Sabbath-Keeping

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face2face

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Phoneman777 said:
Jesus spoke in such terms of absolutism. "He that is not with Me is against Me." "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." "No man can serve two masters." Too many to list, really.
Correct.
A sinless one is afforded such confidence.
You are not able to come down amidst the sinners?
F2F
 

face2face

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Phoneman777 said:
FTF, are you still claiming that the Old Covenant is the Law in light of what I've shown you in Romans 3:31 where I'd demonstrated that "Old Covenant" cannot replace the words "the Law"? Let's stick to one point at a time, if you don't mind.
The Law exists in the setting of God’s covenant with Israel; covenant, not law-keeping, is the basis of this relationship. The purpose of the law is to administrate the covenant! One is dependant upon the other.

I ask you again; in the context of Romans Chapter 3 & 4 is one justified by OT Law OR the OT Covenant?

Just a simple yes or no will suffice.

note I assume you have read and understand Pauls arguments in Chapter 4?

If you are keeping to the OT Covenant & Law then explain how Paul explains to us from Rom 3:31 how the law can still be considered "upheld" through what he has said?

Clearly you are missing something!

Out of respect, please discontinue dodging my points - I have established many valid arguments for you to ponder and so far your short half-hearted responses do not bode well for this discussion.

- Your false dichotomy point fell down hard.
- Pauls introduction of Abraham stands against your current belief system
- Your failure to acknowledge gentiles obeying the Law of Moses, though not knowing its requirements has been ignored.
- Your boasting in perfect obedience has not drawn your audience into Sabbath keeping but pushed them away.

I hope you can produce something soon.

F2F
 

mjrhealth

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Phoneman,

what price for Grace, a free gift from God are you, you willing to pay.

Its free if you pay for it it isnt grace anymore. Can you do more than Jesus did. I seriuosly doubt it.

I guess your silence on teh matter speaks volumes. You cant keep teh law, it is impossible even for you.

In all His Love
 

Questor

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It’s been a while since I was here…I was surprised to see this debate going on so long, and so pointlessly.
It is said that people that are persuaded against their own opinion are of the same opinion still. For seven months you have been arguing what commandments apply to Christians, firmly disavowing all that was given in the Sinai Covenant, and the covenants before them, while grasping on to the ‘New’ Covenant, that isn’t yet in force, and indeed, was never promised to anyone but the Israelites.

We Gentiles are only promised a blessing in Abraham, and have received it though his Seed, Yeshua. As Sha’ul said,

16 Now if the challah offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!
22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off! Romans 11:16-22 (CJB)


The Olive Tree is the symbol of Israel, and being grafted into her, we become Israelites after the spirit, because of our salvation in Yeshua, but even so, the New Covenant will not be in effect until Yeshua comes, and we that believe in him are made Incorrupt, with all of Torah written inside of us. Until that time, only our faith and the actions we take based on that faith in conjunction with the help of the Ruach haKodesh keep us in Yeshua, and that if we do not attempt to grow, and bear fruit, we will be broken back off of the Olive Tree, and thrown into the fire.

13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work
14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them!
15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!
16 Now if the challah offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust…So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!
22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in.
24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!
25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won’t imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra’el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness;
26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved.As the Tanakh says, “Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya‘akov
27 and this will be my covenant with them,... when I take away their sins.”
28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs’ sake,
29 for God’s free gifts and his calling are irrevocable.
30 Just as you yourselves were disobedient to God before but have received mercy now because of Isra’el’s disobedience;
31 so also Isra’el has been disobedient now, so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they too may now receive God’s mercy.
32 For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all. Romans 11:13-32 (CJB)


The law of love and the law of liberty have been much spoken of on this thread, but no one seems to be at all concerned with what kind of difference our love for G-d, and for each other are supposed to make in us, and for that matter in the Jews that were the first to receive Yeshua as Mashiach, and be filled with the ‘earnest deposit’ of the Ruach ha Kodesh.

The New Covenant that we wait for in such impatience will write all of Torah on the Believer’s heart…Jew or Gentile, because we are to rule and reign with Yeshua, and be always with him. There will be no difference between us…the wall of partition will be completely down, and there will be nothing left to fight over, for we will all know the Torah as Yeshua gives it.

The New Covenant is not a change in the commandments that G-d has given to Man through the Jews, but how we are enabled to keep them. The Jews fight against the heavy burden of the Torah, but they at least try…those that are Jews that are in Mashiach…Messianic Jews, just as I am a Messianic Gentile. Most Christians of Protestant denominations avoid the commandments of the Torah like the plague, and rest only in the grace of G-d through Yeshua, and their walk of faith according to what is taught in the Brit Chadashah. That's fine for salvation, but not much for blessings now, or future reward.

Yeshua said, ” Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” Matthew 5:17-20 (CJB)


Please note that it says “until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. “ That means until after the Millennium, when Yeshua turns the Kingdom back to YHVH, and the earth and heavens are destroyed, and a new heaven and earth given us.

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had passed away, and the sea was no longer there.
2 Also I saw the holy city, New Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “See! God’s Sh’khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God. Revelation 21:1-3 (CJB)


Now, someone may say correctly that Gentiles are not obligated to keep or observe Torah. Salvation for Jew or Gentile is only through Yeshua, and has nothing to do with the Torah. Keeping any of the commandments while a Gentile or a Jew according to the manmade Laws of the Pharisees (Currently called Orthodox Jews) is not necessary for our salvation, and the grace we receive in Yeshua. But that is not why Believers of any church or synagogue should keep those commandments in the Torah to the extent they are able to do so.

