All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

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John Zain

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[SIZE=10pt]If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ …[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]and NOT at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Unfortunately, there is just not enough space to fully quote all of the Scripture references![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 24:21-31[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]until this time, no, nor ever shall be. … Immediately after the tribulation of those days [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]from one end of heaven to the other.” (parallel passages are in Mark 13 & Luke 21)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]There are only 2 Resurrections[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • But the pre-trib doctrine teaches 3 resurrections[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]John 5:28-29 [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]… Luke 14:14Acts 24:15Daniel 12:2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• These passages clearly state that there are 2 resurrections:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]resurrection of life for the good & just …and… resurrection of condemnation for the evil & unjust.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 20:4-12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• This passage clearly states that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The first resurrection (Rev 20:4-6) is for Christians -- non-Christians are raised 1000 years later.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Now, exactly WHEN is the resurrection of Christians?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Last Trumpet[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST trumpet[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Thessalonians 4:16-17[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] … 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• These 2 passages describe the resurrection of ALL dead Christians. They also say Christians [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]who are alive on earth will be “changed” and will meet the resurrected ones “in the clouds”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And 1 Corinthians 15:51 says this will happen at the LAST trumpet.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• The pre-trib doctrine teaches that Christians living in the last generation will [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]be changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]If the dead Christians are resurrected at the same time as the rapture (before the tribulation),[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]It’s impossible, because there are only 2 resurrections: 1 for Christians and 1 for the lost.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]However, pre-trib falsely teaches 3 resurrections: 2 for Christians and 1 for the lost.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The firstfruits[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • Only Jesus is the “firstfruits”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Corinthians 15:23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• This verse clearly states that Jesus is the “firstfruits”, but pre-trib teaches the raptured saints are![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Also, “the dead in Christ” refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ (1 Thes 4:17 above).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]So, how could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]There will be Christians alive at that time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]But, Scripture says ALL dead Christians will be resurrected from the dead, and then …[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]the Christians who are alive shall be caught up together with them (1 Thes 4:17 above).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Last Day[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • Raptured on the last day before the tribulation starts? lol[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]John 6:39-54[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• 4 times in these verses, Jesus clearly says the dead believers will be raised up on the LAST day![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]How can the rapture doctrine have the dead in Christ rising first (1 Thessalonians 4:16)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]followed by a rapture, if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]### How many last days are there?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]the tribulation and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Pre-trib says the dead Christians meet the Lord in the air (along with the living Christians) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]before the tribulation period … unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Elect[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • Please refer to Matthew 24 above![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Pre-trib says “His elect” is some group of Jewish believers! But, this is absurd, for example:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel” and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]-- Writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Days of Noah[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • They were similar to the times we are in today.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 24:37-44[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] … [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Luke 17:26-37[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] … Matthew 24:28 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• In Matthew 24:39, the flood “took” all of the non-believers away (destroying them).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]In Luke 17:37, the disciples asked Jesus where half of these people were “taken”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt](they didn’t ask where half of these people were “left”). His response was like, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather together.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Those “taken” are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles circle overhead.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]“For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.” (Matthew 24:28)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Matthew 24:39 says that immediately preceding the flood, no one had any idea that [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]destruction was about to fall upon them … and [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]“so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Most church people are not expecting danger … they are expecting to be raptured.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]They are the ones who [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]“[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]did not know until the flood came and took them all away” (Matt 24:39).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be “taken” away are taken away to destruction![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]But, some believers today are like Noah and his family who spent 120 years building the Ark.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and tribulation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The true believer is among those who will remain, while the others are taken to be destroyed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Yes, the believers do NOT KNOW that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Because [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]“the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT EXPECT.” (Matthew 24:44).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Many Christians do NOT KNOW they soon will be facing incredible persecution (even unto death)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And a bit later, Christians who refuse to take the mark will not be able to buy anything![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Coming upon you as a thief[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • This is strictly a negative event, not a positive one![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 3:[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]2-3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Paul is writing to those who KNOW the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This group is [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]“all sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thes 5:5).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]But, the other group who is of the night and darkness, and says “Peace and safety!”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]… sudden destruction will come upon them and they shall not escape.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• All of the 15 NT verses which refer to Christ’s coming as a thief … refer to His second coming [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]at the end of the tribulation period … because they talk about the last trumpet, the last day, etc.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 24:43[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] … John 10:102 Peter 3:10[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]1 Thes 5:2-3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]E.G. In 2 Peter 3:10, the Day of the Lord comes as a thief to destroy the heavens and the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Thessalonians 5:4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• The above clearly says Christians will be on the earth when “this Day” arrives![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]And some of them will be prepared for that Day because they have been watching and anticipating.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 16:15 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• In this verse (and Revelation 3:2-3), believers are told to watch and Christ is referred to as a thief.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]of Armaggedon, Christ says: “I will come upon you as a thief” (Revelation 3:3) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Day of the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] • The Day of God’s wrath at Jesus’ second coming at the end of the tribulation![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Thessalonians 5:2[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] … 2 Peter 3:10 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Above, both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the second coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-tribulation return of Jesus Christ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 great examples are Isaiah 13:6-9 and 2 Peter 3:10.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Matthew 24:29-31 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord at the very end of the tribulation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]However, some believe the Day of the Lord actually begins at some fictional pre-tribulation rapture![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:10 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• There is no way this verse about the Day of the Lord can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]SUMMARY FROM SCRIPTURE[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Matthew 24 says the elect will be gathered AFTER the tribulation period![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• There are 2 resurrections: first the good and just, then (1000 years later) the evil and unjust![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• The resurrection of ALL dead Christians is at the LAST TRUMPET on the LAST DAY![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• Jesus coming as a thief in the night is strictly a NEGATIVE EVENT, not a positive one![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]• The Day of the Lord is the Day of God’s wrath at Jesus’ second coming at the end of the tribulation![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Even though Scripture teaches otherwise …[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Satan’s extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains alive and well on planet earth![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Perhaps the worst mistake you can ever make is to assume that the pre-trib rapture is correct.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]This disastrous error can mean the loss of both of your lives … yes physical & spiritual both![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Satan is the most incredible liar & deceiver, so trust the Scriptures instead of trusting in man![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Believe me, a lot of money has been made by “ticking the ears” of unsuspecting Christians.[/SIZE]
 

