Sabbath-Keeping

Phoneman777 · May 15, 2015

UppsalaDragby said:
Phoneman777, I am appealing to you to be HONEST here!

If I hadn't presented any contradictions here, then you would easily have gone through my list of questions one by one and deal with them in the same way that I have dealt with SDA arguments - using scripture. You choose, once again, NOT to do so, preferring to make a sweeping statemant that you DON'T back up with scripture.

So where are the scriptures that proves that Christians are obligated to keep the 10 commandments?

And where are the scriptures that show that I am presenting contradictions?

There are none!

That we are obligated to keep a moral standard that is in keeping with the law of Christ, which covers and totally fulfills the complete demands of Mosaic law is one thing, but that in no way equates to being under a law that scripture explicitly teaches us that we are no longer under.

If your point is that the Law of Christ does not fulfill the law of Moses, then please provide scripture that teaches us that. If not they explain what the Law of Christ lacks. No one who takes the Law of Christ seriosly claims that we are free to lie, cheat, murder and steal, so the SDA's favorite arguments all fail in one easy sweep. So try to figure out something else that you think might work!

Oh yeah... just as I pointed out. The famous string of SDA strawmen that you cannot defend. No one is trying to "shut you up". What I am trying to do is the exact opposite - to get you to respong appropriately - where appropriately in this case is with scripture.

Where is it Phoneman????

Since you ignored my questions, here they are once again:

Do you have any response to my previous post?

Does anyone?

Why, when scripture explicitly teaches us that the Sabbath commandment was NOT known, or given, to anyone other than those at Sinai, do you insist the opposite???

Why, when I have dealt with each and every argument that sabbatarians have posted here, are mine being ignored?

Why, when scripture warns us agiant adding to scripture, do sabbatarians repeatedly do so, without heeding to any warning given to them?

Why, when scripture teaches us that those who are saved and who follow the spirit are no longer under the law, do sabbatarians teach the opposite?

Why is no one adressing this?

Scripture teaches us that the old covenant is obsolete for us.

Why is no one adressing that?

Why are there no sabbatarians around here, or anywhere else I have seen, that can meet the challenges I have made?

Why, when scripture teaches us that the law was not made for the righteous but for those who resist the gospel, do sabbatarians stubbornly insist that it appies to us?

Why, when scripture teaches us that the ministry of the 10 commandments brings death and condemnation - which stands in total opposition to the gospel message, which teaches us that there is NO condemnation and NO death for those who are in Christ, stubbornly insist that we still need to listen to such a ministry?

Please stop being evasive and answer the questions!

What strawman? Oh foolish UppDrag, who hath bewitched you into believing that we are no longer obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but are not at liberty to break them? Can a woman be simultaneously "pregnant' and "not pregnant"?
Either publicly declare that we may freely break the Ten Commandments or stop claiming that they no longer apply to Christians.

zeke25 said:
Phoneguy,
The only one worshipping a false god here is you. The Torah is not a god.

2 Corinthians 3:7 KJV, “But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”

2 Corinthians 3:8 KJV, “How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?”

2 Corinthians 3:9 KJV, “For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.”

"The Spirit" written in 2 Co 3:8 is a reference to the Holy Spirit, Who is God. You fail to fear God and worship Him. Instead, you worship and serve a false god - the Torah.

You worship a schoolmaster, which is no god at all.

Galatians 3:24-25 KJV, "24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Any worship you falsely claim to give to the One True God is in vain, because you teach the commandments of men.

Matthew 15:9 KJV, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

You worship false gods. You are no different than the Hebrews. They worshipped an ephod, a brazen serpent, and a golden calf. You worship the same sort of thing, you worship a stone with graven images imbedded into it by the finger of God.

1. Do you worship an ephod? The Hebrews did as told in Judges 8:27 KJV, "And Gideon made an ephod thereof, and put it in his city, even in Ophrah: and all Israel went thither a whoring after it: which thing became a snare unto Gideon, and to his house." Do you worship a brazen serpent? The Hebrews did as told in 2 Kings 18:4 KJV, "He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan." These things were worshipped because leaders, appointed by God, made these items for a specific spiritual purpose, but then the Hebrews wanted something physical instead.

2. Do you worship a golden calf? The Hebrews did as told in Exodus 32:3-5 KJV, "3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. 4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to [Yahowah]." Aaron, their high priest, the first high priest of the sons of Israel, even made this golden calf to worship and gave credit to the only real God, Yahowah. He led these people to dance and play around this calf. He was mixing two religions and obviously felt he was doing Israel and God a service. This is what people are still doing today. They are mixing two religions - the gospel of man and the gospel of God - and they think they are doing God a service.

Phoneguy, you cannot understand these things because you have not the Spirit of the Living God. You have only the brainwashing you have received from the hands of fallen men (and woman). You preach the gospel of man, not the gospel of God. Repent, and turn to God Almighty and His Son.

Zeke25

Zeke, if you insist on questioning the salvation of others, eventually a moderator will ban you for this continued violation of forum rules. Antichrist "takes the place of Christ" which includes the judgement seat which belongs to Him (2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV), and it is that same spirit which leads one to set himself up as a judge over others. Didn't the Protestant Reformation teach you anything?

I marvel at how boldly you set yourself down in that judgment seat, but so cowardly refuse to publicly declare that Christians may freely break the same Ten Commandments that yo claim no longer apply to them.

brakelite · May 15, 2015

To all contributors, readers, of this thread, whether Sabbath keepers or not,

Happy Sabbath!!!!!!!!!!!!

zeke25 · May 15, 2015

Phoneman777 said:
What strawman? Oh foolish UppDrag, who hath bewitched you into believing that we are no longer obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but are not at liberty to break them? Can a woman be simultaneously "pregnant' and "not pregnant"?
Either publicly declare that we may freely break the Ten Commandments or stop claiming that they no longer apply to Christians.

Zeke, if you insist on questioning the salvation of others, eventually a moderator will ban you for this continued violation of forum rules. Antichrist "takes the place of Christ" which includes the judgement seat which belongs to Him (2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV), and it is that same spirit which leads one to set himself up as a judge over others. Didn't the Protestant Reformation teach you anything?

