The Christian Church today is to be condemned/cursed.

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Johnlove

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hopeingod said:
Please, give me a break. There's sin in us all, everyone of us who believed in the Lord Jesus. To condemn us is pure insanity. Condemnation is one of two judgments, the second being discernment. When someone is condemned, they lack the ability due to distraction, normally emotional, from seeing the way out, the escape, repentance. Condemnation is not godly sorrow, but worldly sorrow, which usually takes the form in one who is sorry he/she got caught.

All the commandments and principles to live by were given for our instruction, while at the same time we've been told that it is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. We need His help, and sometimes rather than seek it, we tend to justify our misdeeds.

Love covers a MULTITUDE of sins.....and these three abide, faith, hope and charity, and the greatest of these is charity. And, even when we believe not, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself....yet His lovingkindness will He not utterly take from us, nor suffer His faithfulness to fail....we're graven on the palms of His hands....He swore to Himself to keep us, for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus.

May the Spirit of God provide a revelation of the love of God and His commitment to his sons and daughters to john"love," in Jesus name, amen.
[SIZE=16pt]Explain how John can be wrong in the following scripture? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]It is God’s written Word, and no one can change the written Word of God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) “Whoever claims to remain in him must act as he acted.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Ask your self did Jesus sin? John says if one claims to live in Jesus he or she must walk as Jesus did. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Does your church say you must walk as Jesus did or acted?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul also tells us Christians are dead to sin. Does your church teach what Paul taught?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Romans 6:10-11) “For by dying, he is dead to sin once and for all, and now the life that he lives is life with God. In the same way, you must see yourselves as being dead to sin but alive for God in Christ Jesus.”[/SIZE]
 

Wormwood

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Johnlove,

If you want to have a meaningful conversation, then I encourage you to converse. I could quote 8 verses to you to respond to all the things you are implying, but it would be of no use. Spamming verses is ridiculous. You are ignoring both the literary and historical contexts in your scripture pasting, and, I assure you I have read all of these verses. Yes, we are to love our enemies as believers. Our individual interactions should be of grace and love. However, if a militia group came into your neighborhood and started shooting everyone in sight...it is right and good for someone to stop that massacre of the helpless...whether it is a Christian or non-Christian. I find it to be a terribly inconsistent and irrational view to suggest that it is "good" for civil authorities to protect the weak, but "bad" if Christians are those authorities using their position to protect the weak. I don't think God's moral code is contingent on titles or shifts for believers and unbelievers. There is no verse in the Bible that would make such an assertion.

Moreover, you don't sound very loving toward other believers by declaring they should be condemned. You seem to have more love for your enemies than you do for your brothers and sisters. Again, pacifism is not the gospel. Our call to love our enemies is not the Gospel message that the early church preached. IF you think "love your enemies" is the Gospel, then you are tied up in a works-based righteousness dependent upon how loving people are...which may explain why you are so quick to condemn those who do not agree with you.

ANd as a side note, I have never seen one church using their fellowship time to promote a war. I think your entire argument is a straw man. I have never been in a church service where war was promoted or encouraged.
 

Johnlove

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Wormwood said:
Johnlove,

If you want to have a meaningful conversation, then I encourage you to converse. I could quote 8 verses to you to respond to all the things you are implying, but it would be of no use. Spamming verses is ridiculous. You are ignoring both the literary and historical contexts in your scripture pasting, and, I assure you I have read all of these verses. Yes, we are to love our enemies as believers. Our individual interactions should be of grace and love. However, if a militia group came into your neighborhood and started shooting everyone in sight...it is right and good for someone to stop that massacre of the helpless...whether it is a Christian or non-Christian. I find it to be a terribly inconsistent and irrational view to suggest that it is "good" for civil authorities to protect the weak, but "bad" if Christians are those authorities using their position to protect the weak. I don't think God's moral code is contingent on titles or shifts for believers and unbelievers. There is no verse in the Bible that would make such an assertion.

Moreover, you don't sound very loving toward other believers by declaring they should be condemned. You seem to have more love for your enemies than you do for your brothers and sisters. Again, pacifism is not the gospel. Our call to love our enemies is not the Gospel message that the early church preached. IF you think "love your enemies" is the Gospel, then you are tied up in a works-based righteousness dependent upon how loving people are...which may explain why you are so quick to condemn those who do not agree with you.

ANd as a side note, I have never seen one church using their fellowship time to promote a war. I think your entire argument is a straw man. I have never been in a church service where war was promoted or encouraged.
[SIZE=16pt]You being a moderator means if I prove you wrong then there is no more way for me to post on the forum.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]That means you can just go on believing Jesus did not mean what he said. [/SIZE]
 

Xhavon

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]I believe the one true church today are those who hear the Word of God, and live that Word.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I also believe that there are many people that God has called that are living his Word. But I also believe that as of now those people have not been brought together.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”[/SIZE]
Those who are walking in the Spirit of Christ are brought together no mater where their bodies are walking., There is "one Spirit", of Christ, and that Spirit has led them all into "one truth'. they are the ones who are prepared with faith, in Christ and God alone, for what is about to come here on earth. Christ once said "if the Light that is in you is darkness how great is that darkness". not many know what is coming and even if they were told they wouldn't hear it.
 

Enquirer

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]1) Jesus told us that we were to love our enemies. Going to war with our enemies is not loving them. The Government of the world is for evil doers. Christians are not evil doers and do not need laws, and law enforcers. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]2) A personal note. I served five years in the United States Armed forces. Jesus to make me truly understand what he told us about loving one’s enemies, came into my living room, and to me that we are not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. I believe scripture, and truly believe Jesus.[/SIZE]

3) The Church believes in a just war. There is no such thing for a Christian.
[SIZE=16pt]Christians say the trust God, yet if one picks up a gun to defend one’s self then he or she is not trusting God. It is much better to die, then disobey God.[/SIZE]
It seems to me that you pick and choose Scriptures that fit in with your own personal belief system and ignore those don't.
For a start Pacifism is in itself a doctrine of men, quite honestly it's satanic, that taken to it's conclusion will result in the destruction of the church.

1) Loving our enemies ... yes, we need to love our enemies by praying for them ... how else would you like to love your enemies ?
Would you like to go and hug them and hand them a Bible while they shoot you in the face, rape your wife and children, burn down your
church, introduce false worship of foreign gods, remove your freedom to worship God ?
Taken to it's logical conclusion you could love them so much that you could load the guns for them while they kill you, and even help them in
their attack against your nation, so where does it end ?

Turn the other cheek ... an interesting Scripture, but it does not mean what you think it means ... if it did then why did Jesus take up a rod and
drive the money changers out of the Temple, why did Jesus constantly berate the Pharisees and Sadducees by calling them snakes, children
of satan etc. ?
C'mon Jesus where's the love man ?
Why not just let the money changers alone, on second thoughts, why not just get in there and truly show his love for them by helping them to sell
their goods ?
No, in context Jesus was essentially speaking to individuals about extracting personal vengeance and showing mercy instead of judgement.
This has got nothing to do with war.

