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Oh, just a “pocket of believers that are alive at His advent?” I don’t think so! It would be better if you read the REST of the story in Z’kharyahu’s prophecy ... and in a better version than most.guysmith said:I am intrigued by your use of the term "rescued."
I see that the dead in Christ shall be raised from the dead at the first resurrection. Basically these believers have been spared from being cast into the lake of fire and the second death.
Zechariah 14:1-5 is a description of Christ coming and saves / "rescues" a pocket of believers that are alive at His advent.
So, does the word "saved" mean "rescued" and apply only to those that are alive at Christ's advent?
And, what word does the Bible use for "spared from the second death" for the dead in Christ?
May YHWH bless you.
Agreed.Retrobyter said:What guides my study is the consistency and thoroughness of definitions to which the Ruach haQodesh has led me that all began when I accepted the fact that the Bible was written to children of Israel by children of Israel about children of Israel. That Goyim (Gentiles) were included at all is an appendix to the Bible.
So, yes, I definitely see the “rescue” as the message of “this gospel of the Kingdom” or “this good news about the Kingdom of God."
Heavens, no! Now that the Goyim are included, believing Goyim have become ONE with the children of Israel IN THE MESSIAH! (Outside of the Messiah, there is still a difference between the Goyim and the children of Israel.)guysmith said:Agreed.
Do you think that Gentiles are excluded from the rescue at the end of the age?
Are you planning to go when the time comes?
Why? How are “all the nations” blessed if not through the Messiah?! However, the Messiah is an ISRAELI concept! The ONLY thing that distinguishes those Goyim called “Christians” and children of Israel called “Messianic Jews” from the children of Israel who are NOT called “Messianic Jews” regarding the Messiah is that “Christians,” or rather, “believers,” is that believers know that YESHUA` from Natsaret is that one and only Messiah!Trekson said:Hi Retro, Your words, "when I accepted the fact that the Bible was written to children of Israel by children of Israel about children of Israel. That Goyim (Gentiles) were included at all is an appendix to the Bible."
Wow, I can't believe you said that! When you take into consideration, that everyone until the sons of Abraham were Gentiles and that from the very beginning, the promise to Abraham stated that "all the nations will be blessed because of his righteousness" so Gentiles were included in God's plan from the very beginning! If anything, I would say the OT is a cautionary tale about NOT being like Israel. The NT is for those of the new creation where being either Gentile or Israel has no standing at all. Gentiles are certainly not a "plan B appendix"!! I really think you're smarter than that.
At the resurrection, there will be two groups of believers 1) the dead in Christ 2) those believers that never tasted death.Retrobyter said:Go? Go where? Do you mean “to heaven?” If so, no. I don’t believe that ANYONE “goes to heaven.” If you mean “to Israel,” then sure. When Yeshua` returns and resurrects/transforms His people, those of us who were once considered “Goyim” will be resurrected and transformed just as His own people will be.
I can agree with this IF you first define who “the dead in Christ” are and second, what it means to be an “end time believer.” And, this is ESPECIALLY true in light of the fact that you believe they are “the remnant of Israel” or “the remnant that Adonai calls!” You may want to define those terms as well. To whom was Yo’el writing in “Joel 2:32?” (Also, I think you are just WAY off the mark to believe “the woman and the man-child” are the “remnant.”)guysmith said:At the resurrection, there will be two groups of believers 1) the dead in Christ 2) those believers that never tasted death.
I see "This gospel of the kingdom" as "rescue" instructions for those believers that will be alive at the time of Christ return. These "end time believers" are recognized as "the remnant of Israel" or "the remnant that Adonai calls" (Joel 2:32) Another example of these "remnant" is "the woman and the man-child" which are protected for the 1260 days of the GT (Revelation 12). This protection is location specific to Israel.
Also, the time graphs are part of the "rescue" instructions for those that "watch."
... And THAT is why you will never fully understand the Scriptures! It IS all about Israel and to deny that fact is to deny God’s Messiah! Sure it is God’s concept, but Israel was, is, and always will be God’s people! God does NOT renege on His promises!Trekson said:Hi Retro, Two things. Your words: "However, the Messiah is an ISRAELI concept!"
I would say that it is God's concept, revealed to Israel but always meant to include Gentiles.
