The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations

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keras

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[SIZE=medium]Obadiah 1:15-21 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations, they will be treated as they have treated others and their wrong actions will recoil upon themselves. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] then all the nations in turn will drink of it and be devastated by it. But in Jerusalem there will be a holy remnant, the Lord’s people will be like a flame while the[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] House of Esau will be burnt up with no survivors. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]My people will possess all of the holy Land that was given to Abraham and [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]those in Jerusalem who lead My people[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] will control the lands of the Edomites, but the Kingdom belongs to the Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 28:21-22 The Lord will arise as He did at Mt Perazim and in the valley of Gibeon[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], and storm with rage to do what He must do, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]to perform His task – a strange and alien deed[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. But now, have done with all arrogance and pride or the Lord will increase His punishment, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]for destruction is decreed over the whole Land.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 26:10-11 Lord: Your hand is lifted high and Your enemies can’t see Your good will toward Your people. [Let them see and be ashamed.] [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Let the fire reserved for Your enemies consume them. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]The wicked are destroyed, they have never learnt justice, they are corrupt and blinded to Your Majesty and power.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Micah 4:11-12 Now, many nations are massed against Israel,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] they say: Let Zion suffer outrage, we will [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]gloat over their demise[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. They are unaware of the Lord’s plans, for His purpose is to gather them like sheaves to the threshing floor. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Nahum 1:5 The earth quakes before the Lord, the world and all who live in it are in tumult. Who can stand before His wrath? Who can resist the fury of[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] His anger, poured out as fire?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The Lord will arise and storm with rage, as He did in ancient times’. [/SIZE]Jeremiah 30:23-24
[SIZE=medium]His task, strange and alien’. [/SIZE]We know God as a God of love, but also of justice and it is just to punish those who do not obey Him and who attack His Land. Isaiah 34:5
[SIZE=medium]destruction is decreed’. [/SIZE]The entire Middle East will be burnt and devastated. Ezekiel 30:3-5, Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1:3-15
[SIZE=medium]‘fire reserved for the Lord’s enemies will consume them, His anger poured out as fire’. [/SIZE] A massive sunstrike CME will fulfill all these prophesied effects. Deut. 32:22, Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1
[SIZE=medium]‘My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath’.[/SIZE] This will be the third ‘[SIZE=medium]swing of the sword’[/SIZE] Ezekiel 21:14, the final judgement of the Jewish people. Jeremiah 2:9, Eze.24:14
[SIZE=medium]‘now, many nations are massed against Israel’.[/SIZE] This perfectly describes the situation today and they want to ‘[SIZE=medium]gloat over her demise’[/SIZE]. Psalm 83:1-18
[SIZE=medium]‘The House of Esau, burnt up –[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]no survivors’[/SIZE]. Those attacking Israel will be totally wiped out. Zephaniah 3:8, Zephaniah 2:4-5
[SIZE=medium]‘those who lead My people’[/SIZE]. Another proof that this all happens before the Return of Jesus. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
 

Enquirer

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Hi there keras, the evidence is staring us right in the face, you cannot watch the news as a Christian and not see the growing evidence.
My understanding is that it is a lot sooner than we expect.
Why do I think so ?
Because Jesus himself said that we would be caught unawares ... now that's a scary thought ... unawares ?!
While we are all looking out for this sign or that event to take place next minute whamo He arrives.
Thank heavens He gave us indicators as you've mentioned above so that even if we are not 100% spot on as to the day we can at least
get our spiritual lives in order and be ready on a daily basis.
 
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Born_Again

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
The Day of the Lord is not at hand.
I stand nuetral here, for the sake of this discussion, but elaborate on your answer.....
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Born_Again said:
I stand nuetral here, for the sake of this discussion, but elaborate on your answer.....
The Day of the Lord is a specific and unique "Day" in prophecy.

