Johnlove, my initial suggestion would be for you to focus on one issue at a time, thoroughly fleshing out the details with scripture, until it be resolved. Do not be distracted by the constant lure of rabbit trails.
In perusing this thread, two issues that jumped to the forefront for me are pacifism and debt.
While I believe scripture is clear that self-defense is biblical, the more pressing of the two issues would be debt.
Yet the Holy Bible does give crystal clear instruction concerning those issues.
For example, the idea of paying interest on anything that is loaned to you is foreign to the Word of God, because interest (usury) is condemned by God (Exodus 22:25-27, Leviticus 25:36-37; 23:19-20, Nehemiah 5:7,10-11, Psalms 15:5, Proverbs 28:8, Isaiah 24:1-3, Ezekiel 18:8,13; 22:12-13). So, when one pays those usury fees (interest), they are partaking of the sin of the merchant who engages in the usury. Simply and directly put:
Deuteronomy 15:6; 28:12, “Thou shalt not borrow.”
This is fair counsel, indeed, even as we each possess differing levels of spiritual maturity.
Yet it is an unfortunate fact that many who would offer that very counsel are, themselves, in debt. Their anger at their self-wrought predicament often flairs, and their justifications often proffered, when the subject of debt is raised. Bottom line: Men in bondage make poor witnesses.
It is important that we should remain separate from the unclean things of the commercial world. Our Father has made it clear that we cannot serve both him and mammon (wealth, riches, money, etc.). When men are pursuing riches, or "a living," they will often times do whatever it takes to get what they "want." It is that pursuit that we must avoid.
Merchants are condemned in scripture, because their mode of commerce not only involves thievery and war, but it also creates a form of slavery for those who are "captured" by it. Governments regulate all business and corporations, because commerce is thievery. Governments regulate the commerce of the merchants, as well as their "customers," in an attempt to keep the thievery and slavery at a manageable level. That is why those who engage in such activity are "presumed" guilty until proven innocent, because they are guilty according to God's Law.
Capitalism is a license to steal; the government simply regulates who steals and how much. Most of the governmental codes, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes, public policies, etc., are designed to regulate those partaking of the ways of the lex mercatoria, the Law Merchant (google it). That law, as distinguished from God's Law, is a private law.
The law recognizes the fact that men will naturally overstate the value and qualities of the articles that they have to sell. Kimball v. Bangs, 141 Mass. 323, Morton. C.J. ; Mooney v. Miller, 102 id. 220; Gordon v. Butler, 105 U.S. 557, Southern Development Co. v. Silva, 125 id. 256.
The world continually encourages everyone to join with and obey the Law Merchant. It continually offers the benefits of the world. When you look to man for your benefits, a duty attaches to you and man becomes your lord, lording over you. The "bait and switch" of the crafty serpent is this: the resulting duty greatly outweighs the benefit received! They can only give you a portion of that which they take from you to begin with! So you end up with less, and you give them more power because they're keeping a large percentage of it. And remember, the beast has no power except that which it is given by its obedient servants.
However, by not partaking of the commercial benefits that the world offers, we are not submitting ourselves to those particular laws governing commercial activity. Therefore, those laws do not apply to those who are not engaged in their mode of commercial activity.
To make a clarification, if God blesses us with riches that's one thing, but if we chase after riches that's another. Our life is not to revolve around gain, but around Christ. Why chase things that are temporal which will be lost anyway? We are to pursue a relationship with God, letting our soul be after him, and he will provide everything we need as we walk in his ways (Matthew 6:30, Luke 12:28, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 34:10).
So what about that “home loan”? Again, the Holy Bible's instruction is clear on that issue.
What is the meaning and origin of the word mortgage? The term mortgage comes from mort and means "death" (as in mortuary or mortality), and gage means "pledge." Mort-gage means a "dead pledge." In Bouvier's Law Dictionary of 1856, Dead-Pledge is defined as "a mortgage of lands or goods." It's a pledge of death because it’s an engagement in debt, which is a neglect or violation of our duty; we're not supposed to engage in those things. This is why we're not to owe man anything:
Romans 13:8, "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:"
There is no love when one neglects or violates the Law of God. The definition from Bouvier's is a full disclosure that one is walking in bondage and death when engaged in mortgages and debt.
Nehemiah 5:3-5, "…We have mortgaged our lands, vineyards, and houses…We have borrowed money for the king's tribute, and that upon our lands and vineyards…and, lo, we bring into bondage our sons and our daughters to be servants, and some of our daughters are brought unto bondage already: neither is it in our power to redeem them; for other men have our lands and vineyards."
Debt brings into captivity he who engages in it.
Proverbs 22:7, "The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender."
2 Kings 4:1, "Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the LORD: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen."
When one enters into debt, who is he a servant to? He is a servant to the merchants of the earth, because their law, the Law Merchant, has full jurisdiction over debt within their system. Between brothers there's not really any debt, because we give and expect nothing in return, for "it is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:35). But when we're dealing with the natural man and we go in debt with the world, we're entering into a private law, which is known as the lex mercatoria (Law Merchant) (google it).
