Sabbath-Keeping

Phoneman777 · Apr 20, 2015

zeke25 said:
Phoneman777,

I already told you in post #226 that you have no justification for saying the Law (which includes the Ten Commandments) was given to anyone other than those under Moses and their prodigy. We discussed that Dt 5:15, Ex 31:13, Ez 20:12, & Ne 9:13-14 prove that the basis upon which you build your heretical philosophy is faulty. You admitted that you had no Scriptural justification that could show or prove otherwise. So, until you repent of this heresy you preach, you will not understand any question or answer I give you.

Besides, why should I give you your answer. You have yet to answer, once again, any of my questions. Especially, what do you think of the Apostle Paul? Do you recommend that we follow his teachings or not? This has been a simple question placed on this forum multiple times and you and your groupies are avoiding answering it. Why is that?

Zeke25

Zeke, the reason you will not tell us we may freely break the Ten Commandments is that you know they existed before Sinai and will exist for all eternity, while the Law of Moses' municipal, judicial, and ceremonial provisions were nailed to the cross. It is you who must repent of your war against the Ten Commandments b/c "blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life and may enter into the gates into the city".

Axehead · Apr 20, 2015

My mistake. Wrong thread.

zeke25 · Apr 20, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
Zeke, the reason you will not tell us we may freely break the Ten Commandments is that you know they existed before Sinai and will exist for all eternity, while the Law of Moses' municipal, judicial, and ceremonial provisions were nailed to the cross. It is you who must repent of your war against the Ten Commandments b/c "blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life and may enter into the gates into the city".

Phoneman,

The reason you're not getting any answers from me is because you refuse to communicate both ways. If you answer my question about whether or not you recommend that we follow the teachings of Paul, then I'll answer one of yours.

In the meantime, all your speculation and false accusations are meaningless.

Zeke25

Phoneman777 · Apr 20, 2015

Axehead said:
What happened to the people of God in the OT that did not obey the Sabbath law? What happened to those who committed adultery?

Deu_22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Exo_35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.
Exo_35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Christianity is not about the 10 commandments and it has nothing to do with the law.

And have you ever heard of a law without penalties?

Christianity is about God's promise to "write My laws in their minds and on their hearts", which laws are the ones He wrote with His own finger in stone. The idea of a law with no penalties for its violation is absurd, for what's the point? Jesus didn't die to give us a license to keep on doing that which made necessary His death in the first place. If you love Jesus you won't break the first four and if you love your neighbor, you won't break the last six.

zeke25 said:
Phoneman,

The reason you're not getting any answers from me is because you refuse to communicate both ways. If you answer my question about whether or not you recommend that we follow the teachings of Paul, then I'll answer one of yours.

In the meantime, all your speculation and false accusations are meaningless.

Zeke25

What false accusations? Brother, if I've falsely accused you, I'm sorry.

zeke25 · Apr 20, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
Christianity is about God's promise to "write My laws in their minds and on their hearts", which laws are the ones He wrote with His own finger in stone. The idea of a law with no penalties for its violation is absurd, for what's the point? Jesus didn't die to give us a license to keep on doing that which made necessary His death in the first place. If you love Jesus you won't break the first four and if you love your neighbor, you won't break the last six.

What false accusations? Brother, if I've falsely accused you, I'm sorry.

Phoneman's latest false accusation to me: the reason you will not tell us we may freely break the Ten Commandments is that you know they existed before Sinai and will exist for all eternity

Zeke's reply: I will not engage in a one-way conversation. Answer my question and I'll answer one of yours.

Phoneman777 · Apr 20, 2015

zeke25 said:
Phoneman's latest false accusation to me: the reason you will not tell us we may freely break the Ten Commandments is that you know they existed before Sinai and will exist for all eternity

Zeke's reply: I will not engage in a one-way conversation. Answer my question and I'll answer one of yours.

Zeke, "sin" which is defined Biblically as "transgression of the law" was an option even before Cain killed his brother (Genesis 4:7 KJV) and murder and adultery were violations of a law that existed prior to Mount Sinai and will exist for all eternity. What other reason can there be for your refusal to man up and state for the record that we may freely disregard the rest of the Ten Commandments as you so emphatically state that we may forget the only one which begins with the word "Remember", unless you truly believe otherwise?

zeke25 · Apr 20, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
Zeke, "sin" which is defined Biblically as "transgression of the law" was an option even before Cain killed his brother (Genesis 4:7 KJV) and murder and adultery were violations of a law that existed prior to Mount Sinai and will exist for all eternity. What other reason can there be for your refusal to man up and state for the record that we may freely disregard the rest of the Ten Commandments as you so emphatically state that we may forget the only one which begins with the word "Remember", unless you truly believe otherwise?