It comes, as Jesus gives us the keystone passage with the Olivet Discourse, after three other, specific and unique events.
  1. The Abomination - this can be tied by Jesus's reference to Daniel to the midpoint abomination of the one 'seven.'
  2. The Great Tribulation - which Jesus also said was the worst time ever to be so that renders it as specific and unique.
  3. The preceding sign of the Day of the Lord given in Scripture - the sun/moon/star event.
For the midpoint abomination to be present, revealed in Revelation 13 as a talking image, the one 'seven' would have to have been started. There is no present agreement in Israel which gives the Sanhedrin (newly re-formed) the power over the Temple in which to present the (conquering) King of the North his prize image.

So at any point, we are at least three and a half years away from the Day of the Lord being upon us. That time is increased by the unknown duration of the Great Tribulation. Some will say that has been on--going... that twists what Jesus said. Past persecutions hardly hold a candle to the Holocaust, and still that was not ended by the arrival of the Day of the Lord. Likewise, criticism that "abominations" and anti-Christs have been on going as well also fall short of the talking image revealed by God the Father through Jesus to John in Revelation chapter 13.

So at any given time, we cannot expect the Day of the Lord with its attendant Rapture to be "at hand" as in "present."

However, as none of us knows what will happen in the next five minutes; it behooves us to act as if Jesus were coming at any time. Death can come unexpectedly, and if so, we would desire to be raised first from the Dead to be with Jesus when He comes on the clouds to gather some who will never experience death in their body.
 

keras

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Marcus, you confuse the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath; a terrible Day of worldwide devastation, with the Great Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev 16:14, which is the Return.
They are two separate Days, years apart. The many descriptions of The Day of wrath simply do not match with what we are told happen at the Return of Jesus in His glory. Zechariah 14:3-20, Matthew 24:30-31 and Rev. 19:11-21
The Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb is the Sixth Seal event, Rev 6:17, and it will commence the last days. Much must take place before Jesus Returns.
Do you see what I posted in the OP as happening at the Return?
Is it a 'strange and alien task' to Return to the earth?
Will He 'destroy the entire Holy Land' at His Return?

No, this terrible disaster will be the reason the survivors will establish a One World Govt, eventually to be ruled by a dictator. But the Lord's righteous people will go to live in a regenerated Holy Land. Great will be the Day!
 

Born_Again

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I look at it this way...... I honestly thing we can construe any world event as a "sign of the times". There has been fighting in the Holy Lany for centuries. In the early 60's we were just hours away from nuclear holocost... That would have destroyed everything on earth... Thank God for cooler heads prevailing... Scripture clearly states that we do not know the day or the hour of His return... I agree with marcus... If we live like Jesus would be here tomorrow then what do we have to be concerned aobut. As faithful, Christ fearing Christians, we should welcome this event because we get to go home!!!!
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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500 study guides, huh? Are there really? And how many are in print? And even more telling, has anyone read them? More importantly: where are they published that we may go read them and be illuminated with your wisdom? You presume much and confuse more; so don't think that another way is confused just because I don't confuse what you have confused.

The Day of the Lord has many opposing halves. It is a unique Day.
Like Rosh ha-Shannah, it can also be considered one long day and be two days in length and still be considered one day.

The Day of the Lord encompasses two more opposites: Rescue for the Church, and then Wrath for the world, starting with unbelieving, unrepentant Israel.

It is important not to confuse the two.

The Day of the Lord begins with an earthquake to shake things up.
REV 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake.
HAG 2:6 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: `In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land.

This applies to us in this way:
HEB 12:26a …now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." 27 The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken--that is, created things--so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
PS 125:1 Those who trust in the LORD are like Mount Zion, which cannot be shaken but endures forever.

At the brightest time of day, immediately preceding the Day of the Lord: it will go dark.
MT 24:29 `the sun will be darkened,
REV 6:12 The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair
AM 8:9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD,
"I will make the sun go down at noon
and darken the earth in broad daylight.


The moon shall not give its "light"
MT 24:29 and the moon will not give its light
REV 6:12 the whole moon turned blood red,
EZE 32:7 When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens
and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
and the moon will not give its light.


