The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations

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Eric E Stahl

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Zephaniah said the day of the Lord will be very, very near after Israel the nation not desired is gathered.


[SIZE=14pt]Zephaniah 1:14-2:3[/SIZE]
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the

LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, keras.

keras said:
Retro, your refutations are just about as unpleasant as other posters. I would expect a higher tone from you.
'Glaring error' indeed. That the Return does mention fire, in His eyes and in a lake, does not detract from the fact the armies of the Anti-Christ are destroyed by the 'sword of His Word'.
The Return is not and cannot be the 'terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath' as described in Isaiah 66:15-16 and many other vivid prophesies. The three descriptions of the Return, Rev 19:11-21, Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3-2 simply do not relate to ones like Amos 5:18-20, 2 Peter 3:7

That the Great Tribulation is the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments is clear from how the Sixth Bowl prepares the way for the gathering of those armies for their destruction at Armageddon. Rev. 16:12-14 The Anti-Christ will be given power to defeat God's people during those last 42 months before the Return. Rev 13:5-7, Daniel 9:27 This is a widely held belief and rightly so, because the fact that the GT does occur in the last half of Daniels 70th 'week', is Biblical truth. 2 Thess 2:1-4

Retro, your partial preterist beliefs will not help you when the real Day of the Lord comes, suddenly and unexpectedly. Haggai 2:21-22
I’m sorry that you took my statement personally. That was NOT my intent. I hold you as my brother and love you in the Lord, and I discuss these things for your well-being, Marcus’ well-being, and for the well-being of others who might read them. However, when I hear errors that stand out to me, I call ‘em as I see ‘em. I attack the problem, not the person. I would recommend that you seriously consider the REASON for the Return of the Messiah! WHY does He return? WHY does it say over and over again that He comes back SWIFTLY?! Why did He say,
Isaiah 9:1-7
1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.
5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV
?

First, let’s kick out a few of the passages that you cite above: Amos and Hagai are NOT talking about our future! They were talking about THEIR future - future that THEY would soon see fulfilled!

Amos 5:18-27
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.
KJV


Hagai 1:1-2:23
1:1 In the second year of Daryavesh the king, on the first day of the sixth month, the following word of ADONAI came through Hagai the prophet to Z’rubavel the son of Sh’alti’el, governor of Y’hudah, and to Y’hoshua the son of Y’hotzadak, the cohen hagadol: 2 “Here is what ADONAI-Tzva’ot says: ‘This people is saying that now isn’t the time — the time hasn’t yet arrived for ADONAI’S house to be rebuilt.’”
3 Then this word of ADONAI came through Hagai the prophet: 4 “So is now the time for you to be living in your own paneled houses, while this house lies in ruins? 5 Therefore here is what ADONAI-Tzva’ot says:

‘Think about your life!
6 You sow much but bring in little;
you eat but aren’t satisfied;
you drink but never have enough;
you clothe yourselves, but no one is warm;
and he who works for a living earns wages
that are put in a bag full of holes.’”

7 “Here is what ADONAI-Tzva’ot says: ‘Think about your life! 8 Go up into the hills, get wood, and rebuild the house. I will be pleased with that, and then I will be glorified,’ says ADONAI. 9 ‘You looked for much, but it came to little; and when you brought it home, I blew it away. Why?’ asks ADONAI-Tzva’ot. ‘Because my house lies in ruins, while every one of you runs to take care of his own house. 10 This is why the sky above you has withheld the dew, so that there is none, and the land withholds its yield. 11 In fact, I called for a drought on the land and on the hills, on the grain, the wine and the olive oil, on what the ground brings up, on men, animals and on all that hands produce.’”
12 Then Z’rubavel the son of Sh’alti’el and Y’hoshua the son of Y’hotzadak, the cohen hagadol, with all the rest of the people, paid attention to what ADONAI their God had said and to the words of Hagai the prophet; since ADONAI their God had sent him; and the people were filled with fear in the presence of ADONAI. 13 Hagai the messenger of Adonai conveyed this message of ADONAI to the people: “‘I am with you,’ says ADONAI.”

14 ADONAI roused the spirit of Z’rubavel the son of Sh’alti’el, governor of Y’hudah, and the spirit of Y’hoshua the son of Y’hotzadak, the cohen hagadol, and the spirits of all the rest of the people; so that they came and began to work on the house of ADONAI-Tzva’ot their God. 15 This was on the twenty-fourth day of the sixth month of the second year of Daryavesh the king.
2:1 On the twenty-first day of the seventh month, this word of ADONAI came through Hagai the prophet: 2 “Speak now to Z’rubavel the son of Sh’alti’el, governor of Y’hudah, and to Y’hoshua the son of Y’hotzadak, the cohen hagadol, and to the rest of the people; say this to them: 3 ‘“Who among you is left that saw this house in its former glory? And how does it look to you now? It seems like nothing to you, doesn’t it? 4 Nevertheless, Z’rubavel, take courage now,” says ADONAI; “and take courage, Y’hoshua the son of Y’hotzadak, the cohen hagadol; and take courage, all you people of the land,” says ADONAI; “and get to work! For I am with you,” says ADONAI-Tzva’ot. 5 “This is in keeping with the word that I promised in a covenant with you when you came out of Egypt, and my Spirit remains with you, so don’t be afraid!” 6 For this is what ADONAI-Tzva’ot says: “It won’t be long before one more time I will shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land; 7 and I will shake all the nations, so that the treasures of all the nations will flow in; and I will fill this house with glory,” says ADONAI-Tzva’ot. 8 “The silver is mine, and the gold is mine,” says ADONAI-Tzva’ot. 9 “The glory of this new house will surpass that of the old,” says ADONAI-Tzva’ot, “and in this place I will grant shalom,” says ADONAI-Tzva’ot.’”
10 On the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month in the second year of Daryavesh, this word of ADONAI came through Hagai the prophet: 11 “Here is what ADONAI-Tzva’ot says: ‘Ask the cohanim what the Torah says about this: 12 if someone carries meat that has been set aside as holy in a fold of his cloak; and then he lets his cloak touch bread, stew, wine, olive oil or any other food; does that food become holy too?’” The cohanim answered, “No.” 13 Then Hagai asked, “If someone who is unclean from having had contact with a corpse touches any of these [food items], will they become unclean?” The cohanim answered, “They become unclean.” 14 Hagai then said, “‘That is the condition of this people, that is the condition of this nation before me,’ says ADONAI, ‘and that is the condition of everything their hands produce; so that anything they offer there is unclean. 15 Now, please, from this day on, keep this in mind: before you began laying stones on each other to rebuild the temple of ADONAI, 16 throughout that whole time, when someone approached a twenty-measure pile [of grain], he found only ten; and when he came to the winepress to draw out fifty measures, there were only twenty. 17 I struck you with blasting winds, mildew and hail on everything your hands produced; but you still wouldn’t return to me,’ says ADONAI. 18 ‘So please keep this in mind, from this day on, from the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, from the day the foundation of ADONAI’S temple was laid, consider this: 19 there’s no longer any seed in the barn, is there? and the vine, fig tree, pomegranate tree and olive tree have produced nothing yet, right? However, from this day on, I will bless you.’”
20 The word of ADONAI came a second time to Hagai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, as follows: 21 “Tell Z’rubavel, governor of Y’hudah, ‘I will shake the heavens and the earth, 22 I will overturn the thrones of kingdoms, I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations, and I will overturn the chariots and the people riding in them; the horses and their riders will fall, each by the sword of his brother. 23 When that day comes,’ says ADONAI-Tzva’ot, ‘I will take you, Z’rubavel, my servant, the son of Sh’alti’el,’ says ADONAI, ‘and wear you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you,’ says ADONAI-Tzva’ot.”
CJB