We are to be in obedience to the extent of our understanding and ability to G-d, and to Yeshua both. Loving G-d is expressed quite clearly in the first 4 commandments given at Sinai, as our love for one another is defined in the next 6 of the remainder of the commandments given at Sinai, which describes moral law.

Loving Yeshua leads us to go farther than ever any non-believing Jew did before Yeshua…to do not only the outward semblance of obedience to Torah, but to keep the heart of the Torah. To not only refrain from killing, but to refrain from hating, and to not merely refrain from adultery in action, but in deed, and to not steal, but not look longingly another’s belongings, or envy them their good fortune.

We certainly are to be all that Yeshua told us to do…to be as much like him as we can, for love of him. This is what Discipleship is…making oneself over into an accurate copy of the one we love. Yeshua was a Jew, and I was born a Gentile, but that does not keep me from thinking that to honor the Father, I should remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy, because G-d so much delights in it when we do so; it is what Yeshua did himself; and it is what we will be doing in the Kingdom of G-d…all the way until the world is remade, and G-d comes to rule us Himself.

The directions for the Sabbath are to do no laborious or creative work, to stay home, and have a holy convocation…with your family and friends. All the rest of the rules about the Sabbath were made up to keep Jews from inadvertently breaking the Sabbath in the times when it would have gotten someone stoned to death, and alas, they are tied up in knots in their rules and legalism because it is the way they stayed a separate people from AD 70 onwards.

There are other laws we should keep that we will keep in future, but they are not mandatory now for Gentiles. However, Yeshua isn’t about what is mandatory, but what you will give him of your own choice and free will for love of him.

The Moedim, the G-d appointed feast days of Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot will be mandatory in the Kingdom for the entire world to keep, even non-believers, and on penalty of lack of rain to water their crops. Why then do we not for love keep them now? And eating clean foods over unclean foods…one of my friends nearly died from eating some fully cooked ham when he was infested with massive tapeworms, and frankly, though I miss bacon, I can do without it, yet if I find some bacon was in my pea-soup, I don’t freak out either, because G-d does know what I am attempting to do outside of any community of like believers, and that I do it only for Him.

Many on this thread have been saying a lot about love being the motivating force for obedience to what is written in Scripture, Old and New Testaments, but then cast aside the first five Books of the Bible like they were some punishment from G-d to attempt to keep, and yet most Believers know that if they do not Tithe, G-d tends to withhold blessings that would automatically be theirs because of their lack of helping others, just as G-d does not bless those who live in sinful ways, or in anger and unforgiveness.

There are reasons to teach and to keep the commandments in the first five Books of the Bible…they determine not our salvation, but our reward in the Kingdom, and G-d's willingness to bless us extraordinarily now. Why? G-d believes in incentives to good behavior, and the better your behavior and character, the more G-d can bless you in this world and use you to His benefit, and to further His purposes.

And so, I do what G-d and Yeshua have instructed to the best of my ability, based on the plain descriptions in the Scriptures, and no more. I sincerely believe that every Believer should voluntarily do all that G-d desires as it is written in the Scripture, and I pray that you will consider this as you walk towards the Day of the Lord…it’s getting very evident that time is getting short.
 

Phoneman777

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face2face said:
Correct.
A sinless one is afforded such confidence.
You are not able to come down amidst the sinners?
F2F
Jesus is our sinless Example which we as Christians are to emulate, both in word, which includes such absolutism, and deed.
 

Phoneman777

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face2face said:
The Law exists in the setting of God’s covenant with Israel; covenant, not law-keeping, is the basis of this relationship. The purpose of the law is to administrate the covenant! One is dependant upon the other.

I ask you again; in the context of Romans Chapter 3 & 4 is one justified by OT Law OR the OT Covenant?

Just a simple yes or no will suffice.

note I assume you have read and understand Pauls arguments in Chapter 4?

If you are keeping to the OT Covenant & Law then explain how Paul explains to us from Rom 3:31 how the law can still be considered "upheld" through what he has said?

Clearly you are missing something!

Out of respect, please discontinue dodging my points - I have established many valid arguments for you to ponder and so far your short half-hearted responses do not bode well for this discussion.

- Your false dichotomy point fell down hard.
- Pauls introduction of Abraham stands against your current belief system
- Your failure to acknowledge gentiles obeying the Law of Moses, though not knowing its requirements has been ignored.
- Your boasting in perfect obedience has not drawn your audience into Sabbath keeping but pushed them away.

I hope you can produce something soon.
F2F, the claim you made that the Old Covenant is the Law is a major point of contention, so please stop clouding the discussion with other ideas that we can get to later and focus on this, OK? What is your comment regarding our inability to replace "the Law" with "Old Covenant" in Romans 3:31 KJV and do you admit that the inability to do so proves that your claim that "the Old Covenant, the law..." in which you equate the one with the other, is not Biblical?
 

Phoneman777

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Questor said:
It’s been a while since I was here…I was surprised to see this debate going on so long, and so pointlessly.
It is said that people that are persuaded against their own opinion are of the same opinion still. For seven months you have been arguing what commandments apply to Christians, firmly disavowing all that was given in the Sinai Covenant, and the covenants before them, while grasping on to the ‘New’ Covenant, that isn’t yet in force, and indeed, was never promised to anyone but the Israelites.

We Gentiles are only promised a blessing in Abraham, and have received it though his Seed, Yeshua. As Sha’ul said,

16 Now if the challah offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!
22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off! Romans 11:16-22 (CJB)


The Olive Tree is the symbol of Israel, and being grafted into her, we become Israelites after the spirit, because of our salvation in Yeshua, but even so, the New Covenant will not be in effect until Yeshua comes, and we that believe in him are made Incorrupt, with all of Torah written inside of us. Until that time, only our faith and the actions we take based on that faith in conjunction with the help of the Ruach haKodesh keep us in Yeshua, and that if we do not attempt to grow, and bear fruit, we will be broken back off of the Olive Tree, and thrown into the fire.

