The Christian Church today is to be condemned/cursed.

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justaname

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Here is an interesting passage...

Luke 22:35-36
35Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Here the disciples are told to go and buy a sword or as I interpret it everyone should posses their own sword...interesting. A sword is not a passive tool. Also Jesus in this one passage speaks of having stewardship over and obtaining possessions...the entire OP is debunked in my opinion.

I see this OP as one who feels they have direct revelation from the Christ and everyone else is wrong...very cultic and dangerous. Anyone can say Jesus told me this or that personally...

Also I have a response at post #8 that seemed to receive no attention...
 

Johnlove

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justaname said:
Here is an interesting passage...

Luke 22:35-36
35Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
36He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Here the disciples are told to go and buy a sword or as I interpret it everyone should posses their own sword...interesting. A sword is not a passive tool. Also Jesus in this one passage speaks of having stewardship over and obtaining possessions...the entire OP is debunked in my opinion.

I see this OP as one who feels they have direct revelation from the Christ and everyone else is wrong...very cultic and dangerous. Anyone can say Jesus told me this or that personally...

Also I have a response at post #8 that seemed to receive no attention...
[SIZE=16pt]Do you believe then that Jesus meant for the apostles to use swords to kill people? Swords to defend themselves? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Do you believe two [/SIZE]swords would be enough to defend all of them?

[SIZE=16pt]Do you believe Jesus was saying what he preached about loving his or her enemies was not any longer true?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The following is what the translators of the Jerusalem bible thought Jesus was telling the disciples. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]"The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission is a hostile world. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The apostles have taken the words of Jesus two literally and he closes the conversation abruptly."[/SIZE]
 

Wormwood

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You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
I agree with this verse. I do not agree that this verse applies to governments or police forces. As I have already shown, Paul points to government as wielding the sword and Jesus nor John the Baptist ever commanded a soldier to give up their occupation. I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. Jesus was a Jew who knew and taught the heart of God displayed in the Law. The Law of Moses taught that it was RIGHT for authorities to stop and punish wickedness, but WRONG for individuals to engage in personal vengeance (Lev. 19:18). Jesus and the Apostles taught that we should not repay evil with evil. However, this is very different from bringing justice to the wicked or for governments and police forces to protect the helpless. This is right and good and there is NO VERSE that teaches that a Christian cannot be a part of a system or police force that provides such protection and justice to the oppressed and helpless.

So, if someone attacks me for being a Christian, then I would not resist or fight back. I would strive to, like Jesus, endure hardship for righteousness sake. However, this is very different from seeing a small child being abused by an adult and walking away, allowing the oppression to continue. Or, to see a woman being beat with a baseball bat on a street corner and expect Christians to walk by with their hands in their pockets. THAT is evil...and is not what Jesus is talking about in this verse. It is right to come to the aid of the helpless. There is nothing wrong with the verse you are citing, its is your application that is wrong.

Anyway, I am done with this. You are dancing around the issues. We are not saved by what we do or do not do. We are saved by grace through faith in the work of God in Jesus Christ. You want to make our salvation about pacifism, which is NOT related to the message of salvation that the early church taught. You are condemning people who love and trust the Lord because they disagree with you on a controversial issue. You are wrong to do this. If you have a conviction on the issue, fine. Just don't make it a matter of salvation for those who also read the Bible and see it teaching a different perspective on the matter.
 

Enquirer

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sojourner4Christ said:
In fact, Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial (Luke 23:2). Notice these were not false witnesses who accused Jesus of not paying taxes, because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59). Where did Jesus forbid to pay taxes to Caesar?
Not false witnesses, are you kidding ? ... they were the chief priest and his cohorts and just wanted Jesus dead ... they would have sold their grandmother
just to see Jesus crucified.
Of course they were lying ... Jesus said the opposite ... render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

"Misery loves company" ... hahahahaha, I find this so amusing, it's because "we" are right.

@ johnlove ... interesting that you ignored justaname's line ...

"Also Jesus in this one passage speaks of having stewardship over and obtaining possessions"

I wonder why ?
 

Johnlove

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Wormwood said:
I agree with this verse. I do not agree that this verse applies to governments or police forces. As I have already shown, Paul points to government as wielding the sword and Jesus nor John the Baptist ever commanded a soldier to give up their occupation. I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. Jesus was a Jew who knew and taught the heart of God displayed in the Law. The Law of Moses taught that it was RIGHT for authorities to stop and punish wickedness, but WRONG for individuals to engage in personal vengeance (Lev. 19:18). Jesus and the Apostles taught that we should not repay evil with evil. However, this is very different from bringing justice to the wicked or for governments and police forces to protect the helpless. This is right and good and there is NO VERSE that teaches that a Christian cannot be a part of a system or police force that provides such protection and justice to the oppressed and helpless.
[SIZE=16pt] Jesus came to complete the Law. [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:17)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]What God did in the Old Testament no longer applies to us.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus said: You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:39) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told us how it was before he came to complete the Law, and then he told us how he wanted it to be from then on.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Peter explained to us that one obeys God, and not the government. We first obey God. Government says kill, and God say not to kill we obey God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Acts 4:19-20)[/SIZE]

So, if someone attacks me for being a Christian, then I would not resist or fight back. I would strive to, like Jesus, endure hardship for righteousness sake. However, this is very different from seeing a small child being abused by an adult and walking away, allowing the oppression to continue. Or, to see a woman being beat with a baseball bat on a street corner and expect Christians to walk by with their hands in their pockets. THAT is evil...and is not what Jesus is talking about in this verse. It is right to come to the aid of the helpless. There is nothing wrong with the verse you are citing, its is your application that is wrong.

