Retrobyter, concerning the rescue

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guysmith

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Shalom Retrobyter,

I have always understood your definition of "rescued"

I am interested in doing a word study. Can you give me some background and references please. Thanx

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, guysmith.

Oh, we’re doing this publicly, too? Sure. I may have said this already in one of the posts, but if you just look at Romans 10:13 and its counterpart (from which it was quoted), Joel 2:32, that will give you some background. Consider ALL of the context of Joel 2:32, i.e., the whole book of Joel, and then re-read the context of Romans 10:13, Romans chapters 9 through 11. Christians today frequently use the “Romans Road of Salvation” and try to pull everything for the formula for “salvation,” which should actually be called “justification by God,” from the book of Romans. However, that FORCES the Scriptures to say what they do NOT really say. That process is known as “eisegesis,” reading INTO the Scriptures what one wants them to say.

We should be using the process called “exegesis,” reading what we should believe OUT of the Scriptures; letting the human authors speak for themselves and reading those Scriptures with an open mind to those authors. We should NOT be anticipating what the authors are trying to say, second-guessing where the authors are going with their arguments, and we should AVOID "putting words in their mouths.” We should let the authors say their whole piece and THEN see how God’s Word comes from their writings.

Hope this helps. I’ll put together more verses in a little while. Been busy lately, but shall write again. May the Master bless you.
 

guysmith

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I am intrigued by your use of the term "rescued."

I see that the dead in Christ shall be raised from the dead at the first resurrection. Basically these believers have been spared from being cast into the lake of fire and the second death.

Zechariah 14:1-5 is a description of Christ coming and saves / "rescues" a pocket of believers that are alive at His advent.

So, does the word "saved" mean "rescued" and apply only to those that are alive at Christ's advent?

And, what word does the Bible use for "spared from the second death" for the dead in Christ?

May YHWH bless you.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, guysmith.

guysmith said:
I am intrigued by your use of the term "rescued."

I see that the dead in Christ shall be raised from the dead at the first resurrection. Basically these believers have been spared from being cast into the lake of fire and the second death.

Zechariah 14:1-5 is a description of Christ coming and saves / "rescues" a pocket of believers that are alive at His advent.

So, does the word "saved" mean "rescued" and apply only to those that are alive at Christ's advent?

And, what word does the Bible use for "spared from the second death" for the dead in Christ?

May YHWH bless you.
Oh, just a “pocket of believers that are alive at His advent?” I don’t think so! It would be better if you read the REST of the story in Z’kharyahu’s prophecy ... and in a better version than most.

Zechariah 14:1-5 is NOT about Yeshua`s return to earth. He will have already returned before that time. One must begin with chapter 9, verse 8, realizing that both advents are seen as one. Yeshua` came the first time as the Messiah Son of Joseph, that is, as the Suffering and dying Messiah (like Joseph suffered at the hands of his brothers and in Egypt). `Yeshua` will come a second time as the Messiah Son of David, that is, as the Victorious and Reigning Messiah (like His ancestor David was victorious and reigned in Jerusalem as Isra’el’s King).

Let’s look at a few excerpts from Z’kharyahu’s prophecy:

Zechariah 9:8-10
8 “Then I will guard my house against armies,
so that none will march through or return.
No oppressor will ever again overrun them,
for now I am watching with my own eyes.
9 Rejoice with all your heart, daughter of Tziyon!
Shout out loud, daughter of Yerushalayim!
Look! Your king is coming to you.
He is righteous, and he is victorious.
Yet he is humble — he’s riding on a donkey,
yes, on a lowly donkey’s colt.
10 I will banish chariots from Efrayim
and war-horses from Yerushalayim.”
The warrior’s bow will be banished,
and he will proclaim peace to the nations.
He will rule from sea to sea,
and from the [Euphrates] River to the ends of the earth [Land].
CJB


The last two thousand years are between verses 9 and 10. Of course, it is possible that He will yet ride again upon a donkey when He offers the Kingdom to Israel a second time in the future after He comes again, since their ancestors rejected Him as their King in the first century A.D.

Zechariah 9:14-16
14 Adonai will appear over them,
and his arrow will flash like lightning.
Adonai Elohim will blow the shofar (ram’s horn trumpet)
and go out in the whirlwinds of the south.
15 Adonai-Tzva’ot (YHWH of Armies) will defend them;
they will devour and trample the sling-stones.
They will drink and roar
as if they had drunk wine;
they will be filled, like basins
and like the corners of the altar.
16 On that day Adonai their God
will save them as the flock of his people;

for they will be like gems in a crown,
sparkling over his countryside
.
CJB


This is talking about the RESURRECTION! His “flock” will GLOW "like gems in a crown, sparkling over His countryside!” Now, look at the next stage:

Zechariah 10:5-10
5 They will be like warriors

trampling the mud of the streets in battle.
They will fight, because Adonai is with them;
they will rout even those on horseback.
6 “I will strengthen the house of Y’hudah (Judah)

and save the house of Yosef (Joseph).
I will bring them back in my compassion for them;
they will be as if I hadn’t driven them out;
for I am Adonai their God,
and I will answer them.
7 Efrayim’s (Ephraim’s) men will be like warriors;
their hearts will be cheered as if from wine.
Their children will see it and rejoice,
their hearts will be glad in Adonai.

8 “I will whistle for them and gather them,
because I have redeemed them;
they will be as numerous
as they were before;
9 and I will sow them among the peoples.
In distant lands they will remember me;
they will rear their children and then return.
10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt
and gather them out of Ashur (Assyria).
I will bring them into Gil‘ad (Gilead) and the L’vanon (Lebanon),
until there is no more room for them.
CJB


How many will there be?! Let’s continue:

Zechariah 12:2-14
2 “I will make Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) a cup
that will stagger the surrounding peoples.
Even Y’hudah (Judah) will be caught up
in the siege against Yerushalayim.
3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim
a heavy stone for all the peoples.
All who try to lift it will hurt [herniate] themselves,
and all the earth’s nations will be massed against her.
4 When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“I will strike all the horses with panic
and their riders with madness;
I will keep watch over Y’hudah,
but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples.
5 The leaders of Y’hudah will say to themselves,
‘Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength
through Adonai-Tzva’ot (YHWH of Armies) their God.’
6 When that day comes,
I will make the leaders of Y’hudah
like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood,
like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain;
they will devour all the surrounding peoples,
on the right and on the left.
Yerushalayim will be inhabited
in her own place, Yerushalayim.
7 Adonai will save (Hebrew: v-howshiya` = “and he-shall-rescue") the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend (Hebrew: yaageen = “he-shall-hedge-about”)
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB


(This is NOT the tribe of Levi, btw.) Where do we see these names again?

Luke 3:23-31
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
CJB


Thus, these names are related VERTICALLY in Yeshua`s family tree, not HORIZONTALLY! What does that mean? For all of them to be present and mourn for the One who was pierced as an ONLY son (as their own son was an only son) or as a FIRSTBORN son (as their own firstborn son would have been mourned), they would have to be present! Therefore, this must occur AFTER the Resurrection!

Furthermore, Zech. 12:7 is proof that Yeshua` will NOT first “land on the Mount of Olives,” as some claim. He SHALL “set foot upon” that mountain, but not until AFTER He has first rescued the tents of Y'hudah.