I marvel at how boldly you set yourself down in that judgment seat, but so cowardly refuse to publicly declare that Christians may freely break the same Ten Commandments that yo claim no longer apply to them.

Phoneguy,

It is not I that condemns you. The Scriptures are your judge, not me. And you have failed to answer even one Scripture. What a coward. You insult, call into question others' salvation, lie, and expose yourself as biblically illiterate, then you cry like a stuck pig when a Scripture condemns your theology. Stop being a coward, as you like to accuse others, and answer the Scriptures. Tell us why they do not condemn your theology.

Why do you say I “insist on calling into the question the salvation of others”? What statement are you referring to? Was it my statement “you have not the Spirit of the Living God”? Many call themselves Christian that do not even believe in the Holy Ghost. It is even biblical.

Acts 19:3 KJV, “He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”

So, “have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed”?

Obviously, Paul detected something amiss, or he wouldn’t have asked the question.

Zeke25

UppsalaDragby · May 15, 2015

brakelite said:
I did Uppsala give a scriptural answer to your challenges, which you chose to reject. But that's fine, you are free to accept or reject God's word as you see fit. (I speak to that discussion we had re being 'under the law'. Your unscriptural answer was to the effect that God's Ten Commandments are not 'moral'. )

What????

Where did I claim anything like that?

Please don't invent things and then claim they are evidence that what I say is unscriptural. If you have a point, please don't twist things around as you please. Use the quote-boxes - that's what they are there for!! And if you gave a "scriptural" answer - where scriptural neither adds, nor contradicts, nor breaks scripture in any way - then please, again, use the quote-boxes rather than just claim that you have done so!

Now to your above assertion that God commandments do not apply to the Christian, or that the Christian is not obligated to obey the commandment (for example) "thou shalt not commit adultery". Now you would claim that those commandments only apply to those at Mt Sinai, because it was to them that they were given. Tell me then, to whom does the following apply?
Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

That verse applies to everyone! That is why the word Jesus uses here is "whosoever"!

However, and this is important, what law is being broken depends on what Covenant one is under! Now if you want to maintain that commmitting adultery does not break the Law of Christ, leaving the only alternative to be the law of Moses, then please, once again, use scripture to prove that.

You claim that your arguments are being ignored, while you deem it appropriate to ignore that 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Where, exactly, have I ignored 2 Tim 3:16?? I agree entirely with that verse, and if you can find anything in my posts that doesn't agree with it.. well... you know exactly what to do, don't you... So don't be dishontest, and don't invent false arguments!

Please can you tell us what the moral standard is and where did you get it from?

Isn't that obvious??? Or are you trying to imply that the Law of Christ isn't a moral standard?

Phoneman777 said:
What strawman? Oh foolish UppDrag, who hath bewitched you into believing that we are no longer obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but are not at liberty to break them? Can a woman be simultaneously "pregnant' and "not pregnant"?
Either publicly declare that we may freely break the Ten Commandments or stop claiming that they no longer apply to Christians.

Please stop being evasive and answer the questions!

And if you think that I am advocating that we are free to break the 10 commandments, then the "strawman" is obvious!

And does anyone else see the complete irony here? SDAs and sabbatarians try desparately to give us the impression that they are keeping the 4th commandment, and yet don't seem to care the slightest whether or not they are keeping the 9th!

brakelite · May 15, 2015

UppsalaDragby said:
What????

Where did I claim anything like that?

Please don't invent things and then claim they are evidence that what I say is unscriptural. If you have a point, please don't twist things around as you please. Use the quote-boxes - that's what they are there for!! And if you gave a "scriptural" answer - where scriptural neither adds, nor contradicts, nor breaks scripture in any way - then please, again, use the quote-boxes rather than just claim that you have done so!

Here is a direct scriptural answer to your constant demands that "we Sabbatarians or SDAs" should do this, showing that it has been done, but rejected .

Your response is somewhat typical of those who persist in the idea that being not 'under the law' equates with freedom from any obligation to obey it. The following however is a direct refutation of that idea. Read the following passage carefully and see if you can detect who it is precisely the class of people who are 'under the law'.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So, here are the principle points as I see it from the above passage.

We as Christians must walk in the Spirit if we are to inherit eternal life.
Walking in the flesh is set in contradistinction to walking in the Spirit, with opposite results.
The works of the flesh shown, many of which are direct transgressions against God's Ten Commandments, with the remainder offshoots of the same, are all sin.
Those that walk in the flesh do not inherit the kingdom of God.
It is those who live according to the flesh, the ones who transgress God's commandments among other things, the ones who live in sin, that are under the law (Verse 18.
Therefore being 'under the law' does not mean as commonly believed, that is those who choose to obey the commandments, but on the contrary, being 'under the law' applies directly to those who choose to disobey the commandments. (See also Romans 8:7)
Thus repeating the assertion that you 'are not under the law' as an excuse for not observing the Sabbath is in fact a contradiction in terms. It is in fact those who choose not to observe Sabbath that are 'under the law'....for they stand as lawbreakers...transgressors.

You may reply that Sabbath breaking isn't listed in the above passage, therefore is exempt. Much like those who ridiculously cite the Jerusalem council's short list of advice to the Gentile believers as reason for ignoring the Sabbath. In the above passage there is a category under which all excuses for Sabbath breaking could be listed. Heresies.

Now in the top quote you said that you had said nothing to suggest that the Ten Commandments were not moral. Allow me to quote again yourself and my subsequent responses, and let the readers take note who is quoting scripture, who is 'adding' to scripture, which you constantly charge us with, yet the real guilt lies with you.