These two passages were fulfilled in the PAST, Aamowc (Amos, spelled alef-qamets-mem-cholem/vav-samech, pronounced “Aw-MOCE") before the Captivity and Chagay (spelled cheit-patach-gimmel-patach-yod, pronounced “Hag-GUY,” since the cheit is pronounced like the “ch” in the Scottish word “loch") shortly after the Captivity. Thus, these two passages are NOT to be taken as prophecies for OUR future! These are examples enough to justify saying that there have been more than one “Day of the LORD!” Therefore, one must be careful in one’s consideration of those prophecies already fulfilled and remove them from our list of prophecies unfulfilled that shall be fulfilled in the future, particularly when the Lord Yeshua` returns.

The SAME considerations must be taken for the Olivet Discourse, by the way, and one will find with sufficient investigation that much of the Olivet Discourse has already been fulfilled, particularly from 66 to 70 A.D. Here’s a portion of the overlap between Matthew, Mark, and Luke:

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Kata Maththaion 24:1 Kai exelthoon ho Ieesous apo tou hierou eporeueto, kai proseelthon hoi matheetai autou epideixai autoo tas oikodomas tou hierou; 2 ho de apokritheis eipen autois, “Ou blepete tauta panta? ameen legoo humin, ou mee afethee hoode lithos epi lithon hos ou katalutheesetai."

3 Katheemenou de autou epi tou Orous toon Elaioon proseelthon autoo hoi matheetai kat’ idian legontes, “Eipe heemin pote tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion tees sees parousias kai sunteleias tou aioonos."
4 Kai apokritheis ho Ieesous eipen autois, “Blepete mee tis humas planeesee; 5 Polloi gar eleusontai epi too onomati mou legontes, ‘Egoo eimi ho Christos,’ kai pollous planeesousin. 6 Melleesete de akouein polemous kai akoas polemoon; horate, mee throeisthe; dei gar genesthai, all’ oupoo estin to telos. 7 Egertheesetai gar ethnos epi ethnos kai basileia epi basileian, kai esontai limoi kai seismoi kata topous; 8 panta de tauta archee oodinoon. 9 Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin kai apoktenousin humas, kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou. 10 Kai tote skandalistheesontai polloi kai alleelous paradoosousin kai miseesousin alleelous; 11 kai polloi pseudoprofeetai egertheesontai kai planeesousin pollous; 12 kai dia to pleethuntheenai teen anomian psugeesetai hee agapee toon polloon. 13 Ho de hupomeinas eis telos outos sootheesetai. 14 Kai keeruchtheesetai touto to euaggelion tees basileias en holee tee oikoumenee eis marturion pasin tois ethnesin, kai tote heexei to telos.

15 Hotan oun ideete to bldelugma tees ereemooseoos to hreethen dia Danieel tou profeetou estos en topoo hagioo, ho anaginooskoon noeitoo, 16 tote hoi en tee Ioudaia feugetoosan eis ta oree, 17 ho epi tou doomatos mee katabatoo arai ta ek tees oikias autou, 18 kai ho en too agroo mee epistrepsatoo opisoo arai to himation autou. 19 ouai de tais en gastri echousais kai tais theelazousais en ekeinais tais heemerais. 20 proseuchesthe de hina mee geneetai hee fugee humoon cheimoonos meede sabbatoo; 21 estai gar tote thlipsis megalee hoia ou gegonen ap’ archees kosmou heoos tou nun oud’ ou mee geneetai. 22 kai ei mee ekolobootheesan hai heemerai ekeinai, ouk an esoothee pasa sarx; dia de tous eklektous kolobootheesontai hai heemerai ekeinai. 23 tote ean tis humin eipee, Idou hoode ho Christos, hee, Hoode, mee pisteuseete; 24 egertheesontai gar pseudochristoi kai pseudoprofeetai, kai doosousin seemeia megala kai terata hooste planeesai, ei dunaton, kai tous eklektous; 25 idou proeireeka humin. 26 Ean oun eipoosin humin, Idou en tee ereemoo estin, mee exeltheete; Idou en tois tameiois, mee pisteuseete; 27 hoosper gar hee astrapee exerchetai apo anatoloon kai fainetai heoos dusmoon, houtoos estai hee parousia tou huiou tou anthroopou. 28 Hopou ean hee to ptooma, ekei sunachtheesontai hoi aetoi.

