Heaven

Trekson · Oct 16, 2014

HEAVEN

There has been a discussion lately on the reality of heaven. I’ve been taught that heaven is the believer’s eternal home and the earth is for the living and in a way, that’s true and (much to my surprise) in a way, it’s not. While pondering this issue and seeking guidance from the Lord, He led me to a box of books my brother was giving away. In it was a book called “Heaven” by Randy Alcorn. I can’t say I agreed with all of his conclusions but he quoted a verse, which I must have read a thousand times, yet it never “sunk in”. It’s Rev. 21:3 (NIV) – “And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.”

Now the concept of the NJ wasn’t new to me but I had always assumed it had to deal with Christ and “glossed over” the thought that God, the Father was involved with this as well. Recently, in a discussion with Keras I made a remark wondering why people believed “they were doomed to live on earth forever”. I publically repent for saying that and I was wrong in my understanding. We will indeed reside forever in the newly remodeled “new heavens and new earth”. At some point in time the NJ will descend from heaven and, in a way, God will be bringing heaven with Him.

Now, with that being said, have I changed my mind regarding the fact the believer’s go to heaven and that heaven will be our destination at the resurrection/rapture? No, I have not!

To describe heaven in the here and now, Alcorn uses the terms, “intermediate” heaven, “temporary” heaven and/or “present” heaven. I’ll just use the word “heaven” for brevity’s sake and by heaven I mean, “The abode of God”. I picture it as very Earth-like or Eden-like.

Paul’s teaching in… 2Co 5:6, 8 “Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: ... 8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

…is not a new concept. The author of Ecclesiastes shared the same viewpoint. Ec. 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

Paul also refers to it in: Phil. 1:21-23 “For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labor: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:”

This concept is repeated in Phil. 3:20 “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:” The word “conversation” means our “community” or our “citizenship”.

In the bible, it’s not always “called” heaven. In Luke 16:22-31, it’s called Abraham’s bosom. In Heb. 11:10, it’s called a city, in vs. 16, it’s called a country, in Matt. it’s referred to as: 8:11 “And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

We know that Jesus is there by Stephen’s eye-witness account. Act 7:55-56 “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”

The Revelation of Christ to John, shows a little of what the throne room looks like. Jesus promised the thief in… Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” The Strong’s Gr. 3857 calls “paradise”… a “park” or the “place of future happiness”.

Jesus told us in John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.”

This is also referencing the resurrection/rapture of the church, imo. It’s plain to see that Christ was preparing to receive them in “His father’s house”, which is yet another term to describe heaven and where Christ is now. As I have shown, there are multiple verses describing the destination of the souls who have passed from this life to the next, which is heaven. But there is more proof.

Rev 6:9-11 “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.”

If one considers the “throne” as the pinnacle point in heaven, then all the rest of heaven is “under the altar”. Does this mean only martyred souls go there? Of course not! Here’s another one.

Heb. 12:1 “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.”

Who are these ‘witnesses”? Simply the souls of those who have gone on before, personified by those listed in the previous chapter, Heb. 11.

Keras keeps listing John 3:13 as “proof” no one goes to heaven. “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” But that is only as good until Christ’s, the “first-fruits” resurrection. After that, things changed.

We have this report in 1 Peter 3:19-22 – “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”

I believe the picture here is that Christ went to those in a “spiritual prison” and preached the gospel. Then because of His resurrection, those that accepted His message were resurrected with Him and brought to heaven with Him. He certainly wouldn’t leave them behind in their imprisoned state.

This is also verified by Paul in Eph. 4:8-10 – “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) This is what is meant by the phrase, he set the captives free.

I know there is a debate on when the NJ arrives. Is it at the beginning of the millennium or at the end? If one believes, as I do, in the mostly sequential timing of events in Revelations, then it appears to arrive after Satan is let loose to try and deceive the nations again. Which makes sense to me because all the descriptions of the new heavens and new earth suggest permanency and perfection and I don’t believe the devil would be allowed into that scenario. At the end of the millennium, the earth is destroyed by fire, something which won’t happen to the new heavens and earth.
So, in conclusion, yes we will spend some time in heaven before the eternal nature of the NJ comes to earth. The millennium is only a thousand years long so if you believe this verse:

2 Pet. 3:8 – “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” We’ll only be in heaven for about a day before our eternity on the new earth begins. Why is that so unreasonable to believe?