Your words: "...Goyim would be an appendix to the promises to Israel."
The main promise was to Abraham and not Israel in general and it was to those who were righteous through faith regardless of their bloodline. The promise of the law had "conditions" that for the most part Israel failed to live up to and many of those promises only found fulfillment in the church.
I don't think "appendix" is the right word. Appendix implies supplementary, a note added to the end. I consider it more like a three act play. The OT was Act 1, The NT, was Act 2 and the end times as Act 3. Both Acts 1 &2 are vital to the story line as written from the beginning. I'm sorry, but it's not all about Israel, It never was.
LOL!!!! Are you SERIOUS?!!! HA! HA! HA! So, Israel has no place in the New Jerusalem?!?!?! HUH?! Is that why each of the twelve gates is inscribed with the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?! Where’s the gate for the “righteous?!” Where’s the gate for the “Gentile?!” Which gate are YOU going through?! To which tribe do YOU belong?!Trekson said:Hi Retro, We’ve been down this path before and we both believe we are correct in our understanding of scripture, but you nailed it at the end of your post.
Your words: “And, finally, there’s nothing special about the “church” itself. It is the PEOPLE - the BELIEVERS in the Messiah - WITHIN the “church” who are special - holy - to God! The word translated “church” is the Greek word “ekkleesia” meaning a “called out” assembly. The word “church” comes from the Greek word “kuriokon” meaning “of the Lord!” Thus, the FULL name of the gathering IN EACH TOWN OR CITY is “ekkleesia kuriokon” or the “called out” assembly “of the Lord!” There were many assemblies that were "called out.” This is the specific name of the Lord’s "called out” assembly, but it was a LOCAL, VISIBLE assembly, not some universal, invisible organization! However, when the Scriptures say that “Christ died for the church,” He wasn’t dying for an organization! He was dying for INDIVIDUALS! That’s VERY important to remember!”
I agree with your statement about the church, and that is the exact thing you need to remember about Israel! It never was the tribes or the nation. Only the righteous individuals within them had any standing with God! When you come to understand this, we will finally be in agreement. Change the word “church” in your statement and replace it with “Israel” and the truth will be revealed! It can be read both ways and still be a truthful statement.
Your words: “... And THAT is why you will never fully understand the Scriptures! It IS all about Israel and to deny that fact is to deny God’s Messiah! Sure it is God’s concept, but Israel was, is, and always will be God’s people! God does NOT renege on His promises!”
The highlighted part is just NOT true! It has always been the righteous that are God’s people! The righteous, be they Jew or Gentile become part of God’s family. The unrighteous part of the nation of Israel was just basically a tool designed to fulfill God’s purposes. It could just have easily been Oriental or Nubian but it was Abraham who was found righteous because of his faith. The future nation of Israel had/has nothing to do with it, it’s always been about the righteous remnant!
Romans 3:1-2 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (Greek: ta logia [based on logos] = "the utterances/words") of God. KJV
This verse tells me they won’t have much of an excuse come judgment day The prior verse Rom. 2:29 puts this in the proper perspective.
Rom. 2:29 – “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
It’s all about the spirit now. Things have changed! National Israel means nothing and the natural world of the Gentiles means nothing. We, as believers, are a “new creation”, we leave the old behind and God builds our unified spirits into something new.
Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. ( regarding vs. 12, it is only the righteous that had a true citizenship in Israel and were of the promise) 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away (Gentiles) and peace to those who were near (Jews). 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, (which are the righteous, not Israel in general) 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (both children of Israel!), with Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. NIV
This is an excellent passage and you highlighted vss. 12, 13, 19-21 what you thought were important and I’ve highlighted the parts of the passage that I think is important. The Jews need to put Israel behind them as Gentiles put the world behind. Gal. 6:16 uses the term, “the Israel of God.” The “Israel of God” is a NEW creation. It’s not the nation of Israel that is important it’s what the “word” Israel means, which according to Gen. 32:28 means “a prince of God” as in royalty.
1 Pet. 2:9 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;”
That is what makes us a part of the NEW Israel. Mark 2:21-22 – “No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse. 22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
What do you think this verse is saying? Believers in Christ are the “new cloth” and the “new wine”. The “old cloth” and the “old bottles” are Israel and the law and the ‘world” of the Gentiles! We SHOULD NOT try to put our new creation back into its OLD identity, be it Israel or the world.