[SIZE=16pt]One is to obey, and trust God. Hypothetical situations are not relevant. One does not receive the grace to do God’s Word until the situation happens.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]If it is God’s will for one to die, be it a child or anyone it is not our job to interfere with God’s will.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I am eighty years old, and not once in all those years has anyone needed me to protect them from evil. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]If I see one who needs protection then prayer is what needs to be done for that person. I pray for God’s will to be done. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The world needs police, and an army to enforce its laws, because its people are not Christian and need laws. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Christian are not of the world, and are not to help the world force its laws.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul explains this in the following scripture. [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt](1 Timothy 1:8-11)[/SIZE]
Anyway, I am done with this. You are dancing around the issues. We are not saved by what we do or do not do. We are saved by grace through faith in the work of God in Jesus Christ. You want to make our salvation about pacifism, which is NOT related to the message of salvation that the early church taught. You are condemning people who love and trust the Lord because they disagree with you on a controversial issue. You are wrong to do this. If you have a conviction on the issue, fine. Just don't make it a matter of salvation for those who also read the Bible and see it teaching a different perspective on the matter.


[SIZE=16pt]Saved? Saved does not necessarily mean one will enter the kingdom of God. You will not be able to prove it means entering the kingdom of heaven by the written Word of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]A sinner will never enter God’s kingdom. Paul says that. (1 Corinthians 6:9-19)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus tells us who it is that will come with him to the kingdom of heaven in the following scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 7:21-23)[/SIZE]
 

justaname

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Do you believe then that Jesus meant for the apostles to use swords to kill people? Swords to defend themselves? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Do you believe two [/SIZE]swords would be enough to defend all of them?

[SIZE=16pt]Do you believe Jesus was saying what he preached about loving his or her enemies was not any longer true?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The following is what the translators of the Jerusalem bible thought Jesus was telling the disciples. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]"The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission is a hostile world. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The apostles have taken the words of Jesus two literally and he closes the conversation abruptly."[/SIZE]
I believe Jesus remains in His principle of love.

I want to further the study of the Matthew verse you are clinging to in order to flesh out the principle...

Matthew 5:43-45

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.


Peter does well in explaining this principle...

1 Peter 3:8-17

8Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,

“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
11They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”a

13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threatsb ; do not be frightened.”c 15But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.


Yet we must be aware when it comes to resisting we are taught...

James 4:7
Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

​So the word of God is not contrary to itself...we are to resist without using evil for evil rather love for evil. When I pray, I do not ask that the wicked succeed in their folly, rather that they turn from their wickedness. Here are some other verses you can ponder...

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

These principles work within the framework of love over evil and are completely applicable to the New Covenant. If you need to understand what it is that binds our actions in this covenant look to my signature. These principles above speak to protection...every Christian is called to action here.

Would we be better to have allowed the Holocaust? Shall we allow the destruction of the innocent through abortion? Are we to remain silent through the atrocity of human trafficking? NO!

Finally you are still to respond to post #8...

The crux of your argument is about the Church not adhering to the gospel...none of what you are describing here pertains to the gospel.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
 

Johnlove

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justaname said:
I believe Jesus remains in His principle of love.

I want to further the study of the Matthew verse you are clinging to in order to flesh out the principle...

Matthew 5:43-45

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.


Peter does well in explaining this principle...

1 Peter 3:8-17

8Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10For,

“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
11They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
12For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”a

13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threatsb ; do not be frightened.”c 15But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.


Yet we must be aware when it comes to resisting we are taught...

James 4:7
Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

​So the word of God is not contrary to itself...we are to resist without using evil for evil rather love for evil. When I pray, I do not ask that the wicked succeed in their folly, rather that they turn from their wickedness. Here are some other verses you can ponder...

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

These principles work within the framework of love over evil and are completely applicable to the New Covenant. If you need to understand what it is that binds our actions in this covenant look to my signature. These principles above speak to protection...every Christian is called to action here.

Would we be better to have allowed the Holocaust? Shall we allow the destruction of the innocent through abortion? Are we to remain silent through the atrocity of human trafficking? NO!

Finally you are still to respond to post #8...

The crux of your argument is about the Church not adhering to the gospel...none of what you are describing here pertains to the gospel.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
[SIZE=16pt]What is your point? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Do all the Scripture you quoted negate what Jesus said?[/SIZE]
 

sojourner4Christ

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Here is an interesting passage...

Luke 22:35-36
[SIZE=6.5pt]35[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Then Jesus asked them, [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]“When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]“Nothing,” they answered.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=6.5pt]36[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]He said to them, [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]“But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Here the disciples are told to go and buy a sword or as I interpret it everyone should posses their own sword...interesting. A sword is not a passive tool. Also Jesus in this one passage speaks of having stewardship over and obtaining possessions...[/SIZE]
Indeed.

...the entire OP is debunked in my opinion.
Indeed.

I see this OP as one who feels they have direct revelation from the Christ and everyone else is wrong...very cultic and dangerous. Anyone can say Jesus told me this or that personally...
Ok.

To Johnlove: I would repeat my previous comment: ”Johnlove, my initial suggestion would be for you to focus on one issue at a time, thoroughly fleshing out the details with scripture, until it be resolved. Do not be distracted by the constant lure of rabbit trails.”

Also I have a response at post #8 that seemed to receive no attention...
I read your post #8 and, as concerns the OP, I agree with its summation: “Do not curse what God has blessed.”

Do you believe then that Jesus meant for the apostles to use swords to kill people?
The word tells us murder is a sin.

Swords to defend themselves?

[SIZE=16pt]Do you believe two swords would be enough to defend all of them?[/SIZE]
Jesus obviously thought two swords were sufficient and said as much.

[SIZE=16pt]Do you believe Jesus was saying what he preached about loving his or her enemies was not any longer true?[/SIZE]
Of course it’s true. Satan is an enemy, too, and what will God do with Satan in the end game?

The following is what the translators of the Jerusalem bible thought Jesus was telling the disciples.