This is the "unknown day" - which itself is an idiom referring in the first century Judaism to Rosh ha-Shannah.
ZEC 14:6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD.
Mt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

As Joel writes and Jesus explains, these signs for the Day of the Lord precede it:
Joel 2:31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

So the Day of the Lord is a specific and unique Day and it culminates with another contrast: when it is dark, it will be light. This opposes the previous darkening at noon.
ZEC 14:7 When evening comes, there will be light.
Mt 24:29 the stars will fall from the sky,

This then, leads us to what I think is the sign of the Son of Man: the scrolling of the sky as a dimensional rift of Heaven into our world - Jesus' parousia!
Isaiah 34:4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
REV 6:14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

This then leads us to Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse:
Mt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
I suggest to you, dear reader, that the scrolling of the sky is the third celestial sign from God which identifies the Day of the Lord.

Following Jesus' parousia - He touches down on the earth - at the Mount of Olives splitting it in two and making the second earthquake of Revelation's sixth Seal.
AC 1:10 This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven... v.12 - the Mount of Olives,
ZEC 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
REV 6:14 ...and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Major earthquakes displace every geographic point around the world. They even can minutely speed up, or slow down the rotation of the earth.

It is from the newly formed Mount Zion that Jesus calls the 144,000. Revelation 14 is parallel to Revelation 6 here and refers back to Isaiah.
REV 6:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
REV 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
ISA 13:2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
shout to them;
beckon to them
to enter the gates of the nobles.

ISA 13:3 I have commanded my holy ones;
I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath--
those who rejoice in my triumph.

ISA 13:4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!
The LORD Almighty is mustering
an army for war.

ISA 13:5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens--
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath--
to destroy the whole country.

ISA 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty.


Meanwhile, before the Wrath of God falls, and as the Angels prepare the 144,000, Jesus goes into the realm of the dead - Paradise - and calls out all those who can hear. The Last Trumpet is also a feature of Rosh ha-Shannah. It is one of three Trumpets God blows; it is not the seventh Trumpet of His Wrath which is blown by an Angel.
1TH 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
1CO 15:51b “We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.”
MT 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

And then, Jesus takes this Great Multitude of believers, stolen from the clutches of the devil and his minions bossed by the anti-Christ, and delivers them to the very presence of God the Father: the third realm of Heaven.
REV 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, " Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

The sequence of events in the Bible for the Day of the Lord preceding His Wrath is this:
  • Earthquake to shake things up - begins Day of the Lord
  • Sun darkened at noon by a covering of clouds
  • The Moon appears reddened as the clouds dissipate
  • Scrolling of the sky - as Jesus comes opening up the sky at night
  • Mountain moving earthquake as Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives
  • 144,000 are mustered
  • Sign of Jesus in the sky, coming on the clouds around the Earth
  • Gathering/Redemption/Deliverance/Rapture
    Dead in Christ
  • Those who are alive and are left


Half an hour passes with the opening of the seventh Seal, and then the first Trumpet of God's Wrath comes - and it supplies the fire and blood which are two of the three elements present on the Day of the Lord's Wrath which comes first to Israel, and spreads to the entire world destroying a third of it with fire, smoke, and blood.

Rescue / Wrath - the lesson of Noah and Lot.

The Day of the Lord is not to be confused with Armageddon referenced in Rev 16:14. That happens only after the other seven Trumpets have sounded and the Bowl Judgments have been poured out.
 

keras

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Marcus, your unpleasant attitude counts against you. Anyone reading what you post will be affected by the way you make definitive statements and denigrate other peoples posts.