Marcus O'Reillius · Oct 16, 2014

Very good, now combine 1Pe 3:22 with John 14:2-3:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

That combines both the Rapture for those who are still alive and remain on the Earth after the Great Tribulation with their final destination of the third Heaven of God the Father's presence as the Great Multitude.

keras · Oct 16, 2014

Marcus, you have made a mistake to quote John 14:2-3 as proof of going to heaven. It says.....I shall come again and take you to Myself, so that where I am there you may be also. Jesus will come again- to earth and His people will be gathered to Him - on earth. Only someone reading that with the agenda of the fanciful notion of actually going to live in God's dwelling place would mis-read it and think that.

Trekson, I have Randy Alcorns book; Heaven. I would recommend it to anyone, he makes it perfectly clear that at no stage do humans go to heaven. I do actually see the use of Peters quote as unreasonable and kind of silly to think we go to heaven for one day.
Here is my article on that subject:

Do humans ever go to heaven?
The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.
Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."
All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?
Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach
otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.
The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.
Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the
Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.
Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period
of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.

IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
Christians use such terminology all the time. Preachers use it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?
The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall one day, some day, go where God the Father dwells.
There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.
I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words[SIZE=medium]....2 Cor. 12:2-4 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The third heaven is where God dwells![/SIZE]

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "[SIZE=medium]Kingdom OF God[/SIZE]"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 [SIZE=medium]But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven[/SIZE].....Luke 6:23 [SIZE=medium]To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. [/SIZE]1 Peter 1:4
Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of
the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of
life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal at Christ's return in glory, when the resurrection of the righteous saints takes place. See John 5: 25-29; 1 Cor. 15; 1
Thess. 4: 16; and John 6: 37-39.

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in
another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23
Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16
Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return when the saints are resurrected. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.
Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.
Yes, again Paul says we look to, wait, hope for Christ's Return and the resurrection.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the righteous, those accounted worthy, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one [SIZE=medium]day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Luke 21:34-36[/SIZE]
Ref: Keith Hunt

Retrobyter · Oct 16, 2014

Shalom, Marcus.

Marcus O'Reillius said:
Very good, now combine 1Pe 3:22 with John 14:2-3:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

That combines both the Rapture for those who are still alive and remain on the Earth after the Great Tribulation with their final destination of the third Heaven of God the Father's presence as the Great Multitude.

No, that's not right. As Trekson just said, there is NO "going to heaven." One can go "THROUGH the heaven" to somewhere else on earth, but there's no "Heaven" to go to! The "third heaven," as Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:13, is a FUTURE atmosphere around the third earth!

Now, think: Where can one go from God the Father's presence? Is He omnipresent or not?! Yes, He's omnipresent, or everywhere at once! So, where can one go where God is not?!

Psalm 139:7-12
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
KJV

"Heaven" or rather the New Jerusalem (the description of which is frequently given for the description for "Heaven") COMES TO EARTH; we don't go to "Heaven!"

Revelation 21:1-3
1 And I saw a new heaven (sky; atmosphere) and a new earth: for the first heaven (sky; atmosphere) and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky; out of the atmosphere), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the sky; the atmosphere) saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

The word in verses 1, 2, and 3 is the Greek word "ouranos." It is NOT "epouranios!" Therefore, we are reading about the atmosphere of this planet! "Epouranios," "above the sky," is the place where the sun, moon, and stars are (1 Cor. 15:40-41). "Mesouraneema," "in the middle of ouranos" or "in the middle of the atmosphere" is where the birds fly (Rev. 19:17).

The "kingdom of heaven" (basileia ouranou) is the "Kingdom FROM the sky!" It's not the genitive case; it's the ABLATIVE case! Just as the New Jerusalem lands on the New Earth AFTER the Millennium, the Lord Himself, the Messiah (Anointed to become King) who will then be the Melekh (King) of Isra'el and then gradually of the whole earth, will likewise come back FROM the sky!

The parables about the Kingdom in Matthew 13 are NOT about the present time period! They are about that Kingdom during the future Millennium!

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age).
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This is parallel in thought to Paul's discourse on the resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (1) they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then (2) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Thus, after the Millennium, in which the Messiah/Melekh is "putting all enemies under His feet," He delivers up the Kingdom to God His Father and remains subject unto Him forever during the Eternal State when the New Jerusalem descends to the newly re-created New Earth.

We don't go to the New Jerusalem or "Heaven"; the New Jerusalem comes HERE! To the renovated New Earth!