Romans 11:28-29 – “28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.” NIV
Yes and when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, God will keep His promises (144,000) but that has nothing to do with the here and now. Nobody is saying that God doesn’t love Israel. They are part of the world and “God so loved the world…” but God doesn’t play favorites no matter how much you want to believe that for “God is no respecter of persons” and that includes Israelites!
Your words: “They are the “people of the Book!” They are MISHPACHAH - FAMILY! A Believer in Yeshua` must EMBRACE his own Israeli ("Jewish”) heritage! Believers ARE children of Israel, too, through being born again into Yeshua`s family!”
You’re kind of missing the point here. God’s family is only made up of the righteous! The non-righteous part of Israel that isn’t part of the righteous remnant are kind of like “the red-headed step-child”, yes, they’re kind of part of the family but they have no real standing. Let’s see what Christ had to say about family:
Matt. 12:50 – “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Mark 13:12 – “Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.”
Luke 12:51-53 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”
Matt. 10:36-37 – “And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”
[SIZE=12pt]So, no, it’s not really about family. The questions are: Do you love God and His new creation, more than your old concept of what Israel was? Are you willing to put your “old world” behind you and be part of His NJ? For the old Israel has no place in the NJ. The only requirement for citizenship in the NJ is a belief in Christ and righteousness by faith. One’s bloodlines don’t matter at all![/SIZE]
Okay. You’re almost there! These are good answers ... as far as they go, but you now need to take the last step:Trekson said:Hi Retro, Well, I must say that you seem to be over-reacting a bit. I think we talked back and forth enough so you should know that anytime I mention the righteous, it is the righteousness of Christ that is implied not our own righteousness.
Your words: "So, Israel has no place in the New Jerusalem?!?!?! HUH?! Is that why each of the twelve gates is inscribed with the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?! Where’s the gate for the “righteous?!” Where’s the gate for the “Gentile?!” Which gate are YOU going through?! To which tribe do YOU belong?"
I believe I said "old" Israel and there is a tremendous amount of difference between the two. To answer your last three questions: Judah of course! As joint-heirs with Christ. In fact, everyone from His death and resurrection will enter that gate even if they are born again Jews of a different tribe.
Your words: "It has NEVER BEEN ANY OTHER WAY, neither in Israel nor outside of Israel!!! Quit setting up a “straw man hypothesis!” NO ONE is justified by the “Law!" By the Torah! They NEVER have been so justified! It has ALWAYS been by faith! It doesn’t matter if we are talking about 2014 A.D. or 2014 B.C"
I never said anything different.
Your words: "Who was grafted in among whom?! Who was adopted into whom?! "
I'll say it again, Israel is not the Olive Tree! The "tree" is the "way to God", "the path of righteousness by faith" however you want to put it.
Gal. 4:5-7 - "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."
See, even being of national Israel isn't sufficient. Both the Jew and the Gentile are adopted into the new creation of Christ, the 'spiritual" Israel. We are where we are by God's design. Eph. 1:4-5 - "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Your words: "Don’t you DARE to call yourself among the “righteous!” It’s not YOUR right to declare the “church” to be the “righteous,” just as it is NOT YOUR right to declare Israel “unrighteous!"
Of course it's my right. All christians who are members of His Church/Body are covered by Christ's righteousness. Everyone knows that "our" righteousness is as filthy rags before God, but when God looks at us He sees the righteousness of His Son as our covering.
2 Co. 5:21 - "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
It is because of our faith that we attain His righteousness. It began with Abel and continues with us (Heb. 11)
1John 3:7,10 - "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous...10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
So the paradigm is set in scripture and we have the "right" to recognize the truths as presented in His word. For NT believers, if we have faith in Christ, we have been declared righteous! For those of the OT, if they had and exercised their faith in God, they too were declared righteous. All those of both eras, who do not have faith are unrighteous. It's not me that is saying that, it's God's word! Why would you think we don't have the right to declare God's word?
BTW, The scripture you gave: Rom. 3:10-18 is a description of Israel mainly by David as found in various Psalms and a couple of passages from Isaiah and of course it applies to the Gentiles as well.
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.