Here is another of my articles that help to explain Bible prophecy:
[SIZE=11pt]The Lord Comes to Reveal His Glory Among His Own[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 We hold you up as a good example of steadfast faith, because you have kept faithful despite difficulties and troubles. This will show the justice of God’s judgement, when you prove worthy to partake in the Kingdom, for which you are currently suffering. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] It is just that God should balance the account by sending affliction to those who afflict you and to give you relief when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire. Then, He will punish all those who refuse to acknowledge God or the Gospel of Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction cut off from any hope of salvation, when on that great Day, He comes to reveal His glory among His own and to all believers.[/SIZE] So, therefore to you, since you believe the testimony of the Gospel.
[SIZE=11pt]This passage describes the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a terrible fire judgement upon His enemies and how, at that time, He saves and delivers His people. He is not seen by all the world at this first event, only by believers in Him. Many other prophecies parallel this; Isaiah 10:17-22, Isaiah 29:19-21, Isaiah 30:26, Jeremiah 30:4-8, Ezekiel 34:12, Amos 9:8-12[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 Now, about the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, when He is to gather the elect to Himself, Matthew 24:31 do not be alarmed by anyone who says He is here already. [/SIZE]Let no one deceive you: that Day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form, the man doomed to destruction. He is the adversary who aspires to be worshipped in God’s place and he even enthrones himself in the temple, claiming to be God. Daniel 8:10
[SIZE=11pt] Already the secret forces of wickedness are at work, but the restraining power of the Holy Spirit will ensure that he will be revealed only at the appointed time. Then, the Lord Jesus will destroy him by His Spirit and His radiant power.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Now [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]- that is: some time after the previous events of judgement and deliverance, Jesus will Return, in glory, visible to all. He destroys the armies attacking Jerusalem and chains up Satan, then commences His Millennial reign. Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:1-6 At this time He gathers ‘[/SIZE]the elect’ to Himself, Matthew 24:31, they are the Gentiles who have kept pure and faithful to Him, during the Tribulation.

[SIZE=11pt]2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of this wicked person is the work of Satan, it will be accompanied by all the powerful signs and miracles that falsehood can devise and every sort of evil that deceives those who do not open their minds to the truth. They are doomed to perish, because they refuse to listen to the Gospel of the truth, so God has put them under a compelling delusion; which makes them believe what is false. So all will be judged and condemned who have rejected the truth, but have made sinfulness their choice. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Here, in Pauls letter to the Thessalonians, he prophesies about two separate appearances of Jesus. First, His coming in ‘blazing fire’, when He will reveal Himself only to His righteous people. He destroys the nations and entities who ‘conspire to attack Israel’[/SIZE], in fulfilment of Psalm 83 and many other prophecies. His people go to live in the Promised Land. Then, some time after that devastating and shocking event, the Anti Christ will come to power and ‘enthrone himself in the Temple’, this commences the Great Tribulation and 1260 days later, Jesus Returns to live once again on earth. logostelos.info
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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So you didn't read past the first two lines; it's not all about you Keras. I'm not the one who calls other Christians agents of Satan with false teachings about the Rapture.

The point is, for the part you didn't read - is that the Day of the Lord has several elements in it, and is preceded by the start of the one 'seven,' its midpoint abomination, and the Great Tribulation. It is NOT "at hand."

Likewise, you are also in error on the final battle; while on the Day of the Lord, there are two battles fought, one around Jerusalem and the other to the south; the final battle of Armageddon is in the hill country of Ephraim.

Still waiting for that website address where I can buy all those Bible Study Guides of yours...
 

keras

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
The point is, for the part you didn't read - is that the Day of the Lord has several elements in it, and is preceded by the start of the one 'seven,' its midpoint abomination, and the Great Tribulation. It is NOT "at hand."

Likewise, you are also in error on the final battle; while on the Day of the Lord, there are two battles fought, one around Jerusalem and the other to the south; the final battle of Armageddon is in the hill country of Ephraim.
I have posted the Bible truth, why should I respond to your opinions?
But for those who read this thread;
The Day of the Lord's wrath is a single, literal Day. Isaiah 9:4, Isa 10:17, Isa 29:6, Zech. 3:9
Har-mageddon is north of J,lem, a large flat valley inland from Haifa. I do not see two battles at the Return.

My books are free to download or read the articles at: www.logostelos.info
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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You didn't post "the" Bible truth! You posted what you thought about some verses.

You don't see two battles on the Day of the Lord?
1. Is around and in Jerusalem: Joel 2:1 at His Holy Mountain.
2. Is to the south in the valley of decision Joel 3:14.