Phoneman777,

You're pretty hard of hearing aren't you. You said, "What other reason can there be for your refusal to man up and state for the record that we may freely disregard the rest of the Ten Commandments".

I've given you my reason over and over. Answer my question and I'll answer one of yours. Do you recommend that we follow the teachings of the Apostle Paul?

zeke25

brakelite · Apr 20, 2015

zeke25 said:
Phoneman777,

You're pretty hard of hearing aren't you. You said, "What other reason can there be for your refusal to man up and state for the record that we may freely disregard the rest of the Ten Commandments".

I've given you my reason over and over. Answer my question and I'll answer one of yours. Do you recommend that we follow the teachings of the Apostle Paul?

zeke25

I'll fall for it Zeke...yes, we are to follow the teachings of Paul. The following is an example.
Inherent in antinomianism is the belief that man cannot overcome sin, therefore God is willing to tolerate sin in our lives until he changes us in the resurrection. Thus there is no need for the law, we are not under the law etc.
What a sad defeatist attitude there is in today's professed Christians, that they would gaze into the mirror and proclaim to the image gazing back at them..."you are too far gone...too evil...too weak...too sin bound...to ever think or believe that you could obey God's commandments. God does not have the power to change your life. His Holy Spirit, even though He promises He would abide and live within you, is not powerful enough to overcome your wicked sinful passions and lusts. He is not powerful enough to change your lifestyle, your habits, your evil tendencies...so don't bother to surrender your life to Him...what can He do? Just believe His promise of the good life after you die and in the meantime try not to get into too much trouble".

And the face that steers back at you from the mirror cowers in defeat and succumbs once again to Satan's lies...

However, there is another way. Paul didn't stop writing at Romans 7. In Romans 8 he declared that:

1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(now see why Christ condemned sin in the flesh....)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Question: How can anyone walking in the Spirit have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him and at the same time disobey the law and deem it a burden and hard labor and toil?????
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Those minding the things of the Spirit are minding the law...for the law is spiritual.
6 For to be carnally minded is death (why is it that to be carnally minded leads to death? Because the wages of sin is death); but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Note that the carnal mind is not subject to God's laws...the carnal mind cannot obey God...it is in fact at war with God)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(But note the very next word).....
9 But ....BUT....ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (Note this carefully.The born again Spirit filled believer in Christ is set in direct contradistinction to the carnal flesh minded unsaved unregenerated non-believer. The latter cannot obey God...but the former..what can He do??? Surely he can obey the law...he was even re-created for that very purpose!!!)

The creative power of God, the same power that created the universe and everything in it, and the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, you claim is not powerful enough to make such a change in your life that you cannot overcome sin???

Eph. 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Jesus was fully man, yet fully God. We cannot understand this, but this divine/human union we accept as Biblical fact do we not? Are we also , if truly born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, a union of the divine and human? If Jesus can overcome temptation, then by the grace and power of a living loving Savior who intercedes on our behalf in heaven so can we...if we believe. Stop looking at yourselves in the mirror and getting depressed because of what you see there...Satan is lying to you when you draw the conclusion that he who stares back at you is a sinful hopeless habit bound person, nor search for excuses for sin (not under the law). That person is dead in Christ!!! Look to Christ. Look away from yourselves and look to your example, and to the source of your power. For Him who created galaxies, it is not difficult for Him to recreate you in His image. To invest in you His character. The difficulty my friends lies not in His ability to do what He has promised, but the difficulty lies in your unbelief.
If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Axehead · Apr 20, 2015

brakelite said:
I'll fall for it Zeke...yes, we are to follow the teachings of Paul. The following is an example.
Inherent in antinomianism is the belief that man cannot overcome sin, therefore God is willing to tolerate sin in our lives until he changes us in the resurrection. Thus there is no need for the law, we are not under the law etc.
What a sad defeatist attitude there is in today's professed Christians, that they would gaze into the mirror and proclaim to the image gazing back at them..."you are too far gone...too evil...too weak...too sin bound...to ever think or believe that you could obey God's commandments. God does not have the power to change your life. His Holy Spirit, even though He promises He would abide and live within you, is not powerful enough to overcome your wicked sinful passions and lusts. He is not powerful enough to change your lifestyle, your habits, your evil tendencies...so don't bother to surrender your life to Him...what can He do? Just believe His promise of the good life after you die and in the meantime try not to get into too much trouble".