justaname

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Check out this verse...

1 Thessalonians 3:13
so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

When He returns His saints will be with Him...

Also the depiction given in Revelation states at the sixth seal is the wrath of the Lamb (cf. Rev 6:16) and what is described is what is described here (Matthew 24:21-31[SIZE=10pt])[/SIZE]...Paul exclaims Christ's Church is not to endure His wrath, yet the earth still is to endure the trumpets and bowels from this point.


Personally I am a mid-tribber.
 

John Zain

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justaname said:
1 Thessalonians 3:13
at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

When He returns His saints will be with Him...
IMO, if you check, you might find that the Greek here means holy ones (angels).
 

justaname

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evangelist-7 said:
IMO, if you check, you might find that the Greek here means holy ones (angels).
Holy Ones is saints...Aggelos is angels.
 

pompadour

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Justaname: You will not change their minds and They will not change OUR minds. I believe in the Mid trib. based on many scriptures.
The Jewish wedding is a good description of the Mid Trib. In my opinion. You know the 10 virgins parable.
Pomp.
 

Trekson

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Hi E-7, While much of your post does effectively deal with the pre-trib theology, it doesn't have the same effect on other rapture theories so if your main point is anti-pretrib, good job. If it's anti- any rapture at all, then it's woefully insufficient.
 

John Zain

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Trekson said:
Hi E-7, While much of your post does effectively deal with the pre-trib theology,
it doesn't have the same effect on other rapture theories so if your main point is anti-pretrib, good job.
If it's anti- any rapture at all, then it's woefully insufficient.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious that I was only disproving pre-trib.
 

ewq1938

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Midtrib is also incorrect and only a handful of verses is needed:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming.
2. the resurrection.
3. the rapture.

This proves the pre-trib and mid-trib rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
 

ATP

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Tribulation is God's wrath, and believers are not appointed to wrath. Rapture comes before trib.
 

Short-timer

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ATP said:
Tribulation is God's wrath, and believers are not appointed to wrath. Rapture comes before trib.
You're right.