[SIZE=16pt]"The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission is a hostile world. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The apostles have taken the words of Jesus two literally and he closes the conversation abruptly."[/SIZE]
Johnlove, do not be deceived. Why should we care what ”the translators thought” when rather we are to take God at his word when he says he has preserved his pure inspired word for ever (Psalm 12:6,7)? Do not be surprised that, from the beginning, wicked men have sought to misdirect us away from the Absolute Truth and onto their inventions, some other “versions” of God’s truth, such as the copyrighted “Jerusalem bible.”

[SIZE=7pt]You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: [/SIZE][SIZE=7pt]offer the wicked man no resistance[/SIZE][SIZE=7pt].”[/SIZE]

I agree with this verse. I do not agree that this verse applies to governments or police forces. As I have already shown, Paul points to government as wielding the sword and Jesus nor John the Baptist ever commanded a soldier to give up their occupation. I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. Jesus was a Jew who knew and taught the heart of God displayed in the Law. The Law of Moses taught that it was RIGHT for authorities to stop and punish wickedness, but WRONG for individuals to engage in personal vengeance (Lev. 19:18). Jesus and the Apostles taught that we should not repay evil with evil. However, this is very different from bringing justice to the wicked or for governments and police forces to protect the helpless. This is right and good and there is NO VERSE that teaches that a Christian cannot be a part of a system or police force that provides such protection and justice to the oppressed and helpless.

So, if someone attacks me for being a Christian, then I would not resist or fight back. I would strive to, like Jesus, endure hardship for righteousness sake. However, this is very different from seeing a small child being abused by an adult and walking away, allowing the oppression to continue. Or, to see a woman being beat with a baseball bat on a street corner and expect Christians to walk by with their hands in their pockets. THAT is evil...and is not what Jesus is talking about in this verse. It is right to come to the aid of the helpless. There is nothing wrong with the verse you are citing, its is your application that is wrong.

Anyway, I am done with this. You are dancing around the issues. We are not saved by what we do or do not do. We are saved by grace through faith in the work of God in Jesus Christ. You want to make our salvation about pacifism, which is NOT related to the message of salvation that the early church taught. You are condemning people who love and trust the Lord because they disagree with you on a controversial issue. You are wrong to do this. If you have a conviction on the issue, fine. Just don't make it a matter of salvation for those who also read the Bible and see it teaching a different perspective on the matter.
Indeed; an interesting view.

One of the most plain examples of the mindset of Jesus our Lord, in his temporal ministry, was his dealings with the Roman Centurion who besought Jesus to heal his servant (Matthew 8:5-13).

First, this Centurion, this Roman Federal agent, was clearly a “believer,” even calling Jesus "Lord." It is clear from his response to Jesus that he possessed great faith in God. How did Jesus respond? Did he and his disciples run him off, this representative of brutally oppressive Rome, angrily screaming, “You jack-booted imperialist Roman thug! You murderous, sword-happy butcher! Get out of my sight! How dare you ask me for anything!”

No, he commended him for his great faith. He held him up as an example against his own people. He didn't “pigeon-hole” him to dehumanize him. He healed his servant.

Then at another point, we read where the Pharisees tried to hobble and silence Jesus through coercion, intimidation, and fear of the governing authorities, that being Herod at the time. Jesus knew even the Federal law enforcement community couldn't do anything to oppose God's work and will in his life-indeed, the same work in all our lives -- until it was thoroughly accomplished. So, Jesus was somewhat blunt in his response to this silly “threat,” as it wasn't really a threat at all, and continued to operate in spite of the Federal presence.

Another powerful example of a servant of Christ dealing with an onerous law enforcement framework was Paul. Throughout the whole book of Acts and his ministry, Paul not only dealt effectively with the local and Federal law enforcement community, he thrived within it. Paul, at one time was a law enforcer, an officer representing a governing body, as we see recorded in the beginning of Acts 9 where he was given authority by the Jewish religious high command to bring any Christians he found, bound to Jerusalem (before the Lord “recruited” him on the road to Damascus). So it's true he might of had some pre-existing sympathy for the cops.

We read about one notable example of Paul in custody, the way he and Silas responded to it, and then the way Paul responded to the Phillippian jailer (Acts 16: 25-30). If Paul had hated the cops, if he had an attitude of disrespect and contempt for them, he would surely have said nothing as this honorable jailer had committed suicide for his misguided belief he had let his prisoners escape. But Paul stopped him. Paul and Silas ended up witnessing to this, what would be a modern day “correctional officer,” and leading him and his house to the Lord. In Paul's mind, law enforcers were not enemies or people to be avoided and mistrusted, but people who he saw needed a real and dynamic relationship with the Lord, like everybody else.

Another example, in Acts 21, we see where Paul had found himself in the middle of a near riot situation as the Jews of the city were enraged at him. As they were in the process of pounding him into a bloody pulp, the local law enforcers strode in there, probably in full armor (riot gear) prepared for crowd control, and quite literally had to carry him out on their shoulders (Acts 21:33-35).

Was Paul glad to see the local cops? I'm sure he was! I'm sure he was quite gratified to see these law men muscling through the crowd, shouting commands and shoving people aside to get to him. I'm sure he realized after that, that the Lord had Providentially protected him through these law enforcers so that he could continue on with his ministry. It possibly could have been all over right there. But the Lord used the Feds to protect him.

Another example we see of Paul's attitude towards the Federal law enforcement community and, indeed, their established respect and trust of him, can be seen in the account of the shipwreck in Acts 27. Indeed, we read that the Centurion, Julius, in charge of the prisoners and before the departure, “... courteously entreated Paul, and gave him liberty to go unto his friends to refresh himself.” What a wonderful thing! How many Federal or Local cops would let a prisoner in custody do that?! The great trust between these people is undeniable.