And the face that steers back at you from the mirror cowers in defeat and succumbs once again to Satan's lies...

However, there is another way. Paul didn't stop writing at Romans 7. In Romans 8 he declared that:

1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(now see why Christ condemned sin in the flesh....)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Question: How can anyone walking in the Spirit have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him and at the same time disobey the law and deem it a burden and hard labor and toil?????
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Those minding the things of the Spirit are minding the law...for the law is spiritual.
6 For to be carnally minded is death (why is it that to be carnally minded leads to death? Because the wages of sin is death); but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Note that the carnal mind is not subject to God's laws...the carnal mind cannot obey God...it is in fact at war with God)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(But note the very next word).....
9 But ....BUT....ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (Note this carefully.The born again Spirit filled believer in Christ is set in direct contradistinction to the carnal flesh minded unsaved unregenerated non-believer. The latter cannot obey God...but the former..what can He do??? Surely he can obey the law...he was even re-created for that very purpose!!!)

The creative power of God, the same power that created the universe and everything in it, and the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, you claim is not powerful enough to make such a change in your life that you cannot overcome sin???

Eph. 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Jesus was fully man, yet fully God. We cannot understand this, but this divine/human union we accept as Biblical fact do we not? Are we also , if truly born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, a union of the divine and human? If Jesus can overcome temptation, then by the grace and power of a living loving Savior who intercedes on our behalf in heaven so can we...if we believe. Stop looking at yourselves in the mirror and getting depressed because of what you see there...Satan is lying to you when you draw the conclusion that he who stares back at you is a sinful hopeless habit bound person, nor search for excuses for sin (not under the law). That person is dead in Christ!!! Look to Christ. Look away from yourselves and look to your example, and to the source of your power. For Him who created galaxies, it is not difficult for Him to recreate you in His image. To invest in you His character. The difficulty my friends lies not in His ability to do what He has promised, but the difficulty lies in your unbelief.
If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Oh my, you have fallen into a ditch, brother. It is really quite simple, but you have a created a complex theological system.

Romans_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

We were given the Spirit to "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This is how you fulfill the Royal Law:
James_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Paul and James are in agreement with Jesus.
Matt_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matt_22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matt_22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matt_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. <-- Simple and plain language. Not talking about the law, but loving one's neighbor.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Paul did not mention the "Remember the Sabbath", but that's ok, because the Holy Spirit through Paul says that IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.

THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW

brakelite · Apr 21, 2015

Axehead, I agree, love fulfils the law. Bearing one anothers burdens fulfils the law of Christ. Just like you said. So that deals with the last six commandments, through loving our neighbor we shall never kill him, sleep with his wife, covet his car, swear at him or lie about him. Yep, that's love. And that covers our obligations toward our neighbor.
What about God? What of our obligations toward Him? What about the first 4 Commandments? Same as above. If we love God we won't carve a statue and fall down and worship it. We won't put anything in our heart or life that places God in second place. Nor will we, if we truly love Him, take His name in vain. We will not in any sense take the holiness away from His name. And guess what. If we love Him neither will we forget His holy day, and take the holiness away from that.
1 John 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Axehead · Apr 21, 2015

Do you just want to cover your "obligations" with your neighbor? With the coming of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit, He asks us to go further than just our "obligations". To walk as Jesus walked. Now, you ask, "what about God"? Jesus covered that, too.

Matt_25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matt_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt_25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matt_25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matt_25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matt_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Are you getting an idea of what's important to Jesus Christ and why loving thy neighbour is the fulfilling of the law and the Royal Law of Christ? Matthew 25 is both loving your neighbour and loving God.

Jesus doesn't care about religion, rituals, sacrifice.

Matt_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Time to get back to Basics. The greatest 2 commandments.

What a different church world we would have if everyone got back to basics.

zeke25 · Apr 21, 2015

brakelite said:
I'll fall for it Zeke...yes, we are to follow the teachings of Paul.

brakelite,

This is not a trap. This is a seeking of transparency. Do you speak for Phoneman777? Are you both members of the same church?

Ellen G. White, do you think that her teachings are worthy of study and should we follow her lead?

zeke25

justaname · Apr 21, 2015

The teachings concerning Gentiles from the apostles as it is written in Scripture...