Brakelite, I assure you that I have read those verses very carefully. But what you are doing here is confusing morality with law. And as I have repeatedly pointed out, morality is not the fruit of being under a written code of law.
I am confused? Of course morality isn't a fruit of being 'under the law'! I am agreeing with Paul who says that very thing. . Paul said that those "under the law" are those who practice those sins (among others no doubt). Some of them are specific commandment breaking. Sin is transgression against the law. Being 'under the law' has nothing to do with new/old covenants. It has everything to do with whether one is under condemnation. That is why Paul set grace as being its opposite. (Romans 6:15) Therefore it is quite ironic, even illogical Biblically, to claim that those choosing to keep the Sabbath are 'under the law'.

If it was then the Jews, who were under that law, would not have crucified their Messiah. I have also pointed out something you need to consider carefully. We are not "lawless" as many SDAs seem to accuse us of being. We are under the law of Christ - a law that is "not like" the Covenant he made with the Jews.
The law of Christ is expressed in a number of different ways. "bearing others' burdens'....doing unto others as you would have them do to you....Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Notice....the golden rule we call it....Jesus says this is the law and the prophets. He did not say that the law is superceded by the law of Christ...but rather it IS the law.

Thus my friend UD, the law of Christ , the love commandments, the Ten Commandments given at Sinai, all express the very same thing, and all are therefore to be obeyed!
Now like I said, what makes the NT different from the OT is not the law, for the law in both testaments apart from the ceremonial, remains the same. What changes is how we are to obey.
Now let me quote again from a previous post, which you seem to claim is a lie, because you continue to argue against it.

What it clearly does do (the law) is present God's standard of righteousness. Righteousness that must come to us by faith. Righteousness that comes by the grace of God, not our own efforts, not through striving, but by the power of God in the life of the individual through the presence of the Holy Spirit infusing the love of God to and through the one who believes. I have said this on numerous occasions, it is how I live, it is how I survive, it is what I teach, it is the gospel. I do not know how clearer I can put it.

I will add this question: how safe will heaven be from a repeat of sinful history if the hearts and minds of men are not changed? Justification is to be accounted righteous. Sanctification is to be made righteous. Made righteous surely to the same standard of righteousness to which we are justified. Now as has been said many times, we are not justified by the works of the law, but by faith. But we are justified to the standard of righteousness which the law reveals. Anything less and we are lost. It is the whole law and the obligation of mankind to obey it but failed, which resulted in Calvary. The Ten Commandments were not given to Israel because God was grumpy with them as you said, (for goodness sake, God had just gone to great lengths to prove His faithfulness to them by releasing them from slavery, not to place them under another bondage of law-keeping, but to empower them to lift up their ungodly standards to His) but to reveal to them His own holy standard of righteousness...a standard He knew they could not attain to on their own, but not in any sense lessened their obligation. Israel failed, because they did not see grace in the law. Let me remind you that grace, mercy, justification by faith, without the law are OT and NT concepts. They did not recognize where God was able and willing to give them all the help necessary to salvation.
The NT changed that. The law remains the same, but the means by which we are to obey has been changed forever. No longer are we to promise to obey, but rather on the contrary, through the infilling of the Spirit of God we are to accept God's promises that He will make us a holy royal priesthood, living the life of the Life-giver, being sanctified daily to the same level of righteousness to which we are accounted in the sight of a loving faithful gracious merciful Father. The law of Christ to which you refer so often is that very vehicle by which we are made holy. The infusion of God's love and power enables us to do all that is required to meet His standards. And let me add one thing more, obedience to God in all things is a moral absolute.

UppsalaDragby said:
However, and this is important, what law is being broken depends on what Covenant one is under! Now if you want to maintain that commmitting adultery does not break the Law of Christ, leaving the only alternative to be the law of Moses, then please, once again, use scripture to prove that.

Both laws are broken when one commits adultery UD. BOTH! Christ did not give a law against adultery to Israel, but not intend that gentiles need not be obliged to stay faithful to their wives. Remember Joseph? How he ran away from Potiphar's wife rather than commit adultery? What did he say the reason for his fear of doing so?
......how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? Genesis 39:9 Joseph knew adultery was wrong...he knew it was a sin against God. The law which confirmed this at Sinai was not new!
Same with the Sabbath. The Sabbath that was introduced to Israel in Exodus 16 was not new. In verse 27, we are told...and it came to pass that there went out some of the people on the 7th day for to gather, and they found none. And the Lord said, how long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
This incident UD was 3 months before Sinai. So 3 months before Sinai God was reminding Israel that there was already in existence a law dedicated to Sabbath keeping. And quoite frankly, that fits entirely into what we know of the Sabbath from the teachings of Jesus. The NT is clear that Jesus is the Creator. Therefore it was Jesus Himself who made the Sabbath. It was of Jesus who Moses said: and God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. (Genesis 2:3) It was Jesus Himself who said, the Sabbath was made for man. Thus is revealed how very appropriate it is for Jesus to claim that He was the Lord of the Sabbath Therefore the Sabbath was made for man at creation. The day (not the rest) was sanctified at creation. It was set aside as a day for rest to benefit man. At creation! Just as each day of creation was for the benefit of others, so also was the Sabbath. Just as each day of creation brought to reality God's love for man and His intention for His creation to be a blessing and an eternal benefit to mankind, so also was the Sabbath. He did not create for 6 days for all mankind, then establish the Sabbath for His own benefit. That would charge God of selfishness. Nor did He create the Sabbath and hold it in reserve for Israel in order to hold them in bondage to His laws. No, the Sabbath established, sanctified, set aside and made holy at creation was solely for the benefit and blessing of all who even today would by faith take a hold of the promise of rest and in the words of Isaiah turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and shalt honour Him, not finding thine own pleasure, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words; then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father, for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. Isaiah 58:13,14.

justaname · May 15, 2015

What I have noticed is lengthy commentary and false conclusions that lead to...even though the Scriptures do not directly say we have to keep the Sabbath, if you squint hard enough as you read into the white section of the print instead of the ink section, you can kinda see how it is inferred...

zeke25 · May 15, 2015

brakelite said:
This incident UD was 3 months before Sinai. So 3 months before Sinai God was reminding Israel that there was already in existence a law dedicated to Sabbath keeping. And quoite frankly, that fits entirely into what we know of the Sabbath from the teachings of Jesus. The NT is clear that Jesus is the Creator. Therefore it was Jesus Himself who made the Sabbath. It was of Jesus who Moses said: and God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. (Genesis 2:3) It was Jesus Himself who said, the Sabbath was made for man. Thus is revealed how very appropriate it is for Jesus to claim that He was the Lord of the Sabbath Therefore the Sabbath was made for man at creation. The day (not the rest) was sanctified at creation. It was set aside as a day for rest to benefit man. At creation!

brakelite,

You ramble on and on as if you know what you are talking about.