As the journey by ship took place, we see that a great storm overtook them, yet with Paul's counsel, that encouragement being received from the “Angel of God,” they grounded the ship on the island of Melita. The soldiers in charge of the prisoners wanted to kill them, lest they escape, but the relationship Paul had established with the Centurion, the senior officer in charge, prevented that also.

When Paul finally made it to Rome, we see the Centurion “delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.” Protective custody. In the final chapter of Acts, we see that Paul's reputation, integrity, and his open relationship with the Roman Federal law enforcement community served him well, even for many years afterwards.

In light of clear scriptural precedent in dealing with the governing authorities, much of the material I read, and the attitudes I see on the part of people who claim to be Christians, is discouraging. True, in America, we need to hold the law enforcement agencies accountable and the federal law enforcement community responsible for their actions. True, in America, the original arrangement of the Constitution laid out clearly the dispersal of power through the nation, bounds which the FBI is over-stepping while, in other areas, completely wrecking their credibility in the eyes of the country. However, these trends are all transitory and fleeting temporal issues reflecting a fundamentally spiritual problem.

Christ spent his entire life in a region occupied by troops of a foreign conqueror. Hence, his message was delivered in an occupied country. Still, the gospel records indicate that he never gave the slightest support to any movement aimed at a military revolution that might bring national freedom.

Even as it was in Imperial Roman occupied Israel, so it is in America today. It's a matter of humility and repentance before God. A much quoted verse, to the point it has almost lost its meaning, says this,

2 Chronicles 7:14, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Yet many fail to see who this is directed at. Not the unbelievers, not the Liberals, not the anarchists and anti-authority types, not the atheists. The Lord is saying, “My people.”

The American culture is obsessed with salvation by politics. We as a corporate body cannot comprehend any other way of changing the culture. They do not understand that God changes cultures by the preaching of the Word. Nineveh's culture was not changed by Jonah getting elected king or arguing that Nineveh stop socialism or stealing from her citizens. It was changed when God ordered him to preach.

William Penn said, “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” Franklin Sanders once said, “So what is the answer? The only answer to every need of sinful humanity: the Gospel. The hearts of America must be changed, and the nation brought to obedience to God. All other changes, including gun-toting militias, are merely cosmetic.”

God hates compromise and fear, as these are traits imputed to simple unbelief. He also hates insubordination and contempt of lawful authority by his people. Note well his rebuke of King Saul,

I Samuel 15:23, “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.”

Both Jesus and Paul recognized the primacy of the spiritual realm as the command sphere in their outreach to the world around them, the paramount fundamental purposes and work of the Father in their lives, and the rule of correction by the Sovereign Hand of God wrought through the oppressive Imperial Roman Army over their nation and stratum of influence. Yet, their relationship with the Local and Federal law enforcement community was not unfriendly nor antagonistic, but a mutually counterbalanced combination of Supremely ordained forces working to accomplish the will of God in the world. As solid spiritual leaders, they operated in the midst, right out in front of God and everybody, in spite of the Roman Federal force.

Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New Testament saints -- nor even Jesus -- are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

As I have laid out, the policy and precedent of Jesus and Paul concerning interaction with law enforcement, both Local and Federal, is pretty clear. The Lord used the Feds to Providentially protect his people, and his work, and saved Paul's' skin more than once. One day he may use them to save yours.

Primarily in the spiritual realm, a servant of Christ is a "type" of Police officer in the community, upholding God's Law which militates against the immorality and hedonism which can so easily overwhelm a society -- lawlessness and anarchy. Even as a Police officer upholds the "law of the land," a follower of Christ, if he is faithful to God and his word, upholds and defends God's Law contained therein. To be the "standard" against lawlessness, to protect the weak, to uphold the law, to "resist evil." That's the job and calling that they have been tasked with as well as what society expects of them. Opposing evil, standing against lawlessness and anarchy, is the very core of their vocation. That's the duty of carrying that badge. Our calling is to stand in opposition to the forces of darkness as well. Therefore, followers of Christ can proudly say they are an "officer of The Law" as well.

There are few civilians with the understanding, experience, and insight to possess the qualifications to understand fully, modern day Police work, let alone the unique dynamics and peculiar practices which entail the same. Most people, as civilians, view their local law enforcement officer with a bit of mystery and bewilderment, not having a clue as to what these people have to endure every day, the training they have to go through, the demands that are made on them through the whole chain of command.

Now concerning Jesus Christ's assembly, does "the world" understand his assembly and his ways? Is "the world" qualified to comment on spiritual things and the duties of the Christ's assembly? Of course not. The Scripture clearly states: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Corinthians 2:14). Post modernist, humanist, and secular thinkers view most religion as "superstitious" and "regressive," even "stone-age."

The bottom line is, just as the only people qualified to police a modern day professional law enforcement agency are other professionals (their peers), so, too, the only people qualified to effectively police Jesus Christ's assembly are other spiritual leaders in Jesus Christ's assembly.

Of course they were lying ... Jesus said the opposite ... render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
You’ve missed the point, and that is: What is it, which you are presently partaking of, that belongs to Caesar? What is it, which you currently possess, that would require such a rendering from you unto Caesar (rather than unto God)?

God gives people the gov’t they deserve. And Caesar en-forces his contracts. So why do you continue to enter into contracts with Caesar?