Christians do not need laws or law enforcers ... huh, what ... come again ... are you serious ?
I reckon then God is confused and contradicting himself by putting Rom 13 into Scripture, where He specifically states that government is from
God, and we need to obey them ... which means following the laws laid down by them ... something you reject.
Why don't we just ignore the opening words of Rom 13:1 ... "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities ...".
Everyone ? Nah, I don't think he means us does he, we're special right ? ... NO !

2) Personal revelation is great but it's not Scripture.

3) Wow ... taken to it's logical conclusion we just let evil overrun the world ... no more Bibles, no more churches, no more Christians.
A good doctrine if you like the devil.
 

Wormwood

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Johnlove,

I have yet to delete someone's comment or suspend an account for someone who disagreed with me (even when those disagreements have been heretical). So I would appreciate the courtesy of seeing my comment only as a means of helping to make this topic something engaging for more people...rather than everyone copying and pasting 8-10 verses with every post. Most people on this site are very familiar with the Bible. It is not that people do not know the Bible, but that their interpretations differ. So I would encourage you to help people understand why you interpret things the way you do rather than just spamming passages as your replies.

Moreover, the rules on this site, that you agree to, state: "No Spam.Christianity Board is a place for thoughtful discussion."

"Thoughtful discussion" means that you discuss the verses and the topic, not just copy and paste a bunch of verses. If you want to cite multiple verses as proof-texts for your point, I suggest you simply write the location of the verse. People can put their cursor over the verses and see what they say and it wont take up their entire screen. If you want to emphasize a certain verse or highlight a particular translation, it is fine to quote it, but simply try to deal with one or two passages at a time. Otherwise, it turns more into a diatribe rather than a dialogue. For example,

"You still have not answered any of my responses Johnlove. You have not shown how the rejection of the doctrine of pacifism is twisting or preaching a false Gospel. Also, Romans 13:4 (you can put your cursor on the text to read it) makes it clear God is at work through the punishment of evil...even after Christ's declaration that we were to love our enemies. There is NO instruction in the NT that a requirement of becoming a Christian meant abandoning any military or police type of occupation. Much of the calls to passivity in the NT are with regards to our faith and suffering for doing what is good. It has nothing to do with police forces, intruding nationalities, or refusing to bring justice to serial killers. I think it is a wicked thing to see someone abusing or murdering a child or infant and simply walk away because we refuse to use any type of force. God condemned Israel in the past for refusing to act justly. Why? Because it is evil. Again, it is one thing to suffer for righteousness sake and for the cause of Christ. It is another thing altogether to see the helpless brutalized by violent and morally bankrupt people and not intervene." Isa. 1:16-17; 10:1-2; Prov. 21:3; Lam. 3:34-36; Amos 5:15; Matt. 23:23.
 

Johnlove

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Wormwood said:
Johnlove,

I have yet to delete someone's comment or suspend an account for someone who disagreed with me (even when those disagreements have been heretical). So I would appreciate the courtesy of seeing my comment only as a means of helping to make this topic something engaging for more people...rather than everyone copying and pasting 8-10 verses with every post. Most people on this site are very familiar with the Bible. It is not that people do not know the Bible, but that their interpretations differ. So I would encourage you to help people understand why you interpret things the way you do rather than just spamming passages as your replies.

Moreover, the rules on this site, that you agree to, state: "No Spam.Christianity Board is a place for thoughtful discussion."

"Thoughtful discussion" means that you discuss the verses and the topic, not just copy and paste a bunch of verses. If you want to cite multiple verses as proof-texts for your point, I suggest you simply write the location of the verse. People can put their cursor over the verses and see what they say and it wont take up their entire screen. If you want to emphasize a certain verse or highlight a particular translation, it is fine to quote it, but simply try to deal with one or two passages at a time. Otherwise, it turns more into a diatribe rather than a dialogue. For example,

"You still have not answered any of my responses Johnlove.
You have not shown how the rejection of the doctrine of pacifism is twisting or preaching a false Gospel
[SIZE=16pt]You read what Jesus told us, but don’t seem to understand what he meant, as I understand what Jesus is telling us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Let me then go on to explain how I came to my understanding.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I served five years in the USA Armed Forces. I believed one had a responsibility to defend one’s country.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus came to me personally in my late thirties and told me he would personally teach me about him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]One day Jesus walked into my living room, and told me that we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Then Jesus let me know that the Christian Church before Constantine the Great lived what he told me Christians did not harm anyone for any reason.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I have been taught by Jesus over the last forty years to trust Jesus in everything. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]God’s will is my will, and I only do as he tells me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]People say they trust God, but seem to have no idea what trusting God means.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]God told us not to store up for our future. But people think storing up for one’s retirement is good. All that says it people trust money more than God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]God told us that if someone takes something from us we are not to try to get it back. People call the police to get back stolen goods. They trust police more than God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Usury is evil, but people have savings accounts that give interest/usury. Again not obeying God or trusting God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I know this it is much better to die, then disobey God. Hurting/harming anyone in my understanding is disobeying God, and evil. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told us to love our enemies.[/SIZE]
. Also, Romans 13:4 (you can put your cursor on the text to read it) makes it clear God is at work through the punishment of evil...even after Christ's declaration that we were to love our enemies. There is NO instruction in the NT that a requirement of becoming a Christian meant abandoning any military or police type of occupation. Much of the calls to passivity in the NT are with regards to our faith and suffering for doing what is good. It has nothing to do with police forces, intruding nationalities, or refusing to bring justice to serial killers. I think it is a wicked thing to see someone abusing or murdering a child or infant and simply walk away because we refuse to use any type of force. God condemned Israel in the past for refusing to act justly. Why? Because it is evil. Again, it is one thing to suffer for righteousness sake and for the cause of Christ. It is another thing altogether to see the helpless brutalized by violent and morally bankrupt people and not intervene." Isa. 1:16-17; 10:1-2; Prov. 21:3; Lam. 3:34-36; Amos 5:15; Matt. 23:23.
 