13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work
14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them!
15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!
16 Now if the challah offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust…So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!
22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in.
24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!
25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won’t imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra’el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness;
26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved.As the Tanakh says, “Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya‘akov
27 and this will be my covenant with them,... when I take away their sins.”
28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs’ sake,
29 for God’s free gifts and his calling are irrevocable.
30 Just as you yourselves were disobedient to God before but have received mercy now because of Isra’el’s disobedience;
31 so also Isra’el has been disobedient now, so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they too may now receive God’s mercy.
32 For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all. Romans 11:13-32 (CJB)


The law of love and the law of liberty have been much spoken of on this thread, but no one seems to be at all concerned with what kind of difference our love for G-d, and for each other are supposed to make in us, and for that matter in the Jews that were the first to receive Yeshua as Mashiach, and be filled with the ‘earnest deposit’ of the Ruach ha Kodesh.

The New Covenant that we wait for in such impatience will write all of Torah on the Believer’s heart…Jew or Gentile, because we are to rule and reign with Yeshua, and be always with him. There will be no difference between us…the wall of partition will be completely down, and there will be nothing left to fight over, for we will all know the Torah as Yeshua gives it.

The New Covenant is not a change in the commandments that G-d has given to Man through the Jews, but how we are enabled to keep them. The Jews fight against the heavy burden of the Torah, but they at least try…those that are Jews that are in Mashiach…Messianic Jews, just as I am a Messianic Gentile. Most Christians of Protestant denominations avoid the commandments of the Torah like the plague, and rest only in the grace of G-d through Yeshua, and their walk of faith according to what is taught in the Brit Chadashah. That's fine for salvation, but not much for blessings now, or future reward.

Yeshua said, ” Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” Matthew 5:17-20 (CJB)


Please note that it says “until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. “ That means until after the Millennium, when Yeshua turns the Kingdom back to YHVH, and the earth and heavens are destroyed, and a new heaven and earth given us.

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had passed away, and the sea was no longer there.
2 Also I saw the holy city, New Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “See! God’s Sh’khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God. Revelation 21:1-3 (CJB)


Now, someone may say correctly that Gentiles are not obligated to keep or observe Torah. Salvation for Jew or Gentile is only through Yeshua, and has nothing to do with the Torah. Keeping any of the commandments while a Gentile or a Jew according to the manmade Laws of the Pharisees (Currently called Orthodox Jews) is not necessary for our salvation, and the grace we receive in Yeshua. But that is not why Believers of any church or synagogue should keep those commandments in the Torah to the extent they are able to do so.

We are to be in obedience to the extent of our understanding and ability to G-d, and to Yeshua both. Loving G-d is expressed quite clearly in the first 4 commandments given at Sinai, as our love for one another is defined in the next 6 of the remainder of the commandments given at Sinai, which describes moral law.

Loving Yeshua leads us to go farther than ever any non-believing Jew did before Yeshua…to do not only the outward semblance of obedience to Torah, but to keep the heart of the Torah. To not only refrain from killing, but to refrain from hating, and to not merely refrain from adultery in action, but in deed, and to not steal, but not look longingly another’s belongings, or envy them their good fortune.

We certainly are to be all that Yeshua told us to do…to be as much like him as we can, for love of him. This is what Discipleship is…making oneself over into an accurate copy of the one we love. Yeshua was a Jew, and I was born a Gentile, but that does not keep me from thinking that to honor the Father, I should remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy, because G-d so much delights in it when we do so; it is what Yeshua did himself; and it is what we will be doing in the Kingdom of G-d…all the way until the world is remade, and G-d comes to rule us Himself.

The directions for the Sabbath are to do no laborious or creative work, to stay home, and have a holy convocation…with your family and friends. All the rest of the rules about the Sabbath were made up to keep Jews from inadvertently breaking the Sabbath in the times when it would have gotten someone stoned to death, and alas, they are tied up in knots in their rules and legalism because it is the way they stayed a separate people from AD 70 onwards.

There are other laws we should keep that we will keep in future, but they are not mandatory now for Gentiles. However, Yeshua isn’t about what is mandatory, but what you will give him of your own choice and free will for love of him.

The Moedim, the G-d appointed feast days of Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot will be mandatory in the Kingdom for the entire world to keep, even non-believers, and on penalty of lack of rain to water their crops. Why then do we not for love keep them now? And eating clean foods over unclean foods…one of my friends nearly died from eating some fully cooked ham when he was infested with massive tapeworms, and frankly, though I miss bacon, I can do without it, yet if I find some bacon was in my pea-soup, I don’t freak out either, because G-d does know what I am attempting to do outside of any community of like believers, and that I do it only for Him.

Many on this thread have been saying a lot about love being the motivating force for obedience to what is written in Scripture, Old and New Testaments, but then cast aside the first five Books of the Bible like they were some punishment from G-d to attempt to keep, and yet most Believers know that if they do not Tithe, G-d tends to withhold blessings that would automatically be theirs because of their lack of helping others, just as G-d does not bless those who live in sinful ways, or in anger and unforgiveness.

There are reasons to teach and to keep the commandments in the first five Books of the Bible…they determine not our salvation, but our reward in the Kingdom, and G-d's willingness to bless us extraordinarily now. Why? G-d believes in incentives to good behavior, and the better your behavior and character, the more G-d can bless you in this world and use you to His benefit, and to further His purposes.