28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." - Acts 15:28-29

Our message concerning the Shabbot is this and has been from the beginning...we commend you if you desire to keep the Shabbot, yet this is not a command for the church to keep. If you teach we must keep the Shabbot in accordance with the Law, as you do, we will correct that false teaching, yet if you seek to honor God by keeping the Shabbot we will respect your desire.

We as the church are not under the Law, and the 10 commands are only a portion of the 613. Love obeys the Law without need of any rules...it was Jesus who was accused of breaking the Law, and especially the 4th command, yet it is written of Him...He always did what was pleasing to the Father. His love for the Father fulfilled the Law.

Phoneman777 · Apr 21, 2015

brakelite said:
I'll fall for it Zeke...yes, we are to follow the teachings of Paul. The following is an example.
Inherent in antinomianism is the belief that man cannot overcome sin, therefore God is willing to tolerate sin in our lives until he changes us in the resurrection. Thus there is no need for the law, we are not under the law etc.
What a sad defeatist attitude there is in today's professed Christians, that they would gaze into the mirror and proclaim to the image gazing back at them..."you are too far gone...too evil...too weak...too sin bound...to ever think or believe that you could obey God's commandments. God does not have the power to change your life. His Holy Spirit, even though He promises He would abide and live within you, is not powerful enough to overcome your wicked sinful passions and lusts. He is not powerful enough to change your lifestyle, your habits, your evil tendencies...so don't bother to surrender your life to Him...what can He do? Just believe His promise of the good life after you die and in the meantime try not to get into too much trouble".

And the face that steers back at you from the mirror cowers in defeat and succumbs once again to Satan's lies...

However, there is another way. Paul didn't stop writing at Romans 7. In Romans 8 he declared that:

1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(now see why Christ condemned sin in the flesh....)
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Question: How can anyone walking in the Spirit have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him and at the same time disobey the law and deem it a burden and hard labor and toil?????
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Those minding the things of the Spirit are minding the law...for the law is spiritual.
6 For to be carnally minded is death (why is it that to be carnally minded leads to death? Because the wages of sin is death); but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Note that the carnal mind is not subject to God's laws...the carnal mind cannot obey God...it is in fact at war with God)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(But note the very next word).....
9 But ....BUT....ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (Note this carefully.The born again Spirit filled believer in Christ is set in direct contradistinction to the carnal flesh minded unsaved unregenerated non-believer. The latter cannot obey God...but the former..what can He do??? Surely he can obey the law...he was even re-created for that very purpose!!!)

The creative power of God, the same power that created the universe and everything in it, and the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, you claim is not powerful enough to make such a change in your life that you cannot overcome sin???

Eph. 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Jesus was fully man, yet fully God. We cannot understand this, but this divine/human union we accept as Biblical fact do we not? Are we also , if truly born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, a union of the divine and human? If Jesus can overcome temptation, then by the grace and power of a living loving Savior who intercedes on our behalf in heaven so can we...if we believe. Stop looking at yourselves in the mirror and getting depressed because of what you see there...Satan is lying to you when you draw the conclusion that he who stares back at you is a sinful hopeless habit bound person, nor search for excuses for sin (not under the law). That person is dead in Christ!!! Look to Christ. Look away from yourselves and look to your example, and to the source of your power. For Him who created galaxies, it is not difficult for Him to recreate you in His image. To invest in you His character. The difficulty my friends lies not in His ability to do what He has promised, but the difficulty lies in your unbelief.
If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

There's nothing more comical than for a Christian to call himself an "overcomer of sin" and "more than a conqueror of sin" and a "victor over sin" while continuing in the same old slavish servitude to his former, current, and future master, SIN, while claiming to be a servant of the Most High God.

Axehead said:
Oh my, you have fallen into a ditch, brother. It is really quite simple, but you have a created a complex theological system.

Romans_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

We were given the Spirit to "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This is how you fulfill the Royal Law:
James_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Paul and James are in agreement with Jesus.
Matt_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matt_22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matt_22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matt_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. <-- Simple and plain language. Not talking about the law, but loving one's neighbor.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Paul did not mention the "Remember the Sabbath", but that's ok, because the Holy Spirit through Paul says that IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.

THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW

"Briefly comprehended" and "summed up" do not mean "done away with". Replacing spark plugs, fuel, oil, and air filters, and changing the oil is "briefly comprehended" and "summed up" as "ENGINE TUNE UP". "ENGINE TUNE UP" does not do away with any of the maintenance procedures, just as "Love thy neighbor as thyself" doesn't do away with "don't steal", "don't lie" and "don't worship other gods before God".

zeke25 said:
brakelite,

This is not a trap. This is a seeking of transparency. Do you speak for Phoneman777? Are you both members of the same church?