Neither are in the hill country of Ephraim at the end of the one 'seven.' Yeah, you don't see it, but you say you have the truth.
 

keras

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You didn't post "the" Bible truth! You posted what you thought about some verses.

You don't see two battles on the Day of the Lord?
1. Is around and in Jerusalem: Joel 2:1 at His Holy Mountain.
2. Is to the south in the valley of decision Joel 3:14.

Neither are in the hill country of Ephraim at the end of the one 'seven.' Yeah, you don't see it, but you say you have the truth.
Quite right, Joel is talking about two, so called battles. But they do not happen at the same time or consecutively. Joel chapters 1 & 2 , are vivid descriptions of what will happen on the Lord's Day of wrath, not a battle as we know it, but a world wide devastation by fire from the sky. It is another of the 100 + prophesies of the Sixth Seal.

Many years later, Jesus will Return in glory, as described in Zech 14:3-11, Matthew 24:30, Rev. 19:11-21. The armies of the world are gathered at Armageddon for the battle on the great Day of the Sovereign Lord. Rev. 16:14 This Day is described very differently to the Day of wrath and this time Jesus in person delivers their fate 'by the sword of the Word'.



The Bible has the truth, we must read it very carefully, putting aside pre-conceived ideas and false teachings.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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John does not write that the battle of Armageddon happens on the Day of the Lord. The Greek is very specific.

The truth by Keras is made up in his own mind.
 

keras

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Marcus, please cease your rude and derogatory comments, it just makes you look ungracious.

I looked up Rev 16:14 & 16 in Interlinear Analyser, they confirm that Armageddon happens on the Great Day of the Sovereign Lord, The Return of Jesus.

The Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is imminent, that is why I posted the OP of this thread. Those who do not think this is part of God's plan, should post elsewhere.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Revelation 16:14 does not say "the Great Day of the Sovereign Lord," i.e., the Day of the Lord. You are not only mistaken, you are deluded. You look only so far as to get the answer you want and you think you have the truth. You then set out on the presumption that you have God's truth and attempt to destroy any who take issue with what you think. You might even call them, gasp!, "ungracious!"

Well the ungracious thing is setting yourself up as the arbitrator of truth and acting like you're the last word.

The Sixth Seal is not imminent, it comes only after the Great Tribulation,
- and that comes only after the midpoint abomination,
- and that comes only after the start of the one 'seven,'
- and that needs the final fourth beast to form,
- and the anti-Christ in a place of power in which to set the covenant into being.

Post elsewhere? Who are you to dictate to me? You can't even get the Greek right in Revelation 16:14.

Day of the Lord in the New Testament:

Acts 2:20 - hemera kyrios.
1Co 5:5 - hemera kyrios
1Th 5:2 - hemera kyrios
2Th 2:2 - hemera kyrios
2Pe 3:10 - hemera kyrios

Revelation 16:14 - which comes AFTER the Day of the Lord's gathering from the cloud pictured in Revelation 14:14-16...

megas hemera theos - John does not call it the Day of the Lord. It is the Great Day of God. Of course, any day with God is great; but in this one, He is, through the Commander of His Army (Jesus), victorious over eons of Kings who have ruled the earth wickedly, capping with the anti-Christ of the one 'seven.'
 

keras

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My point is that the rendering in Rev 16:14 is different that from other mentions of the Day of the Lord. That is because it is a separate event.