There is a form of obedience that leads to death:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16)
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heretoeternity

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Saved? Saved does not necessarily mean one will enter the kingdom of God. You will not be able to prove it means entering the kingdom of heaven by the written Word of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]A sinner will never enter God’s kingdom. Paul says that. (1 Corinthians 6:9-19)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus tells us who it is that will come with him to the kingdom of heaven in the following scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 7:21-23)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 5, Jesus fulfills the prophesies from the Old Testament about His coming..Isaiah, Jeremiah etc....God's law remains intact, as Jesus said "heaven and earth will pass away but not one thing will be changed in the law until all is fulfilled"...that is obviously the end of the age in Revelation and Matthew 24...then all will be fulfilled, upon His return...[/SIZE]
 

Johnlove

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heretoeternity said:
[SIZE=16pt]Saved? Saved does not necessarily mean one will enter the kingdom of God. You will not be able to prove it means entering the kingdom of heaven by the written Word of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]A sinner will never enter God’s kingdom. Paul says that. (1 Corinthians 6:9-19)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus tells us who it is that will come with him to the kingdom of heaven in the following scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 7:21-23)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 5, Jesus fulfills the prophesies from the Old Testament about His coming..Isaiah, Jeremiah etc....God's law remains intact, as Jesus said "heaven and earth will pass away but not one thing will be changed in the law until all is fulfilled"...that is obviously the end of the age in Revelation and Matthew 24...then all will be fulfilled, upon His return...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:17) “Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus complete the Law of the Prophets. What Jesus taught is the completions of the Law of the Prophets.[/SIZE]
 

justaname

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]What is your point? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Do all the Scripture you quoted negate what Jesus said?[/SIZE]
The point is the wooden interpretation of the Matthew 5:39 passage is not accurate. It is the principle that Jesus is teaching, which is further explained through other verses in scripture. No one seeks to negate Jesus, nor will scripture ever negate Him, we only seek to interpret what He was conveying.

The other point I made with clarity is "the gospel" is Jesus' death for our sins, His resurrection, and His return. All to God's glory. Nothing more; nothing less.

My friend I do not desire to discredit your relationship with the Christ. I can not prove nor disprove the validity of your claim, nor do I seek any measure in either direction. What I can do though is direct you to scripture where what is stressed is the gospel. Salvation is based on our faith in such. We are also called to holiness, as to which none disagree. This holiness is founded in love, which must be the guiding principle of our every choice, thought, word, or action. Love is not the natural choice, selfishness is. Love is not always the easy choice, yet it is always the proper choice. This principle of love is also to be applied to money and possessions. The child of God knows all things belong to the Father and we are merely stewards.

I pray God gives you clarity in your interpretations of the scriptures, in Jesus' name, amen.

In the Love of Christ, be blessed!
 

Johnlove

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justaname said:
The point is the wooden interpretation of the Matthew 5:39 passage is not accurate. It is the principle that Jesus is teaching, which is further explained through other verses in scripture. No one seeks to negate Jesus, nor will scripture ever negate Him, we only seek to interpret what He was conveying.
[SIZE=16pt]Matthew 3:9 tells us exactly what Jesus meant. Your statement that other scripture explains that it does not mean what Jesus said is just not true.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Christian Church taught and live passivism until Constantine the Great coned the Church to disobey God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]My personal witness is that Jesus actually came to me and told me we were not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. [/SIZE]
The other point I made with clarity is "the gospel" is Jesus' death for our sins, His resurrection, and His return. All to God's glory. Nothing more; nothing less.
[SIZE=16pt]Again scripture tells us you are wrong.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]John tells us that Jesus came to destroy the devil’s work.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:17) “Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus said he came to complete the Law, and not to do away with the Law. If God has Law then that means he intends for us to obey the Law. [/SIZE]
My friend I do not desire to discredit your relationship with the Christ. I can not prove nor disprove the validity of your claim, nor do I seek any measure in either direction. What I can do though is direct you to scripture where what is stressed is the gospel. Salvation is based on our faith in such. We are also called to holiness, as to which none disagree. This holiness is founded in love, which must be the guiding principle of our every choice, thought, word, or action. Love is not the natural choice, selfishness is. Love is not always the easy choice, yet it is always the proper choice. This principle of love is also to be applied to money and possessions. The child of God knows all things belong to the Father and we are merely stewards.

I pray God gives you clarity in your interpretations of the scriptures, in Jesus' name, amen.

In the Love of Christ, be blessed!


[SIZE=16pt]To love is to obey God. One does not have love unless he or she lives God’s Word.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Notice Jesus said anyone who loves him will keep his word.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Notice again Jesus tells us those who receives his commandments and keeps them are those who love him.[/SIZE]
 

HearGod

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sojourner4Christ said:
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Indeed.


Indeed.


Ok.

To Johnlove: I would repeat my previous comment: ”Johnlove, my initial suggestion would be for you to focus on one issue at a time, thoroughly fleshing out the details with scripture, until it be resolved. Do not be distracted by the constant lure of rabbit trails.”


I read your post #8 and, as concerns the OP, I agree with its summation: “Do not curse what God has blessed.”


The word tells us murder is a sin.


Jesus obviously thought two swords were sufficient and said as much.


Of course it’s true. Satan is an enemy, too, and what will God do with Satan in the end game?


Johnlove, do not be deceived. Why should we care what ”the translators thought” when rather we are to take God at his word when he says he has preserved his pure inspired word for ever (Psalm 12:6,7)? Do not be surprised that, from the beginning, wicked men have sought to misdirect us away from the Absolute Truth and onto their inventions, some other “versions” of God’s truth, such as the copyrighted “Jerusalem bible.”


Indeed; an interesting view.

One of the most plain examples of the mindset of Jesus our Lord, in his temporal ministry, was his dealings with the Roman Centurion who besought Jesus to heal his servant (Matthew 8:5-13).

First, this Centurion, this Roman Federal agent, was clearly a “believer,” even calling Jesus "Lord." It is clear from his response to Jesus that he possessed great faith in God. How did Jesus respond? Did he and his disciples run him off, this representative of brutally oppressive Rome, angrily screaming, “You jack-booted imperialist Roman thug! You murderous, sword-happy butcher! Get out of my sight! How dare you ask me for anything!”

No, he commended him for his great faith. He held him up as an example against his own people. He didn't “pigeon-hole” him to dehumanize him. He healed his servant.