Enquirer

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Usury is evil, but people have savings accounts that give interest/usury. Again not obeying God or trusting God.[/SIZE]
Jesus himself disagrees with you on this point, see Matt 25:24 to 27,

He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering
where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered
him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have
invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
 

Johnlove

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Enquirer said:
Jesus himself disagrees with you on this point, see Matt 25:24 to 27,

He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering
where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered
him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have
invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
[SIZE=16pt]Yes and Jesus said that in a parable to convey a message, and it was not for one to save money, or to collect interest on the money.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Read why Jesus used parables.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 13:10-14)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 Corinthians 6:9-19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Notice Paul ranks usurers along with Idolaters, adulterers, catamites, some truly good people right?[/SIZE]
 

Wormwood

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You read what Jesus told us, but don’t seem to understand what he meant, as I understand what Jesus is telling us.
Let me then go on to explain how I came to my understanding.
I served five years in the USA Armed Forces. I believed one had a responsibility to defend one’s country.
Jesus came to me personally in my late thirties and told me he would personally teach me about him.
One day Jesus walked into my living room, and told me that we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason.
Then Jesus let me know that the Christian Church before Constantine the Great lived what he told me Christians did not harm anyone for any reason.
I have been taught by Jesus over the last forty years to trust Jesus in everything.
God’s will is my will, and I only do as he tells me.
People say they trust God, but seem to have no idea what trusting God means.
God told us not to store up for our future. But people think storing up for one’s retirement is good. All that says it people trust money more than God.
God told us that if someone takes something from us we are not to try to get it back. People call the police to get back stolen goods. They trust police more than God.
Usury is evil, but people have savings accounts that give interest/usury. Again not obeying God or trusting God.
I know this it is much better to die, then disobey God. Hurting/harming anyone in my understanding is disobeying God, and evil.
Jesus told us to love our enemies.
First, I can only be obedient and base my beliefs on what the Word says, not your experiences. The Mormons also want me to believe in Joseph Smith's personal encounters with Jesus and how he gave him the answer to all the divisive topics of his day. A great many people have been led astray by those claiming such personal interactions with Jesus (or that they were the reincarnation of Jesus). So, while I am happy for you if you had these experiences and they were legitimate encounters with Jesus...but because the Word calls me to be discerning, do not be surprised if I am skeptical....especially given your eagerness to pronounce condemnation on believers.

Second, I have no problem if you want to be a pacifist. I think there are great and godly pacifists in the Kingdom of God. I have no problem if you want to never use a credit card, never get a home or car loan either. Go for it. Good for you.

However, when you say that people are condemned because they do not hold to the doctrine of pacifism and think its okay for a Christian to be a godly police officer then I think you are terribly mistaken. Such things are not the Gospel. The Gospel does not consist of one's occupation, views on justice of the oppressed in relation to force, or whether or not people take out a home loan. Next time you talk to Jesus, ask him if it is okay that you pronounce his condemnation on people who love him and live for him but disagree with you on whether or not its okay to get a loan in order to put a roof over their children's heads.
 

Johnlove

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Wormwood said:
First, I can only be obedient and base my beliefs on what the Word says, not your experiences. The Mormons also want me to believe in Joseph Smith's personal encounters with Jesus and how he gave him the answer to all the divisive topics of his day. A great many people have been led astray by those claiming such personal interactions with Jesus (or that they were the reincarnation of Jesus). So, while I am happy for you if you had these experiences and they were legitimate encounters with Jesus...but because the Word calls me to be discerning, do not be surprised if I am skeptical....especially given your eagerness to pronounce condemnation on believers.

Second, I have no problem if you want to be a pacifist. I think there are great and godly pacifists in the Kingdom of God. I have no problem if you want to never use a credit card, never get a home or car loan either. Go for it. Good for you.

However, when you say that people are condemned because they do not hold to the doctrine of pacifism and think its okay for a Christian to be a godly police officer then I think you are terribly mistaken. Such things are not the Gospel. The Gospel does not consist of one's occupation, views on justice of the oppressed in relation to force, or whether or not people take out a home loan. Next time you talk to Jesus, ask him if it is okay that you pronounce his condemnation on people who love him and live for him but disagree with you on whether or not its okay to get a loan in order to put a roof over their children's heads.
[SIZE=16pt]All of the following scripture says you are wrong. Yet you tell me that I am like Joseph Smith?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Did Smith follow the written Word of God?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]You criticize me for using scripture to confirm what I share. If what I share is not scriptural then show me just where in scripture it says I am wrong. Your opinion is not worth a hill of beans if it does not agree with the written Word of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I print out all of the written Word that confirms what I say. You criticize for doing that. I do that to save people time, and it is in consideration for other that I do that.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]But for you I will just point out the scripture that says you are wrong.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19[/SIZE]
(Luke 14:33)
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:44) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:39) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Luke 12:33) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]So now you find scripture that tells me I am wrong. I do not accept your opinion.[/SIZE]
 

Enquirer

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@ Johnlove ... Banking was a common practice in Israel, when the Jews from foreign countries came to Jerusalem they had to weigh
their currency in exchange for the currency used in the Temple ... and it was here where they took liberty and extracted more than
they should have.

Jesus never condemned the practice of money changing or interest.

I quote ...

"New Testament Banking is expressed by the Greek word for table, representing the table behind which a money changer stood. A familiar table in
the Temple at Jerusalem was that of the money changers (John 2:15 ). Many salesmen often displayed their goods on the ground, but these men
always put their coins on a table. They came to be known as “table-men,” money changers, or bankers. It was necessary to change foreign money
into Jewish money to pay the Temple tax. Jesus sternly disrupted this business of banking in the court of the Gentiles (Matthew 21:12 ) because it
went beyond the intended convenience and profaned the worship of God. Because of this challenge the Jewish leaders started looking for a way to
destroy Jesus (Mark 11:18 ). In the parable of the pounds (Luke 19:23 ) Jesus refers to a bank, where deposits could be made and interest earned.
Other banking terms and practices in the Bible include coins, exchangers, increase or interest, extortion, creditor, and debtor."

Taken from Studylight

Call it a parable if you want to but to the common Jew of the day and to Jesus this was normal practice and acceptable.
 

Julabee Jones

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If the Christian Church of today is in a 'condemnable' state...how then can it be the church?

For the church is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without
blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.

If that is Jesus' church, His body; is what we call the church today, really the church? Is the church today (whichis overwhelmingly ignorant of the Word) 'washed by the water of the word'? Is the church today a 'glorious' church?not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing? Is it holy? Is it without blemish?

When we speak of the things of God, it is important to remember that things are in truth, only what God sees them
to be...

Look at Revelation chapter one, for an important scriptural fact,

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." Rev 1:20.

This is the first revelation to be revealed, in a book chock full of revelations. And what is he here telling us?
Isn't it, that for the purposes of this exercise, this revelation or vision, the 'churches' are designated as
candlesticks? In other words, if a church is a candlestick, in God's eyes (and whose eyes are more important than
God's?), then we must allow it be so for us...and if it isn't a candlestick in God's eyes, then it MUST NOT BE a
church in our eyes.

Go then, to Revelation 2:4-5.

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

To the Church of Ephesus, God reveals dissatisfaction. He is not pleased that the church has left its first love.
And who would that first love be? Wouldn't it be Jesus Christ?

How many churches do you suppose there are, who are anything but in love with Jesus? Churches today are in love
with programs, buildings, ministries, money...all the trappings of the modern church that simply are NOT tantamountto loving Jesus Christ. How many churches of today are totally led by the Holy Spirit? Not many, right? In fact,
just about exactly the number that have either a printed bulletin, or a traditional order of service set in the
stone of tradition (so that the Holy Spirit is totally 'quenched')...How many on the other hand, are led by
committees, by the 'board', and, God forbid, by voting?

So Jesus tells them (and thousands upon thousands of churches today) to repent, and to do the first works. The
first works are loving Jesus, and doing all that you do out of that love. It is enjoying the first fire of romance in a godly way, it is love that looks not at yourself, but to the world God loved enough to send His only begotten Son to save...