Exodus 16:23 did not occur 3 months prior to the giving of the Torah, it was three weeks.

The seven day sabbath was not instituted during creation week. We've been here before. There is no Scriptural evidence of that. Besides, the 7th day of Creation Week did not fall into the Saturday slot, it fell into the Friday slot.

All of your other arguments are null and void, because you base them on a faulty foundation.

Sabbath Keeping
Part III - Who It Was Given To

1. The sons of Jacob became a nation when they were taken out of Egypt. Deuteronomy 4:34 KJV, "Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that [Yahowah] your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?" After God had led the nation of Israel out of Egypt and into the Desert of Sin, the sabbath - for the first time - made its splash on the pages of Scripture. Exodus 16:22-23 KJV 22, "22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which [Yahowah] hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto [Yahowah]: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning." It is important to know that no one, including the Hebrews, had been given the sabbath prior to this time. This is shown in Nehemiah 9:14 KJV, "And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant." See also Ezekiel 20:12 (Part II). God is being praised here for making known His holy sabbath to the Hebrews. In other words, His holy sabbath was not known prior to this time, the time of Moses. If you read Parts I and II of this Sabbath Keeping treatise you will find more Scriptures that verify this teaching.

See page 3, post #81 of this thread.

Zeke25

UppsalaDragby · May 16, 2015

brakelite said:
Your response is somewhat typical of those who persist in the idea that being not 'under the law' equates with freedom from any obligation to obey it. The following however is a direct refutation of that idea. Read the following passage carefully and see if you can detect who it is precisely the class of people who are 'under the law'.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Just as I have pointed out, scriptures such as the above say nothing about being under the Mosaic law.

Rather, they are consistent with the Law of Christ. If the speeding limit in one country is similar to, or even equivalent to, the speeding limit in another country then that does NOT mean that you are under two legal systems! What I am asking you "sabbatarians and SDAS" is scriptural evidence that we are under the 10 commmandments - not that we are under a law that effectively counteracts immoral behavior!

Do you have any such scriptural evidence?

I, on my part, have provided scriptural evidence that being under the law does NOT prevent such behavior, whereas being under the Law of Christ DOES.
Do you have a scriptural response to that or not?

So, here are the principle points as I see it from the above passage.
•We as Christians must walk in the Spirit if we are to inherit eternal life.

Yes, and????

Where does scripture defend the idea that keeping the Mosaic law is equivalent to "walking in the Spirit"? Where is your Biblical evidence? All you can possibly do is point out that the law itself is "Spiritual", but there is absolutely nothing in scripture that points out that human efforts to obey it are "Spiritual". We have an entire book called the "Acts of the Apostles" to exemplify what walking by the Spirit is. Does it mention ANYWHERE where the Spirit supernaturally led the Apostles to keep the 10 commandmant? No, all of the "acts" mentioned here spoke of other things. Does anything in Paul's doctrine for the church suggest that we are obligated to keep the 10 commandments? No, it doesn't. As I have already said, the ONLY mention of the 10 commandments as a unit is given in 2 Cor 3. Are we to make every effort to live moral lives? Yes. Are we therefore under the 10 commandments? No!

•Walking in the flesh is set in contradistinction to walking in the Spirit, with opposite results.

Yes, and????

Where am I advocating "walking in the flesh"?

You cannot find anything in my comments that does that, so PLEASE don't insinuate something that is based on a false assumption. Please try to keep the 9th commandment if you think you are under the Mosiac law!

•The works of the flesh shown, many of which are direct transgressions against God's Ten Commandments, with the remainder offshoots of the same, are all sin.

And???

•Those that walk in the flesh do not inherit the kingdom of God.

And???

•It is those who live according to the flesh, the ones who transgress God's commandments among other things, the ones who live in sin, that are under the law (Verse 18.

Verse 18 does not say any such thing!

What you are trying to wedge in here is that being led by the Spirit is synonymouse to keeping the Mosaic law. It isn't saying that! Just because being led by the Spirit bears fruit that is contrary to immoral behavior does not mean that it equates to being under a law that it EXPLICITLY teaches us we are NOT under! The Law of Christ provides consessions for the fact that we cannot keep perfection demanded by the Mosaic law. The Mosiac law does no such thing! Which forces SDAs to reduce the 10 commandments to 10 SUGGESTIONS! The New Covenant does not do that! It provides a covenant that is based on faith, something that the Old Covenant law was NOT - according to scripture (Gal 3:12)!!!

•Therefore being 'under the law' does not mean as commonly believed, that is those who choose to obey the commandments, but on the contrary, being 'under the law' applies directly to those who choose to disobey the commandments. (See also Romans 8:7)

Why does your theology need to redefine scripture, whereas mine does not? Scripture does not need to be redefined. What it says is that once we come to Christ we are NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW. It says nothing about "choosing to obey the 10 commandments"! You are forced to add something to scripture that just isn't there.

I do not - anywhere! That alone should be an eye-opener for you! Why is it possible for me to rest 100% on what scripture says, whereas you need to explain things away and add to scripture things that are not there?'

You obviously cannot use scripture as it stands. Why not? You are forced to pretend that you have some kind of higher insight and understanding and therefore need to "explain" to others what scripture really means. why not let scripture speak for itself! I can, why not you?

•Thus repeating the assertion that you 'are not under the law' as an excuse for not observing the Sabbath is in fact a contradiction in terms. It is in fact those who choose not to observe Sabbath that are 'under the law'....for they stand as lawbreakers...transgressors.