Then at another point, we read where the Pharisees tried to hobble and silence Jesus through coercion, intimidation, and fear of the governing authorities, that being Herod at the time. Jesus knew even the Federal law enforcement community couldn't do anything to oppose God's work and will in his life-indeed, the same work in all our lives -- until it was thoroughly accomplished. So, Jesus was somewhat blunt in his response to this silly “threat,” as it wasn't really a threat at all, and continued to operate in spite of the Federal presence.

Another powerful example of a servant of Christ dealing with an onerous law enforcement framework was Paul. Throughout the whole book of Acts and his ministry, Paul not only dealt effectively with the local and Federal law enforcement community, he thrived within it. Paul, at one time was a law enforcer, an officer representing a governing body, as we see recorded in the beginning of Acts 9 where he was given authority by the Jewish religious high command to bring any Christians he found, bound to Jerusalem (before the Lord “recruited” him on the road to Damascus). So it's true he might of had some pre-existing sympathy for the cops.

We read about one notable example of Paul in custody, the way he and Silas responded to it, and then the way Paul responded to the Phillippian jailer (Acts 16: 25-30). If Paul had hated the cops, if he had an attitude of disrespect and contempt for them, he would surely have said nothing as this honorable jailer had committed suicide for his misguided belief he had let his prisoners escape. But Paul stopped him. Paul and Silas ended up witnessing to this, what would be a modern day “correctional officer,” and leading him and his house to the Lord. In Paul's mind, law enforcers were not enemies or people to be avoided and mistrusted, but people who he saw needed a real and dynamic relationship with the Lord, like everybody else.

Another example, in Acts 21, we see where Paul had found himself in the middle of a near riot situation as the Jews of the city were enraged at him. As they were in the process of pounding him into a bloody pulp, the local law enforcers strode in there, probably in full armor (riot gear) prepared for crowd control, and quite literally had to carry him out on their shoulders (Acts 21:33-35).

Was Paul glad to see the local cops? I'm sure he was! I'm sure he was quite gratified to see these law men muscling through the crowd, shouting commands and shoving people aside to get to him. I'm sure he realized after that, that the Lord had Providentially protected him through these law enforcers so that he could continue on with his ministry. It possibly could have been all over right there. But the Lord used the Feds to protect him.

Another example we see of Paul's attitude towards the Federal law enforcement community and, indeed, their established respect and trust of him, can be seen in the account of the shipwreck in Acts 27. Indeed, we read that the Centurion, Julius, in charge of the prisoners and before the departure, “... courteously entreated Paul, and gave him liberty to go unto his friends to refresh himself.” What a wonderful thing! How many Federal or Local cops would let a prisoner in custody do that?! The great trust between these people is undeniable.

As the journey by ship took place, we see that a great storm overtook them, yet with Paul's counsel, that encouragement being received from the “Angel of God,” they grounded the ship on the island of Melita. The soldiers in charge of the prisoners wanted to kill them, lest they escape, but the relationship Paul had established with the Centurion, the senior officer in charge, prevented that also.

When Paul finally made it to Rome, we see the Centurion “delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.” Protective custody. In the final chapter of Acts, we see that Paul's reputation, integrity, and his open relationship with the Roman Federal law enforcement community served him well, even for many years afterwards.

In light of clear scriptural precedent in dealing with the governing authorities, much of the material I read, and the attitudes I see on the part of people who claim to be Christians, is discouraging. True, in America, we need to hold the law enforcement agencies accountable and the federal law enforcement community responsible for their actions. True, in America, the original arrangement of the Constitution laid out clearly the dispersal of power through the nation, bounds which the FBI is over-stepping while, in other areas, completely wrecking their credibility in the eyes of the country. However, these trends are all transitory and fleeting temporal issues reflecting a fundamentally spiritual problem.

Christ spent his entire life in a region occupied by troops of a foreign conqueror. Hence, his message was delivered in an occupied country. Still, the gospel records indicate that he never gave the slightest support to any movement aimed at a military revolution that might bring national freedom.

Even as it was in Imperial Roman occupied Israel, so it is in America today. It's a matter of humility and repentance before God. A much quoted verse, to the point it has almost lost its meaning, says this,

2 Chronicles 7:14, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Yet many fail to see who this is directed at. Not the unbelievers, not the Liberals, not the anarchists and anti-authority types, not the atheists. The Lord is saying, “My people.”

The American culture is obsessed with salvation by politics. We as a corporate body cannot comprehend any other way of changing the culture. They do not understand that God changes cultures by the preaching of the Word. Nineveh's culture was not changed by Jonah getting elected king or arguing that Nineveh stop socialism or stealing from her citizens. It was changed when God ordered him to preach.

William Penn said, “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” Franklin Sanders once said, “So what is the answer? The only answer to every need of sinful humanity: the Gospel. The hearts of America must be changed, and the nation brought to obedience to God. All other changes, including gun-toting militias, are merely cosmetic.”

God hates compromise and fear, as these are traits imputed to simple unbelief. He also hates insubordination and contempt of lawful authority by his people. Note well his rebuke of King Saul,

I Samuel 15:23, “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.”

Both Jesus and Paul recognized the primacy of the spiritual realm as the command sphere in their outreach to the world around them, the paramount fundamental purposes and work of the Father in their lives, and the rule of correction by the Sovereign Hand of God wrought through the oppressive Imperial Roman Army over their nation and stratum of influence. Yet, their relationship with the Local and Federal law enforcement community was not unfriendly nor antagonistic, but a mutually counterbalanced combination of Supremely ordained forces working to accomplish the will of God in the world. As solid spiritual leaders, they operated in the midst, right out in front of God and everybody, in spite of the Roman Federal force.

Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New Testament saints -- nor even Jesus -- are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

As I have laid out, the policy and precedent of Jesus and Paul concerning interaction with law enforcement, both Local and Federal, is pretty clear. The Lord used the Feds to Providentially protect his people, and his work, and saved Paul's' skin more than once. One day he may use them to save yours.

Primarily in the spiritual realm, a servant of Christ is a "type" of Police officer in the community, upholding God's Law which militates against the immorality and hedonism which can so easily overwhelm a society -- lawlessness and anarchy. Even as a Police officer upholds the "law of the land," a follower of Christ, if he is faithful to God and his word, upholds and defends God's Law contained therein. To be the "standard" against lawlessness, to protect the weak, to uphold the law, to "resist evil." That's the job and calling that they have been tasked with as well as what society expects of them. Opposing evil, standing against lawlessness and anarchy, is the very core of their vocation. That's the duty of carrying that badge. Our calling is to stand in opposition to the forces of darkness as well. Therefore, followers of Christ can proudly say they are an "officer of The Law" as well.

There are few civilians with the understanding, experience, and insight to possess the qualifications to understand fully, modern day Police work, let alone the unique dynamics and peculiar practices which entail the same. Most people, as civilians, view their local law enforcement officer with a bit of mystery and bewilderment, not having a clue as to what these people have to endure every day, the training they have to go through, the demands that are made on them through the whole chain of command.

Now concerning Jesus Christ's assembly, does "the world" understand his assembly and his ways? Is "the world" qualified to comment on spiritual things and the duties of the Christ's assembly? Of course not. The Scripture clearly states: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Corinthians 2:14). Post modernist, humanist, and secular thinkers view most religion as "superstitious" and "regressive," even "stone-age."

The bottom line is, just as the only people qualified to police a modern day professional law enforcement agency are other professionals (their peers), so, too, the only people qualified to effectively police Jesus Christ's assembly are other spiritual leaders in Jesus Christ's assembly.


You’ve missed the point, and that is: What is it, which you are presently partaking of, that belongs to Caesar? What is it, which you currently possess, that would require such a rendering from you unto Caesar (rather than unto God)?

God gives people the gov’t they deserve. And Caesar en-forces his contracts. So why do you continue to enter into contracts with Caesar?

There is a form of obedience that leads to death:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16)
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HearGod said:
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:?????

Pray tell, are you able to prove/show to us how this is Scripture? Simply put, do you know how to examine or rightly cut to divide the word of the truth by yourself?

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:?????

Do you have a problem reading? Why are you continuing with your lengthy nonsense [preaching] when you can't even figure out this 10-word verse (among those dozens of verses) which you quoted (as if there is no tomorrow).

Please do not be rude. Unless you are not capable of holding a decent conversation, please answer both my 1-liner questions first. I repeat:

1) Pray tell, are you able to prove/show to us how this is Scripture?
2) Simply put, do you know how to examine or rightly cut to divide the word of the truth by yourself?
 

Johnlove

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HearGod said:
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:?????

Do you have a problem reading? Why are you continuing with your lengthy nonsense [preaching] when you can't even figure out this 10-word verse (among those dozens of verses, as though there is no tomorrow) which you quoted.

Please do not be rude. Unless you are not capable of holding a decent conversation, please answer both my 1-liner questions first. I repeat:

1) Pray tell, are you able to prove/show to us how this is Scripture?
2) Simply put, do you know how to examine or rightly cut to divide the word of the truth by yourself?
[SIZE=16pt]Christian are not of the world, and are not to help the world force its laws.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul explains this in the following scripture. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teaching that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The World because it is not Christian and still sins need to have laws, and people to enforce its laws. [/SIZE]
 

HearGod

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Christian are not of the world, and are not to help the world force its laws.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul explains this in the following scripture. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 Timothy 1:8-11) “We know, of course, that the Law is good, but only provided it is treated like any law, in the understanding that laws are not framed for people who are good. On the contrary, they are for criminals and revolutionaries, for the irreligious and the wicked, for the sacrilegious and the irreverent; they are for people who kill their fathers or mothers and for murderers, for those who are immoral with women or with boys or with men, for liars and for perjurers and for everything else that is contrary to the sound teaching that goes with the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, the gospel that was entrusted to me.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The World because it is not Christian and still sins need to have laws, and people to enforce its laws. [/SIZE]
You are way, way out of line. I would pray God for a brain if I were you. (Sigh!) What say you, sojourner4Christ ?
 

Johnlove

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HearGod said:
You are way, way out of line. I would pray God for a brain if I were you. (Sigh!) What say you, sojourner4Christ ?
[SIZE=16pt]Does your post sound like a loving Christian’s opinion?[/SIZE]
 

HearGod

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Does your post sound like a loving Christian’s opinion?[/SIZE]
Likewise, I won't expect Yehshua to be a men-pleaser too. Sorry!
 

justaname

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Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]To love is to obey God. One does not have love unless he or she lives God’s Word.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Notice Jesus said anyone who loves him will keep his word.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Notice again Jesus tells us those who receives his commandments and keeps them are those who love him.[/SIZE]
Johnlove....

The main point I want you to comprehend is I am not wrong in my assessment of the gospel you are...the rest is arbitrary. I do not see pacifism as a biblical concept, you do.

Paul lays out exactly what the gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. Do you disagree? Does Paul mention anything else that he considers the gospel? My assessment of the gospel is biblically sound.

The fact is I can grab any verse in the Bible and say, "THIS IS THE GOSPEL" when in all actuality it is not. This is what you have done. You claim special revelation from Jesus, yet it does not coincide with scripture, nor is it the gospel the apostles preached. You present a false gospel. Your gospel is based on works, not faith in the completed work of Christ.


Lets look to what John meant when he said to obey God's commandments...