When Yeshua` said the words He said in John 14:1-4, pay really close attention to the wording:

John 14:1-4
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house (the New Jerusalem, the "tabernacle of God" or the "tent-home of God," like Abraham's tent-home: Rev. 21:3; Heb. 11:9) are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
KJV

Yeshua` will have already COME BACK to this earth when He "receives us to Himself" and He doesn't "take" us anywhere except wherever HE is going! Having already come back, His mission will be to rescue His people Isra'el from their oppressors, all the Islamic countries around them, possibly including ISIS!

When will the Lord return? He has TOLD us!

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

He will return when Isra'el, particularly those of Jerusalem, can WELCOME HIM (BARUWKH HABA') AS THE MESSIAH - HE THAT COMES IN THE AUTHORITY OF YAH! THAT'S when He will return!

Trekson · Oct 17, 2014

Hi Keras, Your words: "Trekson, I have Randy Alcorns book; Heaven. I would recommend it to anyone, he makes it perfectly clear that at no stage do humans go to heaven. I do actually see the use of Peters quote as unreasonable and kind of silly to think we go to heaven for one day."

The first line of what you wrote is blatantly untrue. Perhaps it's been awhile since you read the book. For starters: pg. 18, para. 2, line 1 - Quote: "Think of friends or family members who loved Jesus and are with him now."

He goes into more detail in Chapter 5 - "What is the nature of the present heaven?" Perhaps a re-read would be in order.

Regarding the second line, it's pretty self-explanatory that God's time isn't the same as our time. What may seem like a day to us will be a thousand yrs. on earth time.

Hi Retro, Your words: "No, that's not right. As Trekson just said, there is NO "going to heaven." One can go "THROUGH the heaven" to somewhere else on earth, but there's no "Heaven" to go to! The "third heaven," as Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:13, is a FUTURE atmosphere around the third earth."

For clarification, I did not say there is NO going to heaven, that was Keras.

Sorry, but your insistence on there not being an actual place called heaven just flies in the face of all the scriptures that say otherwise. One can not or should not think that a word that has as a definition, "the abode of God" as well as "our atmosphere", eliminate the first as a viable definition for every time it is used. It's not future, it's a present reality as you will pleasantly find out some day, if the Lord tarries.

miriam40012 · Oct 20, 2014

holy

keras · Oct 20, 2014

Trekson, you are a funny fellow. Randy Alcorn is discussing peoples perceptions of what they think heaven is like, NOT that anyone is living there now or will ever go to God's dwelling place. His point is that the new earth WILL be as good as that.
What Randy discusses in Chapter 5, is a intermediate place where our spirit/soul is kept, until the Day of Judgement. That Day for believers will be at the Return and for unbelievers at the end of the Millennium.

Isaiah 51 is a very interesting chapter, it starts: Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, all who seek the Lord...... A message to all Christian people and the truth of what we should all be looking forward to;

[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 51:7-8 Listen to Me, My people, those who know what is right, you that lay My instructions to heart and do not fear the taunts of the enemy. For they will be like a garment eaten by moths, but My saving power will last forever. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath will reduce the power of the godless peoples, but not totally destroy them.] Isaiah 51:6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 51:9-11 Awake, Awake: arm of the Lord, put on Your strength as You did in days long past. It was You that dried up the sea to make a path for your people. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]And now, the Lords people, set free, will come back and enter Zion with shouts of triumph. They will have gladness and joy, while suffering and mourning will pass away.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][This is the second Exodus, His people return to the Land, then cleared and cleansed – great will be the day! Ezekiel 20:33-38][/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 51:12-16 I am He who comforts you, why then fear man who must die. Why have you forgotten your Maker, the One who makes all things? Do not be in fear of your oppressor, you will soon be set free. I am the Lord, your God, Y’hovah is My Name. I have put words in your mouth and kept you covered under the shelter of My hand. I, the Creator, say to Zion: you are My people. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][The Lord will protect His people on that terrible Day – a worldwide judgement of fire, in the form of a massive CME sunstrike – the next prophesied event. Isaiah 30:26-29] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 51:17-23 Arouse yourselves, rise up Jerusalem – My people. From the Lord’s hand, you have drunk the cup of His wrath and now there is no one to lead you. The disasters of the sword, famine and desolation have overtaken you, now who can console you? Therefore; listen to this, in your affliction, you that are drunk, but not with wine: Thus says Y’hovah, your God who will plead His peoples cause – I take from your hand My cup of wrath and I shall hand it to your tormentors, those who walked all over you. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Ref; REB. some verses abridged[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] This is another clear sequence of events – how The Lord’s day of vengeance and wrath punishes His enemies and then, His righteous people will travel to and settle in the new Land of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 31 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]From verse 18, we can see that all this passage from Isaiah 51, is before the Return of Jesus. This will happen later, after His people have come back and are living in the Land in peace and prosperity, as so well described in Ezekiel 36 and Hosea 14.......they will again dwell in My shadow, they will grow and flourish[/SIZE].
[SIZE=medium] ‘Listen to Me! Prepare yourselves My people’.[/SIZE] You have received all the punishments that I decreed. You are insensible, not with wine, but to the truth of the Word of your God. Amos 8:11-12
[SIZE=medium] Now, I will take out My wrath on our enemies, but I will protect you and set you free. You will go back to all that Land I promised to your forefathers. Jeremiah 46:27, Jeremiah 31:1-14, Zechariah 9:16, Habakkuk 3:13, Joel 3:16, Isa. 27:6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]