And so, I do what G-d and Yeshua have instructed to the best of my ability, based on the plain descriptions in the Scriptures, and no more. I sincerely believe that every Believer should voluntarily do all that G-d desires as it is written in the Scripture, and I pray that you will consider this as you walk towards the Day of the Lord…it’s getting very evident that time is getting short.
The axiom is "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." The problem is not that anyone here is convinced against his will - the problem is that some here are convinced against His will.

There is simply no justification in claiming that the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians, for if that is the case, then please be the first to publicly proclaim which other of the Ten Commandments we may freely break as freely as is claimed that we may break the seventh day Sabbath. To date, those who are of this position have exposed themselves as too cowardly to publicly declare such, which reveals that they really don't believe that Christians are at liberty to break the Ten Commandments, but their rebellion against the Lord of the Sabbath compels them to construct doctrines which they vainly employ as a covering for their rebellion - which will prove as useless in the day of Judgment as the fig leaves were in Eden.
 

face2face

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Phoneman777 said:
Jesus is our sinless Example which we as Christians are to emulate, both in word, which includes such absolutism, and deed.
I will take that as a resounding no and smite my chest.
 

zeke25

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Questor said:
It’s been a while since I was here…I was surprised to see this debate going on so long, and so pointlessly.
It is said that people that are persuaded against their own opinion are of the same opinion still. For seven months you have been arguing what commandments apply to Christians, firmly disavowing all that was given in the Sinai Covenant, and the covenants before them, while grasping on to the ‘New’ Covenant, that isn’t yet in force, and indeed, was never promised to anyone but the Israelites.

We Gentiles are only promised a blessing in Abraham, and have received it though his Seed, Yeshua. As Sha’ul said,

16 Now if the challah offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!
22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off! Romans 11:16-22 (CJB)


The Olive Tree is the symbol of Israel, and being grafted into her, we become Israelites after the spirit, because of our salvation in Yeshua, but even so, the New Covenant will not be in effect until Yeshua comes, and we that believe in him are made Incorrupt, with all of Torah written inside of us. Until that time, only our faith and the actions we take based on that faith in conjunction with the help of the Ruach haKodesh keep us in Yeshua, and that if we do not attempt to grow, and bear fruit, we will be broken back off of the Olive Tree, and thrown into the fire.

13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work
14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them!
15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!
16 Now if the challah offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree,
18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you.
19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust…So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you!
22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!
23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in.
24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!
25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won’t imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra’el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness;
26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved.As the Tanakh says, “Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya‘akov
27 and this will be my covenant with them,... when I take away their sins.”
28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs’ sake,
29 for God’s free gifts and his calling are irrevocable.
30 Just as you yourselves were disobedient to God before but have received mercy now because of Isra’el’s disobedience;
31 so also Isra’el has been disobedient now, so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they too may now receive God’s mercy.
32 For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all. Romans 11:13-32 (CJB)


The law of love and the law of liberty have been much spoken of on this thread, but no one seems to be at all concerned with what kind of difference our love for G-d, and for each other are supposed to make in us, and for that matter in the Jews that were the first to receive Yeshua as Mashiach, and be filled with the ‘earnest deposit’ of the Ruach ha Kodesh.

The New Covenant that we wait for in such impatience will write all of Torah on the Believer’s heart…Jew or Gentile, because we are to rule and reign with Yeshua, and be always with him. There will be no difference between us…the wall of partition will be completely down, and there will be nothing left to fight over, for we will all know the Torah as Yeshua gives it.

The New Covenant is not a change in the commandments that G-d has given to Man through the Jews, but how we are enabled to keep them. The Jews fight against the heavy burden of the Torah, but they at least try…those that are Jews that are in Mashiach…Messianic Jews, just as I am a Messianic Gentile. Most Christians of Protestant denominations avoid the commandments of the Torah like the plague, and rest only in the grace of G-d through Yeshua, and their walk of faith according to what is taught in the Brit Chadashah. That's fine for salvation, but not much for blessings now, or future reward.

Yeshua said, ” Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!” Matthew 5:17-20 (CJB)


Please note that it says “until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. “ That means until after the Millennium, when Yeshua turns the Kingdom back to YHVH, and the earth and heavens are destroyed, and a new heaven and earth given us.

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had passed away, and the sea was no longer there.
2 Also I saw the holy city, New Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “See! God’s Sh’khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God. Revelation 21:1-3 (CJB)


Now, someone may say correctly that Gentiles are not obligated to keep or observe Torah. Salvation for Jew or Gentile is only through Yeshua, and has nothing to do with the Torah. Keeping any of the commandments while a Gentile or a Jew according to the manmade Laws of the Pharisees (Currently called Orthodox Jews) is not necessary for our salvation, and the grace we receive in Yeshua. But that is not why Believers of any church or synagogue should keep those commandments in the Torah to the extent they are able to do so.

We are to be in obedience to the extent of our understanding and ability to G-d, and to Yeshua both. Loving G-d is expressed quite clearly in the first 4 commandments given at Sinai, as our love for one another is defined in the next 6 of the remainder of the commandments given at Sinai, which describes moral law.

Loving Yeshua leads us to go farther than ever any non-believing Jew did before Yeshua…to do not only the outward semblance of obedience to Torah, but to keep the heart of the Torah. To not only refrain from killing, but to refrain from hating, and to not merely refrain from adultery in action, but in deed, and to not steal, but not look longingly another’s belongings, or envy them their good fortune.

