The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations

No, it's not the next prophesied event.

Nor will it clear the land by itself for the Sukkot in-gathering which happens after the one 'seven.'

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It's no sense talking logic to you Keras - you just declare whatever whim you think of as truth. So no amount Scripture I could bring to the table matters!

But for the one or two other readers of this terrible back-and-forth: the answer is in the Olivet Discourse.

Here is the Sequence of Events Jesus lays out in the Olivet Discourse.
(Parentheses represent where the verses can be found in Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21.)

• (v. --/--/20) Armies surround Jerusalem
• (v. 15/14/--) Midpoint Abomination(s)
• (v. 21/19/23) Great Tribulation
• (v. 29/24-25/25) Sun/moon/star event
• (v. 30/26/27) Sign of Jesus in the sky
• (v. 31/27/28) Gathering the Elect from all over the Earth (the Rapture)
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Now the Day of the Lord is preceded by the sun/moon/star event - as per Joel 2:31

The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

What follows that fourth bullet point in the Olivet Discourse is the Day of the Lord - when Jesus comes again.
The Great Multitude show up in Heaven after the same sun/moon/star event described in the Olivet Discourse.
They are the end result of that Gathering Rapture - and no less an authority than an Elder proclaims them to have come out of the Great Tribulation - which is the third bullet point.

Half an hour of silence in Heaven and on Earth passes with the opening of the seventh Seal - followed by the first Trumpet of God's Wrath supplying two of the three elements of the Day of the Lord's Wrath - fire and blood.

This all happens on the Day of the Lord; a single long day.

This then marries what Jesus said about Noah and Lot - Rescue and then Wrath.

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So the Day of the Lord's Wrath is NOT the next prophesied event. Once more you are in error Keras.

First the one 'seven' must begin. That's not even in the cards right now... and even then it's more than three and a half years away - and - there are other prophesied events between now and then!

There are other very important prophesied events which happen before the first Trumpet sounds. They are:

• The formation of the fourth Terrible beast.
• The start of the one 'seven,'
• The oppression and war the anti-Christ wages on us.
• The nuclear bombing (fire from the sky) that the false prophet brings to disturb the "peace."
• The Gog/Magog war which brings the King of the North to surround Jerusalem.
• The midpoint abomination.
• The Great Tribulation.
• The sun/moon/star event.
• Jesus' parousia with all its attendant details (splitting the Mount of Olives, mustering the 144,000, resurrecting the Dead in Christ, coming with them on the clouds)
• The Rapture.
• The breaking of the seventh Seal - THEN God's Wrath comes.

I am going to add as a way of emphasis and conclusion that all three Synoptic versions are in agreement on the basic, linear, sequence of events. From what I have presented, we can blend the three with Luke being a little different in that the conquering King of the North must first come to Jerusalem before being in the Temple.

So the order is inviolate and is backed up by Revelation chapter 13 where the talking image is immediately followed by two laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect that their survival would be in question is God does not intervene when the number or martyrs has been satisfied during that time period.

It is important to note that the fifth Seal number is not fulfilled with the Great Tribulation. That number will increase after the Day of the Lord Rapture by at least two - the Two Witnesses who live on during the second half of the one 'seven' calling down God's Wrath and otherwise perplexing the wicked until they are killed at the end of the one 'seven.'

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Keras you don't know squat about if and when the fifth Seal has or has not been broken. There is NO indication this is well before the Great Tribulation, just before the Great Tribulation, during the Great Tribulation, or right before the Great Tribulation is about to be abruptly and suddenly interrupted by the sun/moon/star event which is going to shake up the world.

YOU HAVE NO PROOF.

And I did not call it an "inviolate" order - but it DOES comport with the Bible! It does NOT violate a linear, sequential view that the Seals precede the Trumpets, and the Bowl Judgments come last. If you think that, then it's just YOUR erroneous thinking - which I question deeply!

The Day of the Lord is NOT "at hand." There are other prophesied events which must precede it.

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Hey Keras, you're confused? Not surprising.

The formation of the fourth terrible beast of Daniel 7 is revealed in Revelation 13. It happens before the Man of Perdition rises within it to become head. It is he who forces through by his military strength, the one 'seven.' He is also in charge for that first half again as revealed in Revelation 13. The first three bullet points come from that chapter and the book of Daniel as a matter of course.

In the chapter again, in introducing the false prophet, we are told he has made fire rain down from the sky. This aptly describes a nuclear attack. I have news articles from Israel that describe how the Sanhedrin, re-formed just a few years ago, are consulted in military matters for Israel. The false prophet, from the land, also controls the Temple, which will be rebuilt. Ergo: He is Jewish. We know Israel has nukes, which I have been trained to drop from fighter aircraft, and we know Israel faces a nuclear opponent in Iran. Bullet point #4.

I propose, logically from Scripture, that the false prophet initiates a defensive first strike which, in turn, predicates the invasion of the North in retaliation. On the Day of the Lord, He will remove the Northern Army as per Joel 2:20. In both Daniel 11:45 and Luke 21:20, we know that the anti-Christ will surround Jerusalem, where the "Holy Mountain" is. We can surmise that they got there by the Gog/Magog invasion of a "peaceful" nation with its whitewashed walls. Bullet point #5 which goes right back to the Olivet Discourse.

The rest of the bullet points are right out of the Olivet Discourse. Try and refute them; their sequence is plain to see three times over and doesn't take too much logical thinking to integrate.