When Yeshua` arrives, He will NOT instantaneously become King, let alone King of kings. He is first the Messiah - the One Anointed to become the King. Then, as He is accepted as first Y’hudah's King, He will take up His Kingdom. He will then become Isra’el’s King as Ephraim (and the rest of the ten tribes of the northern Kingdom) also come to accept Him as their King, too. He will once again join the two sticks into one nation! (Ezekiel 37:19-22 cf. Zech. 11:14.) He begins to be the King of kings as other kings (and their kingdoms) are either conquered by Him or ASK Him to reign over them! He literally becomes a King over other kings (and presidents and other leaders, as well)! This is the TRUE meaning of the parable of the leaven in Matt. 13 for the leaven IS the Kingdom of God! It is talking about the growth of the Kingdom’s INFLUENCE in the world!

When He first arrives, His zeal will take Him to Botsrah, Edom, where there apparently will be an attempt to exterminate the Jews taking place there.

Isaiah 34:1-16
34:1 Come close, you nations, and listen!
Pay close attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and everything in it;
the world, with all it produces.
2 For Adonai is angry at every nation,
furious with all their armies;
he has completely destroyed them,
handed them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out,
the stench will rise from their corpses,
the mountains will flow with their blood.
4 The whole host of heaven will decompose,
the heavens themselves be rolled up like a scroll;
all their array will wither away
like a withering grape-leaf that falls from a vine
or a withered fig from a fig tree.
5 “For my sword has drunk its fill in heaven;
now it descends on Edom to judge them,
the people I have doomed to destruction.”
6 There is a sword that belongs to Adonai.
It is filled with blood, gorged with fat,
filled with the blood of lambs and goats,
gorged with the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For Adonai has a sacrifice in Botzrah,
a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 The wild oxen will fall with them,
the young bulls with the strong, mature ones.
Their land will be drunk with blood
and their dust made greasy with fat.
8 For Adonai has a day of vengeance,
a year of requital for fighting with Tziyon.
9 Its streams will be changed to tar,
its dust to sulfur, its land burning tar
10 that will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
In all generations it will lie waste;
no one will pass through it ever again.
11 Horned owl and hawk will possess it,
screech owl and raven will live there;
he will stretch over it the measuring line of confusion
and the plumbline of the empty void.
12 Of its nobles, none will be called to be king,
and all its princes will be nothing.
13 Thorns will overgrow its palaces,
nettles and thistles its fortresses;
it will become a lair for jackals,
an enclosure for ostriches.
14 Wildcats and hyenas will meet there;
and billy-goats call to each other;
Lilit [the night monster] will lurk there
and find herself a place to rest.
15 There the hoot owl will nest, lay her eggs,
hatch and gather her young in its shade.
There the vultures will assemble,
every one with its mate.
16 Consult the book of Adonai and read it:
not one of these will be missing,
none will be lacking a mate.
For by his own mouth he gave the order,
and by his Spirit he brought them together.
CJB

Isaiah 63:1-6
63:1 Who is this, coming from Edom,
from Botzrah (Bozrah) with clothing stained crimson,
so magnificently dressed,
so stately in his great strength?
“It is I, who speak victoriously,

I, well able to save.”
2 Why is your apparel red,

your clothes like someone treading a winepress?
3 “I have trodden the winepress alone;

from the peoples, not one was with me.
So I trod them in my anger,
trampled them in my fury;
so their lifeblood spurted out on my clothing,
and I have stained all my garments;
4 for the day of vengeance that was in my heart
and my year of redemption have come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
and I was appalled that no one upheld me.
Therefore my own arm brought me salvation,
and my own fury upheld me.
6 In my anger I trod down the peoples,
made them drunk with my fury,
then poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”
CJB

Jer 49:7-22
7 Concerning Edom, this is what Adonai-Tzva’ot says:
“Is there no wisdom left in Teman?
Have her wise men forgotten how to counsel?
Has their wisdom vanished?
8 Flee! Turn back! Hide yourselves well,
you who live in D’dan (Dedan);
for I am bringing calamity on ‘Esav (Esau),
when the time for me to punish him comes.
9 If grape-pickers came to you,
they would leave no grapes for gleaning.
If thieves came at night,
they would destroy until they were satisfied.
10 So I, for my part, have stripped ‘Esav bare,
I have exposed his hiding-places;
he will not be able to hide himself.
He is doomed — sons, brothers and neighbors —
so that he is no more.
11 Leave your orphans; I will keep them alive;
let your widows trust in me.”
12 For this is what Adonai says: “Those who do not deserve to drink from this cup will have to drink it anyway, so should you go unpunished? No, you will not go unpunished; you will certainly drink it. 13 For I have sworn by myself,” says Adonai, “that Botzrah will become a ruin and an object of astonishment, reproach and cursing; all its cities will be ruins forever.”
14 I have heard a message from Adonai:
“A messenger is sent among the nations, saying:
‘Gather together, and march against her!
Prepare for battle!’
15 Here! I will make you least among nations,
the most despised of people.
16 Your capacity to terrorize
has deceived you and made you arrogant.
You make your home in the rocky crags
and seize the top of the mountain;
but even if you build your nest high as an eagle’s,
from there I will drag you down,” says Adonai.
17 Edom will become an object of horror;
everyone passing by will whistle
in astonishment at all its disasters.
18 It will be like the overthrow of S’dom (Sodom).
‘Amora (Gomorrah) and their neighboring towns,” says Adonai.
“No one will settle there any more,
no human being will live there again.
19 It will be like a lion coming up from the thickets
of the Yarden against a strong settlement:
in an instant I will chase him away
and appoint over it whomever I choose.
For who is like me? Who can call me to account?
What shepherd can stand up to me?”
20 So hear the plan of Adonai that he has devised against Edom,
and his purpose that he will accomplish
against those who live in Teman:
the least of the flock will drag them away;
their own pasture will be in shock at them.
21 The earth quakes at the sound of their fall;
their cry can be heard at the Sea of Suf.
22 Like a vulture he will soar, swoop down
and spread out his wings against Botzrah.
On that day the hearts of Edom’s warriors
will be like the heart of a woman in labor.
CJB
 

guysmith

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I see you use the CJB. What do you use as a reference book?

Also, do you see the rescue which you conveyed to me as the message in "this gospel of kingdom" (Matthew 24:14)?
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, guysmith.

I use no “reference book.” Furthermore, I am not enamored by the Complete Jewish Bible; I find that it has flaws the same as any English version of the Bible. However, it does read easily and clearly with its emphasis along the correct lines of reasoning, that is, from a Jewish perspective.

I suppose one might say that my "study reference of the Bible" is the Masoretic Hebrew text (as portrayed in both the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh and the Hebrew text of Biblesoft’s PC Study Bible) supplemented by the B’rit Chadashah (the New Covenant/Testament) as written in the Koine Greek texts used by the United Bible Society’s Greek New Testament. I use various Hebrew and Greek dictionaries as well as grammars of these languages. What guides my study is the consistency and thoroughness of definitions to which the Ruach haQodesh has led me that all began when I accepted the fact that the Bible was written to children of Israel by children of Israel about children of Israel. That Goyim (Gentiles) were included at all is an appendix to the Bible.