Trekson · Oct 20, 2014

Hi Keras, Your words: "What Randy discusses in Chapter 5, is an intermediate place where our spirit/soul is kept, until the Day of Judgement. That Day for believers will be at the Return and for unbelievers at the end of the Millennium."

Yes, he calls it the "present" heaven!!!

keras · Oct 20, 2014

Trekson said:
Hi Keras, Your words: "What Randy discusses in Chapter 5, is an intermediate place where our spirit/soul is kept, until the Day of Judgement. That Day for believers will be at the Return and for unbelievers at the end of the Millennium."

Yes, he calls it the "present" heaven!!!

I do not agree with Randy Alcorn on this unsupported by scripture theory. Although there is what I see as an allegory, in Rev. 6:9, where the souls of those who have been killed for keeping their faith, are kept 'under the altar'. It does not say that altar is in heaven and they are obviously not living in the normal way in that situation.
That maybe the closest anyone can get to 'heaven' as you perceive it. Just refuse to 'take the mark of the beast' and get your head chopped off. But know this: those who believe in God and keep their faith during this next event, the judgement/punishment by fire of the Sixth Seal, Isaiah 66:15-16, etc, will not be a part of the OWG, as they will be living in a 'heavenly' situation in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

Trekson · Oct 20, 2014

Hi Keras, Your words: "I do not agree with Randy Alcorn on this unsupported by scripture theory."

The idea of heaven is supported by many scriptures, but I assume you scratched his book off of your recommended list.

I'm probably going to regret asking this but you said: "the judgement/punishment by fire of the Sixth Seal, Isaiah 66:15-16, etc, will not be a part of the OWG, as they will be living in a 'heavenly' situation in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5."

Does this mean you believe the OWG and "Beulah" will be around at the same time?

keras · Oct 20, 2014

Although some other posters say 'God is everywhere', therefore heaven is everywhere, that is not quite correct, in my view. God does have a 'dwelling place' and humans, [Ezekiel, John, etc] have visited there.
So yes, heaven IS supported by many scriptures, but never your contention that humans go to live there at any time. John 3:13 could not be clearer: no person goes to heaven.

Yes, after this worldwide disaster of 'fire from the sky', Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 63:1-6 and about 70 other prophesies, the survivors will form a OWG, but those who held firm to the faith, 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Cor. 3:12-15, will be protected, Isaiah 43:2, Psalm 23:4 and will gather in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:34-38, and enter into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 30:29, Isaiah 66:18-20, Jer. 23:3, Hosea 2:14-23 and many other great promises of God to His people. THAT is our promise and from the descriptions; Ezekiel 36, Jer. 31, Joel 2:21-29, Isaiah 35, Romans 8:18, etc, it WILL be a 'heavenly' place to be.

Marcus O'Reillius · Oct 21, 2014

Anytime someone tells me something is "clear," or in this case, "clearer;" I know it is not a clear-cut case of explicit wording in the Bible, but rather their own conclusion.

John 3:13 is not about people's ultimate home in Heaven... context; context; context.

keras · Oct 21, 2014

Nicodemus had difficulty believing Jesus when He spoke about earthly things, so how could he believe the things about heaven? So then Jesus made an irrefutable statement, that no one goes to heaven, except the One who come down from there. Then Jesus goes on to say that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life. No mention in this context, or anywhere in the Bible, of 'people's ultimate home in heaven'.

What is the problem in believing in the reality of God's promises? Of a 'heaven on earth', where we will live in peace and prosperity, preparing for the Return of King Jesus.
I have prepared free scripture studies on this at logostelos.info

Trekson · Oct 21, 2014

Hi Keras, You've been shown about your faulty interpretation of John 3:13. I agree that it might have been the case before Christ's resurrection but His resurrection changed everything.

