanded the death of the sinner, therefore through Christ we have died. Now Christ lives in us. And if Christ lives in us, how shall we think we do not have to obey that law?

haz said:
You said we are to do our best to obey the law.
Is this what you describe as establishing the law (Rom 3:31)?
How much obedience to the law do you suggest is the minimum requirement for one to meet this requirement to establish the law? I ask this question as you seem to be suggesting that some minimum standard of obedience to the law is required.

Please read what I also said to Jubalee.

I do not suggest that there is a minimum standard of obedience. I said we are to do our best to obey the law. Anything short of that is unacceptable.

haz said:
You correctly defined sin as transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
As most, if not all, Christians do not keep the Saturday Sabbath holy, as described in scripture, then are you suggesting that we are all lost as we are habitually disobeying the law and thus not establishing it?

Those who habitually disobey a commandment they know they are supposed to keep will be lost. There are those who do not believe the Sabbath is Saturday. God knows the hearts of each and every single person. Yes, all is lost to those who habitually disobey God's law. It does not matter the commandment. It can be taking the Lord's name in vain (He says He will NOT hold that person guiltless), those who habitually steal, lie, covet, etc. will lose everything. There is a perfect standard of righteousness that we are to obey.

Christ did not come to die so that we may break God's law as we please, yet claim salvation through faith. We are called to be like Christ, and to do the works of Christ. It is not the work of Christ to break our Father's law. His righteousness is not given to the soul in blatant transgression of the Law.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Notice, this is not saying that those who do the law are justified by the keeping of the law. That is impossible. Once you have sinned once, that is it. You need a Saviour. And that's what Christ is, our Saviour. He died for the sins we committed. And for our sins, He gives us His righteousness, yea even for our filthy rags of so called righteousness, He gives us His. Hence, we have no more condemnation. Yet we cannot claim that righteousness, and continue to live in open rebellion against God's Law.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Shall we break God's law because we are not under it, but grace? No, absolutely not. We are to obey every single precept of the Divine Law.

We are indeed saved by faith, but if your character is not in harmony with Christ's character, you will be lost. Those who claim to worship Christ, even if they do miracles in His name, yet transgress the law will be lost for their iniquity.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity is lawlessness. Those who live in lawlessness will be lost, despite if they claim to have faith in Christ. Even blatant transgression of one commandment will condemn us.

James 2:10-11 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Christ is our righteousness. But if you refuse to obey the commandments, then you are not Christ's. He says to the workers of iniquity, "I never knew you: depart from me".

haz · Nov 28, 2014

Raeneske said:

Hmmm.... dont know what happened in my last post. I'll try a different approach.

Hopefully you can connect the answer to the relevant part of your previous post #10.

Jubilee Jones is correct that in trying to mix works of the law, with grace, is adultery. It's spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24). Scripture gives us many warnings against this spiritual adultery.

You cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.
That is to be lukewarm, Rev 3:15.

Rae said:

Rae, as you can see I'm new to quoting others in sections like you did.

Anyway, will move on regardless.

You said we are to obey the law the best we can. You even spoke about habitual sin.

Can you provide scripture detailing what is habitual? Is it 7x70?

And also provide scripture detailing what is the minimum standard of obedience to the law that is deemed as obeying it the best we can. Without detailed answers to these questions then your claims are ambiguous, unhelpful and unscriptural.

You also quoted Matt 7 about those in iniquity. But if you note Matt 7:1,2 it says "with what judgement you judge, you will be judged".

So if we judge one's righteousness by obedience to the law, then that is the same measure that we will be judged by (and therefore found guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10).

But if we judge by the same measure of mercy/grace that God offered us, then that is the measure we will be judged by.

I suggest that the workers of iniquity that Matt 7:23 refers to is those who are judging by obedience to the law.
Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Hence we see that it's those who preach deeds of the law who are the workers of iniquity/lawlessness. Works of the law will be the measure that they will be judged by (Matt 7:1,2) and they will be found GUILTY of ALL the law (James 2:10).