We certainly are to be all that Yeshua told us to do…to be as much like him as we can, for love of him. This is what Discipleship is…making oneself over into an accurate copy of the one we love. Yeshua was a Jew, and I was born a Gentile, but that does not keep me from thinking that to honor the Father, I should remember the Sabbath, and keep it holy, because G-d so much delights in it when we do so; it is what Yeshua did himself; and it is what we will be doing in the Kingdom of G-d…all the way until the world is remade, and G-d comes to rule us Himself.

The directions for the Sabbath are to do no laborious or creative work, to stay home, and have a holy convocation…with your family and friends. All the rest of the rules about the Sabbath were made up to keep Jews from inadvertently breaking the Sabbath in the times when it would have gotten someone stoned to death, and alas, they are tied up in knots in their rules and legalism because it is the way they stayed a separate people from AD 70 onwards.

There are other laws we should keep that we will keep in future, but they are not mandatory now for Gentiles. However, Yeshua isn’t about what is mandatory, but what you will give him of your own choice and free will for love of him.

The Moedim, the G-d appointed feast days of Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot will be mandatory in the Kingdom for the entire world to keep, even non-believers, and on penalty of lack of rain to water their crops. Why then do we not for love keep them now? And eating clean foods over unclean foods…one of my friends nearly died from eating some fully cooked ham when he was infested with massive tapeworms, and frankly, though I miss bacon, I can do without it, yet if I find some bacon was in my pea-soup, I don’t freak out either, because G-d does know what I am attempting to do outside of any community of like believers, and that I do it only for Him.

Many on this thread have been saying a lot about love being the motivating force for obedience to what is written in Scripture, Old and New Testaments, but then cast aside the first five Books of the Bible like they were some punishment from G-d to attempt to keep, and yet most Believers know that if they do not Tithe, G-d tends to withhold blessings that would automatically be theirs because of their lack of helping others, just as G-d does not bless those who live in sinful ways, or in anger and unforgiveness.

There are reasons to teach and to keep the commandments in the first five Books of the Bible…they determine not our salvation, but our reward in the Kingdom, and G-d's willingness to bless us extraordinarily now. Why? G-d believes in incentives to good behavior, and the better your behavior and character, the more G-d can bless you in this world and use you to His benefit, and to further His purposes.

And so, I do what G-d and Yeshua have instructed to the best of my ability, based on the plain descriptions in the Scriptures, and no more. I sincerely believe that every Believer should voluntarily do all that G-d desires as it is written in the Scripture, and I pray that you will consider this as you walk towards the Day of the Lord…it’s getting very evident that time is getting short.
Questor,

I assume you keep the sabbath. Which one do you keep? And why?

You are self-described as a messianic gentile. Let's see, isn't that someone who believes in the messiah of Israel, even though they are not Jewish? Isn't that, in other words, a Christian? Aren't you a Christian?

zeke25
 

face2face

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Phoneman777 said:
F2F, the claim you made that the Old Covenant is the Law is a major point of contention, so please stop clouding the discussion with other ideas that we can get to later and focus on this, OK? What is your comment regarding our inability to replace "the Law" with "Old Covenant" in Romans 3:31 KJV and do you admit that the inability to do so proves that your claim that "the Old Covenant, the law..." in which you equate the one with the other, is not Biblical?
If one is a covenant-breaker have they also not broken the terms of Law and the Commandments?
What is the difference then of one sinning "without the Law" compared to one "sinning within the Law?"
Ultimately you will concede the OT Covenant was established by Law - A Law which the people agreed to do everything it said.
Yahweh's covenant with Israel was based upon His Law given at Sinai. The nation assembled before the awesome mount, and received a code of instructions at the hands of the angels. This memorial remained with the Jew, as he relied upon the ritual formalism of that which is represented by Sinai (See Gal. 4:25).
F2F
 

WalterandDebbie

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Trekson said:
[SIZE=12pt]Seventh Day Adventists and Messianic Jews are two of the many denominations that erroneously teach that proper Sabbath Keeping is vital to ones' salvation. They believe in observing the Sabbath the traditional Jewish way which begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday and restricts the amount and types of daily activities that they can do. They argue that the commandment to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" (Ex. 20:8) was one of the ten commandments and if we obey the other nine commandments then we should honor the Sabbath in the old way as well.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]What was the original purpose of the Sabbath? It was to give man a day of rest from his labors as exampled by God when He rested on the seventh day of creation. When God told Moses to "keep it holy", He was expanding it to include worship of God as well on that day of rest. Throughout the Old Testament years the Pharisees increasingly made keeping the Sabbath very restrictive, for example, by limiting the number of steps you could walk.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Jesus, much to the consternation of the Pharisees, seemed to enjoy flaunting the Sabbath.

Matt 12:2-8: "When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." (NIV)

Matt 12:10-12: "and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" 11 He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." (NIV)

John 5:10-11: and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat." 11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk." (NIV)

John 5:17-18: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (NIV)