29 Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin toon hemelen ekeinoon,
ho heelios skotistheesetai,
kai hee seleenee ou doosei to feggos autees,
kai hoi asteres pesountai apo tou ouranou,
kai hai dunameis toon ouranoon saleutheesontai.

30 Kai tote faneesetai to seemeion tou Huiou tou Anthroopou en ouranoo, kai tote kopsontai pasai hai fulai tees gees kai opsontai ton Huion tou Anthroopou erchomenon epi toon nefeloon tou ouranou meta dunameoos kai doxees pollees; 31 kai apostelei tous aggelous autou meta salpiggos megalees, kai episunaxousin tous eklektous autou ek toon tessaroon anemoon ap’ akroon ouranoon heoos [toon] akroon autoon.
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Kata Markon 13:1 Kai ekporeuomenou autou ek tou hierou legei autoo eis toon matheetoonautou, Didaskale, ide potapoi lithoi kai potapai oikodomai. 2 kai ho Ieesous eipen autoo, “Blepeis tautas tas megalas oikodomas; ou mee afethee hoode lithos epi lithon hos ou mee kataluthee.

3 Kai katheemenou autou eis to Oros toon Elaioon katenanti tou hierou epeeroota auton kat’ idian Petros kai Iakoobos kai Iooannees kai Andreas, 4 Eipon heemin pote tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta sunteleisthai panta. 5 Ho de Ieesous eerxato legein autois, Blepete mee tis humas planeesee; 6 polloi eleusontai epi too onomati mou legontes hoti, “Egoo eimi,” kai pollous planeesousin. 7 Hotan de akouseete polemous kai akoas polemoon, mee throeisthe; dei genesthai, all’ oupoo to telos. 8 Egertheesetai gar ethos ep’ ethos kai basileia epi basileian, esontai seismoi kata topous, esontai limoi; archee oodinoon tauta. 9 Blepete de humeis heautous; paradoosousin humas eis sunedria kai eis sunagoogas dareesesthe kai epi heegemonoon kai basileoon statheesesthe heneken emou eis marturion autois. 10 Kai eis panta ta ethnee prooton dei keeruchtheenai to euaggelion. 11 Kai hotan agoosin humas paradidontes, mee promerimnate ti laleeseete, all’ ho ean dothee humin en ekeinee tee hoora touto laleite, ou gar este humeis hoi lalountes alla to pneuma to hagion. 12 Kai paradoosei adelfos adelfon eis thanaton kai pateer teknon, kai epanasteesontai tekna epi goneis kai thanatoosousin autous; 13 kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon dia to onoma mou. Ho de hupomeinas eis telos houtos sootheesetai.

14 Hotan de ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos esteekota hopou ou dei, ho anaginooskoon noeitoo, tote hoi en tee Ioudaia feugetoosan eis ta oree, 15 ho [de] epi tou doomatos mee katabatoo meede eiselthatoo arai ti ek tees oikias autou, 16 kai ho eis ton agron mee epistrepsatoo eis ta opisoo arai to himation autou. 17 Ouai de tais en gastri echousais kai tais theelazousais en ekeinais tais heemerais. 18 Proseuchesthe de hina mee geneetai cheimoonos; 19 esontai gar hai heemerai ekeinai thlipsis hoia ou gegonen toiautee ap’ archees ktiseoos heen ektisen ho Theos heoos tou nun kai ou mee geneetai. 20 Kai ei mee ekoloboosen Kurios tas heemeras, ouk an esoothee pasa sarx. Alla dia tous eklektous hous exelexato ekoloboosen tas heemeras. 21 Kai tote ean tis humin eipee, “Ide hoode ho Christos,” “Ide ekei,” mee pisteuete; 22 egertheesontai gar pseudochristoi kai pseudoprofeetai kai doosousin seemeia kai terata pros to apoplanan, ei dunaton, tous eklektous. 23 Humeis de blepete; proeireeka humin panta.

24 Alla en ekeinais tais heresia meta teen thlipsin ekeineen
ho heelios skotistheesetai,
kai hee seleenee ou doosei to feggos autees,
25 kai hoi asteres esontai ek tou ouranou piptontes,
kai hai dunameis hai en tois ouranois saleutheesontai.
26 Kai tote opsontai ton Huion tou Anthroopou erchomenon en nefelais meta dunameoos pollees kai doxees. 27 Kai tote [autou] ek toon tessaroon anemoon ap’ akrou gees heoos akrou ouranou.
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Kata Loukan 21:5 Kai tinoon legontoon peri tou hierou, hoti lithois kalois kai anatheemasin kekosmeetai, eipen, 6 “Tauta ha theooreite, eleusontai heemerai en ais ouk afetheesetai lithos epi lithoo hos ou katalutheesetai."

7 Epeerooteesan de auton legontes, “Didaskale, pote sun tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta ginesthai?” 8 Ho de eipen, “Blepete mee planeetheete; polloi gar eleusontai epi too anomati mou legontes, ‘Egoo eimi,' kai, 'Ho kairos eeggiken;' mee poreutheete hpisoo autoon. 9 Hotan de akouseete polemous kai akatastasias, mee ptoeetheete; dei gar tauta genesthai prooton, all’ ouk eutheoos to telos. 10 Tote elegen autois, Egertheesetai ethnos ep’ thnos kai basileia epi basilian, 11 seismoi te megaloi kai kata topous limoi kai loimoi esontai, fobeetra te kai ap’ ouranou seemeia megala estai. 12 Pro de toutoon pantoon epibalousin ef’ humas tas cheiras autoon kai diooxousin, paradidontes eis tas sunagoogas kai fulakas, apagomenous epi basileis kai heegemonas eneken tou onomatos mou; 13 apobeesetai humin eis marturion. 14 Thete oun en tais kardiais humoon mee promeletan apologeetheenai, 15 egoo gar doosoo humin stoma kai sofian hee ou duneesontai antisteenai hee anteipein apantes hoi antikeimenoi humin. 16 Paradotheesesthe de kai hupo goneoon kai adelfoon kai suggenoon kai filoon, kai thanatoosousin ex humoon, 17 kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon dia to onoma mou. 18 Kai thrix e tees kefalees humoon ou mee apoleetai. 19 En tee hupomonee humoon kteesasthe tas psuchas humoon.