The Tribulations and second coming is mentioned throughout the OT, but Jesus/church and the Rapture being a "Mystery" not revealed to them, nothing is said about a Rapture.

God used the "Law and Prophets", "Signs and wonders" to lead Israel in the OT, these stopped with John/Jesus, they never had a "Comforter/Holy Ghost".

Jesus uses the Comforter/HG to lead/guide the church, he won't give signs and wonders, and the church is not "under the law", but under "GRACE" from the law.

With the "Fulness of the Gentiles", the Church Rapture, Israel (world) goes back under the "Law and Prophets" (Two witnesses, Moses=law, Elijah=prophet) and "Signs and wonders" during the Trib. (Tribulation)

Obviously, the world can't be under the law and not under the law, at the same time, which is why the law stopped when Jesus came and Grace started.


The differences in the way God lead Israel in the OT and Jesus leads the church is obvious to everyone, but few seem to see these differences reverting back to the OT way when the trib starts,

And few understand why Grace must stop (Rapture) and they have to revert back to the "Law and Prophets". with "Signs and wonders".

If you've ever heard someone ask "why doesn't God work today as he did in the OT"??? this is why.
 

ATP

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Short-timer said:
but Jesus/church and the Rapture being a "Mystery" not revealed to them, nothing is said about a Rapture.
Hi Short. Can you clarify this statement. So you do not believe in a rapture?
 

ewq1938

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Short-timer said:
You're right.

No, it is not right. Scripture explicitly says the rapture comes after the trib has ended. There is no possibility of a pre-trib rapture. It is desired so badly man created it from a handful of misused and misunderstood scriptures while ignoring the few that literally say it's after the trib.
 

Short-timer

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ATP said:
Hi Short. Can you clarify this statement. So you do not believe in a rapture?
Yes, I believer in a rapture, Here's what I was referring too.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Israel was expecting a "Messiah" who would come as the Bible describes in the "Second Coming", a conquering "KING", setup his Kingdom, which we call the Millinium Kingdom. (MK)

They wasn't expecting a "Suffering Messiah", dying and setting up a "Spiritual Kingdom" (within you) especially with the "Gentiles/Samaritians", whom they had no dealing with..

This is why Jesus/Church is a "Mystery" to them, even today, and why Jesus became a "Stumbling block" to Israel.


I find most can't explain God's purpose for the Trib, anyone can read "What" happens, but most can't explain "WHY" it happens, using the scriptures.

Without that info you can't determine who would be "Accounted worthy" to escape or enter the trib.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,


Most everyone knows the relationship between the first four "feast" and events in the NT, (Passover/unleaven bread/firstfruit/pentecost) but here again, I find few can explain the last three Feast, (feast of Trumpets/Day of Atonement/Tabernacles) and their relationship to events still to come.

Feast:
http://i25.tinypic.com/2e0mp6t.jpg

Scripture gives us "Precepts" that explains what God does and "WHY" he does it, so "WHY" is the most important question you can ask about any event in scripture.

"WHY", are some people taken to the Lamb's marriage and other "Not worthy" to attend???

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. (Israel)

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.


"WHY" does the church have a promise of meeting Jesus is the air and return to heaven for this wedding while those accounted unworthy do not???

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

"WHY" does the "Fulness of the Gentiles" have to occur "BEFORE" the blnders can come off Israel,

and just what event does the fulness of the Gentiles represent??? (hint, rapture)

"WHY" does this "Comforter/Holy Ghost", who is "Greater than Satan/AC" have to be "Taken out of the way" before the AC is revealed with all his "Lying signs and wonders"???

And "WHY" did the start of the Church/Grace period stop the OT "Law and Prophets", and Daniels 70 week prophecy at the end of the 69th week,

and "WHY" can't these return to finish Daniel's prophecy until the Church/Grace period also stops??? (rapture)

An awful lot of scripture must be ignored not to believe is a "Pre Trib Rapture".
 

Short-timer

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ewq1938 said:
No, it is not right. Scripture explicitly says the rapture comes after the trib has ended. There is no possibility of a pre-trib rapture. It is desired so badly man created it from a handful of misused and misunderstood scriptures while ignoring the few that literally say it's after the trib.