We can see by this last verse that God and Jesus are always working. Apparently they do not take a Sabbath rest. It would be a sad thing indeed if God closed up shop on the seventh day and refused to hear and answer prayers because He was resting. According to Strong's Concordance the word "holy" is defined as: "To be clean, to consecrate, dedicate, to keep, prepare, proclaim and to purify and sanctify oneself."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Let's take a look at what the bible has to say about these aspects of our holiness.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1. Clean - Jesus says, "John 15:3 - "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2. Consecrate - Heb 10:20 - "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" (KJV) Through His death we are consecrated unto God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]3. Dedicate - As Christians we dedicate our lives to His service.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]4. Keep - Phil 4:7 - "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (KJV) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]5. Prepare - Heb 10:8-10: "First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Jesus prepared the way for us! We have been made holy by His sacrifice. Nothing we do will make us any holier than what Christ has done for us. When we stand before God, he isn't going to look at our works or whether we kept the law or not regarding our salvation. The only thing He will look for is whether or not we have the blood of His Son covering us, for our righteousness (our efforts to be law keepers) are as filthy rags before Him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]6. Proclaim - By our living testimony we proclaim to the world our faith in Christ and every time we witness we are proclaiming the gospel.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]7. Purify - Titus 2:14 - "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]8. Sanctify - Heb 13:12 - "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." (KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Christ has accomplished all that was necessary to make us holy. Observing a day set aside for His honor can bring about nothing that hasn't already been done for us. The problem many people have is in not recognizing that in Heb 4:1-10: God redefined the Sabbath. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1 "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." (NIV)

As verse 10 points out, we enter that Sabbath rest automatically when we believe in Him and make Him Lord of our life. Jesus, through His life and death did everything for us spiritually that the Sabbath was supposed to do. That is why He continually stated that "the Son of Man was Lord of the Sabbath." It is in and through Him that we rest and keep the Sabbath. Those who make a big deal about setting aside a certain day for worship are proclaiming that what Christ did for us wasn't good enough. They are saying that the Sabbath becomes holy through our observance of it and physically observing it the way the law originally intended. They have not yet realized that the New Covenant did away with all the past observances. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Christ gave us two laws to obey: Matt 22:36-40: "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]These two commandments are the only ones we as Christians need to concern ourselves with. The love we have for God and each other fulfills the requirements of the law as Paul explains in Rom 13:8-10: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]If we obey the law of love for God and each other then we are fulfilling the requirements of the Sabbath rest and have no need of an additional day. To believe otherwise would be like telling God, "Ok, I followed you and obeyed you all week long but now because it's the Sabbath day, I really mean it this time." People who are Sabbath-keepers also fail to realize that our living bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We now have God residing within us. We are the 24/7 residence of He who dwelt in the inner sanctuary of the Holy of Holies. That makes us the temple so how can going to another building on a special day make us any holier? What can a calendar day do for us that the Holy Spirit residing within us can't do? My answer is…absolutely nothing![/SIZE]
We do appreciate the above post, we also would say that as a follower of the Messiah: I Peter 2:21
 

Questor

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Phoneman777 said:
The axiom is "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." The problem is not that anyone here is convinced against his will - the problem is that some here are convinced against His will.

There is simply no justification in claiming that the Ten Commandments do not apply to Christians, for if that is the case, then please be the first to publicly proclaim which other of the Ten Commandments we may freely break as freely as is claimed that we may break the seventh day Sabbath. To date, those who are of this position have exposed themselves as too cowardly to publicly declare such, which reveals that they really don't believe that Christians are at liberty to break the Ten Commandments, but their rebellion against the Lord of the Sabbath compels them to construct doctrines which they vainly employ as a covering for their rebellion - which will prove as useless in the day of Judgment as the fig leaves were in Eden.
" the problem is that some here are convinced against His will". VERY Apt.

I believe that all Believers in Yeshua should become like their Savior, and do as he did, keeping all the commandments that applied to Yeshua...with a minimum of the Big Ten...not because Christians have to, but because obedience to G-d is what Yeshua asked us to do.

Not keeping the Ten Commandments is a bit like an arrogant, selfish Teenager saying to G-d, "I won't, because You, G-d, never said specifically in Act's 15 that I had to. The reason the Jerusalem Conference didn't demand adherence to the Sinai Covenant is that they were not granting ownership right in the land of Judea...just acknowledging that salvation was a gift of G-d, and a few things might be best avoided to maintain table fellowship with the Nazarene Jews they might meet there, while going each week on the Sabbath to hear Moses read.

Acts 15:6-29 (CJB)
6 The emissaries and the elders met to look into this matter.
7 After lengthy debate, Kefa got up and said to them, “Brothers, you yourselves know that a good while back, God chose me from among you to be the one by whose mouth the Goyim should hear the message of the Good News and come to trust.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore them witness by giving the Ruach HaKodesh to them, just as he did to us;
9 that is, he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their heart by trust.
10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear?
11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered — and it’s the same with them.”
12 Then the whole assembly kept still as they listened to Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul tell what signs and miracles God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13 Ya‘akov broke the silence to reply. “Brothers,” he said, “hear what I have to say.
14 Shim‘on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name.
15 And the words of the Prophets are in complete harmony with this for it is written,
16
‘“After this, I will return;
and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it,
17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name,”
18 says Adonai, who is doing these things.’ All this has been known for ages.
19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”

22 Then the emissaries and the elders, together with the whole Messianic community, decided to select men from among themselves to send to Antioch with Sha’ul and Bar-Nabba. They sent Y’hudah, called Bar-Sabba, and Sila, both leading men among the brothers,
23 with the following letter: From:The emissaries and the elders, your brothers To:The brothers from among the Gentiles throughout Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings!
24 We have heard that some people went out from among us without our authorization, and that they have upset you with their talk, unsettling your minds.
25 So we have decided unanimously to select men and send them to you with our dear friends Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to upholding the name of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.
27 So we have sent Y’hudah and Sila, and they will confirm in person what we are writing.
28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom!



Obviously, there are far too many people living on the mere fact of salvation, and walking around saying they love everyone, but they never do anything to show G-d that they love Him. Love is a thing that you do, not something you idealistically reverence.
 

Questor

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zeke25 said:
Questor,

I assume you keep the sabbath. Which one do you keep? And why?