But Christioans are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, GaL 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9. Hence we cannot be charged with sin/iniquity/lawlessness.

"Who shall law ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?." Rom 8:33

Jesus truly set us free from sin, John 8:34-36.
We've "ceased from sin"1Pet 4:1
We "cannot sin"1John 3:9.

This is not to say that we're perfect in physical behavior. Instead it refers to our position in Christ.

Now as for the behaviour/lifestyle that you are concerned about, we see that Christians obey Christ's commandment to love one another (1John 3:23). And love does no ill to another and it also shows the same love/grace to others that God showed us. Hence we forgive 7x70. Hence we do not judge another's righteousness by how well they obey the law.

heretoeternity · Nov 28, 2014

You should look at what law Paul is referring to..there is the law of Moses, the 613 sacrificial, feast, cleanliness, food, festival, etc laws...it is important to make the distinction between what Moses wrote and gave to the people, and what God wrote himself on tablets of stone, and gave to Moses to give to the people..the ten commandments. To call the ten commandments "a yoke of bondage" is blasphemy..
Apostle John in 1st John calls the ten commandments "not burdensome"...why do some "christians" have to call it bondage? Paul calls sin bondage.

Remember salvation is through the Son of God, His days and Commandments and NOT the sun god/satan and His days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are pagan based and non Biblical.

haz · Nov 28, 2014

heretoeternity said:
...it is important to make the distinction between what Moses wrote and gave to the people, and what God wrote himself on tablets of stone, and gave to Moses to give to the people..the ten commandments. To call the ten commandments "a yoke of bondage" is blasphemy..
.

2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The 10 commandments/ministry of condemnation and death is done away with, according to God's word.
Christians are under the much more glorious ministry of the spirit and righteousness. We are not under bondage/the law engraved in stones. We are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Gal 4:23-31
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman (Agar/the law/10 commandments engraved in stones), but of the free.

heretoeternity · Nov 28, 2014

You should be careful when misinterpreting Paul's words, as Peter in 2nd Peter 3.15,16 warns, it will lead to your destruction.

Remember Salvation is through the Son of God, His days and Commandments, and NOT the sun god/satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origins.

haz · Nov 28, 2014

heretoeternity said:
You should be careful when misinterpreting Paul's words, as Peter in 2nd Peter 3.15,16 warns, it will lead to your destruction.

True. For your own sake you should reconsider your misinterpretation of scripture.
We all need to be careful of what we preach too.

James 3:1
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Note the example of error teaching used in James 3:6-11
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
With it we bless (love) our God and Father, and with it we curse (judge/condemn under the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation under the law). My brethren, these things ought not to be so.
Does a spring send forth freshwater (love/grace) and bitter (judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening?

Just as a spring cannot bring forth both fresh water and bitter from the same opening, then likewise nor can we mix works of the law, with grace.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

heretoeternity · Nov 28, 2014

Paul said in Romans "do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid", and "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law"
Apostle John defines sin as "transgression of God's law" 1st John..

Remember salvation is through the Son of God, His days and Commandments, and NOT the sun god/satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are pagan based and NON Biblical.

haz · Nov 28, 2014

heretoeternity said:
Paul said in Romans "do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid", and "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law"
Apostle John defines sin as "transgression of God's law" 1st John..

True, sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
And whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
Hence we see that Christians have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1), we "cannot sin" (1John 3:9).

Who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect. It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was justified, and there was no charge of sin that could be laid against him, even though he did not obey the law.

"do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, we establish the law"

The law is just, holy and good, Rom 7:12. The law is clearly not voided through faith. But as a means for us to attain righteousness, it was ended in Christ Rom 10:4. It was done away with, replaced by the much more glorious ministry of the spirit/righteousness 2Cor 3:7-11.