The Revelation Seals, trumpets and bowls is about the only true sequence of end time events in the Bible. It says; and then, after that and then I saw, etc.
But the most telling proof that it does prophesy a correct sequence is that uses a scroll, a rolled up document, that is sealed with seven seals. Surely no one need be told, you must remove the seals before the document can be unrolled and read.
It is, therefore, illogical and wrong to think the Sixth and Seventh Seals will be opened after the Trumpet and Bowl punishments.
[SIZE=medium]An Explanation of the Sixth Seal[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Revelation 6:12-17;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal[/SIZE], – At this moment a coronal mass ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19

[SIZE=medium]There was a violent earthquake[/SIZE] – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes. Haggai 2:6, Deut. 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalm 18:7

[SIZE=medium]The sun turned black as a funeral pall[/SIZE] – The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

[SIZE=medium]The moon became a red as blood[/SIZE] – The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermite reaction with the aluminium oxide moon dust. Joel 2:31

[SIZE=medium]The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs[/SIZE] – All our satellites crash to earth and its likely there will be a meteor shower. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

[SIZE=medium]The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up[/SIZE] – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this great pressure wave. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 51:6

[SIZE=medium]Every mountain and island moved from their place[/SIZE] – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13

[SIZE=medium]Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves[/SIZE] – people are terrified by what is coming and they scramble for cover. Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zeph. 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:26

[SIZE=medium]They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb[/SIZE] – People want to die rather than face this punishment. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

[SIZE=medium]For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand?[/SIZE] Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15. This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, trusting to Him for salvation; they will [SIZE=medium]‘ pass safely through all that is to come’ [/SIZE] Luke 21:36, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalm 68:1-3, Joel 3:16 and will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His righteous people.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Besides not comporting to the Bible, it's not even physically possible scientifically for your pet "theory" which you put forth as "truth" to even do anything close to what you put forth.

keras said:
My point is that the rendering in Rev 16:14 is different that from other mentions of the Day of the Lord. That is because it is a separate event.
Which before you tried to say was the Day of the Lord and was thus tied to specific Day of the Lord events mentioned in the Old Testament.

There are two battles fought on the Day of the Lord, Armageddon is not mentioned to be one of them. This does not preclude it from also being included; what precludes it is the timeline presented in the parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive).

Chapter 13 - first half up to the midpoint.
Chapter 14 - Day of the Lord with its Rescue/Wrath sequence.
Chapter 15 - The Bowl Judgments introduced (fulfillment of the third woe? Possibly!)
Chapter 16 - Desolation of the Bowls leading up to the end with the Great Earthquake.
In between chapter 14 and 15, there are the Trumpet Judgments and the first Woe takes five months alone to be accomplished. All told, there is probably the better part of three years between Rev 14:14-16 and the Great Earthquake which finishes the one 'seven.'
 

Enquirer

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Hi Marcus, what you say makes a great deal of sense from what I already understand concerning the end times ... I just have one
question.
You declare that Jesus will descend and call the saints out of paradise ... do you not believe that "to be absent from the body is to
be present with the Lord" ?
Because if that is the case then are you saying that believers are not with Christ ?
Remember the Scripture when Jesus rose from the dead and many rose with him found in Matt 27:52

The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

I believe that on that day He emptied Paradise and took ALL of the saints with him into heaven where God the Father is.

Jesus told the thief on the cross in Luke 24:43,

And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise".

So are you saying that Jesus left the thief in Paradise and then went to the Father in another place ?
Because that is where He is right now according to Stephen in Acts 7:55,

But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

So, are the saints with Christ or not (Scripture says we go to be with him) ?
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Enquirer said:
You declare that Jesus will descend and call the saints out of paradise ... do you not believe that "to be absent from the body is to
be present with the Lord" ?
Well, I do not declare it per se, but I have found it in the Bible. Jesus said in John 14:3 that He would come back to take the Disciples with Him to where He was going to go. Now since these men stand in stead for us, it is reasonable to extrapolate that to Christians, as the Apostles are the nexus of the Elect. Furthermore, in Paul's earliest letter that we have in the Bible, 1Th 4:16-17, he too says that Jesus is going to resurrect the Dead in Christ first before coming to get those who are still alive and remain (after the Great Tribulation).

As far as coming from Paradise, as you rightly say, that is where Jesus said they (with the thief on His Right) would be that day. Another instance where we get our only view of the immediate afterlife is in Luke 16. Here Jesus tells the story (not a parable) of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man. In this story, Jesus describes two realms for the dead. One is a place of comfort, or rest, and the other is hot and dry. Figuratively, the water the rich man desires Lazarus to pass him on the tip of his finger (a mere drop), indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit. Thus, this place of peace, Abraham's bosom, is also imbued with the presence of God in the form of the Spirit in my way of thinking.