And when we fail to do that? What does Jesus say He will do? It's really simple...

He will REMOVE YOUR CANDLESTICK from its place, and from the midst.

If then, as we're told, the word CANDLESTICK designates what is the church, in God's eyes...what then are we when
God removes the candlestick from the midst, and the designation of 'candlestick' from the church?

It's no longer a church...IN GOD'S EYES. It may meet in the most beautiful cathedral ever built. It may minister tothe roughest of the rough, the sinning-est sinners on earth. But if in God's eyes, it doesn't rate a candlestick,
if it doesn't come up to the definition of "Church", it's all wasted.

So then, how can we tell what is a church, and what is not a church? They all look very much the same. They all
claim to make the same claim. They all are, in their own eyes, the Church.

So how do we know if they are the church in God's eyes?

I believe we can know by the simple expedient of setting the so called 'church', any church, yours, mine, his and
hers, alongside the plumbline of God's Word. If it is
God who determines if a church is really a church...then don't we find out the truth of the entire matter by
seeking Him in His Word? Where HE will tell us what is a church, and what is not a church.

Think about it. Can you conceive in your mind and spirit, that what you attend, what you support, what you think isthe church...may not be a church at all, may in fact, be just a mutual admiration society PLAYING church? And
you're helping to pay for it, now...and might just end up paying for it eternally...

For if it isn't a church in God's eyes, what possible right have you got to believe that you're hearing the truth
there? And it is truth alone, in the person of Jesus Christ, that will take you to heaven.

God bless you!

I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones
 

Johnlove

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Enquirer said:
@ Johnlove ... Banking was a common practice in Israel, when the Jews from foreign countries came to Jerusalem they had to weigh
their currency in exchange for the currency used in the Temple ... and it was here where they took liberty and extracted more than
they should have.

Jesus never condemned the practice of money changing or interest.

I quote ...

"New Testament Banking is expressed by the Greek word for table, representing the table behind which a money changer stood. A familiar table in
the Temple at Jerusalem was that of the money changers (John 2:15 ). Many salesmen often displayed their goods on the ground, but these men
always put their coins on a table. They came to be known as “table-men,” money changers, or bankers. It was necessary to change foreign money
into Jewish money to pay the Temple tax. Jesus sternly disrupted this business of banking in the court of the Gentiles (Matthew 21:12 ) because it
went beyond the intended convenience and profaned the worship of God. Because of this challenge the Jewish leaders started looking for a way to
destroy Jesus (Mark 11:18 ). In the parable of the pounds (Luke 19:23 ) Jesus refers to a bank, where deposits could be made and interest earned.
Other banking terms and practices in the Bible include coins, exchangers, increase or interest, extortion, creditor, and debtor."

Taken from Studylight

Call it a parable if you want to but to the common Jew of the day and to Jesus this was normal practice and acceptable.
[SIZE=16pt]Yes how does your understanding stand up to the following scripture?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”[/SIZE]
 

Wormwood

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Johnlove,

I have pointed out numerous Scriptures to you. I cannot help it if you do not want to respond to them or ignore them. I cited about 6 verses that show that God demands justice and sees it as evil to ignore providing justice for the oppressed. How do you suppose we provide justice to the oppressed? By buying oppressors a bouquet of flowers? I told you also that I agree we are to suffer for righteousness sake. However, I also pointed to Romans 13 and how it clearly says that God uses the force that the government wields to distribute justice. Thus, it is NOT evil for those in civil positions to stop evil with force. There is NO VERSE in the Bible that says Christians cannot hold civil positions. You believe the verse that says, "be in the world but not of the world" means Christians cannot hold civil positions, but it simply does not.

NO verse in the Bible ever tells a soldier or policing person to quit their job in order to follow him. In fact, Jesus often praised Centurions because of their faith...which, according to you...the very role of being a soldier is evil and cannot be held by a person of faith. There is no consistency here in your hermeneutics.

Im not saying you are like Joseph Smith. I am saying that my conscience cannot be bound to your claims of visions and visits with Jesus. All kinds of people claim visions and so forth, but to follow them leads many to destruction. Like I said, I hope for your sake, you are being honest in your claims. Either way, I cannot be bound to your visions, only by the Word of God. I look at the totality of God's Word and its teaching on various topics and issues.

You are laying down the persecuted martyr syndrome pretty thick. No one is criticizing or attacking you. I was simply showing you that cutting and pasting 8 verses with no actual responses does not make for a dialogue. THis is how your lengthy quoting with no comments by you comes across...

“for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.” (Romans 13:4, ESV)

“But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.” (Matthew 8:8–10, ESV)

“Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”” (Luke 3:14, ESV)

“Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow’s cause.” (Isaiah 1:16–17, ESV)

This is what God's word SAYS! Why don't you believe God's Word?

Do you see how condescending this comes across?
 

Enquirer

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Yes how does your understanding stand up to the following scripture?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”[/SIZE]

Johnlove you need to read things in context, this will help a great deal in understanding Scripture.


Matt 6:19 ... You need to read this verse in it's context (19 - 21), Jesus is emphasizing that where your treasure is, that there will be your heart also
(v21) ... some tend to concentrate on their money and so Jesus is simply telling people that true wealth is in spiritual things ... and concentrating on and
performing these things is to store up real lasting treasure.

You need to understand the way Jesus speaks ... sometimes He uses extremes to highlight his point, for instance He says in Matt 23:9,

And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven

So is He really saying that we should not call our earthly father's "father" ?
Of course not, He in context is speaking to the Pharisees and highlighting their self promotion instead of recognising God.
Go read the chapter to see the context.
In both Matt 6:19 and Matt 23:9 Jesus is highlighting the spiritual instead of the earthly.

Please explain Luke 14:26 to me where Jesus says the following,

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he
cannot be my disciple".

Is He really saying we should hate our parents ? ... NO ... go read the context and do some homework to discover the answer.

The same applies for your next verse of Luke 12:33 and 14:33, go read the context.

Just a few questions for you ...

Have you given away everything you own ? ... I doubt it ... so you're in sin.
Do you have a bank account ? ... I'm sure you do ... so you're in sin.
Do you hate your mother and father ? ... if you do then you're in sin.
Do you disobey the civil laws of your country ? ... if you do then you're in sin.

I could go on and on ... I reckon I'm done with this topic.
 

Johnlove

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Enquirer said:
Johnlove you need to read things in context, this will help a great deal in understanding Scripture.

Matt 6:19 ...
You need to read this verse in it's context (19 - 21), Jesus is emphasizing that where your treasure is, that there will be your heart also
(v21) ... some tend to concentrate on their money and so Jesus is simply telling people that true wealth is in spiritual things ... and concentrating on and
performing these things is to store up real lasting treasure.