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
 

sojourner4Christ

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May 23, 2014
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Firstly, in a previous post of mine in this thread (post #53), this was my initial comment on a poster’s citation of Deu. chap. 28:

And this third citation of yours, Deu 28, is especially troubling. The entire chapter is a description of what will befall those who do NOT follow God’s commandments e.g. you will eat the flesh of your sons and daughters, etc. etc. It is an incredibly vivid description of what happens to those who pursue self-will rather than God’s will. AND, as a part of God’s judgment, it tells us that God will give those disobedient people over to the BONDAGE WROUGHT OF THE LENDERS. Here’s the only verse in that chapter that mentions “lend”:

Deu 28 - He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

Do you “like” being the tail and not the head? Do you understand the implications of that in your daily walk?
Further to that comment, I since discovered there are actually TWO mentions of the word lend in your citation. I had cited the second; here is the very first mention:

The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow. And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: (Deu 28: 12-13).

The conclusion is obvious. The first part of your cited chapter details the blessings they would enjoy if they were OBEDIENT to God, and the second part of the chapter details the calamities they would endure if they were DISOBEDIENT to God.

Consequence of Obedience: When they lend only, and do not borrow, they become the head and not the tail; they are above their enemies and not below them. (verses 12 & 13).

Consequence of Disobedience: When they borrow only, and do not lend, they become the tail and not the head; they are below their enemies and not above them. (verse 44).

And God’s preferred status for us, as described in the first part of your Deu. chap. 28 citation, has been commented on by others:

They should have honour among their neighbours (v. 1): The Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations. He made them so, by taking them into covenant with himself, ch. 26:19. And he would make them more and more so by their outward prosperity, if they would not by sin disparage themselves. Two things should help to make them great among the nations:-First, Their wealth (v. 12): "Thou shalt lend to many nations upon interest' (which they were allowed to take from the neighbouring nations), "but thou shalt not have occasion to borrow.” This would give them great influence with all about them; for the borrower is servant to the lender. It may be meant of trade and commerce, that they should export abundantly more than they should import, which would keep the balance on their side. Secondly, Their power (v. 13): "The Lord shall make thee the head, to give law to all about thee, to exact tribute, and to arbitrate all controversies.' Every sheaf should bow to theirs, which would make them so considerable that all the people of the earth would be afraid of them (v. 10), that is, would reverence their true grandeur, and dread making them their enemies. The flourishing of religion among them, and the blessing of God upon them, would make them formidable to all their neighbours, terrible as an army with banners. -- Matthew Henry

It doesn’t get any plainer than that. The listed consequences of the lend/borrow/debt issue rest with our obedience, or disobedience, to God’s commandments.

The borrower is servant to the lender. Do not borrow. Be a lender and not a borrower.

BTW, because the citizens of USA continue to violate God’s commandment (e.g. do not borrow), the consequences of that disobedience are listed in the second half of your cited passage, i.e. Deu. 28:15-68. Suffice to say, it’s a terrible and dreadful read.

Secondly, in a previous post of mine in this thread (post #57), re: the cited Mat. 5:39:

Even Christ Himself did not literally turn the other cheek when smitten by a member of the Sanhedrin (John 18:22-23), or when struck on the face by the palms of the Roman guards (Matthew 26:67-68, Mark 14:65, Luke 22:64).

Matthew 5:39 is speaking about the custom of the Romans when a superior would demand obedience from an inferior. Christ was showing disdain for them when he said to turn the other cheek. When struck by a Roman superior in the first century, you where to drop to one knee or put your forehead in the dirt before them. To turn the other cheek to him would be a very defiant act when you were struck on the face. We are not to resist with violence, of course, but with love. That is truly resisting evil.

By simply turning the other cheek for him to hit, you are refusing to partake of the evil resulting from bowing to man, and at the same time you are not reverting to violence. We are to "overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21). You are showing him, out of love, that you can only bow to One Lord, and no man will you ever bow down to. You show him that you will place God's command above man's command, no matter what the consequences will be. You are willing to take the punishment, and are willing to get "hit again" by your enemies, but you will stand firm in God's Law of love. By taking a stand such as this, the one who hits you may very well flee from you (James 4:7).

Thirdly,


Please do not be rude. Unless you are not capable of holding a decent conversation, please answer both my 1-liner questions first.

[and]

You are way, way out of line. I would pray God for a brain if I were you. (Sigh!) What say you, sojourner4Christ ?
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him (Pro. 26:4).


The World because it is not Christian and still sins need to have laws, and people to enforce its laws.
Fourthly, what’s the purpose of man’s ungodly authority? God has always used man’s ungodly governments as his rod of correction. If you’re at the wrong place, partaking of the wrong thing, God makes it a hot bed of coals there so that you will come back over to him where his burden is easy and his yoke is light.
 

Johnlove

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Jul 1, 2014
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justaname said:
Johnlove....

The main point I want you to comprehend is I am not wrong in my assessment of the gospel you are...the rest is arbitrary. I do not see pacifism as a biblical concept, you do.

Paul lays out exactly what the gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. Do you disagree? Does Paul mention anything else that he considers the gospel? My assessment of the gospel is biblically sound.

The fact is I can grab any verse in the Bible and say, "THIS IS THE GOSPEL" when in all actuality it is not. This is what you have done. You claim special revelation from Jesus, yet it does not coincide with scripture, nor is it the gospel the apostles preached. You present a false gospel. Your gospel is based on works, not faith in the completed work of Christ.


Lets look to what John meant when he said to obey God's commandments...

1 John 3:23
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SIZE=16pt]By the way you saying your assessment of scripture is correct is nothing but your opinion. Who taught you your assessment of scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]If you still sin then it is not God who taught you, but the devil.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]See John says anyone who is sinful is of the devil. So if you or your teachers sins then your are being taught by the devil. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:29-30) “If your right eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body thrown into hell. And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.”[/SIZE]