I don't make any "excuse" for not observing the Sabbath, just as I don't make any excuse for stealing, lying and murdering!

Scripture itself, not me, teaches us that the Sabbath was a shadow of a reality in Christ. As far as I am concerned, "observing the Sabbath" is putting your faith in the REALITY, not the shadow!

You may reply that Sabbath breaking isn't listed in the above passage, therefore is exempt. Much like those who ridiculously cite the Jerusalem council's short list of advice to the Gentile believers as reason for ignoring the Sabbath. In the above passage there is a category under which all excuses for Sabbath breaking could be listed. Heresies.

No, not heresies, just strawmen!

What SDAs are proclaiming on the other hand ARE heresies, and damnable, as scripture defines them (Gal 1:8). So don't talk to me about heresies.

Now in the top quote you said that you had said nothing to suggest that the Ten Commandments were not moral. Allow me to quote again yourself and my subsequent responses, and let the readers take note who is quoting scripture, who is 'adding' to scripture, which you constantly charge us with, yet the real guilt lies with you.

Brakelite, I assure you that I have read those verses very carefully. But what you are doing here is confusing morality with law. And as I have repeatedly pointed out, morality is not the fruit of being under a written code of law.
I am confused? Of course morality isn't a fruit of being 'under the law'! I am agreeing with Paul who says that very thing. . Paul said that those "under the law" are those who practice those sins (among others no doubt). Some of them are specific commandment breaking. Sin is transgression against the law. Being 'under the law' has nothing to do with new/old covenants. It has everything to do with whether one is under condemnation. That is why Paul set grace as being its opposite. (Romans 6:15) Therefore it is quite ironic, even illogical Biblically, to claim that those choosing to keep the Sabbath are 'under the law'.

Uh... so where does that quote show that I am suggesting that the 10 commandments are not moral????

Perhaps we should "let the readers take note" of the fact that you don't seem to understand what you are talking about. All you are doing here is making a bunch of general statements about sin and pretending that they prove your stance and disprove mine. But they DON'T!

Now if you can just provide ONE SINGLE VERSE where Paul teaches us that Grace, or "not being under the law", is equivalent to KEEPING it, and that that idea is at the core of the gospel, then please provide that scripture! We can see, by studying the docrine of the NT that we CANNOT claim to be free from sin, and therefore CANNOT claim to keep it, and therefore, according to your "logic" are ALL under the law making Paul's doctrine completely pointless!

Your theology falls apart! Remember! If anyone claims to be without sin then he is a LIAR! Obviously, you don't understand what you so confidently proclaim...

The law of Christ is expressed in a number of different ways. "bearing others' burdens'....doing unto others as you would have them do to you....Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Notice....the golden rule we call it....Jesus says this is the law and the prophets. He did not say that the law is superceded by the law of Christ...but rather it IS the law.
Thus my friend UD, the law of Christ , the love commandments, the Ten Commandments given at Sinai, all express the very same thing, and all are therefore to be obeyed!

Well if you put a little thought into this, rather than simply fall back on this common SDA argument, which actually twists scripture around in the opposite direction of what it says, then you would have discovered a gigantic flaw in that kind of argument.

The Law of Christ FULFILLS the Mosaic law. It doesn't EQUATE to it. And this is obvious, because anyone could simply claim that getting circumcised, or doing anything else in obedience to the so-called "ceremonial" laws, and claim that they are therefore "keeping the Law of Christ". To counteract this argument SDAs need to create false distinctions in the law that are not found in scripture. Jesus spoke of the Mosaic law as ONE INDIVISIBLE UNIT. And Paul confirmed this by pointing out the scriptural truth that "everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law", is cursed. He said that for a reason! Pretend, if you want, that he said that simply because he was just annoyed at a church that was trying to obsere ceremonies. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense!

Both laws are broken when one commits adultery UD. BOTH! Christ did not give a law against adultery to Israel, but not intend that gentiles need not be obliged to stay faithful to their wives. Remember Joseph? How he ran away from Potiphar's wife rather than commit adultery? What did he say the reason for his fear of doing so?
......how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? Genesis 39:9 Joseph knew adultery was wrong...he knew it was a sin against God. The law which confirmed this at Sinai was not new!

You don't seem to understand when you prove my point, and disprove yours.

The fact that Joseph understood what was morally right or wrong WITHOUT being under the 10 commandments proves that being under them doesn't effect whether or not you behavior is moral. Just as I pointed out before, you are CONFUSING morality with law!

Just think about how utterly foolish this argument is! It's like saying, since you refrained from lying, then that is proof that you are under the Mosaic law. All it really proves is that you are doing something that is morally consisten with the law, not that you are under it! Being UNDER the law requires obeying ALL of it, not simply complying to some kind of moral behavior. But since you cannot provide scripture to support your doctrine, you need to pull arguments out of a hat.
Listen to this once and for all - we have a law that not only requires righteous behavior, but one that produces its fruit. Being under the 10 commandments does not do that! It produces death and condemnation. So try to deal with that, rather than implying that all accounts of moral behavior prove that we are under the 10. It doesn't!

Same with the Sabbath. The Sabbath that was introduced to Israel in Exodus 16 was not new. In verse 27, we are told...and it came to pass that there went out some of the people on the 7th day for to gather, and they found none. And the Lord said, how long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Again, you don't seem to understand when an arguments works for you or against you!

To start with, I don't have any problem acknowleging that this verse foreshadowed the Sabbath commandment. God obviously knew what lied ahead. And obviously, despite your false notion that God was not angry with the generation at Sinai (even though scripture explicitly tells us that he was), you cannot use this verse to claim that the sabbath commandment existed BEFORE THAT GENERATION!

The ONLY way you can defend such an idea is by assuming that it is possible for there to be a law that no one even knew about!!!

No one in their right mind "commands" someone to do something and doesn't let them know what that commadment is, do they?

So are you going to be as foolish as your friend Phoneman, and claim that the sabbath commandment existed before Sinai, or are you going to admit that it did not????