So, yes, I definitely see the “rescue” as the message of “this gospel of the Kingdom” or “this good news about the Kingdom of God."
 

guysmith

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Retrobyter said:
What guides my study is the consistency and thoroughness of definitions to which the Ruach haQodesh has led me that all began when I accepted the fact that the Bible was written to children of Israel by children of Israel about children of Israel. That Goyim (Gentiles) were included at all is an appendix to the Bible.

So, yes, I definitely see the “rescue” as the message of “this gospel of the Kingdom” or “this good news about the Kingdom of God."
Agreed.

Do you think that Gentiles are excluded from the rescue at the end of the age?

Are you planning to go when the time comes?
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro, Your words, "when I accepted the fact that the Bible was written to children of Israel by children of Israel about children of Israel. That Goyim (Gentiles) were included at all is an appendix to the Bible."

Wow, I can't believe you said that! When you take into consideration, that everyone until the sons of Abraham were Gentiles and that from the very beginning, the promise to Abraham stated that "all the nations will be blessed because of his righteousness" so Gentiles were included in God's plan from the very beginning! If anything, I would say the OT is a cautionary tale about NOT being like Israel. The NT is for those of the new creation where being either Gentile or Israel has no standing at all. Gentiles are certainly not a "plan B appendix"!! I really think you're smarter than that.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, guysmith.

guysmith said:
Agreed.

Do you think that Gentiles are excluded from the rescue at the end of the age?

Are you planning to go when the time comes?
Heavens, no! Now that the Goyim are included, believing Goyim have become ONE with the children of Israel IN THE MESSIAH! (Outside of the Messiah, there is still a difference between the Goyim and the children of Israel.)

Go? Go where? Do you mean “to heaven?” If so, no. I don’t believe that ANYONE “goes to heaven.” If you mean “to Israel,” then sure. When Yeshua` returns and resurrects/transforms His people, those of us who were once considered “Goyim” will be resurrected and transformed just as His own people will be.

Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Your words, "when I accepted the fact that the Bible was written to children of Israel by children of Israel about children of Israel. That Goyim (Gentiles) were included at all is an appendix to the Bible."

Wow, I can't believe you said that! When you take into consideration, that everyone until the sons of Abraham were Gentiles and that from the very beginning, the promise to Abraham stated that "all the nations will be blessed because of his righteousness" so Gentiles were included in God's plan from the very beginning! If anything, I would say the OT is a cautionary tale about NOT being like Israel. The NT is for those of the new creation where being either Gentile or Israel has no standing at all. Gentiles are certainly not a "plan B appendix"!! I really think you're smarter than that.
Why? How are “all the nations” blessed if not through the Messiah?! However, the Messiah is an ISRAELI concept! The ONLY thing that distinguishes those Goyim called “Christians” and children of Israel called “Messianic Jews” from the children of Israel who are NOT called “Messianic Jews” regarding the Messiah is that “Christians,” or rather, “believers,” is that believers know that YESHUA` from Natsaret is that one and only Messiah!

Now, I didn’t say that it was a “plan B” ANYTHING! Here’s a little analogy:

When I was first learning about computers, the term “peripheral” was tossed out by one of my teachers. It is anything that is attached to a computer that is “peripheral” to the actual computer’s computations. Guess what those “peripherals” included. Oh, little unnecessary things like a keyboard, a mouse, a screen, a printer, speakers, etc. The computer computations works with or without communication with the “outside world” of us human beings, even if the purpose for the computer computations is to work for human beings!

God has PERFECTLY PLANNED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD that Goyim would be an appendix to the promises to Israel! And, THAT is NOT a bad way to be included!
 

guysmith

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Retrobyter said:
Go? Go where? Do you mean “to heaven?” If so, no. I don’t believe that ANYONE “goes to heaven.” If you mean “to Israel,” then sure. When Yeshua` returns and resurrects/transforms His people, those of us who were once considered “Goyim” will be resurrected and transformed just as His own people will be.
At the resurrection, there will be two groups of believers 1) the dead in Christ 2) those believers that never tasted death.

I see "This gospel of the kingdom" as "rescue" instructions for those believers that will be alive at the time of Christ return. These "end time believers" are recognized as "the remnant of Israel" or "the remnant that Adonai calls" (Joel 2:32) Another example of these "remnant" is "the woman and the man-child" which are protected for the 1260 days of the GT (Revelation 12). This protection is location specific to Israel.

Also, the time graphs are part of the "rescue" instructions for those that "watch."
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, guysmith.

guysmith said:
At the resurrection, there will be two groups of believers 1) the dead in Christ 2) those believers that never tasted death.

I see "This gospel of the kingdom" as "rescue" instructions for those believers that will be alive at the time of Christ return. These "end time believers" are recognized as "the remnant of Israel" or "the remnant that Adonai calls" (Joel 2:32) Another example of these "remnant" is "the woman and the man-child" which are protected for the 1260 days of the GT (Revelation 12). This protection is location specific to Israel.

Also, the time graphs are part of the "rescue" instructions for those that "watch."
I can agree with this IF you first define who “the dead in Christ” are and second, what it means to be an “end time believer.” And, this is ESPECIALLY true in light of the fact that you believe they are “the remnant of Israel” or “the remnant that Adonai calls!” You may want to define those terms as well. To whom was Yo’el writing in “Joel 2:32?” (Also, I think you are just WAY off the mark to believe “the woman and the man-child” are the “remnant.”)
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro, Two things. Your words: "However, the Messiah is an ISRAELI concept!"

I would say that it is God's concept, revealed to Israel but always meant to include Gentiles.

Your words: "...Goyim would be an appendix to the promises to Israel."

The main promise was to Abraham and not Israel in general and it was to those who were righteous through faith regardless of their bloodline. The promise of the law had "conditions" that for the most part Israel failed to live up to and many of those promises only found fulfillment in the church.

I don't think "appendix" is the right word. Appendix implies supplementary, a note added to the end. I consider it more like a three act play. The OT was Act 1, The NT, was Act 2 and the end times as Act 3. Both Acts 1 &2 are vital to the story line as written from the beginning. I'm sorry, but it's not all about Israel, It never was.
 

guysmith

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[SIZE=13pt]An example of “the dead in Christ” are the disciples that will be in the first resurrection. And Matthew 24 (this gospel of the kingdom) is survival instructions which did not apply to the disciples (or any of “the dead in Christ”) and meant exclusively for those believers that will be alive to see the second coming of Christ. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13pt]End time believers can be divided into two groups. 1) Believers that are alive during the end time but die or are martyred before the second coming 2) Believers that are found worthy to escape the apocalypse survive to see Christ at His second coming (Luke 21:36)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13pt]An example of believers that are found worthy to escape the apocalypse are those which Christ protects on Mount Zion as described in Zechariah 14:1-5. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13pt]I have made 11 short videos which can answer many questions. They can be found on the video link on my website.[/SIZE]
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Two things. Your words: "However, the Messiah is an ISRAELI concept!"

I would say that it is God's concept, revealed to Israel but always meant to include Gentiles.

Your words: "...Goyim would be an appendix to the promises to Israel."

The main promise was to Abraham and not Israel in general and it was to those who were righteous through faith regardless of their bloodline. The promise of the law had "conditions" that for the most part Israel failed to live up to and many of those promises only found fulfillment in the church.