[SIZE=16pt]Read in context, like I took that verse out of context. To me you saying that I read that scripture out of context is just your attempt to give yourself some credibility.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]You can believe that is what Jesus was saying, but it is not what he said.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I asked Jesus if he meant just the way it was said, and the way I understood it to mean, and Jesus told me yes. [/SIZE]
You need to understand the way Jesus speaks ... sometimes He uses extremes to highlight his point, for instance He says in Matt 23:9,

[SIZE=16pt]I know how Jesus speaks, he has been speaking/teaching me for forty years. I know his voice, and I only follow him.[/SIZE]
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven

So is He really saying that we should not call our earthly father's "father" ?
[SIZE=16pt]No that is not what Jesus was saying. Jesus was saying we are all brothers, and calling any brother father is wrong.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus personally told me that it is dangerous to be called father, and dangerous to call someone your father.[/SIZE]
Of course not, He in context is speaking to the Pharisees and highlighting their self promotion instead of recognising God.
Go read the chapter to see the context.
In both Matt 6:19 and Matt 23:9 Jesus is highlighting the spiritual instead of the earthly.

Please explain Luke 14:26 to me where Jesus says the following,

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he
cannot be my disciple".
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus meant the following.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 10:37) “'No one who prefers father or mother to me is worthy of me. No one who prefers son or daughter to me is worthy of me.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus did use hyperbole, but he/Holy Spirit does not let his student misunderstand it. [/SIZE]
Is He really saying we should hate our parents ? ... NO ... go read the context and do some homework to discover the answer.

The same applies for your next verse of Luke 12:33 and 14:33, go read the context.

Just a few questions for you ...

Have you given away everything you own ? ... I doubt it ... so you're in sin.
[SIZE=16pt]Yes! After accepting Jesus’ call to his ministry he asked me to give him my life. I was about to say yes when the Holy Spirit told me I would lose everything owned by me, if I gave Jesus my life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I lost, and gave away everything owned by me, and also Jesus had me give up my business. I no longer had any training that allowed me to earn anywhere near what I had been earning.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I had three babies, the oldest not yet four years old, and the family had to live in a tent for some time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]For the next thirty some years I mostly earned minimum wage. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Everything that I use today is all owned in common with others, as did the Christians in Acts. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus taught me his Word by having me live it. Jesus has given me the grace to live his Word as he obeyed his Father.[/SIZE]
Do you have a bank account ? ... I'm sure you do ... so you're in sin.
[SIZE=16pt]I never opened a savings account. I never put any money away for another day. [/SIZE]
Do you hate your mother and father ? ... if you do then you're in sin.
[SIZE=16pt]Again Jesus teaches his people to understand him even when he uses hyperbole. Besides my dad, mother have been dead for many years. [/SIZE]
Do you disobey the civil laws of your country ? ... if you do then you're in sin.
[SIZE=16pt]No I don’t disobey civil law. If the government tells me to do anything that contradicts God’s Word then I would disobey civil law.[/SIZE]
(Acts 5:29) “In reply Peter and the apostles said, ‘Obedience to God comes before obedience to men.”



Enquirer said:
I could go on and on ... I reckon I'm done with this topic.
You may believe you are finished with this topic, but you would be doing yourself a big favor in you asked Jesus/Holy Spirit to give you a better understanding of the written Word.
 

HearGod

New Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Wormwood said:
Johnlove,

I have yet to delete someone's comment or suspend an account for someone who disagreed with me (even when those disagreements have been heretical). So I would appreciate the courtesy of seeing my comment only as a means of helping to make this topic something engaging for more people...rather than everyone copying and pasting 8-10 verses with every post. Most people on this site are very familiar with the Bible. It is not that people do not know the Bible, but that their interpretations differ. So I would encourage you to help people understand why you interpret things the way you do rather than just spamming passages as your replies.

...
Clap Clap, very well said. And to add my 2 bits:

...their interpretations of God's word/s (or Man's ideas) differ.

Enquirer said:
... It was necessary to change foreign money into Jewish money to pay the Temple tax. Jesus sternly disrupted this business of banking in the court of the Gentiles (Matthew 21:12 ) because it went beyond the intended convenience and profaned the worship of God. ...

Taken from Studylight
I think I am with you Johnlove on this one, I don't buy this story [too].

Cheerio!

Julabee Jones said:
If the Christian Church of today is in a 'condemnable' state...how then can it be the church?

For the church is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without
blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.

If that is Jesus' church, His body; is what we call the church today, really the church? Is the church today (whichis overwhelmingly ignorant of the Word) 'washed by the water of the word'? Is the church today a 'glorious' church?not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing? Is it holy? Is it without blemish?

When we speak of the things of God, it is important to remember that things are in truth, only what God sees them
to be...
...
All thumbs up! Yes, only what/how God sees them/it! And what if (I repeat, what if) this word here is not even "church" to begin with? Say,

[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]For [/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px]the X-men[/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px] is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved [/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px]the X-men[/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px], and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself [/SIZE]a glorious X-men[SIZE=11.818181991577148px], not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.[/SIZE]

Or,

[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]For [/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px]the Eph assembly[/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px] is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved [/SIZE]the Eph assembly[SIZE=11.818181991577148px], and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself [/SIZE]a glorious Eph assembly[SIZE=11.818181991577148px], not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.[/SIZE]

Eph assembly (the assembly or gathering/synagogue at Ephesus as mentioned in the Book of Revelation).

Julabee Jones said:
If the Christian Church of today is in a 'condemnable' state...how then can it be the church?

For the church is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without
blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.

If that is Jesus' church, His body; is what we call the church today, really the church? Is the church today (whichis overwhelmingly ignorant of the Word) 'washed by the water of the word'? Is the church today a 'glorious' church?not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing? Is it holy? Is it without blemish?

When we speak of the things of God, it is important to remember that things are in truth, only what God sees them
to be...

Look at Revelation chapter one, for an important scriptural fact,

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." Rev 1:20.

This is the first revelation to be revealed, in a book chock full of revelations. And what is he here telling us?
Isn't it, that for the purposes of this exercise, this revelation or vision, the 'churches' are designated as
candlesticks? In other words, if a church is a candlestick, in God's eyes (and whose eyes are more important than
God's?), then we must allow it be so for us...and if it isn't a candlestick in God's eyes, then it MUST NOT BE a
church in our eyes.

Go then, to Revelation 2:4-5.

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

To the Church of Ephesus, God reveals dissatisfaction. He is not pleased that the church has left its first love.
And who would that first love be? Wouldn't it be Jesus Christ?

How many churches do you suppose there are, who are anything but in love with Jesus? Churches today are in love
with programs, buildings, ministries, money...all the trappings of the modern church that simply are NOT tantamountto loving Jesus Christ. How many churches of today are totally led by the Holy Spirit? Not many, right? In fact,
just about exactly the number that have either a printed bulletin, or a traditional order of service set in the
stone of tradition (so that the Holy Spirit is totally 'quenched')...How many on the other hand, are led by
committees, by the 'board', and, God forbid, by voting?

So Jesus tells them (and thousands upon thousands of churches today) to repent, and to do the first works. The
first works are loving Jesus, and doing all that you do out of that love. It is enjoying the first fire of romance in a godly way, it is love that looks not at yourself, but to the world God loved enough to send His only begotten Son to save...