I don't mention the fifth Seal in this particular list because I can't peg the timing. In my holistic assembly of linear narratives into one sequence of events, I put it before the Great Tribulation's end because it comes before the Day of the Lord - but that is all. Unlike you, I don't make up stuff or dismiss Biblical facts.

Shalom, gentlemen.

You BOTH are arguing about matters that neither of you understand.

First of all, you BOTH misconstrue the meaning of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Quit taking the word of whoever you read or to whom you listen and READ IT IN THE GREEK! Combine them FIRST in the Greek and THEN look at the composite of the three! One will find that neither scenario that you two present is correct!

Second, you consequently have no idea about what and when and how long the “Great Tribulation” will be! With errors in your beginning points, any subsequent conclusions based on those beginning points will likewise be in error. For instance, it is a COMMON ERROR to equate the “Great Tribulation” with the last half of Daniel 9’s “seventieth Seven.” There is absolutely NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for that assumption! That is PURELY BASED on a theological, eschatological viewpoint! To the contrary, there IS Scriptural basis for understanding a much earlier partial fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse and the separation of the “Tribulation,” especially the “Great Tribulation” (which should NOT be rendered as a title or a label), from the “70th Seven!"

Third, there are MULTIPLE occurrences of the “Day of the LORD” in the Scriptures - days when YHWH has had enough! Not every prophetic passage is about the LAST “Day of the LORD!” One absolutely MUST find incontrovertible evidence in the context of that prophetic passage that it is indeed about the LAST “Day of the LORD” before one adds it to his/her construct model and begins to build conclusions upon that passage!

Interestingly, Marcus, if you include Daniel 11:45 in your assumptions about the future “Antichrist,” then you DO “make up stuff and ignore ... facts,” even if those facts aren’t necessarily biblical but are historical.

And you, keras, have made a glaring error in thinking that “the LORD coming in fire, bringing retribution in anger” (Isaiah 66:15) is not mentioned in Revelation 19!

Revelation 19:11-19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood (that’s not His own blood!): and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations (you don’t think there’s ‘anger’ in that?!): and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
KJV

You BOTH need to take a closer look at your own positions and BE SURE - DOUBLY SURE - that you know what you’re talking about!

Hi Keras, I'll be writing more on this soon, but your statement: "That the Great Tribulation is the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments is clear from how the Sixth Bowl prepares the way for the gathering of those armies for their destruction at Armageddon."

is in my opinion, not correct. The great trib has zero to do with the world and everything to do with the church. The great trib is separate from God's wrath. In fact it is satan's wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17. The great trib is not 1260 days in length, it is of short term duration within the context of the 70th week and will be over before the wrath begins.

keras said:

Typically Marcus mis-reads what I say. I pointed out YOUR confusion and contradictions!
Attempting to push all of God's wrath into the time of the Return, leads to error and utter disorder of scripture.

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It is pathetic to try to respond to a non-response. Going from your infantile insults where you want to reverse blame your post belies your utter inability to comprehend any other idea than your own. Confusion?

Taking Millennial passages for the natural nation of Israel out of context and making non sequitur conclusions has you building an entire fantasy out of nothing whereby you ignore plain, linear passages like the Olivet Discourse which does sequence the Day of The Lord. The Day of The Lord is not found in Isaiah 66:19 as you conclude out of thin air are the 144,000 from Revelation. There is no connecting event or thing which allows you to do as you have concluded; it is totally without substance - the very definition of delusion.

You cannot refute any specific instance I provide, but instead you make a blanket statement of error which ironically is in error itself! Your confusion manifests itself when you erroneously label my Pre-Wrath eschatology as having God's Wrath occur AT His Return. No matter how many times I type 'Rescue then Wrath,' you can't get it. The inability to extend your thinking to understand anything other than your own delusion means you are not capable of having an intelligent, impassioned discourse.

To say I did not provide the proof directly from the quoted Oliver Discourse is at best disingenuous, but taking in account your style it is more aptly characterizes as a flat out delusional.

Likewise you are not the arbiter of truth, nor have you proven your point Keras. You are merely proclaiming this means that and that means this which is lowest level of exegesis.

To explain it to you again, although I now think you lack the ability to understand; the Olivet Discourse's importance is that it sets the Day of The Lord in sequence with four other specific and unique events which determines it does not happen at the end of the one 'seven' nor before the one 'seven' even commences.

Furthermore, the Olivet Discourse stands first in importance because when Jesus cites the order of five specific and unique events, He allows us to tie the sixth Seal of Revelation to the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27.

Furthermore still, we can then, logically (which escapes your limited ability to think outside the box you make for yourself) know that by equating the sun/moon/star event of Mt 24:29 to Rev 6:12-13 - the Rapture of Mt 24:31 happens before the Wrath of God when the Scroll is finally unsealed after the Great Multitude of believers in Christ are safely in the barn of Heaven in Rev 7:9-17 before the first Trumpet sounds after the seventh Seal is broken in Revelation chapter 8.

And your "years later" timeline is wrong.

keras said:

Tell you what: Lets leave this until the 18th December, if nothing happens then, I will be more amenable to considering your views.

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I don't think that one guy on this thread knows what they are talking about but it's kind of funny watching you guys yell at one another with your sunglasses on.

I wonder what you're talking about with the 18th of December, do you mean December 2018? When I mentioned the vernal equinox you claimed "much has to take place" before anything can happen. I don't think so. I think that the other "angel ascending from the east" is about to finish his work and it will be completed soon after the first day of spring.
Then we will see firsthand what will be the chronology during The Appointed Time of The End.