I don't think "appendix" is the right word. Appendix implies supplementary, a note added to the end. I consider it more like a three act play. The OT was Act 1, The NT, was Act 2 and the end times as Act 3. Both Acts 1 &2 are vital to the story line as written from the beginning. I'm sorry, but it's not all about Israel, It never was.
... And THAT is why you will never fully understand the Scriptures! It IS all about Israel and to deny that fact is to deny God’s Messiah! Sure it is God’s concept, but Israel was, is, and always will be God’s people! God does NOT renege on His promises!
Romans 3:1-2
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (Greek: ta logia [based on logos] = "the utterances/words") of God.
KJV

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (both children of Israel!), with Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
NIV

Romans 11:25-30
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.
"


28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
NIV


They are the “people of the Book!” They are MISHPACHAH - FAMILY! A Believer in Yeshua` must EMBRACE his own Israeli ("Jewish”) heritage! Believers ARE children of Israel, too, through being born again into Yeshua`s family!

For instance, His name is NOT “Jesus!” His name was, is, and always will be “Yeeshuwa`" or shortened for English "Yeshua`!" The name means “He will rescue” or “He will save” in Hebrew and Aramaic. That name was transliterated into Greek as “Ieesous” and from there transliterated into English (through other languages, as well) as “Jesus,” originally pronounced “Yay-SOOS,” the same as the pronunciation of the Greek! That we mar the name’s pronunciation today is NOT the fault of the translators. That’s all on the way that modern English is pronounced when one doesn’t know how to transliterate the Hebrew directly into the English. We HAVE an “sh” sound; Greek didn’t! We HAVE a “y” sound; Greek didn’t; all they could do was approximate it with an iota. We, like the Greeks, don’t have an “`ayin” in our alphabet; all we can do is mark it with a back apostrophe ( ` ) or give it a sound that sort of approximates it, like the “g” in “Gaza.” However, the Greeks added the sigma (or stigma) at the end of the name, which was their way of marking personal nouns. We don’t need to do that, but we copied the Greeks anyway and added an “s” at the end of His name. So, HOW did we get to the point of pronouncing His name as “DZHEE-zus” I’d like to know?! And, that’s just the FIRST of many, MANY mistakes that modern “Christians” have made!

No one promise of God is more important than another! And, God keeps ALL of His promises for He does NOT make them lightly or needlessly, nor does He make them without purpose! Only a fool would think that God would break one promise in favor of another!

Oh, and by the way, “Torah” does NOT mean the “Law!” It’s proper translation is “INSTRUCTION!"

And, finally, there’s nothing special about the “church” itself. It is the PEOPLE - the BELIEVERS in the Messiah - WITHIN the “church” who are special - holy - to God! The word translated “church” is the Greek word “ekkleesia” meaning a “called out” assembly. The word “church” comes from the Greek word “kuriokon” meaning “of the Lord!” Thus, the FULL name of the gathering IN EACH TOWN OR CITY is “ekkleesia kuriokon” or the “called out” assembly “of the Lord!” There were many assemblies that were "called out.” This is the specific name of the Lord’s "called out” assembly, but it was a LOCAL, VISIBLE assembly, not some universal, invisible organization! However, when the Scriptures say that “Christ died for the church,” He wasn’t dying for an organization! He was dying for INDIVIDUALS! That’s VERY important to remember!
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro, We’ve been down this path before and we both believe we are correct in our understanding of scripture, but you nailed it at the end of your post.

Your words: “And, finally, there’s nothing special about the “church” itself. It is the PEOPLE - the BELIEVERS in the Messiah - WITHIN the “church” who are special - holy - to God! The word translated “church” is the Greek word “ekkleesia” meaning a “called out” assembly. The word “church” comes from the Greek word “kuriokon” meaning “of the Lord!” Thus, the FULL name of the gathering IN EACH TOWN OR CITY is “ekkleesia kuriokon” or the “called out” assembly “of the Lord!” There were many assemblies that were "called out.” This is the specific name of the Lord’s "called out” assembly, but it was a LOCAL, VISIBLE assembly, not some universal, invisible organization! However, when the Scriptures say that “Christ died for the church,” He wasn’t dying for an organization! He was dying for INDIVIDUALS! That’s VERY important to remember!”

I agree with your statement about the church, and that is the exact thing you need to remember about Israel! It never was the tribes or the nation. Only the righteous individuals within them had any standing with God! When you come to understand this, we will finally be in agreement. Change the word “church” in your statement and replace it with “Israel” and the truth will be revealed! It can be read both ways and still be a truthful statement.

Your words: “... And THAT is why you will never fully understand the Scriptures! It IS all about Israel and to deny that fact is to deny God’s Messiah! Sure it is God’s concept, but Israel was, is, and always will be God’s people! God does NOT renege on His promises!”

The highlighted part is just NOT true! It has always been the righteous that are God’s people! The righteous, be they Jew or Gentile become part of God’s family. The unrighteous part of the nation of Israel was just basically a tool designed to fulfill God’s purposes. It could just have easily been Oriental or Nubian but it was Abraham who was found righteous because of his faith. The future nation of Israel had/has nothing to do with it, it’s always been about the righteous remnant!

Romans 3:1-2 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (Greek: ta logia [based on logos] = "the utterances/words") of God. KJV

This verse tells me they won’t have much of an excuse come judgment day The prior verse Rom. 2:29 puts this in the proper perspective.
Rom. 2:29 – “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

It’s all about the spirit now. Things have changed! National Israel means nothing and the natural world of the Gentiles means nothing. We, as believers, are a “new creation”, we leave the old behind and God builds our unified spirits into something new.

Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. ( regarding vs. 12, it is only the righteous that had a true citizenship in Israel and were of the promise) 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away (Gentiles) and peace to those who were near (Jews). 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, (which are the righteous, not Israel in general) 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (both children of Israel!), with Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. NIV

This is an excellent passage and you highlighted vss. 12, 13, 19-21 what you thought were important and I’ve highlighted the parts of the passage that I think is important. The Jews need to put Israel behind them as Gentiles put the world behind. Gal. 6:16 uses the term, “the Israel of God.” The “Israel of God” is a NEW creation. It’s not the nation of Israel that is important it’s what the “word” Israel means, which according to Gen. 32:28 means “a prince of God” as in royalty.

1 Pet. 2:9 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;”

That is what makes us a part of the NEW Israel. Mark 2:21-22 – “No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse. 22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

What do you think this verse is saying? Believers in Christ are the “new cloth” and the “new wine”. The “old cloth” and the “old bottles” are Israel and the law and the ‘world” of the Gentiles! We SHOULD NOT try to put our new creation back into its OLD identity, be it Israel or the world.

Romans 11:28-29 – “28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.” NIV

Yes and when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, God will keep His promises (144,000) but that has nothing to do with the here and now. Nobody is saying that God doesn’t love Israel. They are part of the world and “God so loved the world…” but God doesn’t play favorites no matter how much you want to believe that for “God is no respecter of persons” and that includes Israelites!

Your words: “They are the “people of the Book!” They are MISHPACHAH - FAMILY! A Believer in Yeshua` must EMBRACE his own Israeli ("Jewish”) heritage! Believers ARE children of Israel, too, through being born again into Yeshua`s family!”