Ellen G. White, do you think that her teachings are worthy of study and should we follow her lead?

zeke25

Zeke, any coward can keep silent but it takes a courage to state one's position. Will you join me in my declaration that grace-saved Christians are under obligation to obey God's Ten Commandments both in letter an in Spirit by the indwelling power of the same Spirit "which is our reasonable service", or will you openly declare that we are as free to break all other nine commandments as we are to break the fourth commandment?

BTW, are you aware that there are many denominations other than Seven Day Adventist that believe we should keep the seventh day Sabbath? Did you know that there are Sabbath keepers who don't even belong to a denomination? Let's focus on Scripture, not denominational affiliation.

justaname said:
The teachings concerning Gentiles from the apostles as it is written in Scripture...

28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." - Acts 15:28-29

Our message concerning the Shabbot is this and has been from the beginning...we commend you if you desire to keep the Shabbot, yet this is not a command for the church to keep. If you teach we must keep the Shabbot in accordance with the Law, as you do, we will correct that false teaching, yet if you seek to honor God by keeping the Shabbot we will respect your desire.

We as the church are not under the Law, and the 10 commands are only a portion of the 613. Love obeys the Law without need of any rules...it was Jesus who was accused of breaking the Law, and especially the 4th command, yet it is written of Him...He always did what was pleasing to the Father. His love for the Father fulfilled the Law.

So, the Sabbath was created in Eden, was kept in the OT, was kept in the NT, and throughout church history until Rome successfully banished it, and in the new heaven and the new earth we'll all come before Jesus to worship Him every Sabbath, but somehow the church is not obligated to obey it? Many would argue that the Dispensationalism you subscribe to is false teaching (after all, it was unknown until the middle of the 19th century), while early to middle church history is replete with seventh day Sabbath keeping.

Axehead · Apr 21, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
"Briefly comprehended" and "summed up" do not mean "done away with". Replacing spark plugs, fuel, oil, and air filters, and changing the oil is "briefly comprehended" and "summed up" as "ENGINE TUNE UP". "ENGINE TUNE UP" does not do away with any of the maintenance procedures, just as "Love thy neighbor as thyself" doesn't do away with "don't steal", "don't lie" and "don't worship other gods before God".

Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength will take care of "don't worship other gods before God"

Never heard of loving thy neighbor as thyself and stealing from them or lying to them. Doesn't sound like love to me. My Bible says, Love worketh no ill to his neighbor. What does your Bible say?
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

zeke25 · Apr 22, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
So, the Sabbath was created in Eden, was kept in the OT, was kept in the NT, and throughout church history

phoneman777,

Psalm 50:16-17 KJV, “16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? 17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee."

brakelite · Apr 22, 2015

Axehead said:
Do you just want to cover your "obligations" with your neighbor? With the coming of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit, He asks us to go further than just our "obligations". To walk as Jesus walked. Now, you ask, "what about God"? Jesus covered that, too.

Matt_25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matt_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt_25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matt_25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matt_25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matt_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Are you getting an idea of what's important to Jesus Christ and why loving thy neighbour is the fulfilling of the law and the Royal Law of Christ? Matthew 25 is both loving your neighbour and loving God.

Jesus doesn't care about religion, rituals, sacrifice.

Matt_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Time to get back to Basics. The greatest 2 commandments.

What a different church world we would have if everyone got back to basics.

Axehead. It is all very well to exalt love, mercy, to do justly etc, for this is indeed the crux of religious life in Christ. But please note when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for lacking in those virtues while they were claiming to be righteous because they considered themselves law-keepers par-excellence....
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, (and no doubt could have added keep Sabbath, sacrifice countless lambs, pray 3 times a day, etc etc) and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I agree wholeheartedly with you in your stressing love. I couldn't agree more. It is the whole focus of what we all as children of God ought to be doing...exemplifying that very facet of God's character that the world needs so much of....love.But please Axehead, do not ignore the many texts that link love with obedience. In fact, obedience without love is futile, and love without obedience is impossible. The question we must all honestly ask ourselves is this....did the apostles or the early church teach that the weekly Sabbath (as opposed to the yearly feasts) was no longer part and parcel of religious worship? Honestly now. Did they? Did they truly teach and take up Sunday as their day of worship? Did they truly teach and consider Jesus' spiritual rest as a replacement for weekly physical rest on the 7th day? Or did they as the Biblical account testifies to and as history confirms, not only to 'rest in Christ', but also, (not leaving the other undone) continue to observe the Sabbath not just throughout the lives of the apostles, but for centuries after the last apostle died?

zeke25 said:
brakelite,

This is not a trap. This is a seeking of transparency. Do you speak for Phoneman777? Are you both members of the same church?