So how do we then establish the law?
Legalists will argue that we must attain some minimum standard of obedience to it. Unfortunately they cannot show scripture detailing what that minimum standard is. A few legalists will point correctly that perfect obedience is required (James 2:10), but then they fail to attain this themselves anyway.

Christians (as opposed to legalists) establish the law by admitting that the law is good, just and holy(Rom 7:12), and our own righteousness is as filthy rags and that we're deserving of the law's death penalty for sin. We submit to God's righteousness and we appeal to His mercy.

Legalists however, do not do submit to God's righteousness.
Rom 10:3
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Rom 9:31
but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

heretoeternity · Nov 29, 2014

So you do not believe the words of Jesus, in Matthew 5, John 14, or Matthew 19, and you do not believe apostle John in his letters, and you do not believe Paul, in Romans, which I quoted to you..but you chose to try and misrepresent the word of God by trying to make irrelevant sections pertain to support your argument against the word of God..that is your choice..you see God gave us all free will to follow His Holy word or not follow it..you apparently chose the latter.

Remember salvation is through the Son of God, His grace, days and Commandments, and NOT the sun god/satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are pagan based and NON Biblical

haz · Nov 29, 2014

heretoeternity said:
So you do not believe the words of Jesus, in Matthew 5, John 14, or Matthew 19, and you do not believe apostle John in his letters, and you do not believe Paul, in Romans, which I quoted to you.

You misunderstand scripture.

Matt 5:18-19 I agree that the law will not pass till all is fulfilled. In fact we see the law at the end in Rev 20 at the great white throne where those under the law will be judged by it. To break even just one of the least of the commandments means that such will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven.

But Christians, who are not under the law for righteousness, will be found in the book of life (Jesus). They will not be judged by the books of the law.

John 14:15,21, Christians do keep his commandments.
What are Christ's commandments?
1John 3:22,23
whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

We see these same commandments in John 3:16 and John 13:34.

Matt 19:17-22
Note the reply Jesus gave to that young man, who admitted that he "lacked" in spite of his keeping the law.
Matt 19:21-22
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Remember that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2;14. Let's now consider scripture from the spiritual perspective.

If we want to be perfect (which Christians have through Christ's sacrifice, Heb 10:14) then we obey his commandment to believe on him.

Christians forsake their own worldly riches/self-righteousness and give to the spiritually poor (the lost). That is we preach the gospel of the kingdom, that if we believe on Jesus we will have life everlasting.

And note how the young man found the message from Jesus disappointing as he had "great possessions".
What were his "great possessions"?
It was self-righteousness through deeds of the law, as we saw in Matt 19:20.

But, if we read Matt 19 in physical terms, as the natural man would (1Cor 2:14), then we will misunderstand scripture (just like Nicodemus, who thought born again meant going back into his mother's womb). Scripture is spiritually discerned (1Cor 2:14). The bible is like the parables Jesus gave, the understanding of which is given to those who are believers. It's Christians who are given to know the mysteries of the kindgom.

Luke 8:10
And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.’

Even Paul in Romans and John in his epistles confirm the Christians are not under the law.

Our works that shows our faith (James 2) is that we Christians believe on Jesus. These are the works that Jesus told us we should do, John 6:29.
The sin that the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9
God's will for us is that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

The law is not part of this. In fact the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.
As I showed in my previous post, we cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

heretoeternity · Nov 29, 2014

Hebrews 10..if you are truly saved, God will write His laws on your heart and mind and I will be their God and hey will be my people Jeremiah 31....so if you are saved and spirit filled with God's Holy spirit, you will not want to sin, or disobey God's law. Salvation is provided for those who call on the name of Jesus, repent and follow His Commandments (law)..as Paul goes on to say if you keep on sinning after this point there is no other sacrifice availablde for you, as you have turned your back on the saving grace and blood of Jesus...

Remember salvation is through the Son of God, His grace, days and laws and NOT the sun god/satan and his days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are pagan based and NON Biblical!

We Are Dead to the Law

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“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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