You’re kind of missing the point here. God’s family is only made up of the righteous! The non-righteous part of Israel that isn’t part of the righteous remnant are kind of like “the red-headed step-child”, yes, they’re kind of part of the family but they have no real standing. Let’s see what Christ had to say about family:

Matt. 12:50 – “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Mark 13:12 – “Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.”

Luke 12:51-53 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”

Matt. 10:36-37 – “And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[SIZE=12pt]So, no, it’s not really about family. The questions are: Do you love God and His new creation, more than your old concept of what Israel was? Are you willing to put your “old world” behind you and be part of His NJ? For the old Israel has no place in the NJ. The only requirement for citizenship in the NJ is a belief in Christ and righteousness by faith. One’s bloodlines don’t matter at all![/SIZE]
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, We’ve been down this path before and we both believe we are correct in our understanding of scripture, but you nailed it at the end of your post.

Your words: “And, finally, there’s nothing special about the “church” itself. It is the PEOPLE - the BELIEVERS in the Messiah - WITHIN the “church” who are special - holy - to God! The word translated “church” is the Greek word “ekkleesia” meaning a “called out” assembly. The word “church” comes from the Greek word “kuriokon” meaning “of the Lord!” Thus, the FULL name of the gathering IN EACH TOWN OR CITY is “ekkleesia kuriokon” or the “called out” assembly “of the Lord!” There were many assemblies that were "called out.” This is the specific name of the Lord’s "called out” assembly, but it was a LOCAL, VISIBLE assembly, not some universal, invisible organization! However, when the Scriptures say that “Christ died for the church,” He wasn’t dying for an organization! He was dying for INDIVIDUALS! That’s VERY important to remember!”

I agree with your statement about the church, and that is the exact thing you need to remember about Israel! It never was the tribes or the nation. Only the righteous individuals within them had any standing with God! When you come to understand this, we will finally be in agreement. Change the word “church” in your statement and replace it with “Israel” and the truth will be revealed! It can be read both ways and still be a truthful statement.

Your words: “... And THAT is why you will never fully understand the Scriptures! It IS all about Israel and to deny that fact is to deny God’s Messiah! Sure it is God’s concept, but Israel was, is, and always will be God’s people! God does NOT renege on His promises!”

The highlighted part is just NOT true! It has always been the righteous that are God’s people! The righteous, be they Jew or Gentile become part of God’s family. The unrighteous part of the nation of Israel was just basically a tool designed to fulfill God’s purposes. It could just have easily been Oriental or Nubian but it was Abraham who was found righteous because of his faith. The future nation of Israel had/has nothing to do with it, it’s always been about the righteous remnant!

Romans 3:1-2 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (Greek: ta logia [based on logos] = "the utterances/words") of God. KJV

This verse tells me they won’t have much of an excuse come judgment day The prior verse Rom. 2:29 puts this in the proper perspective.
Rom. 2:29 – “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

It’s all about the spirit now. Things have changed! National Israel means nothing and the natural world of the Gentiles means nothing. We, as believers, are a “new creation”, we leave the old behind and God builds our unified spirits into something new.

Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. ( regarding vs. 12, it is only the righteous that had a true citizenship in Israel and were of the promise) 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away (Gentiles) and peace to those who were near (Jews). 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, (which are the righteous, not Israel in general) 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (both children of Israel!), with Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`) himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. NIV

This is an excellent passage and you highlighted vss. 12, 13, 19-21 what you thought were important and I’ve highlighted the parts of the passage that I think is important. The Jews need to put Israel behind them as Gentiles put the world behind. Gal. 6:16 uses the term, “the Israel of God.” The “Israel of God” is a NEW creation. It’s not the nation of Israel that is important it’s what the “word” Israel means, which according to Gen. 32:28 means “a prince of God” as in royalty.

1 Pet. 2:9 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;”

That is what makes us a part of the NEW Israel. Mark 2:21-22 – “No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse. 22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

What do you think this verse is saying? Believers in Christ are the “new cloth” and the “new wine”. The “old cloth” and the “old bottles” are Israel and the law and the ‘world” of the Gentiles! We SHOULD NOT try to put our new creation back into its OLD identity, be it Israel or the world.

Romans 11:28-29 – “28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.” NIV

Yes and when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, God will keep His promises (144,000) but that has nothing to do with the here and now. Nobody is saying that God doesn’t love Israel. They are part of the world and “God so loved the world…” but God doesn’t play favorites no matter how much you want to believe that for “God is no respecter of persons” and that includes Israelites!

Your words: “They are the “people of the Book!” They are MISHPACHAH - FAMILY! A Believer in Yeshua` must EMBRACE his own Israeli ("Jewish”) heritage! Believers ARE children of Israel, too, through being born again into Yeshua`s family!”

You’re kind of missing the point here. God’s family is only made up of the righteous! The non-righteous part of Israel that isn’t part of the righteous remnant are kind of like “the red-headed step-child”, yes, they’re kind of part of the family but they have no real standing. Let’s see what Christ had to say about family:

Matt. 12:50 – “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Mark 13:12 – “Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.”

Luke 12:51-53 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”

Matt. 10:36-37 – “And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[SIZE=12pt]So, no, it’s not really about family. The questions are: Do you love God and His new creation, more than your old concept of what Israel was? Are you willing to put your “old world” behind you and be part of His NJ? For the old Israel has no place in the NJ. The only requirement for citizenship in the NJ is a belief in Christ and righteousness by faith. One’s bloodlines don’t matter at all![/SIZE]
LOL!!!! Are you SERIOUS?!!! HA! HA! HA! So, Israel has no place in the New Jerusalem?!?!?! HUH?! Is that why each of the twelve gates is inscribed with the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?! Where’s the gate for the “righteous?!” Where’s the gate for the “Gentile?!” Which gate are YOU going through?! To which tribe do YOU belong?!

Pardon me while I settle down and wipe the tears from my eyes. That was TOO funny! You obviously don’t understand “righteousness.” Allow me to remind you of a few verses that I’m sure you “know,” but based on what you said above, you DON’T know!
Isaiah 64:6-7
6 But we are ALL as an unclean thing, and ALL our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we ALL do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is NONE that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
KJV


Romans 4:5-8
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
KJV


Psalm 32:1-2
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
KJV

Romans 3:10-26
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside of) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
KJV


It has NEVER BEEN ANY OTHER WAY, neither in Israel nor outside of Israel!!! Quit setting up a “straw man hypothesis!” NO ONE is justified by the “Law!" By the Torah! They NEVER have been so justified! It has ALWAYS been by faith! It doesn’t matter if we are talking about 2014 A.D. or 2014 B.C!

Have you forgotten the words of our Master?

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
KJV

That is NOT something new with “Christianity!” To whom was He talking? Have you forgotten so soon, or are you justifying your own belief system by ignoring the fact?

Also, have you forgotten the following?

Luke 18:18-19
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
KJV

Paul knew this, too!

Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
KJV


Read Romans 11 (in fact, chapters 9 through 11) again and again until it finally sinks in! Read Ephesians 2 again and again until it finally sinks in!
Romans 11:11-29
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ (the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without (outside of) God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah).
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (the children of Israel).
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens WITH the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV


Who was grafted in among whom?! Who was adopted into whom?! Don’t you DARE to call yourself among the “righteous!” It’s not YOUR right to declare the “church” to be the “righteous,” just as it is NOT YOUR right to declare Israel “unrighteous!”