You are self-described as a messianic gentile. Let's see, isn't that someone who believes in the messiah of Israel, even though they are not Jewish? Isn't that, in other words, a Christian? Aren't you a Christian?

zeke25
Yup, I'm a Christian by baptism into Calvary Chapel 45 years ago (being 60), but I prefer the non-denominational 'Messianic Gentile' because I witness to Jews online, and like to speak in their mindset and language uses so that I do not instantly remind them of Luther burning Jews; Nazis shooting or gassing them; Catholics torturing them, and forcing them to give up Judaism even if they loved Yeshua; or Presbyterians and Anglicans smiling and nodding at them, before they shut the doors in their face. As best I can tell, Baptists and Methodist were more polite, but I doubt that Jews can keep our denominations straight. There are Sabbatarian cults in my neighborhood, but I do not belong to any because I don't believe what they believe about Yeshua, and they keep re-interpreting the Bible to further their control of their members.

I go to the Greek Scriptures, and to the Hebrew Translations, though for beauty you cannot beat the New King James Version of the Scriptures. It remains my favorite. However, the Complete Jewish Bible translated from the Hebrew and Greek into English by an American Jewish Scholar is the most accurate on catching all the Hebrew Idioms that were carried into the Greek, and mistranslated into Latin, then French, German, and finally English, so I use that to quote from. I am also studying both Biblical and Modern Hebrew because I really like to dig into the 'Good Book'.

As to the Sabbath, I rest on Saturday from Sunset Friday Night to Sunset Saturday, upon which, I then keep Sunday as well. I keep all the other days in Yeshua too, but Saturday is the only day I do not work, because G-d didn't do any work on the Sabbath, and He is really open about the fact that He loves best those people who honor Him by honoring His commandments.

G-d rested on the Sabbath day to enjoy His creation, because He called it good, very good. I sit back on Shabbat on Saturdays, and relish all that G-d has given me, to have and accomplish. There is no Messianic Synagogue nearby alas, and just switching days of worship is not the point of keeping Shabbat, so I kick back and really delight in being quietly at home. Remembering the Sabbath to keep it holy (separate) from the rest of the week, and what I do in that week, and enjoying G-d's gifts is what I do, and what is commanded by G-d. Sundays are for fellowship, prayer, study and praise...though I admit, I do that even on Shabbat as well, because I enjoy those things.
 

Axehead

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It is not said in the Book,
“The Word became printer’s ink,”
but it is said,
“The Word became flesh.”
Had the Word become printer’s ink,
we should have followed a code.
Instead our code is a Character.
We follow a living mind
instead of a fixed letter.
–E. Stanley Jones
(1884 – 1973)
 

Questor

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Axehead said:
It is not said in the Book,
“The Word became printer’s ink,”
but it is said,
“The Word became flesh.”
Had the Word become printer’s ink,
we should have followed a code.
Instead our code is a Character.
We follow a living mind
instead of a fixed letter.
–E. Stanley Jones
(1884 – 1973)

Did you have a point you were trying to make by quoting a non-Biblical source?
 

whitestone

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Jesus is my God. And I walk in His Rest and do righteously every day of the week exactly as he did. I've ceased from my own labors long ago when I took his light yoke upon me. Now I am in the Holy Land of Rest for evermore.

That is what the O.T. shadow/type of the seventh day rest is fulfilled in. We live in the reality of His Sabbath Rest now, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. It is no longer a once a week ritual, now that we possess the reality in Rest in Christ Forever. The Seventy day Sabbath is abolished, so that we can live in the Day of the Lord Always in Rest :) Thank you Jesus our Messiah of Israel!
 

zeke25

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Questor said:
Yup, I'm a Christian by baptism into Calvary Chapel 45 years ago (being 60), but I prefer the non-denominational 'Messianic Gentile' because I witness to Jews online, and like to speak in their mindset and language uses so that I do not instantly remind them of Luther burning Jews; Nazis shooting or gassing them; Catholics torturing them, and forcing them to give up Judaism even if they loved Yeshua; or Presbyterians and Anglicans smiling and nodding at them, before they shut the doors in their face. As best I can tell, Baptists and Methodist were more polite, but I doubt that Jews can keep our denominations straight. There are Sabbatarian cults in my neighborhood, but I do not belong to any because I don't believe what they believe about Yeshua, and they keep re-interpreting the Bible to further their control of their members.

I go to the Greek Scriptures, and to the Hebrew Translations, though for beauty you cannot beat the New King James Version of the Scriptures. It remains my favorite. However, the Complete Jewish Bible translated from the Hebrew and Greek into English by an American Jewish Scholar is the most accurate on catching all the Hebrew Idioms that were carried into the Greek, and mistranslated into Latin, then French, German, and finally English, so I use that to quote from. I am also studying both Biblical and Modern Hebrew because I really like to dig into the 'Good Book'.

As to the Sabbath, I rest on Saturday from Sunset Friday Night to Sunset Saturday, upon which, I then keep Sunday as well. I keep all the other days in Yeshua too, but Saturday is the only day I do not work, because G-d didn't do any work on the Sabbath, and He is really open about the fact that He loves best those people who honor Him by honoring His commandments.