Some feel justified in taking out a mortgage if they use “their” house to exercise God's will. They believe, if they don’t have a house, then they will not be able to continue doing that.
First of all, God does not require us to sin in one of his laws (entering into a covenant with the heathen, and being unequally yoked with them) in order to exercise his will. If it's his will we do something, and we feel we must break one of his laws in order to do his will, then we better ask ourselves, "Is it really his will I am doing, or my own?"
Secondly, let me ask you a question. Can mere man thwart God's will? Of course not. If he can, that would mean man is sovereign over God, and God is helpless. So, knowing man cannot thwart God's will, one should not worry that man will prevent you from exercising God's will! If you fear that you won't be able to continue doing God's will without a house, then you are saying man is more powerful than God! If man does prevent you from doing what you thought was God's will, then maybe that's God's way of telling you it was not his will in the first place, and he may be directing you to a different calling.
Scripture does tell us that we will be persecuted for standing in the Truth (Matthew 5:10-12; 10:22; 24:9, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:17, John 15:20). We will be persecuted, but it's for his purposes. Besides, who is the One who has provided you with that house? Yourself or God? If you are living in the Truth, you know that God has. Therefore, what makes you think that he will not provide another house for you? It comes down to faith, or a lack of faith.
Remember what Jesus said:
Matthew 5:40, "And if any man (i.e. cops, attorneys, etc.) will sue thee at the law (i.e. arrested and brought before the judge for placing God's Will above man's will), and take away thy coat (i.e. house, car, land), let him have thy cloke also."
Why does Jesus tell us to let our possessions go? Because those who want "their" things back would be coveting! And coveting may prevent one from having eternal life! Look at this question that was asked to Jesus by a wealthy man:
Matthew 19:16, "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
Then Jesus repeated some of God's Commandments. The man said he had kept all of them. Then Jesus told the man he must be willing to give up his possessions also (verse 21).
Matthew 19:22, "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."
That man refused to let go of his possessions, and he left Jesus! He could not be part of the Kingdom if he was not willing to let go of his possessions! Why? Because Christ's kingdom is spiritual, not physical. God will supply our physical needs (Matthew 6:31-33, Luke 12:22-31, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 34:10). That man had no faith that God would supply his needs, but he wanted to put that faith in his current possessions...just in case God didn't keep his promise to supply him with his needs. After all, he may have been thinking to himself, "Why put faith in God to supply my needs when I already have the things I need? Why should I risk losing them? I like my physical possessions." But when the rich man left, Jesus told his audience:
Matthew 19:23-24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Let this be a warning to those who are not willing to part with their possessions. For those who would rather covet "their" house and keep it, rather than risk losing it for righteousness sake, then you may want to think about this: Caesar and his swarms of officers can take "your" house away from you for any reason they want. Would you rather have protection from Caesar (which means you must forsake the Father), or would you rather have protection from Almighty God (by using him as a shield and obeying his law)? He is truly a more powerful shield than Caesar and his codes, rules, and regulations.
If you do lose your possessions because of righteousness sake, we are not to have any animosity towards those who steal from us, but we are to forgive them:
Mark 11:26, "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
This is where the Peace of Christ comes in. No matter what man does to us, we will always have the assurance that God will take care of our needs.
Some posters in this thread would attempt to convince us with commentaries of men that Jesus approved of “banking.” As we have seen, that is absolutely incorrect.
People ask, “Well, what can we do about it?” The only answer is to stop partaking of it. Follow the ways of the Lord in your dealings with others. Remember, the Lord provides for all of our needs. We're not to seek those things of the world. And if your heart is truly after him, you will abandon those things and find, through him, his alternatives and his ways. It all comes down to Faith. You go to his word and you go to prayer and he will show you the way. He always does. And that walk of Faith results in knowing, and then seeing, that he will provide for you when you walk in his ways.
Joshua 24:15, "...choose you this day whom ye will serve;"
When you enter into the debt system that's "set up" today, you're entering into that private law of those private merchants, and that's who you become a servant to. You're serving sin, because our Lord rejected all those things of the Roman Empire. As he rejected those things, we must also.
Now, words are easy to say, but doing it is always the difficult part. People are in debt and they don't know how to get out of it, or they don't think they can survive in the world without going into debt, especially in the area of buying a house and the mortgage system. And, along with that, everyone believes they must have just as good of a house as everyone else. So, it has a lot with being spoiled and going for our wants instead of our needs.
When you walk with the Lord, he provides all of our needs (Matthew 6:26-33; Luke 12:28-31, Philippians 4:19, Psalm 34:10). It's our wants that get us into debt. We have to put all those wants behind us and stop looking to the things of the flesh to satisfy us, because there is no satisfaction there.
Psalms 23:1, "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."