Now, have you forgotten the “dropping of the other shoe?"

Romans 11:28-32
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV


We are to be as Paul was, namely to be willing to be accursed from the Messiah for his “brethren’s” sake! That is, for the sake of the children of Israel!
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro, Well, I must say that you seem to be over-reacting a bit. I think we talked back and forth enough so you should know that anytime I mention the righteous, it is the righteousness of Christ that is implied not our own righteousness.

Your words: "So, Israel has no place in the New Jerusalem?!?!?! HUH?! Is that why each of the twelve gates is inscribed with the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?! Where’s the gate for the “righteous?!” Where’s the gate for the “Gentile?!” Which gate are YOU going through?! To which tribe do YOU belong?"

I believe I said "old" Israel and there is a tremendous amount of difference between the two. To answer your last three questions: Judah of course! As joint-heirs with Christ. In fact, everyone from His death and resurrection will enter that gate even if they are born again Jews of a different tribe.

Your words: "It has NEVER BEEN ANY OTHER WAY, neither in Israel nor outside of Israel!!! Quit setting up a “straw man hypothesis!” NO ONE is justified by the “Law!" By the Torah! They NEVER have been so justified! It has ALWAYS been by faith! It doesn’t matter if we are talking about 2014 A.D. or 2014 B.C"

I never said anything different.

Your words: "Who was grafted in among whom?! Who was adopted into whom?! "

I'll say it again, Israel is not the Olive Tree! The "tree" is the "way to God", "the path of righteousness by faith" however you want to put it.

Gal. 4:5-7 - "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

See, even being of national Israel isn't sufficient. Both the Jew and the Gentile are adopted into the new creation of Christ, the 'spiritual" Israel. We are where we are by God's design. Eph. 1:4-5 - "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Your words: "Don’t you DARE to call yourself among the “righteous!” It’s not YOUR right to declare the “church” to be the “righteous,” just as it is NOT YOUR right to declare Israel “unrighteous!"

Of course it's my right. All christians who are members of His Church/Body are covered by Christ's righteousness. Everyone knows that "our" righteousness is as filthy rags before God, but when God looks at us He sees the righteousness of His Son as our covering.

2 Co. 5:21 - "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

It is because of our faith that we attain His righteousness. It began with Abel and continues with us (Heb. 11)

1John 3:7,10 - "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous...10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

So the paradigm is set in scripture and we have the "right" to recognize the truths as presented in His word. For NT believers, if we have faith in Christ, we have been declared righteous! For those of the OT, if they had and exercised their faith in God, they too were declared righteous. All those of both eras, who do not have faith are unrighteous. It's not me that is saying that, it's God's word! Why would you think we don't have the right to declare God's word?

BTW, The scripture you gave: Rom. 3:10-18 is a description of Israel mainly by David as found in various Psalms and a couple of passages from Isaiah and of course it applies to the Gentiles as well.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.

Trekson said:
Hi Retro, Well, I must say that you seem to be over-reacting a bit. I think we talked back and forth enough so you should know that anytime I mention the righteous, it is the righteousness of Christ that is implied not our own righteousness.

Your words: "So, Israel has no place in the New Jerusalem?!?!?! HUH?! Is that why each of the twelve gates is inscribed with the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?! Where’s the gate for the “righteous?!” Where’s the gate for the “Gentile?!” Which gate are YOU going through?! To which tribe do YOU belong?"

I believe I said "old" Israel and there is a tremendous amount of difference between the two. To answer your last three questions: Judah of course! As joint-heirs with Christ. In fact, everyone from His death and resurrection will enter that gate even if they are born again Jews of a different tribe.

Your words: "It has NEVER BEEN ANY OTHER WAY, neither in Israel nor outside of Israel!!! Quit setting up a “straw man hypothesis!” NO ONE is justified by the “Law!" By the Torah! They NEVER have been so justified! It has ALWAYS been by faith! It doesn’t matter if we are talking about 2014 A.D. or 2014 B.C"

I never said anything different.

Your words: "Who was grafted in among whom?! Who was adopted into whom?! "

I'll say it again, Israel is not the Olive Tree! The "tree" is the "way to God", "the path of righteousness by faith" however you want to put it.

Gal. 4:5-7 - "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

See, even being of national Israel isn't sufficient. Both the Jew and the Gentile are adopted into the new creation of Christ, the 'spiritual" Israel. We are where we are by God's design. Eph. 1:4-5 - "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Your words: "Don’t you DARE to call yourself among the “righteous!” It’s not YOUR right to declare the “church” to be the “righteous,” just as it is NOT YOUR right to declare Israel “unrighteous!"

Of course it's my right. All christians who are members of His Church/Body are covered by Christ's righteousness. Everyone knows that "our" righteousness is as filthy rags before God, but when God looks at us He sees the righteousness of His Son as our covering.

2 Co. 5:21 - "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

It is because of our faith that we attain His righteousness. It began with Abel and continues with us (Heb. 11)

1John 3:7,10 - "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous...10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

So the paradigm is set in scripture and we have the "right" to recognize the truths as presented in His word. For NT believers, if we have faith in Christ, we have been declared righteous! For those of the OT, if they had and exercised their faith in God, they too were declared righteous. All those of both eras, who do not have faith are unrighteous. It's not me that is saying that, it's God's word! Why would you think we don't have the right to declare God's word?

BTW, The scripture you gave: Rom. 3:10-18 is a description of Israel mainly by David as found in various Psalms and a couple of passages from Isaiah and of course it applies to the Gentiles as well.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Okay. You’re almost there! These are good answers ... as far as they go, but you now need to take the last step:

You said, “I'll say it again, Israel is not the Olive Tree! The ‘tree' is the 'way to God,' 'the path of righteousness by faith' however you want to put it.” Oh, really? Then, why did Paul say,

Romans 11:24
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
KJV


THEIR OWN 'olive tree'” is the “way to God” by “the path of righteousness by faith?” Can’t you see that this is what you are inadvertantly arguing? Can you not see that there is a difference placed here between the unbelieving Jew and the unbelieving Gentile? Sure they need grafting into the Tree, but can’t you see that they have the SAME “DNA” - LITERALLY, as does the Olive Tree?

It is NOT a dichotomous view that the Scriptures paint! It’s not "all believing people vs. all unbelieving people" any more than it’s "Jew vs. Gentile!" There is a THREE-WAY division that is seen here! You have the believers - both Jew and Gentile - under the heading of "the Way.” But, OUTSIDE of the Messiah - OUTSIDE of “Christ," if you prefer - there is STILL a division between Jew and Gentile! Gentiles are adopted into the family, but Jews (or rather, ANY children of Israel) need not to be “adopted"; they are simply the returning "prodigal children!"