20 Hotan de ideete kukloumeneen hupo stratopedoon Ierousaleem, tote gnoote hoti eeggiken hee ereemoosis autees. 21 Tote hoi en tee Ioudaia feugetoosan eis ta oree, kai hoi en mesoo autees ekchooreitoosan, kai hoi en tais choorais mee eiserchesthoosan eis auteen, 22 hoti heemerai ekdikeeseoos autai eisin tou pleestheenai panta ta gegrammena. 23 Ouai tais en gastri echousais kai tais theelazousais en ekeinais tais heemerais; estai gar anagkee megalee epi tees gees kai orgee too laoo toutoo, 24 kai pesountai machairees kai aichmalootistheesontai eis ta ethnee panta, kai Ierousaleem estai patoumenee hupo thenoon, achri ou pleeroothoosin kaipoi ethnoon.

25 Kai esontai seemeia en heelioo kai seleenee kai astrois, kai epi tees gees sunochee ethnoon en aporia eechous thalassees kai salou, 26 apopsuchontoon anthroopoon apo fobou kai prodokias toon eperchomenoon tee oikoumenee, hai gar dunameis toon ouranoon saleutheesontai. 27 Kai tote opsontai ton Huion tou Anthroopou erchomenon en nefelee meta dunameoos kai doxees pollees. 28 Archomenoon de toutoon ginesthai anakupsate kai eparate tas kefalas humoon, dioti eggitzei hee apolutroosis humoon.
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One doesn’t have to know Greek to investigate these highlighted portions to see that, with occasional minor grammatical alterations, they are the same in all three Gospels. By the way, don’t let anyone tell you that Luke’s Gospel portion was said in the Temple and the other two were said on the Mount of Olives (Oroos toon Elaioon). It’s clear from all of the similarities that these were said AT THE SAME TIME! Thus, Luke simply neglected to mention that the conversation was taken to the mountain between verses 6 and 7. Thus, from simply looking at the text, verse 15 of Matthew 24 and 14a of Mark 13 fit with verse 20 of Luke 21.

This was ALREADY FULFILLED in the first century around 66 A.D. (BEFORE 70 A.D., the actual time of the destruction of the Temple!) Therefore, it is an ERROR to suggest that these verses, Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14a, are fulfilled sometime in OUR future!
 

keras

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Grand effort. Retro! But I won't thank you, for you are promoting the false theory of preterism.
Because most of the OT prophesies can be paralleled with the NT ones, esp Revelation, then they apply to our time, as well as maybe a partial fulfilment in ancient times.
According to your beliefs, what do we expect in our future? Isn't it obvious that there will be dramatic things to happen before Jesus Returns?
With Matthew 24:15, the 'Abomination of Desolation' of which Daniel spoke... was NOT fulfilled by Titus in 70 CE.
Daniel 11:31...he will abolish the regular offering and set up the AoD.... Titus never set up a image to anyone.
2 Thess 2:1-4 Do not be deceived Jesus will not Return until the Anti-Christ is revealed...he will enthrone himself in God's Temple, claiming to be God. Well, Jesus hasn't Returned as yet, we await the advent of the Anti-Christ.
Revelation 13:15...the image of the beast was made able to breath and speak, all who did not worship the image were killed. Even if you think John wrote Revelation before 70 CE, which I do not - John wrote it circa 95 CE, in no way did this happen as described.

So despite your lengthy dissertation, nothing you say proves your preterist view. Denial of what must happen, will be of no help to you and all who fail to discern the Prophetic Word.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, keras.

keras said:
Grand effort. Retro! But I won't thank you, for you are promoting the false theory of preterism.
Because most of the OT prophesies can be paralleled with the NT ones, esp Revelation, then they apply to our time, as well as maybe a partial fulfilment in ancient times.
According to your beliefs, what do we expect in our future? Isn't it obvious that there will be dramatic things to happen before Jesus Returns?
With Matthew 24:15, the 'Abomination of Desolation' of which Daniel spoke... was NOT fulfilled by Titus in 70 CE.
Daniel 11:31...he will abolish the regular offering and set up the AoD.... Titus never set up a image to anyone.
2 Thess 2:1-4 Do not be deceived Jesus will not Return until the Anti-Christ is revealed...he will enthrone himself in God's Temple, claiming to be God. Well, Jesus hasn't Returned as yet, we await the advent of the Anti-Christ.
Revelation 13:15...the image of the beast was made able to breath and speak, all who did not worship the image were killed. Even if you think John wrote Revelation before 70 CE, which I do not - John wrote it circa 95 CE, in no way did this happen as described.

So despite your lengthy dissertation, nothing you say proves your preterist view. Denial of what must happen, will be of no help to you and all who fail to discern the Prophetic Word.
So that’s it? You simply relegate all the work to a LABEL, “preterism," and dismiss it?! It is SO FRUSTRATING to deal with ignorance!

First, I am NOT “promoting the false theory of preterism!” Wow! Talk about short-sighted!! Technically, it is called “PARTIAL preterism” at worst, and I believe it should really be understood to be “PARTIAL FUTURISM!” If you would just look at the text in all three Gospels that I took the time to TYPE IN BY HAND, btw, you will notice the pronouns “humeis,” “humoon,” “humin,” and “humas,” which are all second-person, plural pronouns, translated as “ye” or “you” or “your” or “yours" in the KJV (as opposed to the “thou,” “thee,” “thy,” and “thine” second-person SINGULAR English words). Also, verbs ending in “-te,” are verbs that have second-person, plural subjects!

When you see these Greek words, Yeshua` was talking DIRECTLY to the disciples IN HIS PRESENCE THAT DAY, not to some future generation! When Yeshua` projected His thoughts into the distant future, the pronouns, subject nouns, and the verbs changed! It’s the easiest way to tell when Yeshua` was talking about the near future and when He was talking about the distant future.