Ellen G. White, do you think that her teachings are worthy of study and should we follow her lead?

zeke25

Zeke, I do not know what church Phoneman777 is affiliated to. No, I don't speak for him...I thought the question you asked about Paul was a general question to all who are contributing to the thread. Sorry if I interjected inappropriately.
No, I do not think E G White's writings are worthy of study. But worthwhile reading, yes. The Bible and the Bible only is worthy of study. Should you follow E G White's lead? No. Not unless you are a Seventh Day Adventist.

Now that is dealt with, care to address the actual post I made, or is it too hard to understand such spiritual matters and challenges as to church affiliation is your only "out"?

justaname said:
The teachings concerning Gentiles from the apostles as it is written in Scripture...

28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." - Acts 15:28-29

Our message concerning the Shabbot is this and has been from the beginning...we commend you if you desire to keep the Shabbot, yet this is not a command for the church to keep. If you teach we must keep the Shabbot in accordance with the Law, as you do, we will correct that false teaching, yet if you seek to honor God by keeping the Shabbot we will respect your desire.

We as the church are not under the Law, and the 10 commands are only a portion of the 613. Love obeys the Law without need of any rules...it was Jesus who was accused of breaking the Law, and especially the 4th command, yet it is written of Him...He always did what was pleasing to the Father. His love for the Father fulfilled the Law.

I appreciate the stand taken by the forum administration, and I have no protest as to your rights to do whatever according to conscience, as I recognize is everyone's right, though I may disagree with your conclusions on the scriptures re Sabbath keeping. I also appreciate the freedom the admin of this forum allows such as I to discuss and raise these issues without too much interference...other forums do not allow such freedoms and such discussions as we are partaking in now (and also the 'eternal torment' thread and others) and close down the threads. I believe it is important to openly discuss these issues.
My contention is that the 4th commandment is for the church, every bit as much as the 6th or 7th commandments. That the ten commandments were not 'nailed to the cross' as many contend, and were not included in the 'handwriting of ordinances' that were. Nor do I believe that the weekly Sabbath was met in an antitype/type situation as were the annual Sabbaths such as passover, feast of firstfruits, pentecost etc. The Ten Commandments are God's laws written with His own finger on stone and given as God's minimum standard of holiness for His people. The subsequent law of Moses (the religious laws pertaining to the sanctuary services etc) was given as a solution to the transgressions of God's law. Other sections of the law of Moses dealt with civil laws for the establishment of the nation Israel, and health laws for their wellbeing.
What concerns me is the repeated assertions by such as yourself and others, that Sabbath keeping is a burden. That keeping such a day of rest is somehow a bondage. I suggest you read Exodus 20 again. the very first line says, "I am the Lord thy God that brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." This removal on God's part of Israel from Egypt has for centuries been recognized as a type of the Christians release from sin. What kind of God would it be that He would save Israel from slavery and bondage in Egypt, to bring them into another kind of bondage with His laws? Sinai was the very next step after Egypt. Israel could not proceed into Canaan until they passed Sinai. The law was not given as a hindrance or bondage or form of burden, but was given as a help, they were promises, they were God's solution to Israel's future happiness. It is the same for the Christian. After conversion from sin, from bondage to sin and addiction and slavery to the devil, God, in the born again believer, places His laws in the hearts and minds, not as a form of bondage or burden or slavery, but the only true way to man's happiness and peace on his way to the heavenly Canaan.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Phoneman777 · Apr 22, 2015

Axehead said:
Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength will take care of "don't worship other gods before God"

Never heard of loving thy neighbor as thyself and stealing from them or lying to them. Doesn't sound like love to me. My Bible says, Love worketh no ill to his neighbor. What does your Bible say?
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So, have you ever heard loving thy neighbor as thyself and sleeping with his wife, killing him, coveting his stuff, or dishonoring ones parents?

zeke25 said:
phoneman777,

Psalm 50:16-17 KJV, “16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? 17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee."