Now as to the opposing situation, this summary conclusion comes from Paul's later letters. After being on fire eschatologically speaking at first, Paul's later letters hardly go into any real detail about the end-times. I think after his attempt to teach new believers about the end, and having them misconstrue it so (the whole point of 2Th 2:2), he feeds them on milk rather than meat (1Co 3:2), but even in that fourth letter of his, Paul still can't help himself and slips into teaching real meat about the resurrection of the Elect. However, he corrects himself yet again in his second letter (2Co 5:8) to them (his fifth chronologically - Zondervan NASB Study Bible) with the quote you cite.

So the dichotomy is entirely of Paul's making and seemingly contradicts Christ. Why, if we go to be with Him, does He have to come and get us?

The answer that can reconcile that dichotomy and answer your question is that Paul has simplified his message to the young in spirit believers. Rather than get into a complicated set of circumstances which are not yet, and are not easy to understand (witness all the differing opinions here!) - Paul gives the early Corinth Church a simple one-two message. Live in faith now: live eternally with Christ. That is the essential message of the Church.

Paul does not renounce his earlier teaching, he just omits it. And unlike our day, where we are ulta-technically correct, an omission of a fact is not a commission of an error in his day.

Enquirer said:
Remember the Scripture when Jesus rose from the dead and many rose with him found in Matt 27:52

The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

I believe that on that day He emptied Paradise and took ALL of the saints with him into heaven where God the Father is.
Well, that belief structure might work still - then the ones who die subsequently - in faith - will be taken up on the last day.

It is also a prophetic fact that many will rise in His "train." (Psalm 68:18)

And many did "wake up" when Jesus died on the cross, but they did not go to Heaven. Instead: "coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

But when Jesus died, He did not go to the Father. He did that after He "rose" on the third day. He tells that to Mary in the Garden in John 20:17.

When Jesus goes to the Father, He does take captives in His train. And I think that we can see those people in Zechariah chapter 3!

Here is a courtroom setting where our sin is removed from Jesus, Satan is rebuked - twice, and this is all witnessed by men wondered at!

I think these men who follow Jesus to Heaven become the 24 Elders.

Enquirer said:
So are you saying that Jesus left the thief in Paradise and then went to the Father in another place ?
Yes.

I count Paradise as the "first Heaven" eschatologically. This is the place where the dead "rest." (Calvin's argument that they do not sleep is valid in my opinion.)

I count the fifth Seal martyr's place with its glass ceiling as the "second Heaven."

I count being in the presence of God the Father, as Jesus is in Stephen's vision and as John is after being 'coming up' in Revelation 4:1 as the "third Heaven."
  1. On the Day of the Lord, Jesus will sound the Last Trumpet and the Dead in Christ (they will "hear") are resurrected out of Paradise.
  2. Then with that multitude of Saints (holy ones), Jesus comes with them (1Th 3:13) to gather up those who are still alive and remain (1Th 4:17).
  3. These are delivered to the "barn" of Heaven (from the wheat/tares parable of Mt 13) as the Great Multitude of Revelation 7:9-17.
  4. Later, when their number is complete with the addition of the Two Witnesses at the end of the one 'seven.' the martyrs are also "made alive" (even though previously been arrayed in white linen) and join the Great Multitude in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence.
Enquirer said:
So, are the saints with Christ or not (Scripture says we go to be with him) ?
We are not "in" Heaven until the sixth Seal is broken and the Day of the Lord commences. John reports on all he sees in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence in Revelation chapters 4 and 5 - and we're not 'in the picture' - yet.

We will be with Christ as per Paul's words, just not immediately.

Until the Day of the Lord, the Dead in Christ are comforted, and they "rest in peace." They will be awakened from their slumber (death) and resurrected.

Then Paul's words, which are a part of Scripture, will be realized in its fullness.