Regarding the “abomination of desolation” which is a fancy way of saying the “detestable thing that leaves it empty,” it is simply WRONG to use Daniel 11:31 for either our future or Yeshua`s words in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. This verse is SPECIFICALLY for Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He fulfilled this verse on 25 Kislev 168 B.C. when he set up an idol of the Olympian Zeus in the Temple court and sacrificed a pig upon the altar. Aren’t LABELS “great?” (Tongue in cheek.) They have a knack for isolating a simple phrase so that it can’t mean anything else! Actually, Yeshua` was referring to the portion in Daniel 9:27, not Daniel 11:31, and it was HE who left those in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) “DESOLATE,” and He did so for THEIR abominations!

Daniel 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he (referring back to the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV


Matthew 23:33-39
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

So, when Yeshua` said,

Matthew 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand (set up) in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV


He was NOT talking about OUR future! He was directing His comments TO HIS DISCIPLES right there in front of Him THAT DAY and referring to THEIR near future! And, Titus DID set up a Roman eagle within the Temple courtyard, although he didn’t have to set up anything for Scripture to be fulfilled! The burning of the Temple WAS a detestable act that left them empty and without a place of worship! When the soldiers tore apart the stones of the Temple to get to the gold melted between those stones, that, too, was part of this detestable act that left them empty!

HOWEVER, one must also note that it was YESHUA` who split the seventieth Seven in half! It was HE who said, “Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” That sentence comes from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner (the “head stone of the angle”, the “capstone”).
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV


The Hebrew of this sentence is “Baruwkh haba’ b-shem YHWH,” and it means “Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH.” He LEFT them and left them DESOLATE until they can welcome Him back as YHWH’S Messiah - the Comer in YHWH’S authority - thereby splitting the Seven at the halfway point! The first half of the Seven was fulfilled in the “ministry” of the Messiah, that is, the three-and-a-half-year period in which He offered the Kingdom to Israel. The second half shall not be fulfilled until His Return in our future.

Thus, part of the Olivet Discourse has already been fulfilled, but part of it shall not be fulfilled until the Messiah returns!
 

keras

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Retro, Isaiah 66:15-16 and the over 100 prophesies about the Lord's Day of wrath do not relate to the Return as in Rev. 19:11, Matthew 24:30 and Zech 14:3-4, because the Day of wrath is NOT he same Day as the Return. It is the next event we can expect, a sudden, shocking blast of fire from the sun:.

[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 28:21 The Lord will arise as He did on Mt Perazim, [/SIZE][1 Chron. 14:11] and storm with rage as He did in the valley of Gibeon, [Joshua 10:9-15] to do what He must do, to perform a strange and alien task.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 29:5 Suddenly, in an instant the horde of your enemies will crumble into dust, [/SIZE]punishment will come from the Lord, with thunder, earthquakes, with storm and tempest and flames of devouring fire.
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 13:6-13 Cry out: for the Day of the Lord is at hand,[/SIZE] it will come in a mighty destruction. Fear will grip everyone, men will lose courage at the coming disaster. That cruel Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is coming to reduce all the earth to a desolation and to destroy the evil and godless people on it. It will be a Day of darkness, on the day that the Lord brings disaster onto the world and due punishment to the wicked. He will put an end to arrogance and will humble the pride of the ruthless. Humans will become as scarce as fine gold, on the Day that the heavens will be moved and the earth shaken from its place, at the wrath of the Lord, in the Day of His blazing anger. [SIZE=11pt]Ref. REB, some verses abridged.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]As Isaiah tells us: The Lord has in the past acted to destroy His enemies and now: once again, He will take action and perform His fiery punishment. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 42:14 Long have I restrained Myselfnow I groan like a woman in labour. I shall lay to waste the earth and cause the streams and lakes to dry up. [/SIZE] Isaiah 59:18, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 64:1-2, Psalm 68:1-2, Jer. 12:14, Deut.32:26-35

[SIZE=11pt]The Lord will arise, to perform a strange task[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – to punish His enemies, the attackers of Israel and to [/SIZE]humble the godless.
[SIZE=11pt]Punishment will come from the Lord [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]– not a nuclear war or anything instigated by man, but triggered by an Islamic attack onto Israel. Isaiah 21:2 & 22:6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Suddenly, in an instant[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – This is the event that [/SIZE]‘will come like a thief’, unexpectedly.
[SIZE=11pt]earthquakes[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – Earthquakes will be caused by the microwave effect of the[/SIZE] electromagnetic pulse in a massive coronal mass ejection. Isaiah 30:26, Mal. 4:1
[SIZE=11pt]devouring fire [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]– The fireball of the high temperature cosmic particles of a CME.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]the Day of the Lord is at hand[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – This is the logical result of most of mankind’s rejection of God and His Laws. Hebrews 10:27[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Fear will grip everyone[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – This sudden and shocking event will terrify all those people unaware of God’s plans. Ezekiel 7:15-19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]a mighty destruction[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], [/SIZE]to reduce the earth to desolation – A worldwide disaster.
[SIZE=11pt]a day of darkness[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – The smoke from city and forest fires and ash from volcanoes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Humans will become scarce[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – Millions will die from the initial strike and millions more from famine and the fighting afterward. Jeremiah 9:22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]the heavens move[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – the magnetosphere and the atmosphere will be severely affected. 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 6:14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]the earth will shake from its place[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – the hit from this CME may cause the earth’s orbit to speed up, thereby giving us a 360 day year, which is the prophetic year. Isaiah 24:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]His blazing anger[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] – It is appropriate that the Lord will use the sun, our life sustainer, to judge mankind. Deut.32:34-35 A CME solar flare perfectly and literally fulfils all the prophesied effects, but it will quickly pass by, leaving the world to recover. A world that will never be the same again and the stage will be set for all the other prophesied things to happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.[/SIZE]



.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Retro, Isaiah 66:15-16 and the over 100 prophesies about the Lord's Day of wrath do not relate to the Return as in Rev. 19:11, Matthew 24:30 and Zech 14:3-4, because the Day of wrath is NOT he same Day as the Return. It is the next event we can expect, a sudden, shocking blast of fire from the sun.
You are delusional to come up with the unscientific rendering that a coronal mass ejection is going to reach out and sear the earth as the fulfillment of the fire verses associated with the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

The mishmash of 'this means that' and 'that means this' set of verses you throw together is just as illogical, but thinking you alone possess the truth, also manifests your delusion more than sets of verses you throw at the wall constitutes a legitimate exegesis concerning the Day of The Lord.