Mr 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

By the end of the trib this world will be in a condition that "NO FLESH", Man/animal/fish, could surive,

The "ONLY THING" preventing the complete extinction of "LIFE" on this planet will be Jesus returning.


Every Nuclear/Biological/Chemical weapon the world has will be used,

Plus the "Natural disasters",

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Re 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent:(60 pounds)

Re 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat,



Isa said this about the number of survivors.

Isa 10:19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

I'd read all the verses between 16-25

"Our Flesh" is a "Body of sin", an enemy of God,

God destroyed all flesh once in the flood, save 8 soul, and there might not be many more than that survive the trib.
 

ewq1938

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Short-timer said:
Mr 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

By the end of the trib this world will be in a condition that "NO FLESH", Man/animal/fish, could surive,

The "ONLY THING" preventing the complete extinction of "LIFE" on this planet will be Jesus returning.


Every Nuclear/Biological/Chemical weapon the world has will be used,

Plus the "Natural disasters",

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Re 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent:(60 pounds)

Re 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat,



Isa said this about the number of survivors.

Isa 10:19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

I'd read all the verses between 16-25

"Our Flesh" is a "Body of sin", an enemy of God,

God destroyed all flesh once in the flood, save 8 soul, and there might not be many more than that survive the trib.

And?

I have already posted the scripture which literally say the rapture comes after the tribulation has ended. No other scripture conflicts with that. No scripture ever supports anything other than a post trib rapture.
 

justaname

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ewq1938 said:
Midtrib is also incorrect and only a handful of verses is needed:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming.
2. the resurrection.
3. the rapture.

This proves the pre-trib and mid-trib rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
This theory suggests 1Th 4:16 refers to the resurrection...

That is open for debate.
 

ewq1938

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justaname said:
This theory suggests 1Th 4:16 refers to the resurrection...

That is open for debate.
How? It literally says the dead will rise which is a resurrection and it identifies them as those who died as Christians. Debate against this being the resurrection would be foolish IMO.

"and the dead in Christ shall rise first"
 

justaname

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Then the dead in Christ will be resurrected, that is, believers of this dispensation will be raised. Old Testament saints will evidently be raised at the end of the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:2), for the phrase “in Christ” refers exclusively to Church-Age saints. The bodies of the dead in Christ will rise before the living Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:17).

Bible Knowledge Commentary


By means of these agents God gives his command, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Not all the dead will be raised at this time, but only those who have entered into a relationship with Christ before their death (cf. “the dead in Christ” in 1 Cor. 15:18; Rev. 14:13). The point Paul wished to drive home with the Thessalonians, however, is not simply that the dead in Christ will rise but that this event will occur first. The dead will not remain in their tombs and lose the opportunity of going out to receive their sovereign Lord, but before the grand entourage goes out they will be raised. They will have a place of privilege, if not preeminence, in this grand procession, which is described in the following verse.

Pillar New Testament Commentary

At the command, the voice, and the trumpet “the dead in Christ will rise.” There is no mention of non-Christian dead in these verses (cf. 2:16; 2 Thess 1:6–10). Likewise there is no discussion of the resurrection body or of the manner in which the living are translated (cf. 1 Cor 15:35–54). Paul was presenting information to comfort a church grieving like those who had no hope. So that which claimed all his attention was the fact that the resurrected Christian dead will join with the Christian living at the parousia and together they will share the presence of the Lord on that day and forever. “First” is the final word of v. 16. “After that” (epeita), the first word of v. 17, “does not have a strong temporal sense.” It indicates a sequence of events, but almost immediately the two events are blended into a single occurrence as the resurrected dead join the living and both are “caught up … to meet the Lord.”

The New American Commentary


Perhaps better language by me would have been it depends on how you view the resurrection and its timing...
 

ewq1938

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justaname said:
The bodies of the dead in Christ will rise before the living Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:17).

Exactly and guess what verse 16 shows:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


So, the resurrection does in fact happen prior to the living being "caught up" which is the rapture, the Greek word being HARPAZO, which translated to the Latin Rapio, to the English word Rapture.

The rapture happens after the second coming and the second coming happens after the end of the trib.

Good stuff!