This is SO VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND because it goes against the grain of what “Christians” are usually taught:

Consider carefully the wording of the following verses:

Romans 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
KJV


That “all Israel” is not “spiritual Israel” or the “new creation” or whatever else you want to call that "replacement theology" nonsense! It’s Israel in contrast to the Gentiles (see verse 25)! The covenant with them IS “When God shall take away their sins!” They are not having their sins taken away when they keep His covenant; their covenant IS the taking away of their sins! It’s a UNIQUE covenant, and it is provided SOLELY for the children of Israel FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR FATHERS - THEIR ANCESTORS - THE PATRIARCHS, namely Avraham, Yitschaq, Ya`aqov, Y’hudah and his brothers, etc! They are NOT limited to a mere 144,000! Those are just the ones who will be the HERALDS of the coming King, the Messiah Yeshua`! That’s why the verses following this statement are ...

Romans 11:28-29
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV


In other words, God does not renege on His gifts or His calling! Although in their temporary blindness they may be enemies, they are STILL beloved of God for their fathers’ sakes! God doesn’t take back His promises to them! Their numbers may be increased by the influx of the Gentiles, but they are STILL GOD’S PEOPLE - with the same rights and privileges as any “Christian” has today! We are ONE NEW MAN in the Messiah!

Can you look at a rough, burly “Hell’s Angels” biker and see the potential in him to be a born-again child of God? I hope so! Then, look at the rough, uncouth, blasphemous Jew, angry and hurt by countless years of anti-Semitism and hatred and betrayal and persecution by their neighboring countries and those who called them “Christ-killers,” and recognize them as children of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov - damaged, but loved and valued by God! As loved as God loved the shepherd boy David!

​I’ll even take it a step farther: The prophecies say that they will be given the chance to see the truth and to accept their Messiah AFTER they have been resurrected! This fact is NOT true for the Gentiles! They are a UNIQUE people in that respect!

Remember: The Resurrection of our bodies is NOT unique to the “NT believers,” as one might say.

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV​
 

Trekson

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Hi Retro,

My words, “I'll say it again, Israel is not the Olive Tree! The ‘tree' is the 'way to God,' 'the path of righteousness by faith' however you want to put it.”

Your words, “Oh, really? Then, why did Paul say, Romans 11:24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” KJV

THEIR OWN 'olive tree'” is the “way to God” by “the path of righteousness by faith?” Can’t you see that this is what you are inadvertantly arguing? Can you not see that there is a difference placed here between the unbelieving Jew and the unbelieving Gentile? Sure they need grafting into the Tree, but can’t you see that they have the SAME “DNA” - LITERALLY, as does the Olive Tree?”

No, I don’t see that at all. It has nothing to do with DNA and everything to do with the verse you shared about Jews being given the oracles of God. They have no excuse, the “way” to God has been given to them for generations and began with them. That and that alone is what makes them the “natural” branches.

Your words: “It is NOT a dichotomous view that the Scriptures paint! It’s not "all believing people vs. all unbelieving people" any more than it’s "Jew vs. Gentile!" There is a THREE-WAY division that is seen here! You have the believers - both Jew and Gentile - under the heading of "the Way.” But, OUTSIDE of the Messiah - OUTSIDE of “Christ," if you prefer - there is STILL a division between Jew and Gentile! Gentiles are adopted into the family, but Jews (or rather, ANY children of Israel) need not to be “adopted"; they are simply the returning "prodigal children!"

To me that means that once, having accepted Christ as Messiah, it should be “easier” for them to learn the ways of Christianity because, if they are “practicing” Jews, they’re half-way there already. I don’t know if the transition would be as easy if they are non-practicing Jews, then again, it might be easier for non-practicing Jews because they’re not burdened down by the law. I don’t think the example of the “prodigal child” is a proper one because one would have to have a relationship with the Father to begin with. Outside of Christ, that relationship was never there because it’s on an individual basis, not a national one.

Your verses: Romans 11:25-2725 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” KJV

Your words: “That “all Israel” is not “spiritual Israel” or the “new creation” or whatever else you want to call that "replacement theology" nonsense! It’s Israel in contrast to the Gentiles (see verse 25)! The covenant with them IS “When God shall take away their sins!” They are not having their sins taken away when they keep His covenant; their covenant IS the taking away of their sins! It’s a UNIQUE covenant, and it is provided SOLELY for the children of Israel FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR FATHERS - THEIR ANCESTORS - THE PATRIARCHS, namely Avraham, Yitschaq, Ya`aqov, Y’hudah and his brothers, etc!”

First, I do not hold onto any type of “replacement theology” whatsoever. Secondly, it is in this area, my friend, where you are blind because of your staunch refusal to believe that much of Israel is condemned. The above verse you shared is a cause and effect verse. God certainly DOES NOT give them a blanket pardon just because they’re of Jewish ancestry. That’s kind of silly to believe and not a fair representation of God’s character as a God of true justice. I’m sorry, but as much as you desire to believe it, GOD DOES NOT PLAY FAVORITES!! Ok, here’s the cause of the above verse: “the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob”

How will Christ turn away ungodliness? The same way He always has and it will be the fulfillment of Zech. 12:10. When will this happen? At some point in time, the fullness of Gentiles will arrive, probably at the moment of the erecting of the a of d. At that same time, the scales of blindness will fall off of national Israel and they will have a “decision” to make. Recognize Christ as Messiah or continue to follow the imposter known in Christian circles as the anti-Christ. I believe it is this that is described by Joel.

Joel 3:14 – “Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.”

So you are right when you say: “They are NOT limited to a mere 144,000!... That’s why the verses following this statement are...” But wrong in how you apply the following vss.

Romans 11:28-29 “28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV

Your words: “In other words, God does not renege on His gifts or His calling! Although in their temporary blindness they may be enemies, they are STILL beloved of God for their fathers’ sakes! God doesn’t take back His promises to them! Their numbers may be increased by the influx of the Gentiles, but they are STILL GOD’S PEOPLE - with the same rights and privileges as any “Christian” has today! We are ONE NEW MAN in the Messiah!”

If you’re talking about unsaved members of Israel, then you are so far off the mark, you need to check your sanity levels. It most certainly is not a blanket acceptance of all Israel with no repentance required! This “decision” is Israel’s last chance, and the opportunity is only because of God’s promise. I’ll say that again, His promise is the only reason they are given a second chance to begin with! It has nothing to do with family except maybe that is the reason they are given a second chance at all. But the only way any of them will enter into the millennium or have a chance at eternal life is if they decide “rightly” and accept Jesus the Christ as their Savior. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!

Your words: “I’ll even take it a step farther: The prophecies say that they will be given the chance to see the truth and to accept their Messiah AFTER they have been resurrected! This fact is NOT true for the Gentiles! They are a UNIQUE people in that respect!

I’m sure you’re reading into the prophecies something that is NOT being said and please don’t tell me it’s about the families of Nathan, etc. again. Those are LIVING descendants, NOT the resurrected dead!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Trekson.


My words: '“THEIR OWN 'olive tree’" is the "way to God” by “the path of righteousness by faith?” Can’t you see that this is what you are inadvertently arguing? Can you not see that there is a difference placed here between the unbelieving Jew and the unbelieving Gentile? Sure they need grafting into the Tree, but can’t you see that they have the SAME “DNA” - LITERALLY, as does the Olive Tree?”'

Your words: ‘No, I don’t see that at all. It has nothing to do with DNA and everything to do with the verse you shared about Jews being given the oracles of God. They have no excuse, the “way” to God has been given to them for generations and began with them. That and that alone is what makes them the “natural” branches.'