So, the Day of The Lord most definitely does see His Return as He foretold in Matthew 24:30. His Wrath follows our Rescue just as the Trumpets follow the sixth Seal's opening which is set parallel to Mt 24:30.

The Day of The Lord is not at hand and is not the next prophetic event to visit the earth; your kooky date setting will prove null and void.
 

keras

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Marcus, Please explain what is 'delusional' about a Coronal Mass Ejection affecting the Earth? Google it, check on Wikipedia, or look at spaceweather.com, for how CME's have hit earth and caused damage in the past and are expected to in the future. This is simple research, that you can't be bothered to do, you style is to 'shoot the messenger'.

Quite happy to change the given sequence of Revelation are you? And to push all the events of the scroll into the Day of Jesus' Return? I doubt that very many here or anywhere would agree with that notion.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
Quite happy to change the given sequence of Revelation are you? And to push all the events of the scroll into the Day of Jesus' Return? I doubt that very many here or anywhere would agree with that notion.
I didn't say that - that's more of your delusional thinking.

I said, the first Trumpet supplies the fire and blood for the Day of the Lord. The second Trumpet does not need to sound for quite a while. It is foolish to think the trumpets sound in the same amount of time on earth as it takes for you to read them and misconstrue them.
keras said:
Marcus, Please explain what is 'delusional' about a Coronal Mass Ejection affecting the Earth? Google it, check on Wikipedia, or look at spaceweather.com, for how CME's have hit earth and caused damage in the past and are expected to in the future. This is simple research, that you can't be bothered to do, you style is to 'shoot the messenger'.
You are delusional. A coronal mass ejection isn't going to BURN the earth.

I watch the sun because, at times, it affects aviation. But the worst it does is a minor irritant... like some message board posters I know.

When a CME erupts from the Sun, magnetized plasma is hurled into space interrupting the steady solar wind. The ejected coronal material moves through the solar wind, creating a disturbance. This disturbance may include a shock wave that moves ahead of the CME, accelerating some solar wind particles to high energies as it moves. This process adds to any other energetic particles that may be present from an associated flare. If the CME reaches the Earth there can be significant consequences to communications, satellite operations and power generation. International Space Station astronauts must be aware of extra vehicular activities (EVAs) during these "magnetic storms" because of the possible radiation doses from the energetic particles, and aircraft flying polar routes may choose to delay their departure. But, there is also beauty in these events in the awesome polar region auroras that occur when the solar wind disturbance reaches us. The aurora image was taken from the Space Shuttle. -- http://cse.ssl.berkeley.edu/coronalweather/CMEsFlares/page3.html
 

keras

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Marcus says: 'A Coronal Mass Ejection isn't going to burn the earth'.
You get an fail for your homework on CME's. Google 'Carrington Event', or 'Quebec blackout', to get some idea of the damage they cause to earth.

The CME that the Lord will use on His Day of wrath, be unprecedented and will literally cause all the vivid effects prophesied about that Day. Malachi 4:1, Zeph 3:8, Deut 32:22

Yes, the First Trumpet does burn a third of the earth. This is another fiery event, later and not so extensive as the Sixth Seal, that many prophesies say will be worldwide. 2 Peter 3:7, Luke 21:35, Rev 14:19
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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You're still delusional on CME's - The Day of the Lord Wrath is not at hand nor will it involve them to fulfill the fire portion of that prophecy.

The truth is not whatever you believe in that head of yours.

Now I will tell you about the massive devastation the Day of the Lord's Wrath will bring!

Mountains will "smoke."

Imagine, if you will, the Yellowstone caldera erupting. It's due. It's happened before, and it will happen again. It is not unprecedented unlike some fantasy about solar flares and the sun's corona.

It will devastate three states immediately and it will blanket the entire farming portion of the Midwest of the United States in ash.

It will short out the power grid for North America.

It will cause massive disruption to all forms of travel.

It will probably not be the only volcanic eruption...

But it will turn the tables on the wicked who previously took the mark of the beast and had no compassion on the Elect who were deprived of food, water, clothing, and shelter during the Great Tribulation.
 

keras

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What you seem to miss, Marcus, is that the Lord's Day of wrath is a worldwide event. Yes, it's likely the Yellowstone will erupt, along with volcanoes in my country too. Deut 32:22 For a fir has been kindled by My wrath....it will devour the earth....and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Zech 3:8
But of course, His wrath is centred onto the Holy Land, as Isaiah 17:1, Ezekiel 30:1-5 and Amos 1 say. It will be triggered by the Psalm 83 attack on Israel. Note that Deut 32:43 says 'He will cleanse His peoples Land'. This is what is so necessary right now!

Only a CME can literally fulfil all the prophesies about that Day, it will be a actual Day, as well, as a CME will pass quickly.
 

Born_Again

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This is why I feel it is just best to be prepared for His 2nd coming. We don't know the day or hour and it's better that way. Who knows what will trigger it. The Lord is the only one who knows and its just best to be ready at all times. It may or may not happen in our life time. Look at it from this angle too if you want. If the Sun goes supernova, that will scorch the Earth into nothing as well. Good debate though, guys. I really have enjoyed reading it. Just my humble thoughts.....
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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A coronal mass ejection is not likely to ever start a single, major fire (outside of melting some electrical equipment), much less burn a third of the earth as the first Trumpet will.

Not only does what you present belie scientific reality, it is not even Biblically correct. The Day of the Lord's Wrath is preceded by several events which have not yet come to pass.

On the scientific front, the Carrington event of 1859 hardly registers as a single match being lit compared to the destruction the first Trumpet will bring to the earth, although it did start some very small paper fires with overheated telegraph equipment. Bruce McKerras, you are full of it to claim CME's, which are happening all the time, will actually penetrate the earth's magnetosphere and start physical fires on the order of a third of the earth. You are off in never-never fantasy land to say so. There is no scientific basis for what you say WILL happen. Of course, God, being God, could make that happen, but it would have to be on a magnitude so much greater, and spread out over 24 hours to affect the earth as prophecy demands. That would be so large an event that scientists would call it something else because literal pieces of plasma would have to be pointedly focused towards the earth and pierce the atmosphere repeatedly over 24 hours instead of an ion storm of charged particles from a plasma cloud which is rapidly spreading outward in cube square fashion which typically lasts only a few hours. CME's pose no threat to life on earth.