And when we fail to do that? What does Jesus say He will do? It's really simple...

He will REMOVE YOUR CANDLESTICK from its place, and from the midst.

If then, as we're told, the word CANDLESTICK designates what is the church, in God's eyes...what then are we when
God removes the candlestick from the midst, and the designation of 'candlestick' from the church?

It's no longer a church...IN GOD'S EYES. It may meet in the most beautiful cathedral ever built. It may minister tothe roughest of the rough, the sinning-est sinners on earth. But if in God's eyes, it doesn't rate a candlestick,
if it doesn't come up to the definition of "Church", it's all wasted.

So then, how can we tell what is a church, and what is not a church? They all look very much the same. They all
claim to make the same claim. They all are, in their own eyes, the Church.

So how do we know if they are the church in God's eyes?

I believe we can know by the simple expedient of setting the so called 'church', any church, yours, mine, his and
hers, alongside the plumbline of God's Word. If it is
God who determines if a church is really a church...then don't we find out the truth of the entire matter by
seeking Him in His Word? Where HE will tell us what is a church, and what is not a church.

Think about it. Can you conceive in your mind and spirit, that what you attend, what you support, what you think isthe church...may not be a church at all, may in fact, be just a mutual admiration society PLAYING church? And
you're helping to pay for it, now...and might just end up paying for it eternally...

For if it isn't a church in God's eyes, what possible right have you got to believe that you're hearing the truth
there? And it is truth alone, in the person of Jesus Christ, that will take you to heaven.

God bless you!

I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,

Julabee Jones
And for those who disagree with Julabee Jones, let us try to reason.

[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]For *[/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px]the church[/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px] is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved **[/SIZE]the church[SIZE=11.818181991577148px], and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he [/SIZE]might present[SIZE=11.818181991577148px] it to himself [/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px]a glorious church[/SIZE][SIZE=11.818181991577148px], not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.[/SIZE]

might present = Subjunctive = it is subjective (there was no guarantee that this church will/would become glorious)

*the church = [SIZE=11.818181991577148px]**[/SIZE]the church = a [glorious] church = One church (say, the Eph X-men)

1Unto the angel of the X-men of Ephesus write;...
8And unto the angel of the X-men in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the church (synagogue is a feminine noun, which literally means: a gathering.. E.g. churches or assemblies collectively) of Satan...
12And to the angel of the X-men in Pergamos write;...
18And unto the angel of the X-men in Thyatira write;...
1And unto the angel of the X-men in Sardis write;...
7And to the angel of the X-men in Philadelphia write;...
14And unto the angel of the X-men of the Laodiceans write;...
Rev 2:1 through 3:22 (KJV - with emphasis mine)

them which say they are Jews, and are not
Who are them? Fake Jews? Some [non-KJVO] ANGLO-Saxon Englishmen or [SIZE=18.18181800842285px]CHINAmen or AshkeNAZI Jews of a certain Jewish synagogue (say, descendants of those mind-blogging Jews who became Jews because of their fear of the Jews; Esther 8:16-17)? (Just for laughs! No offense intended!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.18181800842285px]Cheerio! [/SIZE]

HearGod said:
Clap Clap, very well said. And to add my 2 bits:

...their interpretations of God's word/s (or Man's ideas) differ.


I think I am with you Johnlove on this one, I don't buy this story [too].

Cheerio!


All thumbs up! Yes, only what/how God sees them/it! And what if (I repeat, what if) this word here is not even "church" to begin with? Say,

For the X-men is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved the X-men, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious X-men, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without
blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.

Or,

For the Eph assembly is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved the Eph assembly, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious Eph assembly, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without
blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.

Eph assembly (the assembly or gathering/synagogue at Ephesus as mentioned in the Book of Revelation).


And for those who disagree with Julabee Jones, let us try to reason.

For *the church is the body of Christ, according to Paul, "... even as Christ also loved **the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without
blemish." Eph 5:25b-27.

might present = Subjunctive = it is subjective (there was no guarantee that this church will/would become glorious)

*the church = **the church = a [glorious] church = One church (say, the Eph X-men)

1Unto the angel of the X-men of Ephesus write;...
8And unto the angel of the X-men in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the church (synagogue is a feminine noun, which literally means: a gathering.. E.g. churches or assemblies collectively) of Satan...
12And to the angel of the X-men in Pergamos write;...
18And unto the angel of the X-men in Thyatira write;...
1And unto the angel of the X-men in Sardis write;...
7And to the angel of the X-men in Philadelphia write;...
14And unto the angel of the X-men of the Laodiceans write;...
Rev 2:1 through 3:22 (KJV - with emphasis mine)

them which say they are Jews, and are not
Who are them? Fake Jews? Some [non-KJVO] ANGLO-Saxon Englishmen or [SIZE=18.18181800842285px]CHINAmen or AshkeNAZI Jews of a certain Jewish "synagogue" (say, descendants of those mind-blogging Jews who became Jews because of their fear of the Jews; Esther 8:16-17)? (Just for laughs! No offense intended!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18.18181800842285px]Cheerio! [/SIZE]
 

sojourner4Christ

sojourning non-citizen
May 23, 2014
388
8
18
Johnlove, my initial suggestion would be for you to focus on one issue at a time, thoroughly fleshing out the details with scripture, until it be resolved. Do not be distracted by the constant lure of rabbit trails.

In perusing this thread, two issues that jumped to the forefront for me are pacifism and debt.

While I believe scripture is clear that self-defense is biblical, the more pressing of the two issues would be debt.

The Gospel does not consist of one's occupation, views on justice of the oppressed in relation to force, or whether or not people take out a home loan.
Yet the Holy Bible does give crystal clear instruction concerning those issues.

For example, the idea of paying interest on anything that is loaned to you is foreign to the Word of God, because interest (usury) is condemned by God (Exodus 22:25-27, Leviticus 25:36-37; 23:19-20, Nehemiah 5:7,10-11, Psalms 15:5, Proverbs 28:8, Isaiah 24:1-3, Ezekiel 18:8,13; 22:12-13). So, when one pays those usury fees (interest), they are partaking of the sin of the merchant who engages in the usury. Simply and directly put:

Deuteronomy 15:6; 28:12, “Thou shalt not borrow.”

Next time you talk to Jesus, ask him if it is okay that you pronounce his condemnation on people who love him and live for him but disagree with you on whether or not its okay to get a loan in order to put a roof over their children's heads.
This is fair counsel, indeed, even as we each possess differing levels of spiritual maturity.

Yet it is an unfortunate fact that many who would offer that very counsel are, themselves, in debt. Their anger at their self-wrought predicament often flairs, and their justifications often proffered, when the subject of debt is raised. Bottom line: Men in bondage make poor witnesses.

It is important that we should remain separate from the unclean things of the commercial world. Our Father has made it clear that we cannot serve both him and mammon (wealth, riches, money, etc.). When men are pursuing riches, or "a living," they will often times do whatever it takes to get what they "want." It is that pursuit that we must avoid.

