Open apologetic: Why is there evil in the world?

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michaelvpardo

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justaname said:
A little Scripture to illuminate your position...These are thought to be the words of the Christ.

John 3:19-20
19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
some scripture asserting God's love for us in a fallen state:

16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:7-8

Some scripture about our hatred of God:

5. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:5-8

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4

1. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:1-7

6. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
9. (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),
10. proving what is acceptable to the Lord. Ephesians 5:6-10

1. If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
5. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7. in which you also once walked when you lived in them. Colossians 3:1-7

Some people tend to be religious, having been raised in a religious environment, and these will rarely see themselves as hating God, but their actions (their sin) reveals the nature that their minds reject. God defines love as obedience (or at least God says that love is expressed in obedience):

4. He who says, "I know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5

"I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. John 12:46

9. "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. John 15:9-10

22. "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Matthew 7:22-23
 

logabe

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Because evil has a purpose. PS. 34:21 says,

21 Evil shall slay the wicked, And those who hate the righteous will be condemned.

So God really did know what He was doing.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

aspen

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Michael V Pardo said:
Sound explanation, but would an unbeliever receive it? The average atheist isn't likely to even believe that Adam and Eve ever existed.
Thank you for your participation.
Good conversation. Honestly, I am not sure Adam and Eve existed. What I do believe is the story of Creation as relayed to Moses, probably in a vision. It is my favorite part of the Bible and is totally accurate in describing the human condition. I know from experience that people who are just trying to survive - economically / health wise / mental health wise / emotional maturity wise / etc have a tendency to hoard goods and services. In their case, I can understand their pain and desire to act selfishly. In the case of those who are thriving and still acting selfishly, I have a harder time understanding.

In all cases - rich or poor, we are selfish without Christ and we are acting against our nature because we were created good. This state of being causes disease and war, and death. People can believe in all three because it is self evident. Our job as Christians is to show everyone that we were created to thrive rather than survive - this requires us to be vulnerable with ourselves, God, and our neighbors - we need to reach out and love others rather than hoard. This is the gospel / salvation / and entirely believable to skeptics and materialists
 

michaelvpardo

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aspen said:
...., I can understand their pain and desire to act selfishly. In the case of those who are thriving and still acting selfishly, I have a harder time understanding.

In all cases - rich or poor, we are selfish without Christ and we are acting against our nature because we were created good. This state of being causes disease and war, and death. People can believe in all three because it is self evident. Our job as Christians is to show everyone that we were created to thrive rather than survive - this requires us to be vulnerable with ourselves, God, and our neighbors - we need to reach out and love others rather than hoard. This is the gospel / salvation / and entirely believable to skeptics and materialists
I don't find much to disagree with in your comments, but according to the scripture it was Adam and Eve (along with the rest of creation) that were created good, and when the fist man fell we inherited a corrupted nature.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned Romans 5:12
If we haven't been born again through faith in the Son of God, when we sin it is according to our nature (which is fallen). This is exactly why it is necessary that we be born again to a new nature with the indwelling of His Spirit:
5. Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6
You've said that you can understand people hoarding when they have very little, but not when they have much. People work at accumulating goods and wealth generally for two reasons, one being that wealth gives people a degree of power over other people (those willing to submit to another man's will in exchange for payment which is the norm in the workplace.) The other reason is for a sense of security: People learn to place their trust in money rather than in God:
11. "Beware that you do not forget the Lord your God by not keeping His commandments, His judgments, and His statutes which I command you today,
12. "lest when you have eaten and are full, and have built beautiful houses and dwell in them;
13. "and when your herds and your flocks multiply, and your silver and your gold are multiplied, and all that you have is multiplied;
14. "when your heart is lifted up, and you forget the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage; Deuteronomy 8:11-14

1. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!
2. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
3. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
4. Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
5. You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. James 5:1-5

17. "Because you say, `I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing' and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked
18. "I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. Revelation 3:17-18

7. Two things I request of You (Deprive me not before I die):
8. remove falsehood and lies far from me; give me neither poverty nor riches feed me with the food You prescribe for me;
9. Lest I be full and deny You, and say, "Who is the Lord?'' Or lest I be poor and steal, and profane the name of my God. Proverbs 30:7-9
The scripture tells us that God gives us the power to earn wealth, but also warns us not seek wealth because riches are deceptive. I don't know if you've ever handled any gold, but most people do handle some in their lifetimes, usually in the form of jewelry. It's an attractive metal that appeals to the eyes and is fairly dense and therefore weighty. Throughout history people have sought to possess it and accumulate it, sometimes for what it may buy, but more commonly just for its appearance and qualities. There is a reason that the idols of wealthy people have often been made of or covered with gold. It incites lust within us and a covetousness for which men have killed repeatedly, sometimes in mass genocide. The problem isn't with the metal itself, but with sin in our own hearts. I believe it was one of the Rockefellers that when asked how much money was enough responded, " a little more." Gold not only excites the lust of the eye, but it's perceived value appeals to the pride of life (I must be special if I possess more than you do.) In our time the wealth of most people is reckoned in holdings, not just gold, but the wealthy have often expressed their wealth by using gold in their decorations, their furnishings, their vehicles, their adornments, etc., as gold is seen as the expression of wealth. When illuminated, Gold has a luster and sheen that expresses a sort of base glory that we may possess and in a base way make us imagine that we are more like God when we possess it. Worldly thinking expresses the idea that gold is god like in its incorruptibility (gold is so non reactive with most other elements that it doesn't typically corrode) and this is why James wrote about its corrosion in such a manner in his epistle. I think that its interesting that the thing which most men value more than anything else, God would have us walk upon in the New Jerusalem.
In the U.S. we've commonly had the motto "in God we trust" upon our currency for some time now, and I would assume that this was to suggest that the currency was not a replacement for God. Jesus said,
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:24, and He wouldn't have said such a thing if it weren't our natural tendency to go for the gold. The word mammon is sometimes translated as money, but it actually refers to money as personified, in other words as an idol that one puts their faith in. People can't control God, but they think that they can control money and that's probably where their problems start.