On the Biblical front, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus told us the Day of the Lord will be preceded by the midpoint abomination (which means the one 'seven' must have begun), then the Great Tribulation, which is then abruptly interrupted by the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord, which as Jesus told us (first) sees the gathering of the elect.

This also aligns with what Jesus showed John with the sixth Seal (not the end of the one 'seven' at Armageddon presented in Rev 19:11) where the sun/moon/star event happens and afterward, the Great Multitude is safe in the "barn of Heaven" before God the Father - and that all comes before God's Wrath - which follows by at least a half an hour after - with an Angel sounding the first Trumpet - which DOES supply the fire and blood for the Day of the Lord's Wrath!

This also aligns with the parallel account of the one 'seven' with the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ in Revelation chapters 13 through 16 whereby after the talking image of the anti-Christ occurs first and then two laws come into being (which makes the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect) and then Jesus harvests the earth from the clouds - and then God's Wrath follows.

So - before first Trumpet sounds comes we can expect to see the midpoint abomination, the Great Tribulation, the sun/moon/star event, and then the Rapture. We won't even be here to see the Day of the Lord's Wrath and that's why it's not even mentioned to the Church in the Olivet Discourse. Only later is it revealed.

Coming from a person who presents himself as the truth, as you represent a danger to anyone who is roped into your cajoling challenges on what to believe about end-time prophecy. You then go off the deep-end when you begin to set dates; that is strictly in kook-ville and the landscape is replete with fallen pillars of "truth" who sought to peg the Day of our Lord's Return. For those reading this tit-for-tat, I will battle your nonsense as much as you rail against "false teaching" - which in your world is anything that goes against what you say is the truth.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Marcus.

Marcus O'Reillius said:
.
A coronal mass ejection is not likely to ever start a single, major fire (outside of melting some electrical equipment), much less burn a third of the earth as the first Trumpet will.

Not only does what you present belie scientific reality, it is not even Biblically correct. The Day of the Lord's Wrath is preceded by several events which have not yet come to pass.

On the scientific front, the Carrington event of 1859 hardly registers as a single match being lit compared to the destruction the first Trumpet will bring to the earth, although it did start some very small paper fires with overheated telegraph equipment. Bruce McKerras, you are full of it to claim CME's, which are happening all the time, will actually penetrate the earth's magnetosphere and start physical fires on the order of a third of the earth. You are off in never-never fantasy land to say so. There is no scientific basis for what you say WILL happen. Of course, God, being God, could make that happen, but it would have to be on a magnitude so much greater, and spread out over 24 hours to affect the earth as prophecy demands. That would be so large an event that scientists would call it something else because literal pieces of plasma would have to be pointedly focused towards the earth and pierce the atmosphere repeatedly over 24 hours instead of an ion storm of charged particles from a plasma cloud which is rapidly spreading outward in cube square fashion which typically lasts only a few hours. CME's pose no threat to life on earth.

On the Biblical front, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus told us the Day of the Lord will be preceded by the midpoint abomination (which means the one 'seven' must have begun), then the Great Tribulation, which is then abruptly interrupted by the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord, which as Jesus told us (first) sees the gathering of the elect.

This also aligns with what Jesus showed John with the sixth Seal (not the end of the one 'seven' at Armageddon presented in Rev 19:11) where the sun/moon/star event happens and afterward, the Great Multitude is safe in the "barn of Heaven" before God the Father - and that all comes before God's Wrath - which follows by at least a half an hour after - with an Angel sounding the first Trumpet - which DOES supply the fire and blood for the Day of the Lord's Wrath!

This also aligns with the parallel account of the one 'seven' with the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ in Revelation chapters 13 through 16 whereby after the talking image of the anti-Christ occurs first and then two laws come into being (which makes the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect) and then Jesus harvests the earth from the clouds - and then God's Wrath follows.

So - before first Trumpet sounds comes we can expect to see the midpoint abomination, the Great Tribulation, the sun/moon/star event, and then the Rapture. We won't even be here to see the Day of the Lord's Wrath and that's why it's not even mentioned to the Church in the Olivet Discourse. Only later is it revealed.

Coming from a person who presents himself as the truth, as you represent a danger to anyone who is roped into your cajoling challenges on what to believe about end-time prophecy. You then go off the deep-end when you begin to set dates; that is strictly in kook-ville and the landscape is replete with fallen pillars of "truth" who sought to peg the Day of our Lord's Return. For those reading this tit-for-tat, I will battle your nonsense as much as you rail against "false teaching" - which in your world is anything that goes against what you say is the truth.
In all this crazy rhetoric, please show Scriptural proof of the far-out claims you are making, like what makes you think that “the midpoint abomination” is yet in the future? What are the “two laws” of which you speak? What makes you think that the Olivet Discourse is “to the Church?” And, what gives you the idea of a “talking image of the anti-Christ?” These are FAR too specific for the Scriptures to give you proof!
 

keras

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Marcus said: Keras repiles: Coming from a person who presents himself as the truth, The Prophetic Word is truth, not me personally. as you represent a danger to anyone who is roped into your cajoling challenges on what to believe about end-time prophecy. If anyone is pushing their beliefs, it is you. You then go off the deep-end when you begin to set dates; I posted a Bible verse that gave a Day; the 24th day of the seventh month; Haggai 2:20 that is strictly in kook-ville and the landscape is replete with fallen pillars of "truth" who sought to peg the Day of our Lord's Return. True, many have made that mistake. For those reading this tit-for-tat, I will battle your nonsense as much as you rail against "false teaching" - which in your world is anything that goes against what you say is the truth. Great, what is worse than someone refuting like you do, nasty as it is, is no one taking any notice and ignoring the scriptures I point out.