Please let me know. And, once again, give me scriptural support for your claims.

Phoneman777 · May 16, 2015

zeke25 said:
Phoneguy,

It is not I that condemns you. The Scriptures are your judge, not me. And you have failed to answer even one Scripture. What a coward. You insult, call into question others' salvation, lie, and expose yourself as biblically illiterate, then you cry like a stuck pig when a Scripture condemns your theology. Stop being a coward, as you like to accuse others, and answer the Scriptures. Tell us why they do not condemn your theology.

Why do you say I “insist on calling into the question the salvation of others”? What statement are you referring to? Was it my statement “you have not the Spirit of the Living God”? Many call themselves Christian that do not even believe in the Holy Ghost. It is even biblical.

Acts 19:3 KJV, “He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”

So, “have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed”?

Obviously, Paul detected something amiss, or he wouldn’t have asked the question.

Zeke25

I have not called into question any other person's salvation at any time. Either provide proof or I demand you retract that statement. It is you who questions the salvation of others and it is a violation of forum rules, so either comply with forum rules or leave.

It is not an act of cowardice on my part to ignore foolish questions which arise out of your flawed interpretation of Scripture. What is cowardice is the denial of the logical progression of one's own stated position - which is exactly what you and all others like you do when you all teach that the Ten Commandments no longer apply to Christians but refuse to acknowledge that Christians may freely worship other gods, blaspheme, engage in idolatry, kill, commit adultery, etc. This is first rate creative theology in all it's wondrous non-sequitur, inconsistent, and baseless rationalization if there ever was any.

If you are not a coward, then boldly state publicly that Christians may freely break the Ten Commandments as boldly as I have publicly stated that no Christian is at liberty to violate them. Stop trying to walk down both sides of the street.

Raeneske · May 16, 2015

brakelite said:
Here is a direct scriptural answer to your constant demands that "we Sabbatarians or SDAs" should do this, showing that it has been done, but rejected .

Titus 3:10 brakelite, Titus 3:10. Leave it be. Seeds are planted. Your methods, as are mine, not working. Pray.

zeke25 · May 16, 2015

DGenesis1:29 said:
Titus 3:10 brakelite, Titus 3:10. Leave it be. Seeds are planted. Your methods, as are mine, not working. Pray.

DGenesis1:29,

This is really for anyone who is looking in, not just for DGenesis. Apparently, he is a vegetarian because he is obeying what he perceives as the law. This is where these people will take you if you listen to their heresy. They will put you into bondage in ways that you can't imagine until they close the venus flytrap on you. Look at the confusion they put forth - do you want to be that confused?

Titus 3:10 is exactly the reason I withdraw from talking to them from time to time. They are clueless about the truth and they are biblical illiterates.

If we have exposed someone you love who is held captive to a false doctrine or church, they need your help desperately. If you do not pray for your loved ones or cherished friends to be set free from captivity, who will? If you do not know they are in captivity because you do not know what their denomination really teaches, then you cannot and will not pray for them.

Zeke25

UppsalaDragby said:
Please let me know. And, once again, give me scriptural support for your claims.

Uppsaladragby,

Where does scripture defend the idea that keeping the Mosaic law is equivalent to "walking in the Spirit"? Where is your Biblical evidence? All you can possibly do is point out that the law itself is "Spiritual", but there is absolutely nothing in scripture that points out that human efforts to obey it are "Spiritual". We have an entire book called the "Acts of the Apostles" to exemplify what walking by the Spirit is. Does it mention ANYWHERE where the Spirit supernaturally led the Apostles to keep the 10 commandmant? No, all of the "acts" mentioned here spoke of other things. Does anything in Paul's doctrine for the church suggest that we are obligated to keep the 10 commandments? No, it doesn't. As I have already said, the ONLY mention of the 10 commandments as a unit is given in 2 Cor 3. Are we to make every effort to live moral lives? Yes. Are we therefore under the 10 commandments? No!

Amen.

What you are trying to wedge in here is that being led by the Spirit is synonymouse to keeping the Mosaic law. It isn't saying that! Just because being led by the Spirit bears fruit that is contrary to immoral behavior does not mean that it equates to being under a law that it EXPLICITLY teaches us we are NOT under! The Law of Christ provides consessions for the fact that we cannot keep perfection demanded by the Mosaic law. The Mosiac law does no such thing! Which forces SDAs to reduce the 10 commandments to 10 SUGGESTIONS! The New Covenant does not do that! It provides a covenant that is based on faith, something that the Old Covenant law was NOT - according to scripture (Gal 3:12)!!!

Amen.

No, not heresies, just strawmen!

What SDAs are proclaiming on the other hand ARE heresies, and damnable, as scripture defines them (Gal 1:8). So don't talk to me about heresies.

Uh... so where does that quote show that I am suggesting that the 10 commandments are not moral????

Perhaps we should "let the readers take note" of the fact that you don't seem to understand what you are talking about. All you are doing here is making a bunch of general statements about sin and pretending that they prove your stance and disprove mine. But they DON'T!

Now if you can just provide ONE SINGLE VERSE where Paul teaches us that Grace, or "not being under the law", is equivalent to KEEPING it, and that that idea is at the core of the gospel, then please provide that scripture! We can see, by studying the docrine of the NT that we CANNOT claim to be free from sin, and therefore CANNOT claim to keep it, and therefore, according to your "logic" are ALL under the law making Paul's doctrine completely pointless!

Your theology falls apart! Remember! If anyone claims to be without sin then he is a LIAR! Obviously, you don't understand what you so confidently proclaim...

Amen.

etc.

Amen.