G-d rested on the Sabbath day to enjoy His creation, because He called it good, very good. I sit back on Shabbat on Saturdays, and relish all that G-d has given me, to have and accomplish. There is no Messianic Synagogue nearby alas, and just switching days of worship is not the point of keeping Shabbat, so I kick back and really delight in being quietly at home. Remembering the Sabbath to keep it holy (separate) from the rest of the week, and what I do in that week, and enjoying G-d's gifts is what I do, and what is commanded by G-d. Sundays are for fellowship, prayer, study and praise...though I admit, I do that even on Shabbat as well, because I enjoy those things.
Hi Questor,

Part of the problem and misunderstandings on this thread has been due to faulty interpretations of the Scriptures, particularly when it comes to Genesis and the sabbath. You claim to be "karaite". But in this last post you said: "G-d rested on the Sabbath day to enjoy His creation", which you apparently took from Genesis. The Bible does not teach about the Sabbath day in the book of Genesis. It does teach about entering God's rest, but the Sabbath is not introduced for another 2 ½ thousand years in Exodus 16:23.

Furthermore, Yahowah established a pattern of 6 days of work followed by a day of rest in Genesis. However, the seventh day of Creation Week was not a Saturday. Would you care to hear more?

zeke25
 

Phoneman777

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face2face said:
If one is a covenant-breaker have they also not broken the terms of Law and the Commandments?
What is the difference then of one sinning "without the Law" compared to one "sinning within the Law?"
Ultimately you will concede the OT Covenant was established by Law - A Law which the people agreed to do everything it said.
Yahweh's covenant with Israel was based upon His Law given at Sinai. The nation assembled before the awesome mount, and received a code of instructions at the hands of the angels. This memorial remained with the Jew, as he relied upon the ritual formalism of that which is represented by Sinai (See Gal. 4:25).
F2F
OK, have it your way. However, I cannot debate anyone who claims that "Old Covenant" is interchangeable with "the Law" because Romans 3:31 KJV proves this popular idea false. The Ten Commandments remain for Christians to obey because they love Jesus, and those who refuse to keep them evidence their hatred for Jesus, no matter what they profess.

"Hereby we do know that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3-4 KJV
 

Phoneman777

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whitestone said:
Jesus is my God. And I walk in His Rest and do righteously every day of the week exactly as he did. I've ceased from my own labors long ago when I took his light yoke upon me. Now I am in the Holy Land of Rest for evermore.

That is what the O.T. shadow/type of the seventh day rest is fulfilled in. We live in the reality of His Sabbath Rest now, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. It is no longer a once a week ritual, now that we possess the reality in Rest in Christ Forever. The Seventy day Sabbath is abolished, so that we can live in the Day of the Lord Always in Rest :) Thank you Jesus our Messiah of Israel!
The seventh day Sabbath rest was created in Eden as a memorial to Creation when there was no sin - there were no shadows because all was light. The "sabbath shadows" you speak of were the "feast days" which were instituted "besides the (weekly) Sabbaths of the Lord thy God." Leviticus 23:37-38 KJV

These were nailed to the Cross, but the Sabbath remains, the Church kept the Sabbath everywhere but was gradually replace with Sunday by ROME, and the Sabbath will be kept for all eternity. We all would do well to live down here as in the manner we will up there.
 

Phoneman777

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Questor said:
" the problem is that some here are convinced against His will". VERY Apt.

I believe that all Believers in Yeshua should become like their Savior, and do as he did, keeping all the commandments that applied to Yeshua...with a minimum of the Big Ten...not because Christians have to, but because obedience to G-d is what Yeshua asked us to do.

Not keeping the Ten Commandments is a bit like an arrogant, selfish Teenager saying to G-d, "I won't, because You, G-d, never said specifically in Act's 15 that I had to. The reason the Jerusalem Conference didn't demand adherence to the Sinai Covenant is that they were not granting ownership right in the land of Judea...just acknowledging that salvation was a gift of G-d, and a few things might be best avoided to maintain table fellowship with the Nazarene Jews they might meet there, while going each week on the Sabbath to hear Moses read.

Acts 15:6-29 (CJB)
6 The emissaries and the elders met to look into this matter.
7 After lengthy debate, Kefa got up and said to them, “Brothers, you yourselves know that a good while back, God chose me from among you to be the one by whose mouth the Goyim should hear the message of the Good News and come to trust.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore them witness by giving the Ruach HaKodesh to them, just as he did to us;
9 that is, he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their heart by trust.
10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear?
11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered — and it’s the same with them.”
12 Then the whole assembly kept still as they listened to Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul tell what signs and miracles God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13 Ya‘akov broke the silence to reply. “Brothers,” he said, “hear what I have to say.
14 Shim‘on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name.
15 And the words of the Prophets are in complete harmony with this for it is written,
16 ‘“After this, I will return; and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it,
17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name,”
18 says Adonai, who is doing these things.’ All this has been known for ages.
19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”

22 Then the emissaries and the elders, together with the whole Messianic community, decided to select men from among themselves to send to Antioch with Sha’ul and Bar-Nabba. They sent Y’hudah, called Bar-Sabba, and Sila, both leading men among the brothers,
23 with the following letter: From:The emissaries and the elders, your brothers To:The brothers from among the Gentiles throughout Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings!
24 We have heard that some people went out from among us without our authorization, and that they have upset you with their talk, unsettling your minds.
25 So we have decided unanimously to select men and send them to you with our dear friends Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to upholding the name of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.
27 So we have sent Y’hudah and Sila, and they will confirm in person what we are writing.
28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom!



Obviously, there are far too many people living on the mere fact of salvation, and walking around saying they love everyone, but they never do anything to show G-d that they love Him. Love is a thing that you do, not something you idealistically reverence.
Brother, there are two kinds of people in the world: those who love and obey God and those who are lost.
  1. The obedient love Him and consequently are empowered by Him to turn from sin.
  2. Those who refuse to obey Him are lost because they lack the desire and power to obey that Jesus provides to those who love Him.
. Such an unpopular truth in this day and age, but nice to see some of us willing to preach it. :)
 
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