Merchants are condemned in scripture, because their mode of commerce not only involves thievery and war, but it also creates a form of slavery for those who are "captured" by it. Governments regulate all business and corporations, because commerce is thievery. Governments regulate the commerce of the merchants, as well as their "customers," in an attempt to keep the thievery and slavery at a manageable level. That is why those who engage in such activity are "presumed" guilty until proven innocent, because they are guilty according to God's Law.

Capitalism is a license to steal; the government simply regulates who steals and how much. Most of the governmental codes, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes, public policies, etc., are designed to regulate those partaking of the ways of the lex mercatoria, the Law Merchant (google it). That law, as distinguished from God's Law, is a private law.

The law recognizes the fact that men will naturally overstate the value and qualities of the articles that they have to sell. Kimball v. Bangs, 141 Mass. 323, Morton. C.J. ; Mooney v. Miller, 102 id. 220; Gordon v. Butler, 105 U.S. 557, Southern Development Co. v. Silva, 125 id. 256.

The world continually encourages everyone to join with and obey the Law Merchant. It continually offers the benefits of the world. When you look to man for your benefits, a duty attaches to you and man becomes your lord, lording over you. The "bait and switch" of the crafty serpent is this: the resulting duty greatly outweighs the benefit received! They can only give you a portion of that which they take from you to begin with! So you end up with less, and you give them more power because they're keeping a large percentage of it. And remember, the beast has no power except that which it is given by its obedient servants.

However, by not partaking of the commercial benefits that the world offers, we are not submitting ourselves to those particular laws governing commercial activity. Therefore, those laws do not apply to those who are not engaged in their mode of commercial activity.

To make a clarification, if God blesses us with riches that's one thing, but if we chase after riches that's another. Our life is not to revolve around gain, but around Christ. Why chase things that are temporal which will be lost anyway? We are to pursue a relationship with God, letting our soul be after him, and he will provide everything we need as we walk in his ways (Matthew 6:30, Luke 12:28, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 34:10).

...a loan in order to put a roof over their children's heads.
So what about that “home loan”? Again, the Holy Bible's instruction is clear on that issue.

What is the meaning and origin of the word mortgage? The term mortgage comes from mort and means "death" (as in mortuary or mortality), and gage means "pledge." Mort-gage means a "dead pledge." In Bouvier's Law Dictionary of 1856, Dead-Pledge is defined as "a mortgage of lands or goods." It's a pledge of death because it’s an engagement in debt, which is a neglect or violation of our duty; we're not supposed to engage in those things. This is why we're not to owe man anything:

Romans 13:8, "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:"

There is no love when one neglects or violates the Law of God. The definition from Bouvier's is a full disclosure that one is walking in bondage and death when engaged in mortgages and debt.

Nehemiah 5:3-5, "…We have mortgaged our lands, vineyards, and houses…We have borrowed money for the king's tribute, and that upon our lands and vineyards…and, lo, we bring into bondage our sons and our daughters to be servants, and some of our daughters are brought unto bondage already: neither is it in our power to redeem them; for other men have our lands and vineyards."

Debt brings into captivity he who engages in it.

Proverbs 22:7, "The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender."

2 Kings 4:1, "Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the LORD: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen."

When one enters into debt, who is he a servant to? He is a servant to the merchants of the earth, because their law, the Law Merchant, has full jurisdiction over debt within their system. Between brothers there's not really any debt, because we give and expect nothing in return, for "it is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). But when we're dealing with the natural man and we go in debt with the world, we're entering into a private law, which is known as the lex mercatoria (Law Merchant) (google it).

Some feel justified in taking out a mortgage if they use “their” house to exercise God's will. They believe, if they don’t have a house, then they will not be able to continue doing that.

First of all, God does not require us to sin in one of his laws (entering into a covenant with the heathen, and being unequally yoked with them) in order to exercise his will. If it's his will we do something, and we feel we must break one of his laws in order to do his will, then we better ask ourselves, "Is it really his will I am doing, or my own?"

Secondly, let me ask you a question. Can mere man thwart God's will? Of course not. If he can, that would mean man is sovereign over God, and God is helpless. So, knowing man cannot thwart God's will, one should not worry that man will prevent you from exercising God's will! If you fear that you won't be able to continue doing God's will without a house, then you are saying man is more powerful than God! If man does prevent you from doing what you thought was God's will, then maybe that's God's way of telling you it was not his will in the first place, and he may be directing you to a different calling.

Scripture does tell us that we will be persecuted for standing in the Truth (Matthew 5:10-12; 10:22; 24:9, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:17, John 15:20). We will be persecuted, but it's for his purposes. Besides, who is the One who has provided you with that house? Yourself or God? If you are living in the Truth, you know that God has. Therefore, what makes you think that he will not provide another house for you? It comes down to faith, or a lack of faith.

Remember what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:40, "And if any man (i.e. cops, attorneys, etc.) will sue thee at the law (i.e. arrested and brought before the judge for placing God's Will above man's will), and take away thy coat (i.e. house, car, land), let him have thy cloke also."

Why does Jesus tell us to let our possessions go? Because those who want "their" things back would be coveting! And coveting may prevent one from having eternal life! Look at this question that was asked to Jesus by a wealthy man:

Matthew 19:16, "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

Then Jesus repeated some of God's Commandments. The man said he had kept all of them. Then Jesus told the man he must be willing to give up his possessions also (verse 21).

Matthew 19:22, "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

That man refused to let go of his possessions, and he left Jesus! He could not be part of the Kingdom if he was not willing to let go of his possessions! Why? Because Christ's kingdom is spiritual, not physical. God will supply our physical needs (Matthew 6:31-33, Luke 12:22-31, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 34:10). That man had no faith that God would supply his needs, but he wanted to put that faith in his current possessions...just in case God didn't keep his promise to supply him with his needs. After all, he may have been thinking to himself, "Why put faith in God to supply my needs when I already have the things I need? Why should I risk losing them? I like my physical possessions." But when the rich man left, Jesus told his audience:

Matthew 19:23-24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Let this be a warning to those who are not willing to part with their possessions. For those who would rather covet "their" house and keep it, rather than risk losing it for righteousness sake, then you may want to think about this: Caesar and his swarms of officers can take "your" house away from you for any reason they want. Would you rather have protection from Caesar (which means you must forsake the Father), or would you rather have protection from Almighty God (by using him as a shield and obeying his law)? He is truly a more powerful shield than Caesar and his codes, rules, and regulations.

If you do lose your possessions because of righteousness sake, we are not to have any animosity towards those who steal from us, but we are to forgive them:

Mark 11:26, "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

This is where the Peace of Christ comes in. No matter what man does to us, we will always have the assurance that God will take care of our needs.

... Banking was a common practice in Israel, when the Jews from foreign countries came to Jerusalem they had to weigh
their currency in exchange for the currency used in the Temple ... and it was here where they took liberty and extracted more than
they should have.

Jesus never condemned the practice of money changing or interest.