Your words: "What is the problem in believing in the reality of God's promises? Of a 'heaven on earth', where we will live in peace and prosperity, preparing for the Return of King Jesus."

The "heaven on earth" part will eventually become a reality but not until after Christ returns and not until after the millennium. Beulah will never occur before The King returns.

keras · Oct 21, 2014

The new nation of Beulah, born in one Day, Isaiah 66:7-9, Isaiah 62:1-5, will be formed when the Lord's people. righteous Israel, gather and march into the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 62:10-12.
They will elect their own leaders, Jer.30:21, Hosea 1:11 and from how many other scriptures say; 'you will know that I the Lord has done this - I am with them, Ezekiel 34:30, in the same way as for the ancient Israelites, 1 Cor. 10:1-12, then we can be sure that it all happens before the Return. Its all as detailed in Revelation, the sequence of events, leading up to the Return.

Its time, Trekson and Marcus for you to cease making wrong statements, to read and understand the truth of what God has planned for His people. Incorrect beliefs will not help you when the SHTF.

Trekson · Oct 21, 2014

Hi Keras, To hold the stance you do you must be either amil or post-mil. I reviewed your scriptures and as I'm pre-mil I do see those things occurring but after Christ returns for Armageddon, after the sheep and goat judgment, and at the beginning of the millennium. Just different points of view, that's all.

Marcus O'Reillius · Oct 21, 2014

keras said:
Jesus made an irrefutable statement, that no one goes to heaven,

Wrong. The point was no had gone to Heaven and came back to tell Nicodemus what he wanted to know. Jesus is the only one to have done both.

Jesus is not making a categorical statement that no one EVER goes to Heaven. He was not addressing where we go when we die. Context, context, context.

When the thief on Jesus' right defended Jesus, Jesus said that on that day, that they would be in Paradise, the first realm of Heaven from which the Dead in Christ are raised up from to be delivered before the Father in the third Heaven of His Presence. THAT'S what's in the Bible.

You're in the minority opinion about not going to Heaven as our eternal reward for a good reason. (Besides, everyone knows from Disney that all dogs go to Heaven.)

keras · Oct 21, 2014

Trekson, if you mean a rapture by 'pre-mil or a-mil', then I absolutely do not believe either stance. If you mean when Jesus Returns, then Rev 20 plainly tells us He comes down to earth for His 1000 year reign.

Re the true meaning of John 3:13, I have made my belief clear, I take Jesus' statement to mean what it says. It would be good if other forum members gave their opinion on this.

Because no one can find a scripture that says any human ever goes to heaven, [God's dwelling place] to live in a conscious and normal way, [maybe it s full of dogs!] then I remain un refuted.

I reiterate what the Prophetic Word actually says: 'In the time of His favour', the Lord's righteous people will go free; the One who loves them will guide and feed them, as they come from every direction, shouting for joy, into Zion, [All of the holy Land, from the Nile to the Euphrates.] into a Land made desolate by the Lord, [the sixth seal, Psalm 83 devastation of the Middle east] but now too small for all its inhabitants, [Millions of true believers] transported and served by the nations and their enemies will be all gone. Isaiah 49:8-23
Isn't that something to look forward to? And we will have work to do, none of the foolish deception of being 'whisked away' and shirking your duty now!

Marcus O'Reillius · Oct 21, 2014

It's a false argument to say anyone is shirking their duty to be faithful, endure patiently, and remain steadfast if they look forward to being caught up with Jesus in the clouds.

Keras, you do not remain un-refuted when I refute you. That statement is not logical. You are only self-justifying your prior belief in which most not only don't share, but dismiss as readily as I do.

keras · Oct 22, 2014

Marcus, your 'refutation' to my explanation of John 3:13, is merely your opinion. You make no reference to any commentary, Bible study or other support for your stance, let alone any scriptural proofs. But that is what I expect, because both you and Trekson have consistently ignored my requests to provide scriptures that say anyone will go to live in heaven. John 3:13 is perfectly logical, it is the rapture to heaven delusion that is illogical.

Re our work: The Lord's people, redeemed, restored and living in all of the holy Land, Jer. 32:37-44, will rebuild the ruined towns, Jer. 30:18, Isaiah 58:12, Ezekiel 38:8, they will, at last, be a light to the Nations, Isaiah 42:6, Matthew 5:13-15, display His glory, Ezekiel 39:27, and spread the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus around the world. Rev 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19
I'm anticipating this will be an amazing time, an incredible and blessed few years, while we prepare for the glorious Return of Jesus.

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