We are shown at 1 Samuel 22:1-2 that those who were "in distress, and every one that was in debt, and every one that was discontented," abandoned all of those things and they went to a man of the Lord (David) and had him rule over them. They abandoned that yoke and heavy burden of bondage of the ways of the heathen, and exchanged it for a yoke that is easy and a burden that is light (Matthew 11:30). And we must do the same thing; we must put all those things behind us and follow Christ Jesus only, and not the ways of the world. Without bringing you into bondage through debt, the beast has no power.
If we read the history of God's people, we find that sin always leads to slavery. And that's why we must follow his words and his commandments.
Leviticus 25:23, "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me."
I will finish with a posting of the following passages, which will reveal how evil the pursuit of money, wealth, riches, credit, interest, borrowing, and benefits really are.
Job 21:13, "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave."
Job 27:19-23, "The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not. Terrors take hold on him as waters, a tempest stealeth him away in the night. The east wind carrieth him away, and he departeth: and as a storm hurleth him out of his place. For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand. Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place."
Job 31:25,28, "If I rejoiced because my wealth was great, and because mine hand had gotten much; This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above."
Psalms 49:6-7, "They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:"
Psalms 52:5-7, "God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah. The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him: Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness."
Psalms 62:10, "Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them."
Psalms 73:12, "Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches."
Proverbs 1:18-19, "And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives. So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof."
Proverbs 3:13-14, "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold."
Proverbs 11:4, "Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death."
Proverbs 11:28, "He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch."
Proverbs 13:7, "There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches."
Proverbs 14:20-21, "The poor is hated even of his own neighbour: but the rich hath many friends. He that despiseth his neighbour sinneth: but he that hath mercy on the poor, happy is he."
Proverbs 15:6, "In the house of the righteous is much treasure: but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble."
Proverbs 15:16, "Better is little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble therewith."
Proverbs 15:27, "He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live."
Proverbs 16:8, "Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right."
Proverbs 18:11, "The rich man's wealth is his strong city, and as an high wall in his own conceit."
Proverbs 18:23, "The poor useth intreaties; but the rich answereth roughly."
Proverbs 19:4, "Wealth maketh many friends; but the poor is separated from his neighbour."
Proverbs 21:6, "The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death."
Proverbs 22:1, "A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold."
Proverbs 22:7, "The rich ruleth over the poor,"
Proverbs 22:16, "He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want."
Proverbs 23:4, "Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom."
Proverbs 28:6, "Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich."
Proverbs 28:11, "The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out."
Proverbs 28:20, "A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent."
Proverbs 28:22, "He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him."
Ecclesiastes 1:3, "What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?"
Ecclesiastes 2:11, "Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 3:9, "What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?"
Ecclesiastes 5:16, "...and what profit hath he that hath laboured for the wind?"
Ecclesiastes 7:12, "For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it."
Isaiah 55:1-2, "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness."
Isaiah 56:11, "Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter."
Jeremiah 5:26-27, "For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich."
Jeremiah 17:11, "As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool."
Jeremiah 48:7, "For because thou hast trusted in thy works and in thy treasures, thou shalt also be taken:"
Jeremiah 49:4, "… for Ai is spoiled:...O backsliding daughter…that trusted in her treasures,"
Jeremiah 50:37, "...a sword is upon her treasures; and they shall be robbed."
Jeremiah 51:13, "O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness."
Ezekiel 28:4-10, "… thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: By thy…traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;…I will bring strangers upon thee…and they shall draw their swords against the…They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die… Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. Thou shalt die…by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD."
Hosea 13:15, "...he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels."
Micah 3:11, "The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us."
Micah 6:12, "For the rich men thereof are full of violence, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth."
Matthew 6:19-21, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
Matthew 6:24, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (riches)."
Matthew 19:21, "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
Matthew 19:23-24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Mark 4:19, "And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful."
Mark 6:8, "And [Jesus] commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:" (Luke 9:3).
Mark 8:36-37, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
Mark 10:21, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."
Mark 10:23-25, "And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!…how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Mark 14:10-11, "And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him [Jesus] unto them. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him [Jesus]."
Luke 6:24, "But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation."
Luke 12:15, "And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."
Luke 12:20-21, "But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
Luke 12:33, "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth."
Luke 18:22-23, "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich."
1 Corinthians 10:24,33, "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth. Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."
Philippians 1:21, "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."
Philippians 3:7, "But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ."
1 Timothy 3:2-3, "A bishop then must be blameless…not greedy of filthy lucre."
1 Timothy 3:8, "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;"
1 Timothy 6:5-7,9-10, "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."
1 Timothy 6:17, "Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;"
Titus 1:7, "For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;"
James 1:10-11, "But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways."
James 2:6-7, "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?"
James 5:1-2, "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you."
1 Peter 5:2, "Feed the flock of God which is among you…not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;"
Revelation 3:17, "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"
Revelation 6:15-17, "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