Nonsense. That wasn’t Paul’s point in Romans 3:1-2. He was pointing out that the Jews DO have an advantage being the “People of the Book!” What makes them the “natural branches” is that they were and are the “natural” offspring of Avraham, through Yitschaq, through Ya`acov renamed “Yisra’el,” and then through the head of whatever tribe to which they belong! To say otherwise is to have a WEIRD definition of “natural” (Greek: "kata fusin” = "down/according-to growth/natural-production/genus”).
NT:5449 fusis (foo'-sis); from NT:5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage:
KJV - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Your words: 'To me that means that once, having accepted Christ as Messiah, it should be “easier” for them to learn the ways of Christianity because, if they are “practicing” Jews, they’re half-way there already. I don’t know if the transition would be as easy if they are non-practicing Jews, then again, it might be easier for non-practicing Jews because they’re not burdened down by the law. I don’t think the example of the “prodigal child” is a proper one because one would have to have a relationship with the Father to begin with. Outside of Christ, that relationship was never there because it’s on an individual basis, not a national one.'

First of all, it IS a national relationship that the children of Isra’el have had with God. From the very beginning, it was GOD who chose Avram while he was still the son of an idol worshipper in Charan in today’s Syria. Avram did NOTHING to earn God’s favor. God promised Avram a son and even when he had a son outside of the promise and became Avraham, God still insisted that his heir would be the son of His promise. They were to become a great nation and that through them the nations of the earth would be blessed. When God rescued them out of Egypt and Mosheh led them through the wilderness to Mount Sinai, they were blessed as a nation, and as a nation they saw the Shikinah (Presence) of God and heard His voice thunder. As a nation they were given the Instructions, beginning with the first Ten Commandments of the 613 Commandments. It wasn’t an individual experience; it was a FAMILY AFFAIR! If you can’t understand that, then you will never understand what it means for Israel to be a nation. They are ALL RELATED! They are all FAMILY! MISHPACHAH!

Now, who do you think you are to say that they were “outside of the Christ” or “outside of the Messiah?"

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
KJV


You need to get a better handle on your own “Jewish roots,” the heritage you have through the children of Israel!

Your words: 'First, I do not hold onto any type of “replacement theology” whatsoever. Secondly, it is in this area, my friend, where you are blind because of your staunch refusal to believe that much of Israel is condemned. The above verse you shared is a cause and effect verse. God certainly DOES NOT give them a blanket pardon just because they’re of Jewish ancestry. That’s kind of silly to believe and not a fair representation of God’s character as a God of true justice. I’m sorry, but as much as you desire to believe it, GOD DOES NOT PLAY FAVORITES!! Ok, here’s the cause of the above verse: “the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob”

How will Christ turn away ungodliness? The same way He always has and it will be the fulfillment of Zech. 12:10. When will this happen? At some point in time, the fullness of Gentiles will arrive, probably at the moment of the erecting of the a of d. At that same time, the scales of blindness will fall off of national Israel and they will have a “decision” to make. Recognize Christ as Messiah or continue to follow the imposter known in Christian circles as the anti-Christ. I believe it is this that is described by Joel.'

Well, you may not want to think you’re holding onto a “replacement theology,” but if you are replacing the nation Israel with the “church" in ANY WAY, you are! BY DEFINITION!

“Condemned?!” Seriously?! Who says? You? What were the children of Israel taught?

Micah 6:7-8
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
KJV


Yeshua`s exact words (through translation, that is) were...
Matthew 12:38-42
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
KJV

Romans 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved (rescued): as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer (the Rescuer), and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV


The blindness is NOT permanent nor is it total! It will be lifted when the fulness of the Goyim has come in. ALL Israel shall be rescued! And, the Rescuer is the One who will turn ungodliness away from Ya`aqov, Isra’el’s previous name. God’s covenant with them shall be when He takes away their sins, and they are the loved ones of the Patriarchs! The gifts and calling of God are without God changing His mind about them!

I don’t know how to say it any better than with Scripture! Yeshua`s own attitude should be a guide to the truth for you:
John 8:10-11
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
KJV

Your words: ‘How will Christ turn away ungodliness? The same way He always has and it will be the fulfillment of Zech. 12:10. When will this happen? At some point in time, the fullness of Gentiles will arrive, probably at the moment of the erecting of the a of d. At that same time, the scales of blindness will fall off of national Israel and they will have a “decision” to make. Recognize Christ as Messiah or continue to follow the imposter known in Christian circles as the anti-Christ. I believe it is this that is described by Joel.'

Well, first of all, the “a of d” has already happened. That was erected by Antiochus IV Epiphanes on 25 Kislev 168 B.C. It will not be repeated or the prophecy of Daniel 11:31 is a false prophecy. That is NOT what Yeshua` was talking about in Matthew 24:15 or Mark 13:14. He was talking about Daniel 9:27, and THAT prophecy was fulfilled in 66 A.D. prior to 70 A.D. when the Temple was destroyed.

Second, Zechariah 12:10 is in multiple stages: First, the spirit of grace and supplication is poured out upon the household of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. THEN, when He comes, they will look upon Him and mourn for Him. See, as a Messianic Jew, I’m seeing the first part being fulfilled TODAY! They are already learning who the Messiah is, and they are learning that they do NOT have to become “Christians” to accept Him as their Messiah!
1 John 5:1
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus (Yeshua`) is the Christ (the Messiah) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
KJV


Third, get a grip! "Recognize Christ as Messiah?” The two terms are the SAME, just two different languages!

(Joel 3:14 is talking about a WAR TRIBUNAL, btw. It’s in the AFTERMATH of the battles leading up to the Messiah’s claim of Kingship over Israel.)

Your words: 'If you’re talking about unsaved members of Israel, then you are so far off the mark, you need to check your sanity levels. It most certainly is not a blanket acceptance of all Israel with no repentance required! This “decision” is Israel’s last chance, and the opportunity is only because of God’s promise. I’ll say that again, His promise is the only reason they are given a second chance to begin with! It has nothing to do with family except maybe that is the reason they are given a second chance at all. But the only way any of them will enter into the millennium or have a chance at eternal life is if they decide “rightly” and accept Jesus the Christ as their Savior. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!
...
I’m sure you’re reading into the prophecies something that is NOT being said and please don’t tell me it’s about the families of Nathan, etc. again. Those are LIVING descendants, NOT the resurrected dead!'

NO! You’re not paying attention to the Scriptures! You’re IGNORING them, and IGNORANCE of God’s Word is NO EXCUSE! First off, I’m not saying that there will be no repentance; on the other hand, that choice can be given AFTER the resurrection as easily for God as BEFORE their death!

The names “David, Natan, Levi, and Shim’i, are NOT the “living descendants!” Since each is the descendant of the one before, then all Z’kharyahu had to do was list David and all of His descendants would INCLUDE the other three names! No! The whole point in listing them this way was to show that all these families would be present AT THE SAME TIME! I.e, AFTER the Resurrection!

Brother, you need to quit kicking against the ox-goads and just accept the Scriptures! God will resurrect His people and give them another chance to see Him directly without the interference of Christian opinion and misdirection and accept Him as their Messiah. If they can see Him before He comes, all the better, but ALL Israel shall be rescued!