Though millions of devout, courageous Christian men, women and children were willing to suffer the death penalty by publicly denying that the wafer of bread held out before them as they knelt bound before some misguided Papist Inquisitor was the actual, literal "body of Christ", yet you still can't muster a minuscule fraction of that courage to publicly state for the record in an online discussion forum whether or not you believe we may freely break the rest of the Ten Commandments as freely as you claim we may break the Sabbath commandment?

justaname · Apr 22, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
There's nothing more comical than for a Christian to call himself an "overcomer of sin" and "more than a conqueror of sin" and a "victor over sin" while continuing in the same old slavish servitude to his former, current, and future master, SIN, while claiming to be a servant of the Most High God.

"Briefly comprehended" and "summed up" do not mean "done away with". Replacing spark plugs, fuel, oil, and air filters, and changing the oil is "briefly comprehended" and "summed up" as "ENGINE TUNE UP". "ENGINE TUNE UP" does not do away with any of the maintenance procedures, just as "Love thy neighbor as thyself" doesn't do away with "don't steal", "don't lie" and "don't worship other gods before God".

Zeke, any coward can keep silent but it takes a courage to state one's position. Will you join me in my declaration that grace-saved Christians are under obligation to obey God's Ten Commandments both in letter an in Spirit by the indwelling power of the same Spirit "which is our reasonable service", or will you openly declare that we are as free to break all other nine commandments as we are to break the fourth commandment?

BTW, are you aware that there are many denominations other than Seven Day Adventist that believe we should keep the seventh day Sabbath? Did you know that there are Sabbath keepers who don't even belong to a denomination? Let's focus on Scripture, not denominational affiliation.

So, the Sabbath was created in Eden, was kept in the OT, was kept in the NT, and throughout church history until Rome successfully banished it, and in the new heaven and the new earth we'll all come before Jesus to worship Him every Sabbath, but somehow the church is not obligated to obey it? Many would argue that the Dispensationalism you subscribe to is false teaching (after all, it was unknown until the middle of the 19th century), while early to middle church history is replete with seventh day Sabbath keeping.

The Shabbot was given to Moses and was kept by some in the church, mostly by those of Jewish decent for their own cultural purposes, not as an obligation to the Law. In heaven God is worshipped continually, not only once a week. Dispensationalism is presented by Peter and Stephen in the book of Acts. (Which is not the subject at hand) I argue the church left these views when the majority of the congregations were Gentile.

brakelite said:
Axehead. It is all very well to exalt love, mercy, to do justly etc, for this is indeed the crux of religious life in Christ. But please note when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for lacking in those virtues while they were claiming to be righteous because they considered themselves law-keepers par-excellence....
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, (and no doubt could have added keep Sabbath, sacrifice countless lambs, pray 3 times a day, etc etc) and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I agree wholeheartedly with you in your stressing love. I couldn't agree more. It is the whole focus of what we all as children of God ought to be doing...exemplifying that very facet of God's character that the world needs so much of....love.But please Axehead, do not ignore the many texts that link love with obedience. In fact, obedience without love is futile, and love without obedience is impossible. The question we must all honestly ask ourselves is this....did the apostles or the early church teach that the weekly Sabbath (as opposed to the yearly feasts) was no longer part and parcel of religious worship? Honestly now. Did they? Did they truly teach and take up Sunday as their day of worship? Did they truly teach and consider Jesus' spiritual rest as a replacement for weekly physical rest on the 7th day? Or did they as the Biblical account testifies to and as history confirms, not only to 'rest in Christ', but also, (not leaving the other undone) continue to observe the Sabbath not just throughout the lives of the apostles, but for centuries after the last apostle died?

Zeke, I do not know what church Phoneman777 is affiliated to. No, I don't speak for him...I thought the question you asked about Paul was a general question to all who are contributing to the thread. Sorry if I interjected inappropriately.
No, I do not think E G White's writings are worthy of study. But worthwhile reading, yes. The Bible and the Bible only is worthy of study. Should you follow E G White's lead? No. Not unless you are a Seventh Day Adventist.

Now that is dealt with, care to address the actual post I made, or is it too hard to understand such spiritual matters and challenges as to church affiliation is your only "out"?