I quote ...[from Studylight]

Call it a parable if you want to but to the common Jew of the day and to Jesus this was normal practice and acceptable.
Some posters in this thread would attempt to convince us with commentaries of men that Jesus approved of “banking.” As we have seen, that is absolutely incorrect.

People ask, “Well, what can we do about it?” The only answer is to stop partaking of it. Follow the ways of the Lord in your dealings with others. Remember, the Lord provides for all of our needs. We're not to seek those things of the world. And if your heart is truly after him, you will abandon those things and find, through him, his alternatives and his ways. It all comes down to Faith. You go to his word and you go to prayer and he will show you the way. He always does. And that walk of Faith results in knowing, and then seeing, that he will provide for you when you walk in his ways.

Joshua 24:15, "...choose you this day whom ye will serve;"

When you enter into the debt system that's "set up" today, you're entering into that private law of those private merchants, and that's who you become a servant to. You're serving sin, because our Lord rejected all those things of the Roman Empire. As he rejected those things, we must also.

Now, words are easy to say, but doing it is always the difficult part. People are in debt and they don't know how to get out of it, or they don't think they can survive in the world without going into debt, especially in the area of buying a house and the mortgage system. And, along with that, everyone believes they must have just as good of a house as everyone else. So, it has a lot with being spoiled and going for our wants instead of our needs.

When you walk with the Lord, he provides all of our needs (Matthew 6:26-33; Luke 12:28-31, Philippians 4:19, Psalm 34:10). It's our wants that get us into debt. We have to put all those wants behind us and stop looking to the things of the flesh to satisfy us, because there is no satisfaction there.

Psalms 23:1, "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."

We are shown at 1 Samuel 22:1-2 that those who were "in distress, and every one that was in debt, and every one that was discontented," abandoned all of those things and they went to a man of the Lord (David) and had him rule over them. They abandoned that yoke and heavy burden of bondage of the ways of the heathen, and exchanged it for a yoke that is easy and a burden that is light (Matthew 11:30). And we must do the same thing; we must put all those things behind us and follow Christ Jesus only, and not the ways of the world. Without bringing you into bondage through debt, the beast has no power.

If we read the history of God's people, we find that sin always leads to slavery. And that's why we must follow his words and his commandments.

Leviticus 25:23, "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me."

I will finish with a posting of the following passages, which will reveal how evil the pursuit of money, wealth, riches, credit, interest, borrowing, and benefits really are.

Job 21:13, "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave."

Job 27:19-23, "The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not. Terrors take hold on him as waters, a tempest stealeth him away in the night. The east wind carrieth him away, and he departeth: and as a storm hurleth him out of his place. For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand. Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place."

Job 31:25,28, "If I rejoiced because my wealth was great, and because mine hand had gotten much; This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above."

Psalms 49:6-7, "They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:"

Psalms 52:5-7, "God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah. The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him: Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness."

Psalms 62:10, "Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them."

Psalms 73:12, "Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches."

Proverbs 1:18-19, "And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives. So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof."

Proverbs 3:13-14, "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold."

Proverbs 11:4, "Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death."

Proverbs 11:28, "He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch."

Proverbs 13:7, "There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches."

Proverbs 14:20-21, "The poor is hated even of his own neighbour: but the rich hath many friends. He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he."

Proverbs 15:6, "In the house of the righteous is much treasure: but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble."

Proverbs 15:16, "Better is little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble therewith."

Proverbs 15:27, "He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live."

Proverbs 16:8, "Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right."

Proverbs 18:11, "The rich man's wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit."

Proverbs 18:23, "The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly."

Proverbs 19:4, "Wealth maketh many friends; but the poor is separated from his neighbour."

Proverbs 21:6, "The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death."

Proverbs 22:1, "A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold."

Proverbs 22:7, "The rich ruleth over the poor,"

Proverbs 22:16, "He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want."

Proverbs 23:4, "Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom."

Proverbs 28:6, "Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich."

Proverbs 28:11, "The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out."

Proverbs 28:20, "A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent."

Proverbs 28:22, "He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him."

Ecclesiastes 1:3, "What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?"

Ecclesiastes 2:11, "Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 3:9, "What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?"

Ecclesiastes 5:16, "...and what profit hath he that hath laboured for the wind?"

Ecclesiastes 7:12, "For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it."

Isaiah 55:1-2, "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness."

Isaiah 56:11, "Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter."

Jeremiah 5:26-27, "For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich."

Jeremiah 17:11, "As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool."

Jeremiah 48:7, "For because thou hast trusted in thy works and in thy treasures, thou shalt also be taken:"

Jeremiah 49:4, "… for Ai is spoiled:...O backsliding daughter…that trusted in her treasures,"

Jeremiah 50:37, "...a sword is upon her treasures; and they shall be robbed."

Jeremiah 51:13, "O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness."

Ezekiel 28:4-10, "… thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: By thy…traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;…I will bring strangers upon thee…and they shall draw their swords against the…They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die… Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. Thou shalt die…by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD."

Hosea 13:15, "...he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels."

Micah 3:11, "The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us."

Micah 6:12, "For the rich men thereof are full of violence, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth."

Matthew 6:19-21, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Matthew 6:24, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (riches)."

Matthew 19:21, "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Matthew 19:23-24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Mark 4:19, "And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful."

Mark 6:8, "And [Jesus] commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:" (Luke 9:3).

Mark 8:36-37, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Mark 10:21, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."

Mark 10:23-25, "And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!…how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Mark 14:10-11, "And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him [Jesus] unto them. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him [Jesus]."

Luke 6:24, "But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation."

Luke 12:15, "And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."

Luke 12:20-21, "But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

Luke 12:33, "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth."

Luke 18:22-23, "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich."

1 Corinthians 10:24,33, "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."

Philippians 1:21, "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

Philippians 3:7, "But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ."

1 Timothy 3:2-3, "A bishop then must be blameless…not greedy of filthy lucre."

1 Timothy 3:8, "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;"

1 Timothy 6:5-7,9-10, "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

1 Timothy 6:17, "Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;"

Titus 1:7, "For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;"

James 1:10-11, "But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways."

James 2:6-7, "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?"

James 5:1-2, "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you."

1 Peter 5:2, "Feed the flock of God which is among you…not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;"
Revelation 3:17, "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

Revelation 6:15-17, "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
 

Johnlove

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[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told us not to have possessions, we are not to have saving accounts scripture tells us that is true.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told us not to give an evil person any resistance. He told us to love our enemies. He did not give us permission to protect ourselves. A Christian a called to trust God, not man’s armies, of police force.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Luke 12:33) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Luke 14:33) “[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:39) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](1 John 2:6) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 6:19) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Yes people who believe they have a right to defend oneself have to ignore what Jesus said. A Christian does as Jesus tells him or her.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]People who believe they have a right to possessions, savings account, to own a house, need to ignore what Jesus said. A Christian does as Jesus tells him or her.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]People believe a Christian does not need to live a sinless life, and the written Word tells them that is not true. Again a Christian does as Jesus tells him or her.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” [/SIZE]