Upp,

If they could only see the blessing God has given them through you. Someone, who has much more patience than I, to continue to reason with them for the salvation of their immortal souls. (And for anyone who wants to make a point and say that I'm calling someone not a Christian, this is a blanket statement to all on this forum that hold similar beliefs. It is not a statement for a particular person. So, if the shoe fits wear it, if it doesn't, then you need not be concerned). 2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV, "5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that [Yahoshua the] Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

God bless,
Zeke25

Keeth · May 16, 2015

This much absolutely cannot be denied, Seventh day Sabbath worshippers continually point to the authority of the word of God by way of conviction to observe their day by faith in the same, while first day proponents have persistantly and continuosly leaned upon human legislation by way of government coercion for the observance of thier day. These fruits themselves, reveal the truth of the matter.

http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n3/mode/2up

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/home/article/74.html

http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Sabbath-Sunday/NationalSundayLaw-Jones.pdf

zeke25 · May 16, 2015

Keeth said:
This much absolutely cannot be denied, Seventh day Sabbath worshippers continually point to the authority of the word of God by way of conviction to observe their day by faith in the same, while first day proponents have persistantly and continuosly leaned upon human legislation by way of government coercion for the observance of thier day. These fruits themselves, reveal the truth of the matter.

http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n3/mode/2up

http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/home/article/74.html

http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Sabbath-Sunday/NationalSundayLaw-Jones.pdf

Keeth,

Herein lies a major flaw that you promote. What in the world does Sunday observance have to do with the Saturday/Sabbath? Nothing whatsoever. I equally contend with those who advocate a Sunday Sabbath every bit as much as I contend with those who advocate a Saturday Sabbath. Both positions are equally not supported by the Word of God.

I would advise that you get out of your box, and stop building strawmen.

This is not a war between Sunday keepers and Sabbath keepers. This is a war between Sabbath keepers and the Bible.

Zeke25

Keeth · May 16, 2015

zeke25 said:
Keeth,

Herein lies a major flaw that you promote. What in the world does Sunday observance have to do with the Saturday/Sabbath? Nothing whatsoever. I equally contend with those who advocate a Sunday Sabbath every bit as much as I contend with those who advocate a Saturday Sabbath. Both positions are equally not supported by the Word of God.

I would advise that you get out of your box, and stop building strawmen.

This is not a war between Sunday keepers and Sabbath keepers. This is a war between Sabbath keepers and the Bible.

Zeke25

Your the one in a box my friend. Your denial of all relevance of scripture regarding the seventh day Sabbath will never make it so, though you are correct that the scriptures have nothing to say about Sunday sacredness. Denying the facts of history regarding Sunday legislation, and that which is happening right now in relation to the same, places you in a box detatched from reality sir, not me. The day has been forced upon one society after another by law throughout the last 1700 to 1800 years with varying penalties for those who would not comply. Today there are still many pushing for the same arrangement. These two sacred days, represent to totally different forms of worship. One denotes the worship of God, and the other denotes the worship of man in the place of God.

zeke25 · May 16, 2015

Keeth said:
Your the one in a box my friend. Your denial of all relevance of scripture regarding the seventh day Sabbath will never make it so, though you are correct that the scriptures have nothing to say about Sunday sacredness. Denying the facts of history regarding Sunday legislation, and that which is happening right now in relation to the same, places you in a box detatched from reality sir, not me. The day has been forced upon one society after another by law throughout the last 1700 to 1800 years with varying penalties for those who would not comply. Today there are still many pushing for the same arrangement. These two sacred days, represent to totally different forms of worship. One denotes the worship of God, and the other denotes the worship of man in the place of God.

Keeth,

You're so locked into this idea of Sunday vs Sabbath, that you are unable to even think about the subject, much less discuss it without muddling the issue. I don't care about what the world does with its Sundays laws. That's the world, not me. So, you can beat your strawman to death for all I care. But that is the height of dysfunctionality. I don't even care if you worship on Saturday, nor that the Baptists worship on Sunday. What is that to me?

Once again, you need to get out of your box. Come out into the open air and breathe up here, it so refreshing.

Do you really think, when it is all over, and you stand before God and tell Him, "Did you see the ways I thumped those Sunday keepers and their laws at every opportunity?" that He will be impressed? Do you really think that it bothers Him in the least? Do you really think He dispatched you and the others on this witch hunt, to further the Kingdom of God?

Paul said, I strive to know Christ and Him crucified. Would that not be a better goal for you to pursue?

This is the work of God, John 6:29 KJV, "[Yahoshua] answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Zeke25

Keeth · May 16, 2015

zeke25 said:
Keeth,

You're so locked into this idea of Sunday vs Sabbath, that you are unable to even think about the subject, much less discuss it without muddling the issue. I don't care about what the world does with its Sundays laws. That's the world, not me. So, you can beat your strawman to death for all I care. But that is the height of dysfunctionality. I don't even care if you worship on Saturday, nor that the Baptists worship on Sunday. What is that to me?

Once again, you need to get out of your box. Come out into the open air and breathe up here, it so refreshing.

Do you really think, when it is all over, and you stand before God and tell Him, "Did you see the ways I thumped those Sunday keepers and their laws at every opportunity?" that He will be impressed? Do you really think that it bothers Him in the least? Do you really think He dispatched you and the others on this witch hunt, to further the Kingdom of God?

Paul said, I strive to know Christ and Him crucified. Would that not be a better goal for you to pursue?

This is the work of God, John 6:29 KJV, "[Yahoshua] answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Zeke25

Do you really think you know me, and why I do what I do or say what I say? Are you now God? Do you think we can no Christ apart from the scriptures and what they teach, including what they teach about the Sabbath? Is Christ not your example? Can you strive to know Christ while igoring how He kept the Sabbath and what He taught regarding it. Can you say you know and follow Him when you teach that one of the commandments is no longer important, when He conclusively stated that anyone who teaches such will be called least in the kingdom of heaven? I'm not the one here ignoring the words of Jesus Christ.

Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mr 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 8:46 ¶ Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

How preach you to me knowing Christ and Him crucified while you ignore and or contradict what He plainly taught?

zeke25 · May 16, 2015

Keeth said:
Do you really think you know me, and why I do what I do or say what I say? Are you now God? Do you think we can no Christ apart from the scriptures and what they teach, including what they teach about the Sabbath? Is Christ not your example? Can you strive to know Christ while igoring how He kept the Sabbath and what He taught regarding it. Can you say you know and follow Him when you teach that one of the commandments is no longer important, when He conclusively stated that anyone who teaches such will be called least in the kingdom of heaven? I'm not the one here ignoring the words of Jesus Christ.

Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mr 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 8:46 ¶ Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

How preach you to me knowing Christ and Him crucified while you ignore and or contradict what He plainly taught?

Keeth,

It grieves me how thoroughly you proved my point. You have posted a muddled presentation of confusion.

Zeke25

Phoneman777 · May 16, 2015

zeke25 said:
DGenesis1:29,

This is really for anyone who is looking in, not just for DGenesis. Apparently, he is a vegetarian because he is obeying what he perceives as the law. This is where these people will take you if you listen to their heresy. They will put you into bondage in ways that you can't imagine until they close the venus flytrap on you.

You obviously have failed to understand that a vegetarian diet is the best, most healthy diet for humans, and happens to be what God ordained in the Garden of Eden.

Do you know what true bondage is? Having your chest cavity split open, your leg split open, and having a vein removed from the one and placed as a bypass in the other. Or, having to go to Dialysis every two days because your kidneys no longer work. Or, having to stick yourself multiple times a day to test your blood sugar because your pancreas no longer works. Or, suffering irreparable brain damage due to a stroke and having to rely on others to take care of your most basic needs. I could go on and on about all this bondage to which eating animal protein leads, but doing so would be pointless for someone like you who is determined to be convinced of error.

Obviously, you've never heard of Blue Zones, so I'll have to explain to you that there are 5 of them located around the world in which the population living in them has been identified as far more healthy and longer living than the rest of the world population. Four of them are comprised of genetically similar inhabitants, BUT THE FIFTH, WHICH IS THE ONLY ONE IN THE UNITED STATES, IS LOCATED IN LOMA LINDA, CALIFORNIA, AND IS COMPRISED OF A COMPLETELY GENETICALLY DIVERSE POPULATION OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS who live far longer and healthier that the rest of the population, which is undeniable proof that disease has very little to do with genes and much to do with lifestyle choices. So, while you are bashing people for the "bondage" of their diet choices, make sure you health insurance is paid up good, because though you claim the Bible gives you a license to eat whatever you want, the emergency room in which your lifestyle choices will land you, will for you be a sad rebuke. How do I know? It's happening all the time, brother.

brakelite · May 17, 2015

@Uppsala Dragby....Quote from yourself....What you are trying to wedge in here is that being led by the Spirit is synonymouse to keeping the Mosaic law. It isn't saying that! Just because being led by the Spirit bears fruit that is contrary to immoral behavior does not mean that it equates to being under a law that it EXPLICITLY teaches us we are NOT under!

Here is a classic and most interesting example of how you debate. Where did you learn this technique? Or does it come naturally? Claiming I am saying one thing which is obviously Biblically erroneous, while completely ignoring or twisting what I did say.
What I went to great pains to point out in many of my previous posts were a number of points, the following directly pertinent to your above quote...

Those who walk after the flesh cannot obey the laws of God. How do I know this? Romans 8:5-8. Check it out.
Those who are led by the Spirit have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in them by that self-same Spirit. How do I know this? Romans 8:4. Check it out.
Those who are under the law are not those who are obeying it, but those who are disobeying it, those who cannot obey it because they are walking in the flesh, with carnal and fleshly results. How do I know this? Galatians 5:17-21. Check it out.
Nowhere in any of my posts on this forum have I even hinted at any Christians obligation to observe the Mosaic law despite your strawman argument to the contrary. What I have said is that all men everywhere is obliged to obey God's eternal law of ten commandments. Nor have I suggested that walking in the Spirit results in the keeping of the Mosaic law.What I have said and I am sure you could find it if you looked hard enough was, quote: Walking in the flesh is set in contradistinction to walking in the Spirit, with opposite results. How do I know this? Compare Galatians 5:19-20 with Galatians 5:22,23. Check it out.
Walking in the Spirit also results in fruits of righteousness, entirely in keeping with Galatians 5:5; Romans 5:17-21; Romans 6:18-23; ....how do I know this? Phil. 1:9-11.

Now if the righteousness mentioned so often above that we receive as a result of walking in the Spirit does not result in our keeping of God's commandments then what else could mean the expression, Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Despite your repeated assertions to the contrary, and claims and lies that Sabbath keepers are attempting to be justified by their own efforts in obeying God's commandments, the aforementioned scriptures reveal incontrovertibly two things:

it is quite impossible for anyone to observe any commandment without the power of God radically changing the mind, the heart, and the will, and that includes you.
it is quite impossible for anyone walking in the Spirit having been radically changed in mind, heart, and will, to disobey the commandments of God. For the man or woman of faith, the commandments become promises. They become creative words of power in the mind and heart of the believer. Just like at creation when God said "let there be light"...so He also says 'Thou shalt not steal...thou shalt not commit adultery...thou shalt not covet...thou shalt not have any other god before Me....thou shalt not take my name in vain... remember to keep holy My Sabbath day (the man or woman who has not that faith, the commandments are not promises, but impossible targets, and they forget.

How do I know this?

Hebrews 4:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
5:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

John 15:5; 1 John 3:3-10; Revelation 22:14,15

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

We do not keep the Sabbath, or any other of the commandments because we are striving to attempt to obey God in our own fleshly strength. As the Bible so clearly points out, that is impossible! The only way anyone can keep any commandment is by being radically changed by the power of the living God through the action of the Holy Spirit in the minds, hearts, and souls of the believing repentant child of God. God makes them righteous. God makes them obedient. God makes them holy. God makes them like His very own Son!!! There is no other way this can be accomplished!!!

How do I know this?
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This is how we obey. This is our testimony. This is the power of the gospel.

justaname · May 17, 2015

The righteousness of God is imputed through belief in the resurrected Son. Through the Spirit given we love God above all and love others as ourselves. This is walking in the Spirit. Diet or other observances are not required of His children in the new covenant. If one chooses to follow ascetic practices because of the weakness of their faith, this is allowed, yet they are not to judge others who do not.

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