Re a CME: God says that it will penetrate our magnetosphere and atmosphere. Rev 6:11, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 34:4
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Rev 6:11? Nope, you missed it. That deals with the fifth Seal martyrs. -1
2Pe 3:10? Nope. As an observer-true passage, Israel suffers the most on the Day of the Lord. The roar of the sky: "the noise made by something passing swiftly through the air," can definitely be related to the scrolling of the sky. The elements may again refer to celestial bodies as per Isaiah 34:4 - but it does not denote an abnormal CME on the order of millions of times greater. Your fantasy again Mr. McKerras.
Isa 34:4? Nope. Again, it is referring to the scrolling of the sky which is, I think, the sign of the Son of Man.

None of these denote a coronal mass ejection, which happens all the time, and is only a plasma cloud of charged particles - not flaming bits of the sun itself raining down on the earth. That's your fantasy McKerras.

Retrobyter said:
In all this crazy rhetoric, please show Scriptural proof of the far-out claims you are making, like what makes you think that “the midpoint abomination” is yet in the future? What are the “two laws” of which you speak? What makes you think that the Olivet Discourse is “to the Church?” And, what gives you the idea of a “talking image of the anti-Christ?” These are FAR too specific for the Scriptures to give you proof!
Oh yeah! That's right! According to you Jesus said - "when you see the abomination of desolation WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ONE 'SEVEN' SPOKEN ABOUT BY THE PROPHET DANIEL!..."

Retro: what is crazy is your blue pill matrix of partial preterism which says Jesus confirms a limited time covenant for only seven years and the abomination of desolation already happened.

And the complaint for those that don't like the obvious conclusions of the keystone passage for eschatological study: saying that this fifth discourse (Matthew centers around the five major discourses of Jesus) is NOT directed at the Church because the people to whom He addressed it to are Jewish - then means we could dismiss ALL of Jesus' discourses in the Gospel because they were spoken to Jews! No, the then-Disciples are the nexus of the Church who became Apostles for Christ and gave us the Bible. The word "Elect," used by Matthew, written some 20 years later, also reflects the inclusiveness of the Church which grew from its Jewish roots to see goyim receive the Holy Spirit in Acre as per Acts.
 

keras

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Typo; Revelation 6:14 The sky vanished, like a scroll being rolled up..... This and all the other verses about the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, are extreme stuff, far more that any CME that we have experienced so far,' it will not be a fire to warm yourself by!' Isaiah 49:14

Fantasy? Here are verses that prove the reality:
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 65:1-3 The Lord springs into action! His enemies scatter like smoke and the godless are destroyed before Him. The righteous are happy and praise God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 66:15-16 The Lord will judge with fire...He will test mankind, many will be slain by Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]1 Peter 4:12-19 Do not be afraid of the fiery ordeal that comes to test everyone. Judgement is coming, continue in your faith, entrust your souls to Him, your Maker will not fail you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Jeremiah 30:7 How awful is that Day, it will be a time of anguish for Jacob[/SIZE], [His people] yet they will come through it safely.
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 24:6 A curse covers the earth, its people suffer – their numbers dwindle, only a few are left.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 10:19 ....forests and pastures will be suddenly devastated, only a few trees will remain.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 29:4 Judah will be brought low, the few survivors will hide underground.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] Isaiah 29:22-23 This will be no time for Israel to be shamed, they will regard the Lord with awe.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Zephaniah 3:8-10 The whole earth will be burned by the fire of My anger....then I shall purify the speech of the peoples, that they may call upon the Name of the Lord. My worshippers, now far off, will bring offerings to Me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Ezekiel 34:12 I shall rescue My sheep from wherever they have been scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 45:20 Gather together and come near, you survivors of the nations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 58:11-12 The Lord will guide and satisfy you in the sun scorched Land. You will rebuild the ancient ruins and restore the houses and towns.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 69:34-36 The Lord will deliver Zion and rebuild the towns of Judah. His people will settle there and possess the holy Land[/SIZE].

[SIZE=medium]Ezekiel 36:36 The nations around that remain, will know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate[/SIZE].
[SIZE=medium]Ezekiel 6:8-18 As the slain fall around you, you will know that I am the Lord[/SIZE]. But among the nations, there will be some of you that will survive. They will remember Me; those of My people, scattered in exile, when I remove their idolatrous hearts. They will loath themselves for the evils they committed and know My threats were not in vain.
[SIZE=medium]Ref: REB. NIV. Some verses abridged.[/SIZE]
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Nice array of end-time passages but none of that proves anything, Mister McKerras, about a coronal mass ejection being the fire of the Day of the Lord.

You would need some evidence in the Bible that this particular burning fire, which scorches a third of the earth, comes from the sun, and it's just not there.

In Joel 2, however, we see that fire leads the advance of God's Army - which is quite unlike your heavenly scenario from above. Here it is lateral:

1 Blow a trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
For the day of the Lord is coming;
Surely it is near,


2 A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people;
There has never been anything like it,
Nor will there be again after it
To the years of many generations.


3 A fire consumes before them
And behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them
But a desolate wilderness behind them,
And nothing at all escapes them
.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Marcus.

Marcus O'Reillius said:
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Oh yeah! That's right! According to you Jesus said - "when you see the abomination of desolation WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ONE 'SEVEN' SPOKEN ABOUT BY THE PROPHET DANIEL!..."

Retro: what is crazy is your blue pill matrix of partial preterism which says Jesus confirms a limited time covenant for only seven years and the abomination of desolation already happened.

And the complaint for those that don't like the obvious conclusions of the keystone passage for eschatological study: saying that this fifth discourse (Matthew centers around the five major discourses of Jesus) is NOT directed at the Church because the people to whom He addressed it to are Jewish - then means we could dismiss ALL of Jesus' discourses in the Gospel because they were spoken to Jews! No, the then-Disciples are the nexus of the Church who became Apostles for Christ and gave us the Bible. The word "Elect," used by Matthew, written some 20 years later, also reflects the inclusiveness of the Church which grew from its Jewish roots to see goyim receive the Holy Spirit in Acre as per Acts.
Scripture, please! SCRIPTURE!