I appreciate the stand taken by the forum administration, and I have no protest as to your rights to do whatever according to conscience, as I recognize is everyone's right, though I may disagree with your conclusions on the scriptures re Sabbath keeping. I also appreciate the freedom the admin of this forum allows such as I to discuss and raise these issues without too much interference...other forums do not allow such freedoms and such discussions as we are partaking in now (and also the 'eternal torment' thread and others) and close down the threads. I believe it is important to openly discuss these issues.
My contention is that the 4th commandment is for the church, every bit as much as the 6th or 7th commandments. That the ten commandments were not 'nailed to the cross' as many contend, and were not included in the 'handwriting of ordinances' that were. Nor do I believe that the weekly Sabbath was met in an antitype/type situation as were the annual Sabbaths such as passover, feast of firstfruits, pentecost etc. The Ten Commandments are God's laws written with His own finger on stone and given as God's minimum standard of holiness for His people. The subsequent law of Moses (the religious laws pertaining to the sanctuary services etc) was given as a solution to the transgressions of God's law. Other sections of the law of Moses dealt with civil laws for the establishment of the nation Israel, and health laws for their wellbeing.
What concerns me is the repeated assertions by such as yourself and others, that Sabbath keeping is a burden. That keeping such a day of rest is somehow a bondage. I suggest you read Exodus 20 again. the very first line says, "I am the Lord thy God that brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." This removal on God's part of Israel from Egypt has for centuries been recognized as a type of the Christians release from sin. What kind of God would it be that He would save Israel from slavery and bondage in Egypt, to bring them into another kind of bondage with His laws? Sinai was the very next step after Egypt. Israel could not proceed into Canaan until they passed Sinai. The law was not given as a hindrance or bondage or form of burden, but was given as a help, they were promises, they were God's solution to Israel's future happiness. It is the same for the Christian. After conversion from sin, from bondage to sin and addiction and slavery to the devil, God, in the born again believer, places His laws in the hearts and minds, not as a form of bondage or burden or slavery, but the only true way to man's happiness and peace on his way to the heavenly Canaan.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Firstly I am posting as a member, not a Moderator...

Our concern is you teach we are still under the Law. Address the post of mine directly concerning the council in Acts...

To quote Peter concerning the Law...

Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? - Acts 15:10

And concerning the teaching to the Gentiles from the council...

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: - Acts 15:28

Very direct conclusion here...no mention of the Shabbot, no mention of the 10 within the Law. What is mentioned is blood, food strangled, food sacrificed to idols, and sexual immorality...all of these have to do with the pagan culture and practices. All of these would be very offensive to fulfilled Jews (Christians from a Jewish background). Be assured this would not set aside any moral obligation to God or neighbor as this teaching (love God and others) is intrinsic to the gospel message as seen through almost every epistle in our current cannon of Scripture.. Even within this command from the council, love for the neighbor is the driving force.

Scripture itself references a burden. When the word yoke is used, it is understood a burden follows. Jesus describes His yoke as light, and His burden easy. We are obligated to God not the Law. Through faith and love our Master is able to make us stand.

Axehead · Apr 22, 2015

The Lord does write His laws in our hearts and those laws are the Law of Christ which is love. It is not the Mosaic law or the 10 commandments. And since the laws written in our hearts are love for the Lord and for our neighbor, they go further than the laws written on stone. A man filled with the Holy Spirit knows not to commit adultery, but even more not to fantasize about it in his heart (lust). Same with murder, a Christian also knows not to hate another in his heart. This is much more in line with real love than just obeying writings in stone. God wants to take out the stony heart of law keepers where they only fulfill the outward obligation of the law but inwardly they are breaking the Law of Christ (because it has not been written on their heart). They have not been given a new heart. Regarding the Sabbath, we have shown numerous times that Jesus Christ is now our Sabbath rest. He is the DAY, today. And we rest in Him and observe Him everyday. True rest is spiritual not physical. As a New Testament believer you should know that the emphasis today is on the heart and it's motivations.

Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Jesus Christ Himself told us that His Father is always working and so is He. Working, yet resting in His Father's love. Likewise, the Christian can work, yet rest in Christ. We can observe the True Sabbath everyday.

The Lord does make provision for those who like to honor "special" days for themselves. There is no condemnation to any Christian who wants to honor a day or treat every day alike (Romans 14).

But there is no provision from the Lord or the Apostles to bring others under the OT law. Jesus is the "end of the law" to everyone that believeth and it should be clear to you why. Jesus Christ went further than anyone under the law could ever go. And now, with His Spirit we are called to the same higher law of Christ. Under the old law, you were condemned if you broke any part of it and for the person that wants to put himself under the OT law, he will be judged by it and the penalties have not gone away for anyone that puts them self under the law.

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